Elevate Your Leadership Game with Jill Wagner Kelly

What truly makes a dynamic leader? One who inspires, one who encourages, and one also who challenges others to become their best. On today's podcast, I have the distinct privilege of interviewing Chief Distribution Officer of Grange Insurance, Jill Wagner Kelly. Now, Jill sits in the C suite today, but has served in numerous positions in leadership throughout her career. And we'll talk about authentic leadership, empathetic leadership, and also leadership that requires courage to have difficult conversations. You're going to love this episode. It's going to make you a better leader and your agency a better agency. Enjoy. Welcome to the Agent Leader podcast. This is the podcast for agency leaders to learn, to grow, to develop, and ultimately become their best version possible. My name is Brent Kelly. I'm your host. It's a pleasure to be with you on this episode. And I have an incredible guest today who not only do I respect at such a high level professionally, we're going to talk about some of the professional achievements and learnings and success paths and all the things that I think agency leaders can certainly benefit from, but also someone who I happen to know personally. I have Jill Wagner Kelly, and you may notice that that's a similar last name as my last name. Jill is not only the Chief Distribution Officer at Grange Insurance, and we're going to talk about some of the stuff that she does there in leadership, but she also happens to be married to my older brother, so we do know each other that way. So, Jill, welcome to the Agent Leader podcast.

Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. How can I say no to a family member? Right?

Well, you know, I had to be persistent, you know, in my ways of things going on. But listen, I have had the benefit certainly, of, you know, being with Jill at events and family things over the years, and, and, and I can tell you, obviously, she's a fantastic human being and individual, just a person that you like. But we also do get the chance to talk a little bit about leadership and insurance when we have some time. And so I'm excited, Jill, to. To go deeper into some really important subjects of, you know, of agency leadership and your perspective, you know, being on the carrier side and what you've learned and what you're learning in terms of. Of leadership. And so we'll. We'll take this probably a number of different ways, but I really want to start off just by asking about your role. You know, I said Chief Distribution Officer. Hopefully I have that right. So just start off with this, Jill. What's your role within Grange and how do you work with agencies across the country?

Well, it's chief distribution. A lot of times people think, what is that? And I've been asked that several times. What, what is that? And basically I'm in charge of sales and marketing. So when you're in charge of sales and marketing, it's working with agency partners. That's, that, that is my number one job. I'm, I'm that fortunate. I grew up in the underwriting world, so I've, I've, I've worked with agents my entire career. But when you're on the sales side, it's a whole different ball game than when I'm on the underwriting side. And it, it's actually a better fit for me than the underwriting side. So I work with our agency partners in order to grow, find solutions, find ways for our teams to work better together and, and, and ultimately get us, get, get both of us where we need to be.

Yeah, I, I love it. And there's so, there's some commonalities even what I do and working with agencies, although we have, you know, different, different approaches and things we're trying to accomplish. You know, one of the things that I want to hear about is your leadership journey, you know, and again, we've had some, some conversations off air, so to speak, on it. But, you know, from where you're at now, right in your, your executive leadership position, there's a lot of different ways. I think some people even, I think, oh, there's one linear path to, to maybe get to the spot, but it doesn't work that way. So if you would, you'll kind of share your story, your experience and what you've learned on this journey.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's funny, I've heard so many time that times that insurance kind of finds you. Not many people go to school to be in insurance and say, you know, I want to be in insurance someday. You know, sometimes it's in the family, so it happens. But. So right out of college, you know, I was recruited on campus to work for an insurance company as a personal lines underwriter, you know, and I'm thinking to myself, I don't even know what that does. I don't even know what an underwriter does. So I said to myself, you know, I'll do this for a couple years and then, then I'll move on to what I really want to do. And that was so naive, so such a naive statement as I, as I didn't know anything about this industry. So now it's been 30 plus years and I'm Passionate about helping the younger generation see what it has to offer on the carrier side, on the agency side and the reinsurance side. And in those 33 years, I was a PL underwriter. Then I was a field underwriter focusing on commercial lines and pharma. So I've been on a lot of farms then a commercial lines underwriting manager. And then during that time, I was fortunate enough to get my mba. And what I learned from that really was critical thinking. And we did a lot of business case analysis for all types of industries, not just insurance. So when I worked as an underwriting manager, I started writing white papers about differentiation and, and finding ways for agency to view. To view my carrier as a partner and a reason for them to want to stay with us and put business with us. So I added risk management and program and niche business to my journey. So you can, you could see that it's kind of a lattice. It's not a ladder. It was, it was really a lattice move for me. So then I moved to a company called Integrity Insurance, where I was brought on as the VP of commercial lines. And three years later, my boss left and I was blessed to lead Integrity as their president. And at that point, I was drinking from a fire hose. I'm thinking, what made me think that I could take on running this whole company. But what we were able to build together came from the first day that I was in front of, of the associates and I told them, you don't build a company, you build people and they build a company. And you know, that became our mantra. And it has remained the single most important leadership decision that I ever made. You know, people rally around people when they know we're in it together. So we were also part of a larger organization in Columbus, Ohio, called Grange Insurance, which allowed me to be exposed to even greater scale opportunities, which transformed me into my current role as the chief distribution officer. So with risk comes reward. So along the way, my greatest assets became the people that wanted to be part of building something together. So I found allies, coaches, mentors, and I view my career as a lattice. Everything doesn't have to be straight up. I need my boss's job. It can be. I just, I'm. I want to learn something else and I'm going to expand my role and, and that's basically what, what got me into the role I'm in today.

