The Psychology Blocking Producer Performance with Connie Kadansky

Welcome to the Agent Leader Podcast. This is the podcast for independent insurance agency leaders to raise the status quo, to improve performance, and ultimately become their best version possible. My name is Brent Kelly. I am your host. Delighted to be with you on another episode and super excited to introduce a guest today that I only recently met and was really fascinated with what she talked about, what it meant, and certainly what it means to you as independent insurance agency leaders. So today I have Connie Kodansky, who's with Exceptional Sales Performance, and I've got— hopefully I got this right, Connie, but I have you listed on your site as a sales call reluctance expert and a master certified coach. Is that correct, Connie?

Yes.

Awesome. Well, this is Connie, and Connie, I'm going to give you a proper introduction here as we go through. But I just want to say this to the audience. When I met you, we were at a private event and you brought up some conversations of things that everybody in that room, and I know that every agency leader listening right now has dealt with, of why is there reluctance or hesitations in certain areas around sales. So without further ado, Connie, what I'd like you to do right away is just tell us what you do, uh, an overall approach, and welcome to the podcast.

Well, thank you. Thank you, Brent. So 29 years ago, I was highly motivated salesperson, highly goal-oriented, and I experienced an episode of sales call reluctance, and I was taking a nap at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. I got on the internet and I found the book, The Psychology of Sales Call Reluctance, and I read that book and I I was in my living room and I threw it across the te— the floor and I said, I have sales call reluctance, which is that emotional hesitation to proactively prospect and promote. So I flew to Dallas and I went through a 3-day Fear-Free Prospecting workshop with the 2 behavioral scientists that own the trademark, sales call reluctance, and they wrote that book. And then I coached for 10 weeks with one of the behavioral scientists, Shannon Goodson, who's enjoying retirement now. And at the end of those 10 weeks, she goes, Connie, you get this. Do you want to be one of our licensees? So I bought a license and that's what I've been doing, standing on their credibility, coaching and training people and individual producers, companies, trainings, et cetera, for all these years. And then I also sell the essentials. Assessment for you that is used for pre-hire and coaching and development.

It's so interesting to me. And again, you know, one of the things that we talk about, Connie, with our members or agency leaders, and of course, producers in particular, is, well, I think we all agree they want better results, right? Like, okay, we want better results. And then, of course, behaviors associated with those results. But it really goes all the way back to beliefs. And I love when you talk about the psychology behind it. Like, what is it that's in my mind? Or what's the friction point? What's the resistance? What is it really going on of why I'm not able or wanting to do the thing that I know I need to do? You mentioned your tool, which I love to get into that. I've got, by the way, if you're watching on video, got a copy of that. But I guess, you know, just as a starting point, and this is such an open question, Connie, we could take this anywhere, is where does reluctance come from?

Well, it's reluctance can come from, you know, family, but believe it or not, the number one carriers of sales call reluctance are sales trainers and sales managers that are unintentionally, unknowingly, cluelessly contaminating the very people they intend to inspire. Speaking negative about sales, the sales profession. I had a VP of a major region that said to me after he became aware of this, he goes, Connie, I used to go into a group of orientation of new salespeople, and I would say to these new salespeople, you know, people don't like to be called on the telephone. He said I was contaminating them at the very moment they needed to be inspired. So that's where it comes from. It comes from family, but at the real crux of it, Brand, it's an untrue assumption that they are living as true. Well, so it's that untrue assumption that they're living as true that is absolutely has grips on them. It's an assumption. And you know, we're making assumptions all day long. When we get in our car, drive down the street, we're assuming people are gonna stop at the stoplight. When we go to a restaurant, we're assuming we're going to have delicious, clean, good food. However, we're also making some assumptions every day in every way that truly are holding us to patterns that can just block us, especially in sales.

You reminded me of something, Connie. I just, it hit me, and I actually tell the story to producers. And also I was like, as you just said that, I'm like, that probably wasn't a good thing. You mentioned sales leaders and sales trainers. And I, by the way, I love this guy. He really was a great sales trainer, and we had a lot of fun, but I'll never forget, he said something like at the end of my training, and this is, I was 22 years old getting in the insurance business. And he said, congratulations, ladies and gentlemen, you now get to go out in the marketplace in the wild, wild west and sell something that no one wants. They think it's way too expensive and they only use it when something really bad happens. Go have some fun. And I was like, and it was supposed to be kind of a joke, but I was like, part of me was like, What am I doing? I don't want to do this. So the word that you used is just really interesting. I mean, talk about a paradigm shift. Where are sales leaders contaminating their own water? Um, and I don't know if this is a fair question or not, Connie, but is it here? I'm making assumptions. I don't want to make assumptions, but where does that come from from sales leaders? Is it just their own, their own training, their own past? Like, why do they do that?

