Mastering Cohort Management: Insights from Insurance Pro Kari Glennon

On today's Agent Leader Podcast, I have a fantastic discussion with Carrie Glennon, someone who not only understands the insurance industry at a very deep level, but I'm proud to call her a teammate on the Sitkins Group. And we talk about all kinds of things. Her background, her history. Most importantly, some of the key challenges and some of the key successes that she's seen and witnessed in the insurance industry. Enjoy this episode. Welcome to the Agent Leader Podcast. My name is Brent Kelly. Thanks so much for joining me on this episode. Glad to have you with me. And if you're watching on video with us, I have a very special guest today. I'm very, very excited about this guest for a couple different reasons. Well, probably even more than than a couple, but two reasons in particular. Number one, she is someone who provides tremendous value to the insurance industry, and she's had multiple roles and positions and experiences that I know that she'll share today that will add great value to you, the Agent Leader podcast audience. And number two, I'm proud to say that she's part of the Sitkins team and she's been with us now for, gosh, Carrie, we're talking about 90 days so far, but it feels like longer in a good way because you've already done and accomplished so much with us. So my guest today is Carrie Glennon. She is a senior consultant with the Sitkins Group. Carrie, welcome to the Agent Leader podcast.

Thanks, Brent. I appreciate it. Exciting to be here.

Yeah. Well, I'm going to ask Carrie some similar questions that I've asked guests, and my guess is I'll ask some different questions as well. And I really want you, the audience, to get to know not just Carrie, which I think is important. I want you to get to know Carrie because she's a great talent. And by the way, one thing that I love about Carrie and getting to really know her well the last 90, 100, 120 days as we were bringing you on board, Carrie, is not just that you provide great value to the industry, which I've mentioned, but you're a great human being that cares about the industry at a very deep level. So it'll be exciting to get your thoughts and your takes on that perspective and just knowing you're a great human being. So here's what I want to do. Carrie, I want to start off, and I'm going to leave this very open to you. This is your time to tell the world, who am I, what do I do, and why does it matter to you? And you can propose that any way you Want. But I would love, Carrie, if you could give background, you know, all the way from your industry experience and then of course, how you got to Sitkins. So I'll turn it over to you.

Yeah, okay. Thanks, friend. So one of the things that Roger and I had spoken about for years was how cool would it be if we ever got to work together. And the Unity Group was the largest independent agency north of Seattle until we sold and I went in as the head of sales and marketing and, you know, we didn't know one another. We didn't know. What we didn't know is what I would say. And one year after being there, I was invited to become a partner. And I was super excited. And the one thing they did ask is that I take off my property and casualty hat and learn benefits. And so that was very new and interesting for me, having had a PNC background. So I accepted the role as chief Sales officer for the organization down in the Los Angeles area. And while I was there, we rolled Orange county into that territory as well. So that was quite an experience, as you can imagine. While Seattle has obviously some very, very large organizations, a metropolis like LA has as many and then a lot more. Right. And a very big team. At the peak, there were 112 producers between the LA, Orange or LA campus and Orange county campus when they rolled together. So no sales, middle management in between the CSO and those folks. So when you've got that many people, it can be a crazy maker if you don't really have your ducks in a row.

Yeah, so just, just so the, the audience heard this. I know we've had many discussions around this, but you said you had 112 producers. Is that right at your peak? And there was no middle person. It was you and 112. And, and I've said this in this podcast and Carrie, you've heard this in some of the programs. I said, you know, hey, I love producers. I know you do too, but it's often like nailing Jello to a tree. So you, you had a lot of.

I love that term.

You had a lot of Jello to treat. So anyway, kudos. I just want to make sure the audience understood that because there was a big responsibility and you also had some great success, I'm sure we'll talk about. But I didn't mean to cut you off. Gary, please continue.

