Connecting with CFOs to Achieve Goals

Welcome to the Agent Leader podcast. My name is Brent Kelly. I am your host. Thanks so much for joining me on this episode. I have a fantastic guest with me today. Not only is she a wealth of information in the insurance industry, but I also the pleasure of being a teammate with this wonderful individual. Carrie Glennon, our senior consultant at the Sipkins Group, joins us today to talk about a super important topic. Carrie, before we get into that topic, welcome to the Agent Leader podcast.

Thank you, Brent. Super excited to be here.

Awesome. Well, before we get into the content, I've got to do a quick teaser. As always, I've done this on other episodes. If you are interested in learning more about what we all do and what things that Carrie and I talk about, go to sitkins.com in fact, we have a transformation scorecard that you can go check out. Go to sitkins.comscorecard. it's a super easy way for you and your agency to see where you are today and get a better grasp on where is it you really want to go. Identifying some of the barriers and challenge. So go to sitkins.comscorecard so with that, let's get into the meat of what we're going to be talking about today. And to set this up, you know, Carrie and I have many conversations because we work together and training programs and coaching calls and different discussions that's going on the industry. And I was asking Carrie, I'm like, you know, Carrie, what's, what's something out there that I think a lot of agencies and producers may be missing? And she said, brent, there's oftentimes a missing person of a company that really doesn't. We don't, we don't get in deep with this person or we don't have the right conversations with this person. And man, does it make a big difference. And who is that person? Well, it's the cfo, right, Carrie, the chief financial officer. And so we're going to unpack this today and I've got a number of questions I want to ask Carrie about her philosophies and what she's learned and of course the impact of this. But I'm going to start out with about as basic as basic gets. Why is this a big deal, Gary? Like why. Why would it matter that a agency and certainly a producer needs to have a better relationship with this CFO role?

Great question to start with. It is a big one. So when you think about the role of a cfo, I think there is this old stereotype of, you know, a stodgy person. In the corner office, sitting back, counting their beans. Right. And frankly, nothing could be further from the truth. Today, effective CFOs are incredibly strategic in an organization. In fact, a good CFO is going to be somebody who recognizes the fact that they have financial targets that the organization has to attain and budgets they have to stay within while attaining them. So CFOs will have. They'll have a good strategic feel or an idea, and they will help influence their peers, their colleagues, on decisions that will help that particular division achieve goals, staying within those budgets. So, for example, if it's an. An HR person and there is some sort of initiative to take place with their, with their workforce, a CFO is a good person to weigh in with the HR person on that. A sales leader, A good CFO is going to know what are the strategic initiatives from the sales team and have a conversation with the chief revenue officer, chief sales office about which direction to go again, because they understand the goals financially and the budgets that they're trying to stay within. So to be able to be connected to the person who is the ultimate decision maker, who has the biggest fiduciary responsibility to the success of an organization, that's the person that we, as producers out in the marketplace should be seeking to get in with, to build relationships with, ask the right questions.

Yeah, as you were saying that, Carrie, I, I had a mentor years ago. You know, leadership is influence. Nothing more, nothing less. Right. And that's been said many times. And, and I think that's what I'm hearing. Like, you know, that CFO role. And of course it varies. It's funny you said that. Like, you know, even for me, I'm like, oh, cfo, is that that bean counter?

Right.

And they're counting money. But how important and involved they are in strategy and influence and be an advocate in some of these things. And obviously, if I'm hearing you right, Carrie, if we don't potentially have their eye in their ear, we may have a big problem on our hands.

That's true. Yeah, agreed.

So here's something. Because you mentioned bean counter, we're kind of both laughing about it, and maybe this isn't true for everybody, but I think sometimes, I think a controller and a CFO sometimes get misconstrued, and maybe we don't understand that. So maybe unpack the differences.

Yes. No, I think that's a really good point. I've worked with producers who've said, yeah, I'm, I'm, I got in at this organization and I have an appointment with a Controller, and I'm not saying that that's not a good person to speak with. Generally a controller will report up to a higher financial decision maker or influencer within the organization. And I think the easiest way to describe it is to give an example. So when you're speaking with or a producer is out in the field and speaking with a controller, a controller's rule is much more tactical than strategic. And you probably would hear a question like this coming from a controller. How much can we save in the next year if we raise our deductible? Okay, so raising a deductible is a tactic that can be used in order to have an immediate impact on. Okay, maybe we don't pay as much in premium because we have a large deductible. We're taking on some of that risk ourselves. But is that a long term strategic solution for, for a benefits plan or you know, your, your, your overall risk and GL policy. Right. Things of that nature? No, but if you're speaking with a cfo, a CFO might ask a question that's more around, okay, we recognize that our premiums are going up every year. Is there, is there a conversation we can have around a more premium creative funding mechanism for, for our, our program? If, if they're looking long term and they have say liquid cash that they can spend, they might even be able to have a conversation about captives. Right. Maybe it's self funding on the, on the benefit side, again, much more strategic long term type questions you might hear from a CFO where a controller is going to be more tactical day to day. How do I save money now? Right. The, the, the term controller is there for a reason. They're controlling those dollars. So different conversations, different questions again leading you to why the better relationship. If you're going to start somewhere in a company, start at the CFO if you can.