Well, it's kind of like multi-generational, so it passes down, it passes down. And that's why the type of call reluctance that is predominant in the insurance industry is role rejection, where people are actually rejecting their role. And it is just so frightful. I was just talking to a new producer and he thought he was supposed to go out there and he was just going to sell policies. Well, he had not been trained around the investment in a policy, you know, to go deeper. I, I define selling as solving people's problems for a profit, solving people's problems for a profit. And so it really needs to be elevated and people need to be connected to the value of insurance. I'm always just flabbergasted at the agents and that they're not aware that an insurance agent for a business and a family is in their top 5 center of influence next to their doctor and their dentist. So yes, it is really helping them realize that they are an integral part of a thriving family. And a thriving business.

Yeah. You know, Connie, I think sometimes, um, and especially with this audience, I think most people go, oh, I, I kind of know that. But I think we forget, um, that in this business, I mean, you're exactly right. In fact, we talk about, you know, who's on your trusted advisor team with the client, right? They'd probably say your attorney or your accountant, your CPA, right? And you think of these things of high-level noble professions that people think so much of, but yet they'll devalue themselves. Well, I'm, I hear this all the time and I catch it now. Oh, I'm just an insurance agent. Well, you said it.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, I just, interesting as you said that, in fact, I reminded me, it reminds me of a quote that I share often. If you don't place a high value on yourself, rest assured the world will not raise the price. And it's true. And I'm just an insurance agent, or I just do this. And the truth of it is, is the fact that what they deal with in terms of financial stability oftentimes is way more than an accountant. You're talking millions of dollars and credibility that goes in with that. So again, I'd love to get your vantage point. And again, maybe this comes from generational trauma, but why is the insurance profession, in your opinion, Why do people devalue themselves so much? Where does that hesitancy come from?

Well, because they're identifying with the negative. They're identifying with the used car sales stereotype. And it is so unfair. I mean, in every industry from doctors to attorneys, there are rascals in the business. So it's really orienting themselves to recognize their value. And going back to that, you know, having a good value proposition where, you know, people go to a networking event, oh, I sell insurance. Well, you know, I partner with companies to make sure that they have XYZ to really have a good networking conversation. But a lot of people do not, and it is It just is sad. It's so sad. It's so unnecessary.

Yeah, it's a great, great point. And yeah, there are some, there are some shady individuals, right? In any industry, including the insurance industry. But, you know, it's funny because I'll ask a group of agents or producers, I said, do you truly believe that your clients are better off after doing business with you and your agency? And they'll say, well, yeah. I'm like, and what are you scared about? Like if you really believe in that, I mean, if they say no, that's not a necessarily indictment on you. It's the fact that what you do is still valuable, right? Your value doesn't come from someone else saying no to you, which maybe I want to hear more from you on. You're, you're, you're the expert here. And I would love to talk a little bit about this, which I know you know well. And I'll lead into this question because I believe that awareness creates better action, right? So often we do things and we're not really aware of why. And what I love about— you mentioned your assessment, so I'd love for you to share kind of where that came from, what you've learned from it, outcomes. Again, you can take it wherever you want, Connie, but like when you were sharing in the room and you went through specific examples of an awareness test that you do, an assessment, and what that means, it is so, so powerful. So I would love for you to maybe share about your assessment and again, just what you've learned in the process of working with people using it.

So yes, it's the sales preference questionnaire. It's very comprehensive that measures the 16 types of sales call reluctance, the emotional hesitation. And here's what's fascinating, Brent. Telephobia is only one type. And I overcame it in one morning in my office. Where, and so it's used in pre-hire across the industries. Have hundreds of clients in different, in different industries. And most importantly in the insurance industry, because in order to succeed in the insurance industry, they need to be having consistent meetings and appointments with prospects. And so it helps the, it is, it's used in the pre, in the interviewing process. To find out. Now, there's no candidate that comes 100% developed, and what I like about your message is that the companies need to be able to and invested in developing their people. And so when employer uses this SPQ assessment, then they can decide, is this something that we can work somebody through, or is this just not going to be successful for the candidate or for us. And so, I mean, I could go on forever in that regard as far as the usefulness there.

