Turn the Crank on Employee Engagment with Sadie Bauman

Welcome to the Agent Leader Podcast. This is the podcast for independent insurance agency leaders to learn, to think, to challenge the status quo, and to ultimately become their best version possible. My name is Brent Kelly. I am your host. So excited to be with you on this episode and super excited to have a tremendous guest with me today, all the way from another country. Right, Sadie?

Right.

Not, not too far, but Sadie Bowman. And I was trying to ask Sadie what her exact title should be. And I decided I was going to call her head coach. Uh, Sadie Bowman with me with IC3. And one of the things that we'll talk to Sadie about today is employee engagement amongst many other things. And, uh, Sadie, without further ado, I'm just going to welcome you in officially to the Agent Leader Podcast.

Thank you, Brent. It's really great to be here.

Now, Sadie, I like to start off with this, and I mentioned, you know, you're the head coach, IC3. What is that? Who are you? All these things. And like I said, there's so many unique things that we'll get in today, but I know you and your firm have provided such value to the independent insurance world outside of other firms as well, but certainly a lot in the independent insurance agency world. So if you would, Sadie, just give me a background. Um, who are you? What your experience, a little about the firm. I'll just leave it wide open to you.

Okay. Thank you. Actually, I started my career in the insurance industry, believe it or not, over 40 years ago. I know you're thinking I must have been an infant.

Yeah. You were a baby. So you started as a baby?

Yes, I started as a baby.

Yeah.

So, um, I started on the company side. I worked for Royal Insurance or RSA. It was known as Royal Insurance back then. I had, I started out as a commercial property casualty underwriter. I did that for a number of years, and then I took on the role of regional marketing coordinator. While I was there, I was able to achieve my fellowship with the Insurance Institute of Canada and a risk management diploma. And also in this role, when I was the marketing coordinator, I was involved in a lot of training of our, our staff and our brokers. And I really discovered then that was when my nerdiness finally came in. That's when I really discovered it is that I had a real passion around training. So at that time, I actually quit Royal Insurance and I started a training business. So what we did, I had a partner, and what we did was we offered training to insurance professionals, primarily brokers. You call them agents, we call them brokers, and I was really working a lot with helping people to achieve their designations, like the CAVE program, or helping them get licensed. And we developed a ton of programs of our own workshops where we help people to get a better handle on what this wording is all about and an application of the wording, what's covered, what's not covered, that type of stuff. So then Rick came along and we started working together and I started working with IC3. Then I got introduced to the employee engagement programs, and I started doing some more research into, like, Gallup studies and such. And it was like I found a new passion. I really enjoy helping clients to measure and improve the engagement of their employees. So that's basically where I am today.

And, you know, a couple parts here I think we're going to highlight on this conversation. One is certainly I want to hear more about, you know, some of the things you've learned about engagement. We've had many conversations in the past over that. And I know you've worked even with some of our firms and been very helpful just understanding what that means and what it looks like. And so there's going to be a lot there. And then I definitely want to dive into your, you said you're kind of a technical nerd side, you know, looking at coverage forms and just so the audience knows, we had a conversation prior to officially recording and I'm like, we need more people like that, that actually dive into the policies and some of the language and the application of it. So I'd like to hit both parts of this. And maybe if we could say to kind of start with the engagement and go from there. And you mentioned that you've been recently diving into some of the Gallup studies. And I know we've looked at some of those and borrowed information from you all on that. But I'm curious, in terms of engagement and other things, what have you been learning from what your research has been showing in some of these Gallup studies in terms of engagement?

