#263: Tips for Marketing Your Book in a God-Honoring Way by Alisa Keeton

Welcome to Kingdom Writers, where we help equip and empower Christian writers of all genres to share your unique gifts with the world. We're your hosts, C.J. and Shelley Hitz.

This podcast is filled with spiritual encouragement as well as prayers to help you overcome the resistance you face as a writer. Your story matters.

Welcome to this episode of Kingdom Writers. My name is Shelly Hitz. I'm here with my husband, C.J.

Hey, guys.

And today we have a very special guest, Alisa Keaton. Welcome, Alisa.

Thank you, Shelley. C.J. i'm super excited to be here.

It's going to be fun. We have your official bio and we'll put that in the podcast description for everyone. But the unofficial just introduction that I wanted to share is I got introduced to Elisa about four and a half years ago through her podcast called Revelation Wellness. And actually it's the ministry's podcast, but she's the primary voice on that podcast. And first of all, I want to say go subscribe. So make sure that you're subscribed to the Revelation Wellness podcast. It's been such a huge blessing having Alisa and some of her team in my ears for the last four and a half years. So much that God has done. And it's just God working through her, right? Just a surrendered vessel. And she really took a step, a brave step, of integrating the gospel with fitness, which hadn't really been done before, and now has over 2000 instructors all over the world through Revelation Wellness. And guess what? I'm going to be one.

I had to pull out the bell for that.

I know I signed up. So I'm starting February 2021. So if you have any interest in doing anything with fitness or even just being discipled, check it out. They're starting the next platoon. They call them platoons soon. But she's over 2,000 instructors and, you know, they have thousands. I think what you had over 10,000 people join your sugar fast this time. And yeah, you know, it's just reaching so many people with this message. But one thing about Elisa that I really appreciate is her vulnerability. And she, like me, you know, feels, you know, free to share at times what God tells her to share, you know, but also she just markets the things that God has given her to do in such a God honoring way. It doesn't ever feel sleazy or spammy or weird. It's just like, ooh, that is something I need and I want to sign up for it or it's going to help me. And so I wanted Elisa to come on and share. She has several books of her own. Like, how many do you have now?

Well, I have two published books, but a lot of the challenges and things we have are, you know, ebooks, things online, so that's all. I can't. I've lost count.

Yeah.

Things have created.

She's written a lot of words.

Yes, a lot of words. I'm like, dependent on the Lord. Is there anything else to say, Lord? There's. It feels like I've said it, but it just goes back to you. You know, there's a need. And when you connect to need, you just. You can't stop. You keep saying it. Even if you're saying the same thing over and over. You know there's a need and you want it to get met.

Yeah. And so I wanted Elisa to come on and talk about marketing in a God honoring way. But before we really dive into that, share a little bit about the message that God has given you to share for the people who are just learning about you for the first time.

Yeah, it's an interesting message. I have been drawn to fitness most of my life, so it is interesting. I kind of don't know my life without moving my body. I was very active as a child. I was a tomboy, climbing trees, riding dirt bikes. I mean, my mom could not get me in a pink dress for very, like, forget it, forget it. I couldn't move in that thing. And so movement was a big part of just me being who I was. And at the time that I was born, when the Bible says that God chose, chooses the times and the place for people to be born, he definitely does his. Around the age of 14, I take an aerobics class. This was when aerobics was aerobics. Jane Fonda, Richard Simmons, things like that were going on. We're just, I mean, at that point, I think people are just realizing that we feel better. I get the endorphin rush kind of thing. And I took to it like a duck to water. And then I just started doing more and more. It felt like natural to me. My body responded. The Lord definitely gave me a body that would respond to fitness well. So I got attention for it. Then it went kind of off the rails a little bit. It became my identity. It became something because I was known for it. I thought my body could save me. I thought money could save me. I thought a good career could save me. If I had enough clients to train and all that, that it would be satisfying. Turns out it wasn't. But I still loved helping people with the gift of fitness, with this, this changing bot like changing. I love the thought that things can change, that where however they are, where they are, we can drop a pin on it and get honest about it, but it's never stuck. That gets me to write the next thing like, is there someone out there who still feels like, forget it, it's not worth it, it's too heavy. So I started, became a personal trainer and wanted to really walk intimately with people. Teaching group fitness in groups are always fun, but I have the intimate place of walking with people in their personal struggles with their body or health, whatever it was. But I saw two patterns emerge with most all my clients. All my clients, they would either obsess about the goal and become super restrictive and never satisfied. They'd always want the next thing to be fixed and the next flaw and the next. And so it's like you were trying to constantly keep them excited and energized about change or getting the change they want, or you had the neglectors, people that would try a little bit, buy the packages, buy the clothes, like big investments and then slowly stop coming.