That's such a cool story. I love that lattice and like, just picking up bits and pieces and nuggets everywhere you go and you challenge yourself in different areas. My Guess is, Jill, some of those things were uncomfortable along the way.

Oh, like, like I said, I'm drinking from a fire hose. I mean, I'm, I'm now sitting in front of a board of directors in charge of, you know, a, a large organization that I'm thinking, you know, how am I going to do this? And I should have been thinking about it more as, hey, if I surround myself with great people there, we'll, we'll get it done. We'll, we'll do it. And that's basically been my success. I will, I will land always on surround yourself with really good people.

Yeah, that's great advice. And you know, part of this too, that you know, the audience and we were talking about this, you know, agency leaders, there's, there's huge challenges. I always, I always joke, Jill, this probably isn't very funny, but I said, you know, leadership would be easy if it wasn't for the darn people. Haha. And the other thing too is that, you know, this is my belief and you know, that the number one role of leadership above anything else is to grow and develop your number one asset, which is your people. And you talk about that. It's about growing people and growing people. And I know, you know, for agent leaders, it's a challenge for a lot of people that, that we work with in the sense of they may have come from a sales background or someone else else and done a really good job and now all of a sudden they've got this responsibility and opportunity of leading other human beings. And one of the things that I know, again, we've had some conversations about this. And then also as I travel around to different events and people say, oh, you know, Jill, I'm like, yes, I do. And one thing that often comes up in people that I've talked that surround you is Jill is very authentic and open to some of these things. And you know, I think so much we think about it's what you know, it's what you know, it's what you know. And there's importance to what you know and having acumen, but I think there's a different level of leadership when you'll be able to be authentic and vulnerable and really getting to know people and what they want. And I'll brag on you because you're good, but you've done a great job of that. Again, the people that I've talked with that, oh, Jill really gets to know people. So how is that just that idea of authentic leadership? What does that mean to you? How do you embody that. Maybe share an example of areas where you've had that, of authentic leadership.

Yeah, if I, if I look back now and look at my leadership style, to me, it just feels like I'm being me. I don't come with a different face on when I'm working. It's just me. So I recognize that all my associates, all the people that I work with, they have lives outside of work. We all have issues, we all have families, we all have bills to pay. We just come to work and do two different jobs. Doesn't make anyone better. It just makes us different. So once people know you truly believe that and you it and you walk the talk, they trust that. The decisions I'm making, I use, I'm using data points for I'm informed. I maybe have different levels of information coming my way that they might not have access to. So I always start with the why. People may not always like the end result, but they can see why I was making the decision. I've made some really tough decisions. After Covid hit, we were not using our building in Appleton. If we had, even before COVID maybe 20 people in the building at any one time, and you have an asset sitting there and you think, okay, well, how am I going to talk through my decisions that I'm making about selling this building so that everyone can. When I only add little, a few people in there at any one time? So I started with the why. And as soon as I explain the why, it's a, It's a much easier journey for me. So it's, It's a frequent story I share is about a prior boss that on my last day of work asked me if I could be. If he could be on my personal board of directors. At the time, I had no clue what he meant. He had shared that he wanted to be part of my journey. And if we could, if he could be a sounding board for me, he was all in. I mean, what, what kind? That's a great boss to me, in my opinion. So that was a turning point where I've built a personal board of director of people that give you a different perspective. So if you consider yourself the CEO of you and you consider how a board works for a company, then it makes sense that surrounding yourself with people who aren't like you, that have different viewpoints, they were raised differently, they see the world through a different lens that is different than your lens, then you have surrounded yourself with a mighty set of who want to be part of your journey. And it's pretty Powerful and I use it as one of the pillars when I coach a mentor. I mean I really, it's the final piece of the five step process I take people through is who's going to be your personal board of directors because you're the CEO of you. And, and that has been, that has worked unbelievably well for me over the, through my career.