No, no, Well, I had a great. The, the president of our region was, you know, very, very hands on. So he, you know, was a great partner with that team. And we, you know, you're right, we had a lot of great successes. I learned a ton. Of course, when you're juggling that many folks and you have priorities right, you're pulled in a lot of directions. But some of the things that really stuck with me that came out of that. So now I'm now a big fan of something that I created when I was there called cohort management. So, so really taking a look at your categories of producers that you have, or creating categories and recognizing how you can best help a producer where they are in their career based on their skill set, their experience, the size of their book, their goals, et cetera. So what is it that they need and how can you serve them? Because there are some people who, you know, let's say they have a two plus million dollar book of business, their needs are going to be very different than somebody who has, let's say a $400,000 book of business and they're looking to double or triple that book in the next two to three years. Or a brand new producer that I called my builders, right, My builder producers who are just building the foundation for their career and just beginning to build their book. So that was a real help because, you know, when you've got that many folks, you're the most popular girl at the dance. I mean, you know, it was like having a revolving door in my office. You just, you're constantly talk to people, so you have to be real deliberate with your time. I would say my time with that national agency as well, I became a huge fan of specialization. In fact, as you know, I have a, I have an article coming out in Rough Notes very soon and the topic is specialization. Because as we know, buyers today really want to work with somebody who they believe has their, has. Has good knowledge of their industry. They understand the pains, they understand the things they're going through, the challenges that their particular industry holds, and how their, their producer can help them with that beyond just the standard right and price and placement right, those are table stakes. But it goes beyond that. It goes to the, the business acumen that folks have about specific industries and what they bring to the table with their connections and their knowledge. So yeah, I was lucky enough in my time both in the Northwest and down in California to build some specialty practices as well as to take some on and run those from the regions I was in. I'm a huge advocate of that and would recommend that to any producer these days. So my first introduction to Sickens was actually when I started with the Unity Group. So I worked at The Unity group. And I was the president said to me, you know, we picked Sickens as our, our sales training partner. Like we, we run their sales methodology and that's what we've taught you. But you didn't pick it. Now that you're our sales leader, you get to decide. And so we have a joke. And so I, I reached out and found Roger's biggest competitors. And so I had, I had a short period of time when I was cheating on Roger. That's what we say. So I went and met with competitors, I attended some of their sessions, and when it came right down to it, I made, I made the decision that Unity had gone with the right organization from the. Just the person that, that Roger is more down to earth. And his, his program was at the time really just. It checked all the boxes for the things that we needed as an independent agency. And I loved his openness to feedback. And we, our agency was part of the advisory group, so we were on the advisory board, so we would actually get to provide feedback. And, and it was, it was a, it was a really good experience. In fact, with the blessing of my partners, while we were still un, I spent 25% of my time consulting agencies with whom we didn't compete that were members of the Sitkins network. So I was a sales coach and I just worked it out with my agency just like a producer would. I had splits. So anything that I made right with Sitkins, I split it with my agency just like you would a commission right from, from a sale. So it was good for us because I got to experience a lot of other agencies and learn best practices and bring them back to the agenc and, and help others along the way as well. So it was really solidified my belief in Sitkins. In fact, so much so that when I did go to my position in la, we brought Sitkins in to our. To, To. To our program. And so Roger and another CSO and I locked ourselves in a room for like two and a half days basically, and customized the program for what we needed. And it was, it was great. And it's still alive and well to, to this day. As I understand. While it's all done virtually now, there's none of this in person. Right. Which is. Makes it. Makes it a lot better for the agency as well. So I've, I've completely kept in touch and worked with Sickens all along the way. And lo and behold, moon and stars lined up. Here I am.

Here we are now. You got to meet me, you know, gosh darn it.

You've been great to work with.

Just a couple things on that. Again, I don't want to. I could go through lots of different things, but a few areas I want to hit and go deeper with you on. But to first of all, start off, it's just funny because, you know, even in the approximately 90 days that. And you've already been very involved. I mean, we're on the ground running, and we're talking through some new programs, but I'm sure I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask you about some of those things that you're doing for the Sitkins group, but it's just think about all the experiences you have. And. And we'll be talking with either a current agency we work with or maybe a prospective agency that's in the works. And I'll be having a conversation with Carrie. And there's usually something like this, oh, yeah, I've done that before, or I've experienced that before, or here's what I've created for this specific thing before. And I'm like, okay, let's talk about it. And, you know, I'm being a bit, you know, kind of joking about some of that, but, man, the power of having someone on your team like Carrie. And I'm just a believer in this. You know, it's one of those things, and this is a bit cliche, but it's like, as a leader of an organization, like, I want to surround myself with people that are smarter than me, and that's not to devalue me or anybody on our organization. It's just we want to keep growing the value to our team. And. And the impact, Carrie, that you've made already has been incredible. And I can't wa to see what's to come because it's still really early. I do want to ask a couple questions based on what you said and certainly expand upon this or take it whatever direction you want. But one of the. One of the questions I was going to ask you is about frustrations. And maybe you teed this up for me, but you got a discussion about cohort management, right? And one of the frustrations that we see. In fact, you mentioned this on a call I think you had previous to us going live. What do I do with producers that are like this or like this or like this? If you can't see them in the video, they're different places, right? Different levels of skills, experience, you name it. So tell me more about cohort management. What does that mean? And, you know, why is that so important?