Stop believing. And that those were pain. They were both painful for me, but the ones, the people that just never could get the momentum going. So that was when Jesus entered my life because I was broken, I was in need. As I was saying, all those other things were falling down around me. They weren't satisfying. So then Jesus comes into my life. And we know that when Jesus comes in and you really let him in because you really need him, which I did. He moves the furniture around. He starts moving things around inside your heart and where you think what things are. You start seeing life through a different lens. It did for me. It was harder to see my clients the way I once did. And then he just revealed to me more and more, this is a spiritual issue. This is not. There's some physical things that we can look to. There's evidence of something, but the root is spiritual. And I started to go after that message, reading the scriptures, looking through the word and constantly seeing, this is the God. He is the God of the great exchange. He is the God. If you're dead, come alive, you're lost, I will find you. You feel fat, I'll make you light, like whatever it is, you're ashamed, I'll give you belonging and joy. So I started pursuing that more and more. And that's where revelation, wellness, or the concept of it was birthed. I wonder if people could use more of this. And it's still fascinating to Me, because people, it's a new concept still. It's been around for a while. I think people have seen almost mockery of fitness and Jesus and like the whole thing. People often send me funny videos. I'm like one of the reasons why I never wanted to go into this field to market. It's hard to market, like it's been done. So cheesy. And well, I didn't want to do it and I kind of kept pushing it away, but the Lord kept showing it to me and showing it, do you want to do this? And at one point he said to me, I'm going to do this. Or I had a sense that he is going to do this and if I don't say yes, that's okay. He's going to move on to someone else. I share that with you, shelly, because now 10 years into the ministry of doing this and just proclaiming the gospel, using fitness as our tool, I receive emails maybe once a year. At the very beginning I received more of them. But now that we're more known, just saying, the Lord gave me this idea 20 years ago, but I didn't do anything with it. And now I see what you're doing. So it's bittersweet for them because they go, wow, it actually did something. It took a while though. Let's be clear. Nobody got this message at the very beginning. I just had to believe in it and the Lord had to strip me of everything. Lots of things. Lots of things came when I said yes to this call to try and get me to turn back. But because no unbelief made her waver concerning the promises of God, she grew strong in her faith and she gave glory to God and he delivered on his promises. So yeah, that's what we do. We use fitness as a tool to help people live for more than just a calorie count or body burn. Those are all good. We are not against those. But we all say, let's go higher, let's go deeper. Because it is the eternal things that are going to matter and last, not the body.

Yeah. Now, I think your first published book was Wellness Revelation and I was on your book launch team and I have the book in the other room.

I remember that. That's awesome.

Yes. And that's just gone far and wide because now your instructors use that as well to lead groups and all of that. But you know, just talking about marketing your book or your product in a God honoring way. Has marketing and copywriting come naturally to you? Because you just seem like. It just seems like it comes natural. Is it thing for you or has you. Have you really had to work on this with the Lord?