I, I. What a huge takeaway, Jill. Just because, you know, think about that. We, we talk just, you know, in our vernacular about and this is for producers and leaders, about Me Inc. That you own your own company. I mean it's part of another company, but you've got to think like that. And we actually say one of the roles as chairman of the board. And now it comes to mind of well, who's on your board?

Right.

And, and who's the board of directors? And again, I'll speak for agency leaders and I know, you know those listening right now, you know, some of you are with larger organizations and agencies, some may be smaller of people that you have, but it can feel sometimes lonely at the top in the sense of okay, I'm here, like who's going to challenge me? And maybe you're not thinking that with ego or malice, but it's just the fact that you start to get caught in your own world. And so you know, Jill, to have that personal board of directors of hey, you know what, you might want to consider this or your head's getting a little big here or something. You know, I know for me and, and having mentors and coaches around me where you just kind of get on your way and you lack awareness and someone asked you a question and you go wow, I didn't even consider that. So have you had some example? I mean whether it's people you're mentoring a coaching yourself where there's been, I don't have to be a specific example, but just mindset shifts that happen by having a personal board of directors.

I, I think I'll, I'll share because I coach a lot of people and they're all different too as well. So when we get to this segment of surrounding themselves, I always the discussion is, is who's on your board of directors and why are they on your board of directors? Because that tells me, okay, what was your thought process behind it? So I was coaching someone who was in a certain area of the company and said here's who I'm going to have on my personal board of directors that's going to help me in my area. And it happened to Be another male. And I said to this gentleman, have you thought about what it would. You surround yourself with someone who. He might have a different perspective than you do about that area. But if you. It was, it was a finance area. I said, but have you thought about including a female in your personal board of directors? Because how they look at the financial aspect of a company might be very different than how you do or how a male might look at it, because you're already in that. But that's. You're already similar. Two guys are already similar looking at that. So maybe add a female to that because they might look at it totally different or they might have been raised different. I, I go deep into understanding, not telling them who should be on there, just questioning their thought process behind it. I had an associate that worked for me for a very long time, very, very intelligent man working for me. And he had a really small. He was an introvert. He had a very small group of people that he would go and, and bounce ideas off of. And I said, look, if, if you're only going to bounce off ideas off people who are just like you, you're never going to change how that looks. So even when you're talking agent principal to agent principal, one of our agent advisory board members gains great value when they're talking to someone in a whole different state because the markets aren't the same. So one's in Wisconsin, one's in Kentucky. Totally different markets. They can learn from each other. Now add another component to it. Oh, they happen to be a female versus a male. How's their journey different? One happens to be in a rural area, one happens to be in a highly populated area. So the process of putting your board of directors together is really about thinking what lens someone else is looking at something through versus finding someone who's going to tell you exactly what you want to hear.

Yeah, yeah, that's such good perspective. And yeah, just my brain's thinking about, you know, we use the term collective genius and think about mastermind and such, but very similar to a personal board of directors. And yeah, if you're a mastermind, where people at all look like you and talk like you and thought like you, you just be like, yeah, I am smart. Yes, yes, you are smart.

Right.

Versus Versus that. I like that idea of, of having a different lens. So I appreciate you sharing that.

A lot of times people think that it has to be. It. It has to be a someone you know or a friend, but it doesn't even. You can go to a conference and run across someone who happens to be in this totally different area, and you think you hit it off and you say, hey, could I. Could I reach out to you and ask you about a couple things that I've. I've had on my brain or that I've been working on? And think of the. When you ask someone to be on their person, your personal board of directors, what an honor. That is how it makes them feel that you trust them to. To ask them some questions.

Yeah, that's a great point, too, in the fact of, you know, I know with some of our members, like, you know, they may live in different states or whatever and connect a few times a year, but to some degree, there's power in not being as close or connected because you lose maybe some of that worry about, oh, I know this person every day. What are they going to think about? You have a specific area or objective you're trying to work on, and you want their expertise. Right. Or specialty in that area, and they're not afraid to challenge enough. They should be anyway, because I'm just trying to help you grow.

Have you, have you ever heard of or done any reverse mentoring where instead of. And typically this is. A younger generation is going and asking a younger generation how they view things. It's, it's. They maybe are only five years in the business and you're 30 years in the business, and you, you go to them and say, I want you to mentor me. You mentor me and you do. It's kind of reverse role revolt. Reverse your roles for a while and, and see what you can learn from it. And don't go in with any preconceived or anything like that. Role reversal on it. Have you ever done that?