All right, hold that thought because I want to come back to that and go a level. Okay, just one comment on this, but I thought was great what you said there and I heard this this week. Maybe it's one of our programs or something that I was doing with an agency. But it's like, you know, how do people look at risk management or the insurance program or the benefits package? Is it just simply an expense or is it an investment? Right. And again, you can look at it in different ways. But you know, what I'm hearing from you is obviously a true CFO that strategic sees the bigger picture and how this all plays in where a controller is going to be. Exactly right. How do I control these costs? Right. And everything is dollar value. So that's a huge difference. And again, I think it can be easy to overlap or go, oh, that's kind of the same person or the same role and Right. It's not, it's not. So. All right, I said to come back to that thought. So it's interesting because I think, I know you've experienced this, I see this as well, that oftentimes producers tend to start or like to start, which is okay with risk manager, or maybe it's the HR manager. But I think there's a, a bigger play here with the cfo, an opportunity. So share my thoughts on why it's might be a better option to go there first.

Yeah, again I think your HR manager, your risk manager, vital roles in an organization, I think much more tactical day to day implementation and the carry out of tasks and initiatives. So if you happen to get in at that level, at that mid management level, it's not necessarily a bad thing. They are decision influencers when it comes to the things that we, as in, you know, insurance producers and agents are bringing to the table. However, I've seen this happen before. You find somebody who's sort of at the end of their career, maybe they're on their glide path to retirement. It's like, do I really want to think about implementing new program, bringing in a new carrier, changing things? It's, that's a heavy lift for me. I'm not really incented to do that. And so you get stymied. And if you're in at that level and you try and do the endo, right, go around them and go to the cfo, you might get a CFO who you know, picks up the phone and says hey, I think you should really talk to this person. And it's like, huh, oh, the person I blew off. Pretty tough to get their buy in now so you can sort of shoot yourself in the foot. But secondly, they may, again, they may not be seeing that big picture and they may be, you know, shying away from a solution that's really good for the organization because they, they see it as a heavy lift for their team or themselves versus wow, this is really good. It's worth that extra effort. Let's do this for the financial health of the company as well as for our employees.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's super helpful, I'm sure for the listeners out there. You think about this. I know I find it fascinating and again, part of it is like the path of least Resistance works for a while until you get through. And like I said, I like the endo come back around. It's like, oh, now you want to talk to me, right?

Yeah.

Cognizant of again, the importance of that role and that communication from the beginning. Right. And really understanding how that decision is made and who's influential and of course, don't hurt their feelings, right?

Absolutely. At the end of the day, we're all human.

We want. You don't like me. Oh, you don't like me. No, it's important. So here's what I want to do. I'll take this. I want to take it a step further because one thing we talk all the time with our producers and teams about, and there's demographics and there's psychographics and both are important, right. Demographics, occasion, size, all these kind. We got to know these things. Psychographics is to me is so fascinating because it's how do people think and maybe even different, what do they think about? So I think this to me is like, you're always trying to build rapport and credibility and of course, relationships with people. It's. It's a relationship business. Well, same is true with the cfo. So maybe you can help unpack for some of those that aren't as CFO fluent on what do they think about, what do they listen to, what do they like? Yeah, give me the cfo.