Well, we'll dive more into it because I think it, again, it's interesting. One thing that I know it resonated with you, but I do believe that the number one role of an agency leader is to grow and develop your number one asset, your people. And there is a bit in our industry, I won't say there is, it exists, that, well, they just kind of are who they are. And, you know, And to me, this is about player development. And just to show again, I know some people are audio-only listeners, but here's just a quick snapshot with the colors that Connie had on your, on your, your assessment and some of the feedback you got. And I think one of the questions that came up was like, well, if they're a red here, are they just not worth it? Well, your answer obviously is it depends, but like my first question, my specific question is, can people improve? Can they actually change in these areas?

Absolutely. Yes. If they are motivated, meaning if they have the physical and psychological energy to do the job, and if they are really emotionally connected to being successful, and on this assessment, we measure that in the motivational and the goal orientation, and are they coachable? And so, and then if they are, however, there are some people that the yielder is the number one type of call relect and it's the most costly. So the Yielder behavior, we measure behavior. Personality is involved in everything, but this measure is behavior when it comes to business development. And people with the Yielder tendencies and personality, they are good at getting in the door. They're good at building relationships, but oftentimes they're too nice. To close the deal. Now, with that yielder behavior, we have measured top producers for over 45 years, and I can tell you that they, when they go in, they're looking to lead the client and not please the client or please the prospect. So, and they can be trained, they can become aware. And you were talking about, you know, the number one thing is awareness and education, and then they start really regulating and self-managing their emotions, and they can build the capacity to be good, consistent producers.

You know, Connie, I, I love when I hear things, my brain thinks in analogies. So I don't know if this will resonate or not, but I was thinking through, and this is, my wife has done this, my kids have done this, but like from a health perspective, like you go get like a an assessment, right, in a different area, and you get all these different things. And like, if you're not feeling well, you're like, I don't even know where to begin. Like, I just don't feel right. Something's off. And then all of a sudden you do an assessment, you go, oh my gosh, it's these two things that are causing me apparently not to feel well. Now I know what I need to do to begin to fix that or improve that. And I see that a lot in your assessment, like of all these things of, well, I got this guy or gal and I, A, do I hire them? Right, or if they're in my firm, what do I do? And what hit me is this assessment gives you specific areas of, like you just mentioned, a yielder. Well, now I know what it is. Now I know where and how to train. Is that how you, those areas of how you use the assessment, or again, what's your like stance? So you get one of these back and then you look at it and what are you looking for? How do you diagnose assessments and then what do you do next?

Well, on the assessment, it's color-coded. So green is where the money's at. Yellow is situational. Or cautionary, and red is like the red light on the dashboard of your car. So any of your listeners, if they're driving down the freeway and that red light comes on, do they just keep driving? Or you can blow up your engine, right? You pull over and you check under the hood. And so with those behaviors, you really look at it. And when people assess with me, I will provide them very specific questions to go back to their candidate to ascertain, is this something we can coach and development this individual through? And then when people— now again, I keep reminding, I've been in this for years and years— is that when people use the SPQ and they choose to hire that producer, they can ramp them up. 3 months quicker because they're not guessing. And a lot of employers, you might get a kick out of this, is they'll hire somebody, they see something that they don't really like, and they go, they go under the honeymoon effect. Oh my gosh, I've committed. I don't want to look. I'm ignoring this. And I say, no, you need to nip that behavior in the bud immediately. And do not allow that behavior and coach around it, role play around it so that you're just, that you're catching it right there. And so that is where the call reluctance, and I even have people share this assessment with your new hire. You never share it with a candidate unless you hire them. And then say, hey, review this, come back to me, let's talk about it. What did you notice? What have you learned from this? And oftentimes just taking the assessment, they're already starting to change behaviors. Now they're more, they're more aware, but it takes, it takes some good coaching and development in those areas too.

Yeah. You know, Connie, I don't know if any of the listeners are thinking this. It came up in the room a couple of times, like, well, can people lie on this thing?

Well, yes, there's no assessment that's 100% valid, but the reason this one is so well received is we assess and have a measurement for embellishment and positive posturing, choosing answers they believe to be most desirable. And so we catch that. It's one of the measurements. So, and then I can tell if an assessment has been skewed, and oftentimes by looking at the resume, looking at the job description. Again, it's not, I can create some questions to really go back to that candidate and let's find out what's going on here.