Not officially. I probably have done that indirectly. Just as far as you talk to someone and they're like, thank you so much. I'm like, oh, thank you. Like, I learned a ton from your perspective. So not officially, but that's a great idea.

Yeah.

I. And I, I have had, I've had mentors and still do that. You know, I get on there and I'm almost like, hey, thanks again so much for, you know, speaking with me and talking through stuff. And they go, no, thank you. So I see it in different, you know, both components of that because you can learn so much from, you know, different. Not just, you know, male, female, different part of the country, but also just years of experience.

That's right.

And.

Right. Well. And I have my kids on my personal board of directors.

You do?

Because I'll. I'll go to them and say, how would you view this as a 30 something, how would you view it? If I'm a company and I'm saying I'm your employer and I'm doing this H. How would you view that? So even in any size agency, any size company asking how would a 30 year old feel if I'm going to make a shift to something and I do the same thing with agencies, I'll, I'll say, how are the producers going to feel about this? And I'll take it to. Typically I take it to my husband because he was in the agency plant for so long that it was so nice for me to say, how do you think agents are going to react to this when I give it to them? If I make this decision, how are they going to react? Hud Give it to me through the lens of the agency versus through my lens, which is just, well, of course this is, this is going to work.

Yeah, that's really, it's, it's interesting. And I, I was. You're saying that it got me thinking, like, you know, part of it is you've got to be, you got to be confident enough to be vulnerable. I don't know if I'm saying that right. That's in my word. But like, it's just the fact that I know what I'm doing is, you know, I'm on the right path, I'm doing good stuff. It's not that I'm lacking that, but I'm confident enough to also know I could be completely off base.

That's right. Yeah, you could.

And I know I have been. Do you see leaders struggle with that, Jill? Then of, you know, there's that bit of ego or I don't want to look silly or whatever the case may be.

Yeah, that goes, that goes always really, because I have someone who works for me might not. I'll start out the conversation by saying I already know. You don't know everything and you should know that I don't know everything. So how. Let's, let's just assume that. So that is, we're kind of clean and right from the top, we know we don't know everything, so let's make it better by doing it together. So I had an associate that ended up reporting to me and she had only been with the company a couple weeks and her, her boss took ill and she ended up reporting to me and she sitting across from me and all of a sudden she's reporting to the president of the company and you could tell she was nervous. You could tell that she was uncomfortable. And I said, you know, don't worry. I already know. You don't know things. That's okay. You just joined the company three months ago, so don't worry about that. Feel comfortable coming and asking me and I'll walk you through whatever. But then they have to be. I have to be vulnerable with them too and say, look, I might have this title, but I don't know everything. I really don't know everything. And you're going to teach me things, too. And once you take away all that and give them the ability to do that, it changes their relationship. It changes the way they work for you because they know they can walk in the door and ask you a question without me thinking, well, that's a stupid question. Why doesn't she know that?

Right.

So I just do it right up front. I already know. You don't know everything. That's what I'm here for. And I don't know everything. So that's what you're here for.

That's. That's really powerful, Jill. And, and the truth of it is, especially, you know, you think about leaders in different positions and layers of leadership or whatever it is, is there are people, whether three weeks in that might know some things because they're actually doing it.

Yeah.

Or perspective that you're like, I know this is kind of weird, Jill, but I don't. Why do we do it? Like, this makes sense to me.

Right.

And you're like, I don't know. Why do we do it that way?

Yeah. And the follow through has to be. I'm not going to make you look like an idiot if I don't agree with you. Right. It's not like it's the whole idea of not making them look like an idiot after they're telling, sharing you, sharing their. Their thoughts with you on something like why are you doing that? Or questioning you.

Well, and I love that, Joe, because as perspective of a leader, if I'm not allowing them to be comfortable to share that I might be missing out on something that could be critically important to our company that I'm missing.

That's right. That's right.

That's really cool. Really cool. Hey there, Agent leader Brent Kelly here want to take just a few seconds to remind you that now is the time to create your true, best version possible agency. If you go to sitkins.com bookacall sitkins.com bookacall we'll get to know more about your agency, conduct an agency assessment and provide your agency With a customized plan to help you avoid some of the pitfalls, frustrations, challenges and roadblocks to get your agency to true ultimate freedom and become its best version possible. It all starts by going to sitkins.com/book a call. So. All right, I want to, I want to move into a similar subject, employee engagement. Now you've worked with lots of people, lots of different employees. In fact, I don't have an exact number on this. You might. If not, I'm not putting you on the spot on it, but I was working with a company, I can't remember the number, but it was over 50% of some of these organizations where they find that employees are simply not engaged. And I know there's a lot of different studies on that, but it's a critical thing. I mean it's like you think about a team and you know, how many part time employees do you have potentially? Because they're zoned out.