It's pretty disturbing results. What I'm seeing is like the Gallup research, they do a workplace study every year. And the most recent one they've come up with is they actually described the last decade as a lost decade. Engagement of employees has been declining, and it's really, it's in a pretty sorry state right now. In North America, we're finding that only 31% of employees are engaged at work. That sounds really bad, and it is really bad, but it's actually better than the worldwide results, which are like 21%. Of people engaged in the world. It's really very, it's disturbing. And then 52% are considered to be disengaged. Now in our world, and I know you've heard about quiet quitters, these are the quiet quitters. Now, I mean, really the quiet quitters are people, they come to work every day, they work hard, they get their work done, but they're gone at 4:30 and they're They basically, they're there to do their job. So in, in the real world, you can't really complain too much about that. So they are really the people who probably employers would see their greatest opportunity to really get these people excited about coming to work. They're also the ones that are most at risk, the ones that probably could be easily swayed to another organization. So the quiet quitters in my mind are always the ones that I would see as an employer, the ones that I would really want to be focused on wanting to engage and get them more interested and excited about our organization and working for us. There's 17% of the group of employees in North America who they call actively disengaged. So these are the people who are, well, they're probably badmouthing your organization. They're speaking to others, their peers, coworkers, and they're having probably having a real negative impact on the day-to-day within the office. Like they're, they're creating chaos. We call them terrorists and we really try to help and coach our clients around dealing with the terrorists because the terrorists are having such a negative impact overall on their organization. But those studies, like, they're coming up with, with stats like 44% of employees in North America would, would say that they're struggling every day and 50% of them are experiencing stress. 57% are saying that it's a really good time to start looking for another job. 50% are actually doing that.

So half the workforce is looking for another job.

I know, right? It's, it's really disturbing. And basically, if you can get your people more engaged, the chances of them having these negative feelings are reduced significantly. Gallup is saying that in 2024, $138 billion were lost in productivity. This is worldwide, mind you, but they're saying if we could get a fully engaged workplace, we could add $9.6 trillion to the global GDP. $9.6 trillion. It's crazy.

I'm not great at math, Sadie. I just know it's a very large number.

Yeah, exactly. I'm not great at math either. And I see that as a very large number. Yes. Even that $438 billion in lost productivity. It's scary.

Well, there's some places I'd like to go and get your perspective on this. And this is fascinating, by the way, because I had heard some of these numbers, but I mean, the way that you describe them is interesting to me. So again, like, 31% engaged. And I, if I'm wrong here, tell me, but I think about these that they think bigger than just the day-to-day. They're, they're probably promoters or culture positive.

Yes, they're promoting. Yes, they are speaking positively about the organization. If someone were to say, hey, I'm looking for a job, you know, like, what do you guys, what's, what's it like working for your company? What's the culture like there? They're gonna speak positively. They're going to, and We can actually predict, well, like when we start doing these measurements, we can actually take these numbers and predict the future behavior of these people. Really? Because yes, it's a leading indicator. If these people are engaged right now, the chances of them speaking positively in the future is highly increased.

Interesting.

Interesting. Yeah.

I mean, so that's the good news. The bad news is that's only a third of the workforce or a third of that, right?

It is. And the bad, other bad news is that that 17%, those terrorist people, we can predict their future behavior as well. So, you know, we don't really, we don't like the fact that they're out there speaking negatively about the organization.

Yeah. So I do want to get to that middle 52% because it seems like, and you said this, like there's a great opportunity, right? So you've got this top that's like, hey, we We love the firm, we love the organization, we love the agency, we love the brokerage, whatever term we're using, right? And we're promoted. And then the other that are like, I'm going to start a little bit with the negative. Whether it's whether you've seen firms you've worked with, Sadie, or maybe just from your own research, what are some things that these organizations can do or should do if you've got 17% of people that are, this is my word, you said terrorist, toxic. Right. And, you know, I know there's multiple answers, but like, what, what's the strategy? What's the plan? What, what, what do, what do agencies do? What do brokers do on this?