Yeah, I, I want to make sure I threw that out there because I know that sometimes the back of people's minds, and you addressed that really well, um, during the event last week. And so I want to make sure it's like, wait a second, like, no, this thing's pretty foolproof and it's interesting. And I don't want to share too much about me, but I might have taken an assessment of some kind like 25 years ago, and part of it said, Brent, I don't know if you were being 100% transparent. I was like, really, me? Uh, because again, you want to look better. Right. Uh, to people. And so it's nice these assessments kind of find those gaps of where they're at. I know there's a lot of data and things on the assessment, and so it doesn't have to be on it, but maybe it is. But Connie, from your perspective and all the years of work that you've done, are there any specific traits or characteristics that you see most important in a high-level salesperson or producer?

Yes. So number one, to be able to be motivated and goal-oriented, to have the capacity to do the outreach. And then their goal level, do they really want to succeed? And then that Yielder Call reluctance, the lower the better, because people with that Yielder behavior, they have a tendency to even hear from a prospect something that they just are, want to question, but they're not comfortable addressing it. And then people with that Yielder behavior often get a lot of counterfeit yeses. Somebody that does not have that behavior is able to, you know, professionally bring it forward. It seems like you're unsure here. If you hear it like, oh yeah, let's set up a time to follow up. You know, it's like, okay, do I put this in my calendar in pen or pencil? You know, just to kind of do that. And so there's a lot of ways to address that, but the yilder call reluctance and then coachability. When you bring somebody into your agency, you want them to really follow your system. And if they are really high, there's a measurement on their coachability. And if they're scoring as to be not coachable, some managers can really manage through that, nip it in the bud, and others can't. But when you get the combination of a high yielder and a high oppositional, meaning that they're they're not that coachable, you've got a project on your hands because they tell you what they'll do and they don't do it. They do it their way.

That's super powerful. And maybe this is just the inverse of what you said, but you know, talking about red flags, because I, I think there was one question, I forgot the exact one that came up in the meeting. It was like, well, if this is red, should we even look at them? You know, and I think your answer was, well, not necessarily, but like, is there anything in particular that when you see, you mentioned that light on the dashboard that you're like, these you really gotta pay attention to?

Yes. You really have to pay attention to motivation, goal level. And we have a brake and an accelerator score. The brake score is how much they're holding themselves back. And that's an overall measurement. And if that brake score. The other day I had a candidate come through, they had 51% of their energy on the accelerator and 49% of their energy on the brake. How fast are they going to get out of the parking lot? So they have toxic levels of this call reluctance. That's a, that's a major, major red light.

Interesting. So I know you work with people all over and you've got a number of success stories. So this is your chance to brag a bit, Connie, because I know you've probably got many of these stories. But, you know, when you look at a candidate or someone that you're working with and they were here and all of a sudden they realized a few things and they had some conversations with you and began to improve some of these and they got to here. Share a story or two where tangibly, here's what happened. Here's who they were and here's what they became.

Well, that's where I get my dopamine hit. So I mostly coach males, you know, men that come to me, and I'm going to share 3 quick ones. So a young attorney that works for a merger acquisition firm that is required to call businesses to find out, do they want to be acquired, etc. And at the end of a coaching session, he's wiping away tears. And also he is elated because we debunked something that was not— that an assumption that just had him so stuck, and the evidence did not support this assumption that he was making. It collapsed, and then we reframed it. And then a CFO, so he's used to talking and having people listen to him. Well, guess what? Now he's in a completely different industry making outreach, reach to attorneys. And again, just wiping away a few tears, and I mean literally, and also just stunned at how he was able to recognize what he was telling himself was not true because he was so caught up in his CFO reputation and he was just so worried he was going to ruin his reputation. So we reframed that. And then right now I'm working with a former naval officer. I just love this guy. I like them all. And he has 50 5-star reviews and He was— he's not comfortable reaching out to these people who love and support him. He goes, I could have 200 if I actually ask for it. And again, his head is down and he's like, but we were able to debunk that and collapse it. And that evidence that he was so sure what it was did not support his assumption. So those are the 3 most current ones. And I just, it requires some follow-up. It requires some, you know, reinforcement. And, but I am confident that these 3 are going to be just wildly successful.