Right.

So how do you, I mean from your perspective, what, I don't say secrets or tricks because that's not the right word. But what, what's, what's the process? What's the mindset that you have, Jill, from your scope and leadership of having higher levels of employee engagement?

Well, you have to start with anytime a team is together, you have to go through phases. And every team I've been with, this has held true. It's forming, storming, norming and performing. Right. You know, those four phases and every team goes through those phases. And when there is an addition or a change to the team, you start at the beginning. And I was on it, I was leading a team where it seemed to take forever. We were in the storming phase. We just could not get out of that storming phase. So it finally I just said to them, okay, let's sit down, we need to, we need to move forward. What's it going to take? And it ended up one of the, the people ended up leaving the team and it's, it's amazing. Okay, go back to the beginning. We're a new team forming. We're now we storm. How are we going to set ourselves? What are the norms and then how are we going to perform? So it doesn't matter if your team is big or small. It doesn't matter if you're part of a very large company or if you're a small company. It doesn't matter if you're an agency or a carri. Building a team is the cornerstone of success. It when I was leading integrity, we won together. We held each Other accountable. If someone wasn't putting, pulling their weight, their teammates needed to share that and, and help. It wasn't come to Jill and tell Jill what's going on and then she'll go back and tell that person. Nope. The, the whole team had to feel comfortable going and talking to the person that was there. It wasn't this triangulation of let's bring, you know, mom in to solve this for us. So every year at the start of the year, I would greet every associate at the door and I'd kick off the theme for the year. So that theme remained as a sign at the back door when they came in every day. It reminded them what was important that year. So I had each associate go through a Myers Briggs test so we could talk as a team about how we receive information, how we process information. Basically understanding that everyone's different and knowing this information about their teammates help you, helps you be better teammates and it builds trust. So it allows people to be okay with being different. And in my role leading sales, I have a lot of extroverts on my team, but my marketing team has more introverts on it. And well, I, I, I need these teams to work together and if they don't understand how to communicate with each other or understand their different styles, I'm, I'm going to have a problem. But once you pave the way to understanding those differences, then it becomes your secret weapon. Something that competitors can't copy, they can't copy. So if you go through the process of this, you know, forming a team, then storming, let's get it, let's, let's go through the, the difficulty of storming, then norming and performing. That's where you set a company apart. That's how I've set my teams apart. It's, it's, it's worked really well when I've gone through that same process every time.

Well, I wish I, or we had as cool as names as you did because I like that. That's cool. I, the, the, the, the, the four steps there make a ton of sense. And the thing you said, Jill, just seems so, it seems so obvious, but it's also so missed. And if I said it right, basically you said building a team is the, and I forgot if you said is the, the most cornerstone. The cornerstone.

I mean it's the cornerstone.

It's, and you know this is true to go all the way back. I mean, obviously, you know, you're on the carrier leadership side. We have agencies that work with that are 100 million revenue plus or large agency, multiple layers. We have smaller agencies, even down to producer and service teams. And this, this will probably shock you, Jill. The producers I had the pleasure of working with, you know, million, 2 million, $3 million revenue producers. If you talk to them, it's all about building relationships with their team and empowering their team. And, and, and, you know, this is an old cliche quote, but I'm like, do you want to go fast or far?

And.

And they're like, yeah, I've got to get this person. And all of a sudden they've got four or five of them in this unit, and they're just versus. You've got others going, man, I'm working so hard. I'm like, yeah, you got three people fighting against you.

That's right. That is absolutely right. That's absolutely right. And it doesn't matter what size I've. You see it at big organization, small. I, I would tell my leaders that were on my team. So goes that group, my leadership team, so goes the rest of the company. Everyone reports up to them. So if your leaders, each of them have 8 to 10 people working for them. That team has to be in lockstep, and they have to be understanding of what's going on in the company. They have to, they have to be leading. Not identically. They, they all don't have to lead the same way because they all have different teams that. And personalities that they're working with, but they have to have a foundation that's strong enough that says, here's how this, these are our norms, and this is how we're going to lead on this team. And if there's something that someone that doesn't want to lead the same way or doesn't want to, to buy into that, then it's time for that leader to go find their joy somewhere else. Right.

I like how you said that.

Yeah.

Go find your joy.