Sure. So as a sales leader there's I, I say this often. There's one sales leader and there's many producers. So the time management aspect is so important. We, we at Sickens talk about it's your one diminishing asset, right? So how, how are you going to spend it? So with cohort management, as you can imagine, let's just use an example of somebody who is, will say two to three years, three to five years even away from retirement versus that producer that's mid career, right? They maybe they have a very nice size book at about 65750 and they all of a sudden, right that they get that blinding flash of the obvious of oh my gosh, I can do it, right? I can get to a million plus, right? How, how am I going to do it? You can imagine that their, their leader is going to spend time with them. They each are in very different places in what they need to accomplish to be successful. And they probably have different, different requests for support, they have different requests for resources they need and they probably expect something different from their leader. So feeling like you can be the same thing for every person is not reasonable. But at the same time you can't be all things to all people. So by really analyzing your entire agency book by producer and taking a look and saying, okay, how many years has this person been in the industry? How big is their book? What is their annual goal that I expect them to achieve from a revenue perspective? What about investability? Right, the timepiece, how, how much should I invest in time with this particular group based on where they're at and what are they looking for and what resources can I make sure that are, you know, at the ready for them or drive them toward the other pieces? Again, going back to, you know, there's one of you and many of them. So those folks that are in that three to five year, two to five year category of getting ready to retire, oh my gosh. There is so much knowledge that that team of people has that our industry is losing. And it's truly, it's it, it, it's knowledge that the only way we're going to get it from them is for them to share it. Whether it's storytelling, whether it's providing leadership in, in, in. Here's how I would do it if I were you, if I could, you know, go back in time. Here's how I would have done it. Here's how you can do it. Here are the people to go to, etc, here are resources to look at. So I think as A, as a, as somebody who's looking at cohort management, I think you look at all the levers you can pull from the team that you have, the knowledge base that you have, the resources you have, and you say to yourself, okay, if I have X number of categories, let's say it's four categories of different types of producers, how can I make it my time that I spend with my producers most effective? And how can I use the knowledge base that I have to help my producers who are up and coming and really growing? So cohort management is. I'm just a huge fan, a huge fan of looking at it. And it's not meant to label people. It's meant more to give them what they need, where they are in their career at that time.

Yeah.

I mean, you can imagine. Can you imagine having, like, people coming into a sales meeting who are three years away from retirement and you've got builders in there, or unvalidated producers, as many call them, and you do, like an ambush role play scenario, somebody appears from retirement's gonna be like, really? I'm gonna spend my time here doing lowers practice. I could do this with my eyes closed. But these, you know, young folks, they really need to practice tripping over their tongue here and getting it out and practicing and getting confident and comfortable that it's not a good thing for them to hear a senior person do it. But a lot of times they've developed bad habits too. So I don't want the young people on those bad habits. So it's. Yeah, you really structure it in a way that's meant to target where they're at in their career.