Well, what I've seen, like, back not that long ago at IC3, we did a little bit of a survey, like a telephone survey with a number of present and past clients. And the big thing that really came out loud and clear with all of them was culture. Their culture was really, they were struggling. And it seems that that struggle really goes all the way back to COVID. I mean, it probably prior to, but COVID really sort of set a chain of events into motion that led to things like issues around keeping your staff, retaining your top talent, and attracting top talent. So basically what it boiled down to at the time was that we found out that what they were finding, okay, what they were finding was they had the Gallup study showed that only 27% of managers were, were engaged at work, 27%, and 50% of them didn't even know, didn't have any clarity around what they do at work every day. They didn't really know what was expected of them. And apparently that 50%, that filters down. It cascades down into the frontline team. They don't really know what's expected of them. 50% don't know what's expected of them at work and how they're being measured on a day-to-day basis. That's pretty scary. And it's 70% of the change that you will see in engagement of people is all based on the interaction that they have with their leader every day. So the leader, that's the thing. If you really want to get to the heart of things, it has to start with the leaders. The leaders need, a lot of the leaders have been put in that position without any training at all. You know, they've worked their way up through the ranks and they've been promoted. So now they're a leader. Nobody, they don't have any idea how to deal with teams. And then they went through this whole COVID thing where their teams were all over the place. They weren't even in the same location all the time. So they were having a really hard time. Engagement, well, like 27% managers, leaders. So it's really, it was disturbing for them. So what's the best thing to do? Get into training. First of all, train, get into training and developing the leaders. That's the best thing that any company can do. If they want to have some success. Train their leaders and then go to the next level and drop that down to the frontline team. The kids need training too. Lots of training. I mean, this stuff, this is a very technical world that we work in. They need a lot of training. They need structured career paths. They need to know this is what I'm doing today and this is what I'm, this is where I'm leading. This is where I'm going. And they're helping me to get there by providing me with the tools and equipment and training and coaching and all that stuff. And having a really good performance management system in place so that people do know, like, this is what I'm expected to do every day. This is how I'm being measured. This is what happens if I don't meet the standards, you know, the rewards and consequences. So that's basically it. It really boils down to that. Development.

Some comments I want to make and then maybe some more questions, but if I got this right, you said 55% of the managers don't know like their role or responsibilities. Is that?

They don't have clarity. They don't have clarity in what is expected of them every day. And they have not been offered any training or development in help in preparing them to take on the role. So they don't know how to deal with people. They don't even know how to communicate with their people to get the best out of them.

It's interesting to say just because, you know, from, from my perspective, and I've shared this in this podcast before, but I mean, um, and this isn't obviously 100% and it's a bit of a stereotype, but there's truth to it. Um, I guess that's why it's a stereotype is that the majority of agency leaders were often really good producers who worked their way up, right? And they go from selling a lot of insurance very successfully to leading a team. And those are very different skill sets.

Absolutely. In fact, This day and age, good salespeople are really, really hard to come by. So you're really better off to let those people do their best thing. I mean, that's their natural talent. And finding out what your natural talent is a big thing for sure. But being able to use it every day, I mean, you're probably killing these people by forcing them to lead a team.

I mean, I've had many conversations, especially with sales leaders of midsize growing insurance firms, and it's almost like they'll say, hey, off the record, like, I just want to go back and sell. Right? And that's where I make the most of my money. That's where I get the enjoyment. And then I get a few people that I go, I really love leading the team. And, and I'm going to say this, I know this is a bit controversial, maybe not to you, Sadie, but some of the listeners is like, I think the player coach model, which is still prevalent, is not a great model for a lot of brokers and agency. What I mean by that is, well, I sold insurance, I still have my book, I do this, but I also have the responsibility for the team. And I know there can be some crossover in that, but again, those are very different skill sets.

They are.

And it's, it's very frustrating for a lot of people and it's very frustrating for the team members.

Yes. That was a funny thing too that came out of the Gallup study was that they did a comparison of genders and they found that the female leaders were more engaged than the male leaders, not at the executive level. For some reason. I'm not really sure exactly what the logic is there. At the executive level, that didn't apply. But at that management level, that middle management level, the women, the females were a lot more engaged and a lot more positive about their future and development opportunities and growth opportunities than the males were. Unique, different.

Why do you think that is? I know, I don't know if you have an answer to that or not. I'm curious.

Well, it's, I think that in some cases they found that the females, they, it's almost like a nurturing thing, I think. So they, they take on that nurturing role and they really enjoy helping and developing these frontline team, their, their team. Unfortunately, the other side of it was the female leaders were also suffering more from burnout. And probably because of exactly the same thing.

Makes sense.

The nurturing side.