It doesn't make you bad. Just means you got to go find your joy and what makes you happy. That's right.

That's right. Well, and I want to get to some, you know, challenging conversations around that. But yeah, it's. It's true. Because we'll have, you know, people that will decide, hey, you needed to find your joy somewhere else. And they'll come back two years later and say, thank you, thank you so much for allowing me to go do what I really was meant to do. And it wasn't that.

Oh, I was hoping we'd get into the conversation or thinking we'd get into the conversation around this, difficult conversations, because everyone has to let. It's probably let someone go or had to have that difficult conversation. And. And if. And you don't sleep the night before because you know you're impacting someone's livelihood and, oh, you gotta. You gotta let this person go. It's not a part of the team. And. And you know that it was their actions that put you in a position to have to do it. So it's not like you were doing it. But when. My very first time I had to have that difficult conversation, she came back after I ran in. I ran into her several months later, and you'd think someone's going to not talk to you after that. What she said was, thank you for kicking me in the butt, because I wouldn't have. Now I'm sitting in a position that I love doing the things that I love, and I wouldn't have done it because I was so comfortable just working where I was. So it was. It's a crucial conversation. So I was hoping we would get. Get to that portion of it because I. I think agencies have those within their team, and they don't realize how detrimental they can be to the overall team.

Yeah, well, let's get into it. Talk about it, because I want you to take it deeper, because I think it's just like this thing that people don't often want to talk about, even though we all know it exists, is that there's an issue with a person on my team or a situation here. And again, we can go a lot of different ways with this, but, you know, bottom line is, you know, I know, I know my coaching conversation, Jill. I've had conversations with agency leaders where they're talking about this person, and six months later, we have a conversation and they're talking about this person. And I said, hold on a second. Wasn't this. Is this the same. Yeah, yeah, it is. And, you know, bottom line of this is we all know there's an issue. That person probably knows there's an issue. Your team knows there's an issue, and yet there's that fear, doubt, uncertainty of how to address it. So let me just start with that from your perspective, Jill. Like, how do you prepare? How do you get ready to have some of these conversations? Like, what lens or viewpoint do you come from? Because, you know, it needs to happen. It's just when and how and all those other details that go into it.

You know, as a leader, other people on the team are watching how you deal with that. They're. They're watching you and when you don't take action on someone, it, it impacts the entire team and their, how they look at you. So they'll look at you and after you do something, it's like it's about time. What, what. That's what you hear because you think, oh, this is going to be terrible. And it really isn't because the whole team recognizes that, that someone either isn't pulling their weight or isn't, isn't really buying into the, the group of being successful. So you have to go into this with facts and data. It's not anecdotal. One person said this, so now that's how I feel. It's facts and data. Here's the instances that, that show me that this is how you've behaved or this is what you've done or this is what your work product is and really make it about that and not personal. It's, it's, it's not personal. It's. Here's the facts. And I, I used to tell or I have told my team in the past, if I were to hold, this is a leader now of people who work for them and I'd say if I'm going to give your performance rating at the end of the year, is going to be equal to your worst performer. Equal. So if that person is a does not met. Does not meet or that's going to be your rating, what are you going to do about it? So you either, you either you either manage them up or you manage them out because your, your rating is, is only as good as that lowest performer that you have on there. And it's amazing how quickly they either turn it around and put that person back on track or got them on track or they got, they got put. You know, they showed them that this wasn't the place for them and out the door they went to find their happiness somewhere else. But as soon as I started holding them accountable to their lowest performing associate, it became very real to them that. Yeah, I guess I, I don't, I don't want to disappoint the team and I don't want to have my lowest, my rating impacted by my lowest performer.

Wow.

It worked. It worked well. Works. Really. It still works today. I still use that as an example.

Yeah, I, I mean I wrote that down. I could see that. I mean just think about that in that perspective where it's like talk about owning leadership. Is that, that, that's your rating? Like, well, that's not, that's not right or fair. And I don't know if this is the right terminology because I don't know that it's, it's, it's totally this. But there's a part almost I'm sensing of selfishness in the sense of I don't want to personally experience a difficult situation in spite of the fact that I'm harming these other group of people. Because ultimately what, you know what, my lens on this, Jill, is that if I allow this to happen right then. But I'm basically saying is this is our standard, which is kind of a similar way of what you said. Like, by the way, you're all welcome to live to that standard because apparently, apparently it's okay here. And yikes. That, that message, that message is crazy. So anything else to add on that joke? This is an important topic only.