I can see why you get dopamine hits. I made a note, Connie. I was like, it's like, I don't know. This is, I'm making a tagline for you. You probably have a way better one, but I'm like, what Connie does is is create breakthroughs that have been holding people back from their best version for far too long.

Yeah. Yeah. And my tagline is I help people get their ask, ASK, in gear.

I love that. That's a good play on words. I love that. It's very good. Well, and I think so much, again, we could go all over here, but like, just, I'm a big believer and I've learned this in my own coaching programs because I have them too. You know, I have assumptions and certain contexts or paradigms of the world that may not be correct. And because you live in that area, like all the stuff you do, it holds you back. So if I'm hearing from you correctly, it's like I had this false realization or poor context or unfair paradigm, whatever term you want to use. And once I realized that wasn't accurate, my whole world opened up. Yeah.

And you know, I know one of the things that you say, when it comes out of your mouth, they doubt it. When it comes out of their mouth, it's true. And so it's the same way with my coach. It really, truly creating that psychological safe place where they are, it's coming out of their mouth. And then I'll say, do you think it's true? And then there's this long, long pause. And even if they say, well, it's partially true. Well, we can still work with it as it is partially true. And it just, it is, it's an, I call it enlightenment. They're enlightening themselves. And that's what is so powerful and precious because now they can reorient. They reorient themselves.

Yeah, it's, I think I can ask this question cuz I'm a guy, so I feel okay. But, and I know I'm not trying to like just make this a male-female thing, but you said you coach a lot of, a lot of men. And one thing I can say, and this is true for both genders, but certainly for men, like there could be ego that gets in the way of excellence. And something I always say to groups, don't, don't allow your ego to get in the way of excellence. Meaning, well, that's just who I am and that's what I'm gonna do and whatever, and you can't tell me and all this. And I dunno if there's a magic sauce to this, but I'm curious in your work with, in particular males, could be females too, but like, how have you found a way to break maybe some of that down? Because to get to those, those shifts, like you gotta, gotta own the fact that you've got some insecurities in there and be okay with that.

Well, I, number one, I promise not to interrupt them. So I will never interrupt until ever. So we create that dynamic when they feel that they need me to. Give them another question, they tell me, but also I tell them, and it's something about me, I guess, is just, I'll say, you don't need to impress me because I'm already impressed. I already believe in you. I mean, and I honestly do. And so there's no need to try to impress me. So just come at this. And then also, you know, in the private one-on-ones, I'll say, if you need to close your eyes, and I meet with people on Zoom and I said, if you close your eyes, I'm going to close my eyes. And so then when they close their eyes and oftentimes they'll even lower their head. And so I want them, this is the inner game that we're working on, that internal mechanisms. And so that if, and it's really my responsibility to create that trust. So I profess confidentiality. Profess confidentiality. And so when they can truly, and, and, you know, and then sometimes what happens is if there's so much ego, they start uncovering these untrue assumptions and it scares them. And so they'll go, I'm just gonna do it. And so what that tells me is they're at their capacity, so I don't force it. Because they're scaring themselves with these untrue assumptions that are starting to really, really cause that anxiety. And so that's when we just gently stop and then we'll see if they're ready to go forward another time.

That's powerful. That's very powerful. Well, we're going to put it in the show notes of how to get a hold of you because I know I've got agency leaders that are like, I think she could help my team or this person, right? Hey, do we bring this person in or can we coach them better? Whatever that may be. So I want to make sure we give you time to do that. But before that, I'm going to ask just a very general question. So the average agency leader, right? Just your, again, in my, and this is any firm, but I mean the average leader that goes, gosh, I don't even know where to start. I got these salespeople. I do want to help them. I do want the best for them. I want them to get better. And maybe I've been going about this the wrong way. Is there any just simple practical tip you could share with them and maybe something they could consider or do that would be a good first step to try to tap into this salesperson?

Well, the first step is to assess them using the assessment as a coaching and development tool, how they can help the producer help themselves.

Yeah.

So, because it all comes down to diagnostic to find out, because a lot of times people are flabbergasted at what the results are. And so it's having the courage to diagnose and people think, you know, what is the cost of not diagnosing them? And I've had agency owners that have had producers for 2 years that are absolutely failing and they don't want to, they just are scared. I don't know what it is.

Yeah.