That makes sense. And, you know, just one more thing I want to share back to the leader, because it's really, it's really, really helpful, insightful, uh, Sadie, but I do have, and again, this isn't to pick on insurance firms, but you'll see a lot of it is, hey, I have some broken people. I need you to fix them. There's a bit of that mentality, right? And typically we do a lot of sales training, as you know, it's like these 8 salespeople need help. Okay. Well, maybe they do, right? They probably do. But, you know, one of the things I always tell leaders is, hey, what is the growth and development plan that you have for your most important asset, your people? And I would add on to that, what is the growth and development plan for you as a leader? I don't know. I don't really need any. And, and there are a lot of, again, there's a lot of things that we see. I, I'm a sports fan by nature, but I mean, I can't think of how many times I've seen, why is this great athlete not a good coach? Or why was this average player a great coach? Well, again, I think comes back because they're very different skillset.

Coaching is a very different skillset. It really is. And like you said, with the, um, the salespeople that they are great salespeople and then they get promoted into this role. Once they're there, it feels like it is a promotion, right? And they're probably making a different, they're being paid differently. And there's no stress or anguish around having to produce in order to make sure that they achieve that salary anymore. So they don't feel like going back to selling again because they feel like they're being demoted. But, but they're still not really ready, like you say, to take on the role because they haven't been prepared for it. But they feel senior because they've been in the role of a producer for so long that they don't feel like admitting, I think, that they need help, that they need support, that they need development. But they do. They really do. I mean, it came out loud and clear in the, in the World Study.

Interesting. Yeah. I think that's a great point too, because, and I know this is a bit cliché, but it's true. Leadership isn't a title. And as I learned from John Maxwell, it's true. It's influence. And I think a lot of the salespeople, again, tremendous, and again, just what lights them up and great influence in the community and with centers of influence. And of course, their key clients and building relationships, maybe not great influence with people on their team because it requires a different skill set as you talk about and patience. And it can be very frustrating, but yeah, but I like the title of senior executive, whatever, right? Or whatever that title might be. And by the way, the highest paid profession in the world is sales.

Yeah, right?

So, so it's, there is something that comes, I think, with that, some form of ego or title or whatever, but just sit back and go, okay, regardless of all that, like, what do I really love? What am I passionate about? What lights me up? And I think that's super, super important. So I want to go all the way back to the Gallup if I could, because I mentioned kind of the, the, the culture killers, that middle part. And what did you call them? What's the name for the 52%?

I call them quiet quitters.

Okay. Yeah. You say they're, they're, they're not actively disengaged. They're passively disengaged. Is that right?

They're kind of, they're sort of, yes, passively disengaged would be probably the best way because they're not, they're not, they're not saying bad things about the company. It's okay. It's a job. I get to go there every day. I get to make a pretty decent living. Um, I'm okay with it. But the thing about it is when you're only there, in that passive state, if anyone came along and said, hey, would you be interested in making an extra whatever? It doesn't have to be a lot, maybe $5,000 a year. Interested? Hmm. Yeah, that might be interesting. So they're, they're at risk or the organization is at risk of losing this group. And it is a pretty big group and they have, there's so much opportunity. It would take so little. To get this 52% into the engaged group. All you'd have to do is start doing things like listening, you know, listen to them a little bit, be there for them, get to know who they are and what their natural talents are, and let them use those natural talents every day. Like, help them develop a career plan. Where do you want to go from here? How can we help you do that? You know, like, what kind of training can we offer you? So these are things that, that people really want, particularly the younger people, that Gen Z group, they're different. They're different than the millennials. I mean, people complained about the millennials for years. Well, now we got Gen Z jumping in there and the Gen Z people are even more interested in having like a little flexibility at work, a better work-life balance. They want to know that they're heard, that they're being, and that they're, they have the same kind of, um, interests and values of the organization that they're working for. They want to know they're making a difference. They definitely want their wellbeing to be looked after and they want to be cared about.

Yeah.

It's so, yeah.

No, it's, it's interesting. I, and I don't, I don't know the exact age demographics, but I said my oldest daughter's 22. I know she's a millennial.

I think she also said, she says that.

So she's a Z. Okay. I didn't even know.

So yeah, she's a Z.

And then my youngest is 8. So maybe that's a whole different generation now. Who knows?

That would, that would be, I think the, the Gen Zs start around 17 to like maybe 24, 25, something like that.

Okay. That's interesting.

So it's that, it's that younger group then, and people are really like, you know, oh, they can't communicate. They're so used to their devices and blah, blah, blah. And probably some of that stuff does apply. But it's really just a matter of getting to know them and getting to know what their interests are, the same as it was for every other generation.