Only that it takes time. You have to get comfortable with that. And someone on your personal board of directors would be a great one to, to bounce off of. Give me an example of how you handle this. So people have probably gone through these crucial conversations, the whole crucial conversation book and format that they have put together. And I remember going through it and how uncomfortable I felt at the beginning. And in a smaller agency, it's personal. It becomes personal like. Oh, so in the larger organizations, it might not be as much of a, of a, A hard thing to do. Well, I don't, I don't mean it that way. I don't mean it's not, it's always not difficult to do, but. Or it's always difficult to do. But I, I just think getting, getting used to using facts and data and explaining the, the why you're doing what you're doing. I think it gets easier and easier. It, it becomes less emotional and less about you and your fear of doing something and more about. Here's the facts. Here's what we need for this position. And this isn't a good fit for you. And we've tried and we've given you opportunities. So it's using facts and data and not being anecdotal about it, just not using anecdotal data. One person said, you're doing this. Well, that's, that's one person's opinion. That's not, that's not true and factual. But if I have true and factual data, that's going to become my cornerstone for why I'm going to make the move that I'm going to make.

Yeah, it's. I wrote down, it's about principles and practice versus emotion. And not that there's always Going to be emotion, but it's the fact of there's certain principles we live by. And then what I heard with personal board of directors and for the listeners listening to this is, to me, this is no different if they come from a sales background. Are you practicing your presentation? You know, are you rehearsing things? Are you going through some role plays of being ready for the moment? I would assume, Jill, you've, I shouldn't assume anything, but I would think that you would be doing some of that in your experience of, hey, let me role play this, let me walk this through, let me practice this so that I'm, I'm ready because it's an important conversation.

Part of it was practicing. Part of learning those skills was practicing. HR has taught me a lot. The human resource area has, has walked me through. Here's what I need you to hit on, because there's, there's all sorts of other ramifications from the HR side if you do it, if you're going to go cowboyish on it. So they want you to do it in a certain way, but they also hold you accountable to bringing in the data and the, the facts as well. You just can't walk in the door and say, hey, look, I think I'm going to get rid this person. I, I, I really don't want them in my te, on my team anymore. And HR will push back and say, okay, let talk me through all of the instances and, and data that you have that's going to show that. But they, they do practice and they're a great sounding board when you need it.

Yeah, it makes, makes ton of sense. All right, I have one official final question, which is my favorite final question. And then anything goes to if there's anything you'd like to add that we didn't get to. But a question I love to ask every single guest is, you know, you talked today about, you know, a lattice and all the different experiences you've had in leadership and growth. And so I want to imagine I'll set this, I'll set this scenario up. You walk outside after we do this interview, okay. And you're just kind of walking along and you bump into someone and you look over and it's the younger version of you when you're starting on your career journey, which, by the way, is kind of weird now that I say that out loud, but okay. It happens before you. Oh, my gosh. And, and the younger version of you says, oh my gosh. Wise experience, knowledgeable, savvy. Jill, if you could give me one piece of advice before I have to run off. What would it be? What advice would you give your younger self?

Is it, is it, you want it work related or you want it, you want it personally related?

Because you give me one or the other, or you can give me both.

Whatever you think, I'll, I'll say the thing that's personal. I'd say take care of your skin. It's your biggest organ on your body. You're going to pay for that later if you don't take care of your skin. But if I, if, if I wished, I would have learned things so much sooner. So it's why I'm so passionate about now wanting to, When I retire, I am going to go back into that, either the university or the age group where I can start sharing some of that information. Because they don't know what they don't know, right? So I was fortunate enough to have such great mentors around me my entire career and someone who, you know, kicked me in the butt when I needed to be kicked in the butt. So the more you can do that, the better. But I do know when I was younger, I had a very narrow view as to what was out in this world. And now with cell phones and access to everything, I'm sure kids are exposed to a lot more things than I ever was when I was, you know, in the 80s graduating high school. And so I would just say find some really great mentors and start that personal board director sooner rather than later.

I, I, I love it. And I just, I wrote down, I just kept thinking like, you know, what's the, what's the value of the best piece of advice you've ever received? Received. And yeah, there's probably multiple areas that you've heard things. I'm thinking of my own experience. And, you know, this is an example. Like, I, I, I, selfishly, I tell people I, I love these podcasts because I just ask questions and I, I learn a ton of stuff and it's this idea of like, this person's had X amount of years or thousands of experiences in these areas and I get to ask a few questions and pluck out the, you know, the stuff that's top of the list. Like, I know you made 897,000 mistakes, but give me the three things that were like, the best. And they're like, this is it. And you're like, oh. So I think that, you know, that advice, Jill, you're talking about is just be open to mentors, right? And you don't want to Hit me on this. And I want to get, get your viewpoint on this is I think of all these things of learning and growth with a mentor, mentee, leadership, employee, team member, whatever role. It doesn't matter is those that are insanely curious seem to have an advantage.