It's funny, I, it came naturally to me. It comes naturally to me. I be in the sense that really feel passionate about something. Right. That's like Marketing 101. You can't, you cannot promote, get behind something unless you really feel like this is gonna help someone. So when I, it became, I would never thought I am where I am. I don't have a business degree. I never took a copy sales writing course. I didn't. None of it. I just had the Internet and a passion and a message. And my, my staff members, people, friends at the very beginning started calling me the carny for Christ. Like, you're carny Elisa. You are. And it's true. Step right up, step right up. Win something, win your freedom. Like I really do have that in me of when I believe that something can be gained, I won't give up. I'll say, come on, come and try this. But it's so great when it's kingdom. Like it's so great because you know that's not going to return void. I could sell you a shake or do some other things. But if it's the big if, the point is the shake, that thing is there's another shake coming, right? But if the point is God, that's gonna last and then everything else can kind of be a tool or something to help use point people to the Lord. So if I, because I believe in it, because I myself had wished somebody had told me, then I can just, just go. But to be clear, I have no training. My first book, Shelly, that book, the Wellness Revelation. When the Lord told me to write which I looked at him and said, you do know I'm the girl who cheated in high school English, right? Remember those Cliff Notes? That I would. I've never read a book. You remember that too. Like I told him all the reasons you got the wrong girl. But again that you got to get the message out, get it out there. That phrase, go early and go ugly. Yeah, just go do it. My first, that wellness Revelation, I tell you is about 120 pages of a run on sentence. Like no periods, no comments. I didn't know. T H E N T H A N. Who cares. Weight loss. Weight lose. I don't know. It was. I just dumped it and it, it still helped people. Although I did have people come alongside me. Like, can I help you with your grammar a little bit? Like, yes, you may please help me. So but ultimately the message comes from my heart of the words that I speak that then get captured on paper, which I would encourage that for people. Speak out loud, just talk. Say what you think you would say to someone, turn on your microphone, let it record your voice, then go back and pull some of those nuggets out, and then you can elaborate on the copy as far as writing goes. But I feel like for me, that was. That was tapping into what comes natural to me and then what doesn't come natural to me.

Yeah.

Well, Lisa, you share about some new programs and books in a way that doesn't feel forced or spammy. Can you share any practical tips that you've learned about marketing a God honored way?

Yeah, I just recently did a series on the podcast called do the Work. Did you listen to those, Shelley? And yeah, I would encourage people. I don't know the episode numbers, but they're pretty recent. You can just search Revelation Wellness, do the work.

I think those are foundational things of knowing who are you called to? Who is it? Who is it? See them? Holy Spirit, would you show me who they are? What are they doing right now? Those types of things help to make this real.

In that way you find your voice because, well, it's not even really your voice. It's the Holy Spirit inside you, persuading them, trying to get out of you what it is to call them into the thing that you feel called to offer. So.

That'S big for me.

Yeah. And I will link to that episode. I'll find it and I'll link to it. And I actually thought, when I was listening, especially that third one where you're talking about, like your target audience, because we talk about that a lot with our authors is. But I did feel like you were giving like a marketing class for free on the podcast.

I think I even said that I'm like, some of you need to go home, sit down, take some notes, because I'm Giving you marketing 101.

Yeah. I was running and so I'd stop and I take some notes. I would pray and ask the Lord and he'd give me some ideas and I'd take some notes in my notes app. And so I'll link to that because it is a really good place to start. Is who your audience is.

Yeah, who your audience is. And then the problem. Right, like the problem, my life. And it goes back to what you said, Shelley, before we got going. We know that we feel problem, like there's a problem. But then how do we reshape people to see an impossibility. And that's kingdom. So, yes, we can drop the pin on a problem, what feels like a problem. So always knowing and the problem. And Jenny Allen, the founder of if Gathering. I remember interviewing her a few years back and just, you know, to that point, she wasn't even nearly where they were today in terms of her reach. But her greatest advice to me, it still sticks with me in terms of growth or, you know, just doing what God's called you to do, is she said, stay connected to suffering. And I thought, dang, isn't that true? Because we sometimes want the promotion or the thing to get big so that we can maybe get ourselves out of our own pain of whether it's financial or the tension of is anyone going to get this? Whatever it is that rolls around in us as our desires. But ultimately we're here, love God and love others and to reach out for people that are suffering and having pain. So stay connected to pain is a big thing. I even realize right now, I feel like that's hard in Covid. Right.

Right.

We're being separated. I can feel myself. I don't know if you've heard this with other writers, but they're having a hard time feeling creative or feeling energized or so it's a hard, hard thing.

So a lot of people say that. So, yeah, not alone.

It's true. Because we're meant to be connected. And where we see suffering, we bring solutions. We can bring solutions to that. And sometimes it's easier for me to see someone else's. That someone else suffering with what I'm suffering with, but I can find the words for them more than I can for me.

Stay connected to that. For sure.

That's good. And so, like, when you're releasing a new book, like you're writing a new book right now, you know, as, you know, are getting to the process of going to be releasing it. Is there a certain process that you go through with the Lord or on your, you know, you know, marketing plan or do you do anything like, specific as you're, you know, with your team, even with Revelation Wellness, as you're getting ready to release a new challenge or. Yeah, things like that.