Yeah, I love that. And you're right. I mean, it's one of those, where's the best place right leader can pour into them? And of course, to help them get the most out of where they're at. And I'm laughing here. And obviously, Carrie, you know this, we've talked about this, and I mentioned this on the podcast. I always joke with people, like, I get a form of this every day when I get home because I've got five kids who range from college to kindergarten. So obviously the conversations are all a bit different. And you have to be able to adapt to the fact of this person's here and this person's here, and I cannot talk to you the same way. But there's a skill with that. Right. And there's, there's challenges with that. But I think to your point, in terms of, with producers in particular in corporate management, it's the, the important word is it's effective, right? How can I be effective and efficient? And I, I was thinking of something to carry. I don't know you've ever heard this story. I know you're a Seattle Seahawks fan, right? So. Oh yeah, up there, up there in the Northwest. But there was a great story of Jimmy Johnson when he was coaching the Cowboys years ago in the 90s, in the heyday and winning Super Bowls and, and I can't remember how this all came up, but he was talking about how this was in training camp and you've got all these people and they're getting ready to make cuts, right? So again, that's a little different situation, but they got all these people and they got to cut down their final roster. He said someone that came in that was a rookie or new or whatever fell asleep in one of the team meetings and he just kind of basically said, okay, you need to go just fine, let him go. You're off the team. And the person said, what would you have done if that was Troy Aikman? And he goes, oh, would you done this? Because would you have done the same thing? And he goes, oh, if it was Troy? Because I would have came over and have been like tapped in the back of the head, hey, Troy, wake up, wake up, wake up. You know, he's a little different. Like I'm not going to fire Troy right now. He's earned the right. And the part of this is, again, in every situation, I think there are certain non optionals. Now, again, I'm joking about the Jimmy Johnson story, but just in general, there are some core things that we all do. Knowing that there are unique situations, whether it's a new unvalidated producer or as you call them, a builder, or there's someone who's there in the middle that's done some things, but they know there's a lot more in them and there's people that have a different skill to give to the agency where they're at in their career. So I think that's a, a fantastic way of looking at it. Let me ask you this, and this is. Just leave this an open question. With all of your experience, whether it's, you know, specifically in working with agencies or what you've seen in some of your consulting work, what do you think are some of the key or maybe that key frustration out there with agencies today, like one of those things to go, I see this frustration and here's some things I've seen agencies do to avoid it or reduce it.

Sure One word comes up a lot when I talk to agencies and you know, when I was in a large organization, you talk to other regional leaders and sales leaders throughout. But one word that comes up a lot is accountability. And spoken about it as in a lack of accountability. And I think there's a frustration around that. I've even had, I mean, I've had leaders say my sales leader doesn't like keeping people accountable. Okay. That's part of it. And I, you know, I, I believe we culturally think of the word accountability as negative. And it's just not. Being accountable to something is being reliable, right. Being able to, to be accountable to something. Right. So that people can have a predictable outcome. None of us like feeling as if we can rely on somebody and then find out that you can't. Right. You sort of feel left in the lurch. So I think it's, it's incumbent upon a leader to make sure that your team is aware of your goals, that everybody is rowing in the same direction. And I'm a big fan of being collaborative about it, being very open and transparent. As, as humans, we know when we're not doing well, right. We know when we're floundering. And you want, you, you, you want help in, in getting to where you need to be. You need that direction. And I think really of accountability as more about having conversations about direction, setting a course, providing the resources and having the follow up conversations, the what's working, what's not. And, and I end every one on one meeting that I, that I have with producers or have had with producers is what do you need from me? And you know, we, it's, it's a, it's a two way conversation. It's not just what I as a sales leader needed from them, it's what they also need from me. And accountability is something that we simply have to take the time to have the conversations to do. It doesn't necessarily mean, you know, whacking with, with a stick. It's, that's not negative. It's, it's having that open conversation. And I think part of it is taking the time really knowing your people as sales leaders. I think sometimes sales leaders can make the mistake and assume that everybody is motivated by the same thing. And we often think of producers motivated by money because they're in sales. And I'm not saying that they're not. Right? We, I'm sure that's, you know, a big portion of why they do what they do. However, there's a lot of other things that drive people Whether it can be recognition, it can be power, it can be the ability to give back, it can be freedom of, of schedule and flexibility of time. There's so many things. But if you don't know your folks, you don't know what's driving them. It's hard to motivate them in a positive conversation to hold them accountable to what they need to do to achieve that goal. So, yeah, I'm a big fan of making sure that you get to know your folks and you take the time to have those conversations because accountability is a huge frustration out there. But there are ways that you can help your team to become more accountable.

Yeah, Carrie, great, great response. And I, I mean, as you're saying that there's so many thoughts and notes and I want to be cognizant of our time together here. So to me, it's like this would be a great topic to go really deep on on another episode, which, hint, hint, we might just be doing more of those with Carrie and taking a specific topic and really unpacking it for you, the, the audience. But just a couple quick comments I want to make on this. First of all, I think what you're getting to is if we don't really know their why, we've talked about that before, it is harder to be accountable because we don't know what it is that drives them. And you know, going back to using my kids as a reference, like if I only talked to them when they were in trouble or I needed something from them, there'd be a reason they want to stop talking to me.