Yes. Yes. My, my boss said to me recently, he noticed that there's sometimes a lack of curiosity. It feels like there's a lack of curiosity in the younger generation. They don't seem as curious. And, and if as long as I was reading books like crazy because it was so interesting to me and I was reading Inc Magazine or Fast Company and trying to take something that I learned in there and say, how does that apply to insurance? And how, how can information. And without those hard copies and having to go look for it, I wonder if the younger generation is coming to them in bits and pieces versus when we would sit down and read a magazine or we would sit down and read a full book on something and we got deep into it. I, I wonder if that is impacting how they go forward and should I be talking to them about reading a full book and reading magazine articles and, and things that are more pertinent that they make some think globally versus thinking just about what's in front of them today. So it's, it's, it's a, it's, it's a great topic. You and I could talk all day about, about. Yeah, I know you're a, you're a great reader.

It would be a, it would be a, a great conversation, a topic of that. Because it does, I mean, there's, there's value in both. And so I don't mean one of those diminishes the fact I'm a kid. As you know, Jill, I've got, I've got three, you know, I got three dogs, say two teenage daughters because one's 21 now. But you know, just the amount of quick input and it's like 10 seconds here and 5 seconds here and 15 seconds here and to one area, I'm like, man, you can get so much stuff, but it's so surface related.

Right, right. It felt like we would have to go deep into it or we did go deep into it when we were doing it. And I think they've just gotten so used to it coming at them so fast. So going back and talking to them about, I have someone that I mentor that I send everything that at my level I can send to him and say, hey, put this away for when you're going to be leading someday because you Will be you, you will be leading someday. Know this because that's what's going to make you curious about asking all the right questions. So I just need to continue to do that to that younger generation.

That's cool. Well, I know you'll be great at that as you move into that area as well. So Joe, thanks so much for coming on and doing this. It's great to catch up and see you and talk with you and of course, share this with an audience. So I'll turn it to you for whatever you want to end with because, you know, we've got an audience of agency leaders. There's some insurance producers, we've probably got some carrier folks that listen. But it's primarily agency leaders. There's anything that from your perspective that you'd want to share with them as you wrap up, something to consider, to think about, I don't know, whatever, what comes to your mind.

That's very broad, Brad. That is, that is a very broad question.

Be more broad. But I wanted to just challenge you.

Here at the end. I, I, I would. If we're talking about curiosity as one of our last topics and we talk about agencies being, being curious and you and I talked before we went on the air about the changing distribution and, and how, and I, I hesitate to call agencies, distributors, but they are distributing our products. Right? So as a, distribute, as a distributor, what are they seeing and are they keeping up with change? As a carrier, I don't want to be telling agencies how to run their business. I want to be sharing with them what we're doing and bringing them along on our journey because the faster we go with technology, the more we need them to come along on the ride with us because otherwise we're not going to sync up. So if we talk about curiosity, it's remain curious and ask your, ask your carriers to give you that information. So my agent advisory board is in next week. I, I want them to throw every question they have at me because I'm going to be digging into their world is just as much as they're digging into mine. So continue to be curious.

I, I love it. I think that's, I mean that it, it's, it's a great answer to a very broad question. So you know what, you handle it well. But it's, it is so true. I, I mean, I just can think of so many instances where, you know, agencies and working with carriers, I'm like, just ask them, you know how, ask them, ask them what the best model would look. Ask them what they've learned. Ask them success patterns, ask where agencies fail. Ask whatever. Ask them because you need to be on the same team and if you're not asking that question, it doesn't feel like you are.

And Right.

We need a better align in that. So listen, thank you again. I know you've got got a busy schedule and you're running companies and doing all kinds of stuff, but thank you so much Jill for coming on here today.

Yeah, it was nice talking to you, Brent. Thanks for having me.

Thanks everybody. Take care. Wait, you're still here? Hey Agent Leader Podcast listeners, Brent Kelly again, I want to first of all, thank you for listening to the Agent Leader podcast and your continued support. If you would like to have more content come your way, please help us by sharing the podcast, subscribing to the podcast, telling people about the podcast, and if you as an agent leader are truly ready to take that next step in your agency, you're committed and want to be that best version possible. Agency don't wait. Go to sitkins.com bookacall sitkins.com bookcall we want to provide the blueprint for your agency to help you create more impact with less effort. And it all starts by going to sitkins.com bookacall alright, now you can actually go. Thanks.