Yeah, for sure. I think the thing I'm learning the most, that I have learned the most. When I first started the ministry, I was very much. I threw a lot of audibles. Well, I think we're gonna do this. And we would just do it and then kind of look, the Lord was so kind because he just knew my personality. And then he would backload it, like, help it get some structure that it needed. Now I'm a lot more thoughtful. I take the time to think about. And first, I seek the Lord in what's the. What's the pain point? What's the message on your heart? I want to write your message because those things will do something not my own. So a lot of it always begins with seeking the Lord, paying attention, staying connected to suffering.

And then we begin to map out. Once we pray about. I'll bring it to a team now and pray about. What do you guys think about that? Yeah, that sounds good. And then we do come up with a plan of, okay, we store. I don't know if you've heard of Donald Miller Story brand. We do like his structure of problem. Take the person on the journey, they're the hero. You know, you're a guide kind of a thing. So we work through that to help us figure out what language we're gonna say, prove our authority, and why we can say this. So we do that in terms of challenges and marketing material, we pull that apart. But the same can be said for writing a book. It is so crazy writing a book. You've got. This is with my first book, the Wellness Revelation. I like I told you, I just spewed that thing out. It was a hot mess. And it took 10 years from the spewing of the hot mess for the refining and the refining and the refining to where it got picked up by Tyndale, and then even Tyndale took it and had to make a little more. We had to rearrange it to make more sense. So if what doesn't come naturally to me is pragmatic, let me be logical. I'm very much just say it, get it out there, and then later you can clean it up. So now I've learned to do that. But I do know that you have to make sense for people to take them on the journey. So having a book outline, how does this connect to that? That's what I'm learning to embrace more right now.

Yeah. Now when I see you, especially with Revelation Wellness, when you guys have something new, I, like, see it everywhere, you know, so it's like Facebook, Instagram, Email, you know, Facebook Lives, Instagram Live, you know, it's like, there's things going on all the time, like, and I follow you guys, like, religiously. So I see in podcasts, you know, I see in here everywhere. But some people are shy about talking about their book or product. Too often. They feel like, oh, I just Don't. I don't want to be pushy. Like, what do you have to say to that person that feels like, I just don't want to keep talking about my book?

Yeah. Well, for one, it goes back to, did the Lord give you that message?

Mm.

Then you have to. Then you stewarding that message is part of your obedience. We start to worry about other people. What are they gonna think? Are they gonna think I'm spamming them? Are they gonna think we at some point have to be like, it's okay if they receive it as spam and they want to stop following, that's okay. We're not going to hold everyone all the time. Plus, everyone needs to get to that. That place of realizing you're not going to be for everyone, you're not for everyone. And sometimes you're just for a season for someone. But if the Lord gave you the message, then you continue to be in due diligence, like, you know, sharing it. Now, I would encourage people, one of the things we've been loving and enjoying and some people are still adjusting to is finding other voices of authority that step in and share it too. So that I'm not saying it all the time because it does get tiring if you're the one saying it again and again. So be kind to yourself. For those of you that are solo entrepreneurs, you are the only voice I would encourage. Just make ask yourself to check your motives. Are you afraid of what other people are thinking? You're already lost. If you're, if you're afraid that they're gonna think that I'm too much, blah, blah, blah. Or how about this? Are you sharing because you need to get your sales up? Because you need something and the bill. Like, are you sharing out of fear, period? If you're sharing out of fear, fear of what people will think, fear that you won't make the money, blah, blah, blah. Probably best not to share. I mean, you can still share, but it will build. How you build it is how you live it, so. Or how you lose it. That's a weight loss scenario. How you lose it is how you live it.

So just check your motives all the time. And I always come back to try. Like, I get excited like the sugar fast. We just launched. You couldn't shut me up. You couldn't shut me up. I don't care. And I lost followers. I lost people. I'm fine. That's great. That's okay. You were. That's alright. I was being so obedient to the Lord, like for such A time as this, we have to fast. Like I can the hairs on my head stand up with everything going on in the country. It's biblical. What have we done? Not doing this. So anyways, I don't worry about that. I'm true to myself. I'm true to what the Lord said. Everything else, you've got to let it fall off of you.

Well, if you think about it, Elisa, for, you know, decades now, the sugar industry sure isn't backing off. They don't care about being spammy. So you see commercial.