All right. So I think there's two sides to this really. First, as a producer going out, trying to open the door at the CFO level we talked about, sometimes it's easier to get in, maybe at a mid management level. So I'm going to wave the flag here for referrals. Right. Always ask for those referrals. Here's the referral banner. I'm waving it now. If you can ever get the introduction, that's obviously the way to go because obviously C Suite is tougher to get into. So using your network and your influence to get in, that's definitely the easiest way. When you are thinking about the, the connection that you want to make with a cfo, I think there's a few things. One, just like you said, what do they think of them as a whole human, I guess the whole being. Right. What do they think about? Right. What do they think about? What do they care about in their heart and what do they do? Think of their hands, head, heart, hands, think, feel, do. And I think by thinking about them from that perspective, it helps a producer in putting together, just like you said, not just the demographic but the psychographics of this person and then to prepare for a conversation with somebody like that. I'm a huge fan of making sure you know what CFOs are consuming in the way of content, business data. I currently and have for years subscribed to CFO.com if you've spent any time with me, you've probably heard me bring it up in sessions, in sales meetings with producers. And here's why I'm a fan. It's unbelievably current. It's a free subscription online and right at the top of the nav bar, when you go to cfo.com there's actually a tab for risk management and there is a tab for, for human capital. So whether you're in the property casualty side of the business or in the employee benefit side of the business, there is content that's current, it's new, it's relevant. And how better to prepare yourself than to consume some of the information that CFOs are prior to a conversation with them? It will help you understand some of the things they think about these days, some of the things they do that they're responsible for, and then of course the things that, that they care about because these are people who are writing content for those individual. Additionally, by having a subscription to it, just being in the know, you might come across an article and go, oh my gosh, that reminds me of. And you can definitely share an article. It's a nice touch point that you can send out and reach out to a current client CFO or perhaps a potential client prospect.

Yeah, there's so much, and I love the head, the heart, the hand, which really could be, certainly can be used anywhere. But I mean as a perspective to think about that with the cfo. And I love that. What do they think about? What do they care about? What do they do? And you know, I think there's, there's a lot to this and you may kind of already answer the question about, you know, connection. It's about connection. But what's. And maybe I don't know, that's a piece of advice per se. But if, you know, I've got a producer listening to this podcast.

Yeah.

And, or I am a producer listening to this podcast and you say, gosh, Carrie, seems like you know, your stuff here seems like you've worked with some producers, you've connected with CFOs. What can I do? What should I do? What are some steps I could, I could take that would make sense for me to navigate these conversations, these connections Absolutely.

So I think that many producers overlook the fact that your number one person who can help you improve your skills in this area of speaking and connecting with CFOs, they sit in your office right now and that is your cfo. We all have a cfo. And you know, I've worked with agencies who have set something up and maybe it's once a month, maybe it's twice a month. Friday afternoon and it's brown bag it day. Right. Everybody brown bags their lunch and you go into a boardroom and the CFO is there and the CFO is there to listen. Bounce things off of me, provide feedback. I probably wouldn't buy from you because. Right. Get good feedback or. I really appreciated this question. It would have been even better if you'd asked me X, Y or Z. Give, give some examples of things that you need to talk about and ask them some questions. I've had. You know, people say, yeah, my, my CFO said, you know, you didn't touch on this one area that's so important to me. And oh my gosh, how, how could I have not thought of that? I will tell you this at, at our agency before we sold, we used to jokingly say that our CFO had the best BS sniffer in the agency and we invited her to do these types of sessions specifically. And she would be very honest and candid. And I, I want to remind listeners if you are a producer or you manage producers, remember low risk practice is done in an environment that's safe. It's safe within the 4WAL organization even when you bring in your CFO because everybody who's at the table is, is gunning for you to be the best you can be. Everybody wants you to get better. So you're, at some point you're going to do something foolish or trip over your tongue or whatever it's going to be, do it in the safety of the confines of your office versus out in the field where you can't, you can't retract what came out of your mouth. It's out there. So I would say definitely use that resource and you know, maybe don't have him or her brown bag it. Maybe you know, bribe them with a lunch, go buy their sandwich for them and get it, get them to come to your boardroom and, and share and, and pick their brain. I think that you have somebody right at your fingertips who's going to help you.

You mean they're not just waiting there just to go something to do to brown bag lunch on a Friday? Yeah. All joking aside, and this isn't 100% true, but I think it's. It's a pretty high percentage. And again, I. Maybe there's studies on it, but if you would go to people in an organization who are typically above you, so to speak, from a leadership position or even whatever peers. Right. That you work with. And if I would say to you, Carrie, one of the things I really want to do is I want to improve my skill and my craft in this particular area. Right. Term. I. We use that all the time. I want to become that best version possible. What does that look like? Right. I would really appreciate if I could spend some time with you to kind of learn, understand your role, your position, how you think, what matters to you, things that you do, things you're concerned about, so I can have better conversations and relationship with those in the marketplace. Like, if I came to you with that, like, it's really hard to be like, no, peon, go away. Don't waste my time. Would you. I mean, first of all, is that. Would you agree with that?