Well, and I hope agency listeners, agency leaders listening to this, just think about that. I mean, the number on there, and it may be different for your firm, but I mean, you're talking 50%-ish that you've got this, that yeah, they show up and things seem to be okay and they're mainly doing their work. And so I guess I'll take it, it's okay. But as you said, can easily be plucked. And you've probably got some really good talent in there that if you could just give them a little something, a little bit more. And I don't know if this is right, because I know it's leadership listening, but I mean, sometimes it's like, you don't always have to fix something, but just hear them, listen to them a little bit. And that goes so far.

It really does. They want to know they're being heard. I mean, that's where the survey really comes into play. From our standpoint, that's one of the things that we can say, like, you know, to encourage the staff, the employees to really participate in the survey. It's like, this is your opportunity. Like, this is your opportunity to be heard. We want to hear from you. We want you to be honest. We want to make things better. And that really, that in itself goes a long way.

Cindy, I, the question that hits me, because I've seen, you know, the survey that you did and the value in it, and I do want to transition a bit to your the other stuff you're working on, because I find that fascinating too, with some of the technical stuff. Before I go there with the survey, like, to me, there's just such value in learning and hearing where people are at. But I also know that leaders are often very hesitant to do that.

Yes.

I mean, I think I know the answer, but I don't want to assume anything. What have you seen?

It often means change. Oh, I mean, we have like 24 questions on this survey and it's scattered amongst 8 different categories. That, you know, deal with things like the culture, the leadership, having the right people in the right jobs. Do you have a performance management system? How does it work? Accountability. What do you do when people do or do not meet with the standards that have been set in the performance management? If things come out of that survey indicating that, you know, people have no idea what is expected of them at work, or they don't think that doesn't matter if I do a good job or a bad job. It doesn't matter one way or the other. Or my leader doesn't really walk the talk. They tell me that this is the values of this organization, or what the leader is doing this, this, and this, which is totally conflicting with these. So this kind of stuff, when it shows up in the surveys, and it will, you know, like not all of it, obviously, they're going to have little issues here and there that are going to show up, which mean If you're going to ask the questions, you need to go and debrief with the teams, find out exactly what it means, you know, like what's behind those scores and come up with an action plan. And if you don't, then you shouldn't do the survey. If you're not prepared to do something, you shouldn't do the survey. So I think the people who are reluctant are not sure that they're ready. To do something. And we don't think they should do a survey if they're not ready to do something.

Sure. Yeah. Thanks for doing the survey and then nothing changed, right? Or whatever that is.

Well, that's very, that's, that's something that's even going to increase the disengagement.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, well, this is playing pretend, so to speak. And I, and again, maybe I'm off here, but I would say it hit me as you were saying that, Sadie, like, you know, we deal obviously with agency and leaders. but also their sales teams. And I know one of the things we talk about for the sales teams is around retention is asking for referrals or asking basically kind of how are we doing? And there's always that fear of like, what if they tell us something we don't want to hear? And I think a lot of that is true with agency leaders of like, well, if you do this, you're probably going to hear some things that you don't like, but at the same time, like any of us who ever experienced growth, it requires a little pain. And ownership and acknowledgement. And, you know, and again, I'm just spitballing this, but if it came to my team and said, listen, we are doing our best as leaders, but we also know we have blind spots. We also know we're missing the mark in certain areas and we want to be the best for you. And just, and here's what we're doing. Like, is there, is there some truth in some of that where agencies fear hearing things they don't want to hear?

I mean, that really comes down to really human nature. Right? I mean, if you're even in a partnership with your, your wife or husband, whatever, I mean, change is scary for a lot of people.

Yeah.

Yeah. And also accepting your flaws is not easy. I found that's one of the things that is really difficult with sharing these results with the leadership team. When a leader, when there might be a specific leader that stands out as really having some very low scores, like the engagement of their team is very low, where other leaders maybe are extremely high scores. That's, and that's very, you know, it's heartbreaking for some of them. And I've seen that. I mean, it's like some of the senior leaders don't even want to completely share. Like there's one, you've seen the report, like the report that actually has everybody on the same report. So you're seeing scores for everybody for each one of the questions. So you're really seeing like, holy cow, I'm, I'm really doing bad compared to my peers. They don't like to share all of that with everyone unless they at least get to a place where they're comfortable with sharing information like that. And a lot of our, a lot of have been there. They're there. They're, it's like, here it is. It's up on the wall.