So what you're doing is what we're all doing. Anytime we speak against sugar is really a small drop in the bucket compared to what the industry is picture. But it's still, you know, that's 10,000 people that signed up for your challenge, which is awesome.

Amazing.

How do you allow God to actually lead you in your marketing? Like if God were that sort of CEO, how is he leading you?

The way you market, it always comes back to heart and culture. For us, our marketing is never to grow money. I don't care. I truly. That will always be the. Not always, but for many it will be the rub. It will constantly rub you because you're selling something and you are making some money. And the Lord does reward right and workman's due his wages. But. And when you start to get caught up in the money, in the numbers. I mean, I'm a personal trainer girl who learned a long time ago numbers, they can lie. They don't always seem what they are because you can be so much percent body fat on the inside, weigh a certain weight. Like you can't trust the numbers too much. But you can trust your heart. You can trust if your heart is with the Lord and listening and walking with him. I'll tell you, we're actually right now, funny you should ask that that question. Right now we're in the process of hiring a chief marketing officer. It's. It's an executive job. It's well salary. More salary than I ever thought I would ever be able to pay someone. And because it's a good salary, I mean it is marketplace salary for a chief marketing officer for a nonprofit. We have to make a decision. Okay, we have this money that we can go and find someone who probably has all the skills in the world could have done it can help us get them Facebook ads, Google, whatever knows marketing and knows all the tricks. But if they do not have the culture of the kingdom in them like it is people, we are going to make God famous. Is it exciting? Who's also willing to go. It is. They've got to be able to hold numbers loosely too, and not get messed by the numbers. But knowing that growth is what God is about. But there are pruning seasons. We know there will be seasons of setback or hold on before some more growth can come. So to me, a good marketer with marketing mindset understands that it isn't always going to be growth and growth and growth and growth and growth and growth. Because you know what, you can grow fat, not grow lean. I don't want to just grow numbers for numbers sake. To say this is how many numbers we have, that's that they're lazy. I don't want that. Give us the right amount of growth, the right time that's active and strong. And if we have to have seasons of rest, like the body, you got to rest some seasons, take a moment, reset, recalibrate, get the vision. Ok, go again. So that is important to me. Like that is who I am hiring. I need that person to see it as the cmo. And yeah, at this point, we're looking probably more at hiring within and training someone, giving them some more skills. Because I would rather protect the culture of our king of the kingdom inside this ministry then bring in outside. You know, I got it. I know the plan for you. Like that's kind of what the Lord has, is a plan for us. So, you know, anyways, I think. Yeah, but it's personal for some people. You might go there. I really thought we were gonna go outside. Like, okay, we have all this money. We can find someone great. But the more I sat with the Lord on it because I don't want to make a mistake, you guys. You just gotta know that wherever you are, if it is honoring the Lord, you didn't get yourself there. You just didn't do it. You yourself didn't get yourself there. He got you, so he got you there. Unless the Lord builds it, the laborers build in vain. So I'm so, so keenly aware of that that I don't want to mess it up. I stay humble. I stay listening. And that means some seasons go hard and some seasons pull back.

Yeah. Lately, the Lord's been just reminding me, Shelly, big and fast isn't always better. And, you know, he had his 12 disciples and you know, and then, you know, there's been explosive growth, but in the beginning, you know, it's just pouring into those 12. And I think even revelation wellness was that way. You know, you started with your small group of few.

I did, yeah.

And so one of the things that I love about you and Revelation Wellness is you're always, you know, even in your free videos and everything, you're always like having calls to action to share something or, oh, if you share, you know, you might win a prize package or, you know, there's always calls to action. And so I really recommend all of you that are listening, go follow Revelation Wellness on Facebook, Instagram, follow Elisa on Instagram. You know, pay attention to how they're doing their calls to action because there's so much that you can learn just by watching. Right.

And just by seeing, but always inviting. Oh, it's an invitation. You always say it's an invitation. It's a get to, not a have to. And always providing that. But as we get ready to kind of close, what is something that you feel like maybe you have on your heart that you just want to share to the kingdom writers that are listening right now?

Yeah, I would say what's most present on my heart right now is this concept of presence.