Right?

I mean, that's just common sense. It's like, oh, if dad talks to me, it's probably bad, right? And sometimes in a sales leader perspective is the only time they talk to the producers when they need something from them or they're doing something incorrect. Now maybe that's needed, but we need to have the opposite side there as well, right? Getting to know them, some of the things they want to accomplish, why that matters to them. And here's the last thing I want to share. Well, here's a quick plug too, for all the agency leaders and professionals listening. We've created and we're creating a two way promise report for our agency members. And Carrie, to your point, is that accountability goes both ways. So if we're going to ask our team to be accountable, what are our responsibilities? A leader. And do we have that written down and documented? Because sometimes they may take it for granted. So let's talk about what it is. Or maybe we Forget as leaders of what we've agreed to. Right. Which is important. It does go both ways. And the last thing I want to share is you mentioned this earlier, that the have to versus get to. I think it's true with accountability, do you have to be accountable or do you get to be accountable? And some of you might be thinking, what do you mean I don't get to be accountable? Well, here's a generic example that came to mind.

Care.

As you were saying that. And I've used some form of this before. If you were. And again, if someone was to say, listen, what I really want to do next year is for the first time ever, I have this bucket list. I want to run a marathon. Okay. So that's, this is the thing. I. Here's why I've always thought about it and I've. And I've let myself down in the past and I haven't done it, but something I've always want to accomplish before X, whatever it is. And if you just say that, let's just say here we're recording this in December and say it's next October. And you just say, and that's as far as you go. There's no accountability. But what's likely is to happen is you'll never do it. And then what do you have? Frustrations, regrets? I wish I would have done that. You know, I should have, could have, would have, versus I've committed to doing it. I know it's really important. I know the impact it'll have on me. I know how I'll feel if I would accomplish something like that. Who are the people and what are the things I can do to build accountability metrics? So I don't let myself down. And I think that's a key part of accountability, is it's not. I have to. You get to be accountable because it's going to get you to do the things and get you the results and the feelings that you've always wanted, that you've let yourself down in the past. And guess what? If you're a human being, that happens. So give yourself guardrails and support. So there's my soapbox. Carrie, on that. I want to do a couple things here and again, I want to be respectful. What hits me is. And we could talk a lot, which is fun.

Yeah, true.

So I definitely want to have you back on, but I have a couple more things I want to hit on before we go. You know, you'd mentioned obviously all your background and some successes and we could probably say, Carrie, name 10 successes and you could list them all and more. I know you're humble, but what would be one success that you've experienced that really jumps out at you that agency leaders could go, oh, I can resonate with that. And if it involves Sitkins, that's a plus too. But it doesn't have to.

Okay, okay, very good point. So I will say that one of the things we really talk about is that the 8020 rule. Right, the 80, 8020 rule and applying it to, to become successful. I, I'm, I attended a retirement party this week for one one of my previous partners. I'll give him a plug here. Duncan Kirk, amazing producer, started young in his career in, in, in England. He started back at Lloyd's and eventually came to the US So he's a Brit and we have a long standing relationship. So he retired or is retiring. At his party this week, he was one of the first producers I've worked with who completely embraced 80 20. And one of the things that I am a big fan of, I say that a lot, what I'm a fan of is the ABCY book analysis. So when you do an ABCY book analysis, you take a producer's book. Top 5% are their top accounts, 5% are A's, next 15% are B's. So that's their top 20%. The rest are C's. And then we tell people they can have a few wise in their book. Wise are like your, you know, your little pet projects, your uncle owns a business, your dad's best buddy, right. As, as a business that you insure, etc. But we just say don't turn that little, those little pets into a petting zoo because they can, they can detract. Duncan is somebody I worked with who lived it, breathed it, practiced it and I was able to hire his successor and bring that person in as a builder. He had a mentor. We brought him, we trained. I mean he was, didn't, he couldn't spell insurance when he came to us. And I look at Duncan retiring from a very, very successful career and I see his understudy, whose name is Greg, killing it and it and, and two now following this path. The, the ABCY, the 80 20, the, the, the trade down to be able to spend more time in hunting bigger, bigger clients. And I will say that during my time in la, when we introduced Sickens to go along with this same success story, I had a producer who did jumped off the cliff, didn't just say okay, I'm going to trade down a few of my c Accounts, you know, over the course of a couple of years. He just said, you know what, Carrie? I believe in this. Like, you and Roger were up there, and we, you, you told us about this, and I get it. And I did the math, and I'm at a point in my life where I can do this, right? I mean, he was, he was that he was single at the time. Now he's married and has a baby. Right. But he was at a point where he was like, I'm on the cusp. I have this huge book, but I know I could free myself up to do more.