Yeah.

Yeah. And if you, if you don't want to do better, go talk to Sally. She's got a great, look at her scores. She's got a big team and her scores are very good. You guys should put your heads together.

Yeah, it's good. It's, well, again, to me, I, I, I'm just a big believer. Um, and that's why I think your survey again is so valuable because like I would say people want to take action, but the best actions come from the greatest awareness. And sometimes we do things that aren't even, you know, well, I'll do this because I'm doing something. Yeah. But is it the right thing? And, and sometimes again, you put that in front of your, if you're able to say, hey, listen, I own it and I struggle here, but I really want to get better. Well, now you know.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, but there, but there has to be some of that, like, you know, and by the way, in my role in talking to leaders, it's not always easy to say, hey, listen, one of the biggest problems of your firm is you.

Yeah, I know.

Well, who wants to hear that, right?

No one wants to hear that.

But, but at the same time, shockingly, the best organizations, again, that's like, hey, we're not perfect. And I know I've got flaws, but we're always thinking ahead. We're always trying to make progress. We're looking at getting better. And to me, I see that too, going back to one of the first things you said is that also models that from down the chain. It's like, it's okay if we have flaws as long as we continue to own them and move forward versus let's hide everything.

Accountability is key. It's like recognizing, it's knowing who you are. It's taking ownership for who you are. And working to improve. I mean, there's some things that this is who I am. I don't think this is, I could work really hard at this, but this is who I am. There are some things that that is what it is. But I mean, there's a lot of things from the leadership standpoint on just little things that with development, with training, with support, like you can learn these things and you can improve these things.

Well, and I think too, you're right. There's certain things, yeah, that I'm not wired. I don't do well. We talked about some of that before we started, you know, before we started recording this. but also might allow you to go, well, you know what, you know who is a great person for this? That person on my team.

Exactly.

So that's, that's important too. So I do want to transition a little bit here and give you enough time because I know we were talking before about some of the things that you're passionate about and that you're diving into. And you told me, well, this won't be a secret anymore that you're kind of an, I'll use your word. I think you said insurance nerd in different ways. So what are things that you're nerding out in right now, Sadie, that you're seeing? In terms of the insurance world?

Yes, so definitely I am a nerd. I do, I really do like to dig into a wording and really discover like, what does it mean with this exclusion and what's the impact and all that? So, yes, I'm definitely a nerd. And that's one of the reasons why dealing with the data that I collect with employee engagement surveys is very appealing to me as well. The nerdy thing you're talking about right now is the new program that I've been working with one of our clients where he is an MGA for, he sells broker E&O insurance too. So he's, he sells to brokers his program. So part of the program is he wants to help his clients, the brokers, to reduce their E&O exposure. So part of the program is training. That he offers to the staff of the brokerage. So he's purchased this platform, and I'm part of a team where we take an actual case, an E&O case where a broker's been sued for something to do with, you know, a claim wasn't covered or so on. The case is going to deal with a successful suit. There are successful suits where the, where the broker has done all the right things. Their documentation has been up to speed. The communication has been up to speed. They've done everything a good broker should do, a proper broker should do, professional should do. And they've succeeded in the courts. And then you've got the cases where honestly, it's unbelievable. Some of them that have failed miserably. and I mean, there's like millions of dollars of loss that were not covered by policy, the policy that the broker sold the client. So this is what you don't do. So the whole idea is to take that case and extract the learning from it. Like, this is the right thing to do, and this broker succeeded in the courts. This is not the right thing to do, and as a result, this broker failed in the courts, and his E&O policy had to kick in. So the whole idea is to try to get the learning, extract the learning for the people who are going to be actually selling insurance products out there to the world.

Yeah, it's, well, like I said, it's so, so important. And I was joking with you, you know, I said in my former life as an agent, you know, it's like, oh, I got to dive into the policy. I'm like, oh, but it's kind of an important thing, right? To say the least. So, and I don't want to put you on the spot here, but from what you, that work you've been doing, anything that jumps out at you from like just really amazing learning where maybe you've seen brokers, agencies not apply or do something really well, either pro or con?