What a compliment. I mean, to say to somebody, I value your opinion and want to learn from you. That's a huge compliment. And at the end of the day, I would say, generally speaking, humans want to help one another. Especially when you're on the same team or you like somebody, you know, you want to. You want to help. So, yes, it's a big compliment. And I don't see somebody saying, joe, go away right now. I don't think that would happen. I mean, somebody might have a busy schedule and say, I can't do it this week, but can we schedule it for. Of course, that's. That's to be expected, but I can't imagine somebody being completely dismissed now.

Yeah, I mean, that's. That's been my experience in all kinds of stuff. Right. And of course, if you come with authenticity and you really mean it and all this, like, yes, I just. It's one of those where, quite frankly, not a lot of people do those things. So it's pretty rare that those people get those questions. Right. But when they do, it's like, oh, wow, someone here who really wants it. It's like when you, you know, if you're a teacher or whatever, you're like, wow, there's a few. It's like, I always think about, do you get flooded with after hours, you know, questions in your class? Like, no. In fact, like, if one person shows up to ask more questions, I'm shocked. Right. And so, you know, and so you Think about this is that they really don't get that stuff very often. It is a compliment and more importantly, it's just, it's part of your growth and development. And this is bigger picture. We've talked about this podcast before. I've done it. Like the easy thing to do, the super easy thing to do is to show up, throw up and blow up. The term we say all the time. You just go somewhere, you show up, you haven't really practice prepared. You throw up all over people by saying stupid stuff and then you go home and get mad.

Blow up.

Versus the harder thing to do is to do those things that Carrie just mentioned. Right. Say, listen, I'm looking to do this. I'd like. I mean, those aren't easy things to do. And by the way, even though we know it's low risk practice and we preach, doesn't mean it makes you feel better at the time when you screw things up. Like right. There's, there's a challenge to that. But as we say all the time, this is probably the 15th time I've said on this podcast or Roger said it, Carrie's going to start saying it because we always say it is, you're going to look stupid someplace. Where do you want it to be?

Right.

And this idea of you're going to look stupid someplace, if you're going to look stupid with a cfo, look stupid with your own CFO or look stupid with a friend that's a cfo. I don't know. Right. Do those kind of things versus going out there because not only does it cost you money and opportunity, it can cost you and your agency credibility 100%.

Yeah, that's right.

So. All right, I will now step off my soapbox for a second. Kerry. I'll leave this very open. Anything you'd want to add just in terms of this relationship? Anything? We didn't discuss any question. I didn't ask you that. I should have. In regards to CFO relationships.

No, I think you've really touched on it. I would say in the spirit of relentless preparation, make sure that you're spending time building your business acumen. And that means make sure you're, you're, you're reading things that are going to help you be able to have those peer to peer conversations with a cfo. It's, the conversation isn't always about insurance. It's often about the business as a whole, the marketplace, the economic climate. So being prepared to have those conversations that lead into the business itself and then to the insurance is really important. So I would just really encourage you to spend some time there, put it on your calendar, because we know if it's not on the calendar, it doesn't get done. But that's, that's part of what you should be doing to be your very best when it comes to going out in the marketplace and connecting with CFOs.

Yeah, great advice. Again, it's such a. It's just a thing that we kind of gets lost in the shuffle. And I wrote something down. These are my final thoughts and we'll wrap up here.

Okay.

Again, this is true with the cfo, but this is true really anywhere. And it's like when you talk to someone of that level and this comes to business acumen. This is my opinion. They expect you to know the things that you should know, but they will connect with you when you show that you can understand and relate to the things that they truly care about. Right. And I think that's part of it is this is my insurance or benefit stuff, right? And we go on this thing versus wow. I connect with you because I can go deeper because I've done the work that other people won't do. So, Carrie, this is super helpful. And I think, you know, we've had some side conversations and work with agencies and producers and it's like, yeah, I really thought about that. So I really hope this episode, I know it would add value to you and your agency, your producers. Carrie, because you did such a great job and I knew you would, I'm going to have you back a lot more. So if I find some more topics to talk about, Roundtable, some discussion, there's a lot of things going on in the marketplace. And by the way, if there's a topic, an area you'd like for us to cover, let me know. Reach out to us. Please do that and we'd love to have a conversation with you again. You can learn more about our Overall philosophies at Sitkins.com Take the scorecard at Sitkins.com Scorecard Pretty straightforward name and with that, I wish you and your agency all the best and your success. Thanks for listening, everybody. Take care. The Agent Leader podcast is brought to you by the fine folks of the Rough Notes Company. They're publishers of the insurance industry's leading magazine and technical insurance content, Roughness Magazine profile, successful agencies. Plus keen insights from respected experts on a host of must know topics. Rough Notes Advantage plus provides the tools to help your agency grow, providing authoritative information on complex coverage issues. Visit them and learn more at roughnotes com.