You know, I have consultants that will come to me that are consulting and say, man, and we have somebody that has not produced. I mean, and the agency owner just drags their feet. And so it's really a coaching them about what are you assuming that what might you be assuming is causing you from taking action? And I'm sure you're more aware of that than I am, but it really comes down to, you know, am I willing to, you know, like somebody that has a sore back and won't go to the doctor, it doesn't get better. Call reluctance does not get better. I always say that sales call reluctance is nothing to be embarrassed about. Living with it needlessly is.

Oh, that's powerful. Write that down, everybody. It's, it's so good. You know, one of the phrases I share, I think I've shared on this podcast before, um, to leaders, and boy, I have to say this to myself many times, is do not complain about that which you tolerate. And it's like, well, this and this and this. And it's like, well, are you allowing it? Well, yeah. Well, I kind of know what you said, Connie. I'll say it in a meaner way. Like, well then do it or stop talking about it.

You know, I know you talk about culture, right? And how to develop a culture. I had an agency owner that said his definition of culture is, what am I tolerating?

Hmm.

And so when it comes to your sales team, what is your culture in your sales team is what are you tolerating? That's your culture.

That's really good. Yeah, really, really good. Where, you know, Connie, again, people listening and going, this is interesting. Maybe I want to get one of these diagnostics. I want to get the assessment. I, you know, maybe, maybe hire Connie to help some of my people, my team, because I want to, I really do want to help them. Where and how can they find you, Connie?

Well, on LinkedIn, Connie Kodansky for sure. And then Exceptional Sales. And then also, guess what? I answer my phone. So you can always call me. My phone number is very prominent on my website. And then I have a contact page. So it's just, don't be call reluctant. Give me a call. Let's talk. And I always ease in, you know, is just pilot one or two, get a feel for it and, and go from there.

So, so the first action step to beat call reluctance is to pick up the phone and call Connie. And then you've got the first step. You're already putting it in action. So, well, again, we'll put, put in the show notes, how to contact you, your website and all that as well. But again, I love what you talk about and you represent because again, it does very much align with what we do, which is helping people be their best version possible. And there's some of those things that are sometimes just hidden within or just need to be fleshed out. If we could just get there, right? There's that great version of someone waiting. And, um, I love the fact that you do that. So I really appreciate you coming on here. And I have one more question. And this one, you can take this one wherever. This is really about you and your experience. It doesn't have to be about sales or call reluctance or any of that kind of stuff, unless you want it to be. But here's my question, and this is going to sound a little bit strange, but here we go. Imagine that today, later today, I know you're in Phoenix, right? So probably a nice warm day. You go outside for a walk and you happen to bump into the younger, just starting her career version of Connie. And this younger version of you who's just starting her career, not nearly as wise and been through as many experiences as you have today. She looks at you and says, older, wiser, awesome version of Connie. I have 30 seconds. Could you give me one piece of advice to help me as I move forward? What's the one piece of advice you'd give the younger version of Connie?

Is to make everything you want to do an experiment. Because when we make it an experiment, where it just makes it lighter, it makes it easier, it makes it funner. And, and yeah, and make it a fascinating experiment. And then we will observe the experiment, and we will make changes from the experiment.

That alone is a paradigm shift, right? Just that thought process, which obviously alludes to so much that you talked about today. Make everything an experiment, which I just thought about that. It just, it takes some of the pressure off and allows you to really learn and grow from it. That's really good. Well, Connie, it's been an absolute pleasure to meet you, obviously, last week, and then have you on the podcast to share all the things that you're doing. And again, please reach out to Connie, go find her, pick up your phone and call her. I've got, again, working with so many agencies and producers, it really does come down to so much of the psychology of how we think and our paradigm and what you do, Connie, makes a huge difference. And I appreciate you being here and sharing so many important nuggets today.

Thank you. Thank you.

Well, hey, thanks for being a listener. If you like this show, give it a like, a follow, a share, a subscribe, whatever that stuff is. Uh, we're always looking to grow the audience and I appreciate you being a part of this community and we look forward to talking to you again soon. So thank you and I wish you all the best to your success. Hey there, agent leader. Brent Kelly here. Want to take just a few seconds to remind you that now is the time to create your true best version possible agency. If you go to sitkins.com/bookacall, sitkins.com/bookacall, Book a call. We'll get to know more about your agency, conduct an agency assessment, and provide your agency with a customized plan to help you avoid some of the pitfalls, frustrations, challenges, and roadblocks to get your agency to true ultimate freedom and become its best version possible. It all starts by going to sitkins.com/bookacall.