Right?

And this is somebody who now that the year that he did it, he did his first year where he wrote over a million dollars in new revenue that year, and he's done it every year since. And it's amazing to me, when you see it in play and you support a producer in doing it and you give them the tools they need to be successful and to apply the methodology, I, I, I find great joy in that. So to see somebody from the very beginning of their career learn to do it, somebody who retired and then somebody who just jumped off the cliff and did it in the middle of their career, and they're just growing like crazy. Yeah, I think those feel like really good successes.

Amen. It's just the expression on your face. And again, I go back to the beginning of our conversation. We're so proud to have you on our team and excited to have on your team. And, and a big part of this, I talk about, you know, the mission to educate and empower and equip agencies. You know, our biggest joy is to watch agencies and professionals achieve their greatest results. And joy. Right? Like, that's what's fun. Like, wow, did you see what they accomplish? It's so cool. So it's hitting me, Carrie, we're going to find more of these moments. I have a few written down, and we're going to bring it back on the podcast, and we're going to hit a few areas because I know that agency leaders are going to go, I want to hear more about that, and we want to give you more of that. Right. That we can on this podcast to get you to think and ultimately help help your agency. Just like the situation you, you mentioned was to gain freedom. Right? Which is what a lot of people really want. What does that mean to you? So, all right, Carrie, one more question. Last question. All right, you know what's coming, because you've listened to the podcast and I mentioned this. So if the younger version of Carrie, just starting off on her career, came face to face with Carrie today and said, experienced, wise, talented. Carrie, give me one piece of advice to help me. What would it be?

I would tell her to always go with your gut. I can count, I think, you know, the number of times where I didn't go with my gut and I look back and said, oh, should have gone with my gut. Or the times that I have and I've been very thankful. And just really quickly, I know we're running out of time here. I did some research on this. I think I've heard you, I think, speak about this as well. But our. Our limbic system in our brain helps us make decisions, is actually lined right. Or it's made up of the same cells that line our gut, our limbics. So it's an actual physical reaction that happens in your body. So when you feel it, you know it. You know that, like, I better go with my gut. Go with your gut in all things. I would have tell. I would tell young Carrie that professionally, personally, like, just always go with your gut. So there you go. That's my answer.

I love it. It's great advice. And it is funny because you think about, oh, that's. That doesn't seem very scientific. Well, actually it is, which is amazing to learn. And then secondly, it typically. If you look back at your history and you go, gosh, when I did go with my gut, it's typically worked out. And when I haven't, there's always that there's a feeling. And by the way, care, I may have mentioned this before, but like, I have this. And maybe it's also a. Some form of. Of female extra sense because my wife has it so many things where early in our marriage I'd be like, oh, just because you feel that. That's whatever. And then she'd be right. So now I'm very much. She'd be like, I don't know, something's off. And I'm like, okay, tell me about it. What is it? And she's right. Right. There's definitely something with going with your gut. Well, Carrie, thanks so much for letting us get to know you better. Great value to. To the listeners out there and we will definitely have you back and we're going to tackle some specific things where you can give great value. By the way, if your agency would like to learn more you. Not just about Carrie or what we do at Sitkins, but just as far as getting your agency to become its best version possible, go to sitkins.com to learn more. About our programs and our services. We are rolling out our next programs. I'm recording this January 9th, 8th. 9th. I should know the exact date night. Thank you. January 9th. So there is still time if you're listening to this as this gets released. And we'll have this released in December. But don't wait. Obviously, we know we get to Christmas and the first of the year. We're going to have a limited time to get your agency on track to get into our programs and really get you positioned to have an incredible 20, 24 and beyond. So, Carrie, thanks again, the listeners. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again very soon. Take. The Maggie site experts are being a spot. Visit them and learn more.