That seek first him, his kingdom, his presence. I pray that you get so enthralled with him, like it's real for you. I think this is where it can get stale and boring and like I'm doing it again very rote. When God just seems like this, these commands on the page, some rules and hoops to jump through or some type of even a safety net sometimes I think, and it's his presence in his presence, fullness of joy and life. I think people that really can help others, they're filled with joy. And people that have a lot of joy are unoffendable. They're not going to be worried if someone bought or didn't bought or take a bite on it or didn't they. They're just so like the presence of God fills them in a way that it is their get to. To just love people. So I would, I would say in this time we're in especially Covid right now and all the weird things going on, seek his presence and what does that mean to you? And I think you got to sit down and ask yourself. People like, kind of you say, success leaves clues, presence leaves clues. Where did I feel a sense of satisfaction and joy? For some of you, it's just go sit outside, get away from your computer and spit your face in the sun and seek his presence, tangible places. For some of us, it's moving our body. We go for a run. Like, man, I felt that empowerment. I felt that strength. I felt that clarity.

Totally. Some of that's Biochemical, because the Lord has set us up that when we move, the molecules bounce and new hormones that are for you arise.

So wherever that is that you feel his presence. I love his words. I'm constantly, every day in His Word, but I have found in His Word is what leads me to the knowledge of Him. But it is in coming to him, as if he really wants to have this dialogue with me that I find his presence. It's. It fills me. Elisa Keaton, his daughter, A unique way that it won't fill Shelley or cj. So seek his presence. I just felt, you guys. There are so many mysteries the Lord wants to unfold to us. There are hidden mysteries that we have yet to bring to the earth. One, maybe because we've never asked, but two, because we've been so busy maybe memorizing things and trying to pay the bills and stay afloat that we've missed him in the presence. So seek him in His Word, find the knowledge of him, but then find your places that you can activate into that presence.

Yeah. And it was, I think, 2017, you had an episode, a podcast episode, that really impacted me about just detoxing from social media and all of that. And that has really created room for God's presence. And, yes, Revelation Wellness has a free training on social media detox or whatever. I can't remember what you called it, but phone detox.

7 days of phone freedom.

Phone freedom. So if, you know that's one practical way to create more space for presence and for creativity.

Oh, gosh, yes.

As creatives, if we're always constantly bombarded, you know, we don't have that space for things just to well up. But as we close, can you just pray for Kingdom writers and with just the authority God has given you? Just pray and bless and we'll just close in that way.

Sure, we'd love to. So I'm going to ask if everyone would take a breath, a big intentional breath.

Let it rise through your rib cage and exhale and fall.

Yeah. Because this is God's presence with you, that God is with you.

So just become aware of that truth that God is with you right now.

Lord, we thank you that you give us peace and wisdom.

And belonging, and you call us the beloved, that you're pleased with us, Lord, as we seek you. So, Lord, I pray for the listeners here, for every person who's sitting heavy and still in this place right now, that you would come and inspire them with your love.

Not for what they can do for you, God, but because of what you've done. And that would be a message that lights us on fire to go and tell the world.

Renew a joy to the salvation that we have.

Inspire us with the creativity of heaven.

Give us sure footed feet that everywhere we put our feet, Lord, we take a step. We have authority and we bring resources.

God, reveal your mysteries to us and things that we need that only we can bring on the earth through our voices and through our skills and talents that you've placed inside of us. Lord God, we repent of selfish gain and vain conceit.

We thank you that your presence brings refreshment and joy. And you never shame us. You never put us to open shame, Lord. You just don't. So we thank you for that. We pray now that all the perfect love of heaven would fill each person. Chase out fear, put them on their feet to go about their kingdom mission. Upgrade it, God. Double fold upgrade in Jesus name. Amen.

Amen. Well, thank you so much, Elisa, and those of you listening, go subscribe to the Revelation Wellness podcast. Check out their website, revelation wellness.org they have tons of free resources and I'm not sure if we fully covered it, but they're nonprofit, so anytime you buy something from them or you donate, it's a tax deductible donation. And so it's a great way to just get moving. Check out her book, Wellness Revelation. And thank you so much again, Elisa, for being here.

Thank you, Shelly. Cj, thank you. Thank you.

It's an honor. Thank you. All right, bye bye.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Kingdom Writers. We believe that you, as a Christian writer, have a specific role to play in the Kingdom of Heaven to impact lives for eternity.

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