Well, I don't know. Like, I think that one of the big things is, um, really helping people to identify what their natural strengths are. I think it's something that if you were just to ask the odd person, what do you think your greatest natural talent is? I think a lot of people have a hard time coming up with what that is, but there is a way to kind of determine that. Like I say, I was well into my 30s before I discovered that my natural talent really was the training. When I started doing that, it was like, wow, a light came on, you know, it was like, I couldn't believe it. I had such a passion for it. And that made me realize that I could take that same passion and apply it to things like this. So I think, and that gave me so much, such great reward in my work. I really enjoyed my work and I still do to this day. I love, I love work. And I think that's so important.

Well, I mean, going back to the very first thing you said on engagement, like there's probably a pretty direct corollary to those that are promoters that go, I show up and this excites me. And those are the people that aren't, you know, they show up and they're, they're asking questions and how do we develop this more? And how do we make this better? And what's working and what's not where that middle group is like, yeah, I do my job.

Yeah, I know. I know. And that's not fair. And there's a lot of people out there. Well, 52% is what the survey shows. But if you talk to your people, like just peers, you hear it. It's like, yeah, it's a job. It's a job.

And again, we could go a whole other tangent here, but body language has such a part of this. You know, in my role, being able to work with leaders on coaching calls or do large training programs, even whether I'm in person or many times on a screen like this, You can see the physiology change pretty quickly and there's a lean in and the face lights up and you're like, excitement. Wait a second. Tell me more about this. And it's like, okay, how do we get you to do more of that?

Right. Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's, it's not brain surgery, your brain surgeon work. It's, it's easy stuff to figure out really is if they, if you know what it is that turns their crank, give them more of that.

Right. And, you know, I guess goes back to, I guess, kind of put a bow on this from a leadership perspective. Like, you know, there's so much, and Sadie, thank you so much for sharing so much of that, because I think it's so powerful. Just sitting back and you see this, like, how can I put my most important asset, my people, in the best position to win?

Exactly.

And there's a lot of things to think about with that. I get it. But sometimes we get such into the technical that we forget, hey, these are human beings. And they have interests and passions and wants and desires and likes and dislikes. And if we could start to just sit back and listen, not that it's going to be a perfect transition, but wait a second. Oh, I really noticed something there. And by the way, that turns that 52% into that top end pretty quickly.

Exactly. That's the thing about the 52%. They're sitting on the fence. They don't really know. They're just going into work every day. They could turn into your detractors. They could turn into the people who don't want to be there at all, or they could turn into your promoters, the people who love being there every day and speak positively about you. And it's really in the hands of the leaders. Yeah.

Yeah. It's great. Cindy, I have one final question and I don't know that I prepared you for this. So now I'm going to make you nervous. Are you ready? Maybe not. No, you've, this has been great. It's a question I do ask every person that comes on this podcast. And so I'll give you some time to think about it, but Again, you've been doing this for a while. You started as a toddler or a baby. We talked about earlier.

Yeah, I was a baby.

But if, if, here's a question, if you were to run into, I know this is extremely silly and hypothetical, but if you were to run into the Sadie who was just starting her career a while back, the younger version of Sadie, not as experienced and wise as the current Sadie, but younger. And the younger Sadie looked at you and said, wise, all-knowing, experienced Sadie, if you could give that younger version of you one piece of advice, one thing to consider, one thing to think about, what would you tell the younger version of you?

The only thing I could really think about there is that idea of uncovering my natural talent. I really didn't know. I honestly didn't know. And I mean, I was working for quite a long time before it really occurred to me and before I really found out. That the passion that I had around, well, training was really when it hit me, was that when I started doing that, it was like I was just in my glory. I was so excited. I was excited and I couldn't believe that I was actually being paid to do this thing that I enjoy doing so much. So if I could talk to my younger self, I would say do everything you can right now to kind of figure out if you, if it's like take a course, go to a program, talk to people, get a coach, something, but find out what it is that makes you tick and do it. Do as much of it as you can.

Yeah, that's great. Great advice. And I'm so glad you discovered that and you apply that. And again, I don't want to, I don't want to add or take away much for anything you said, cause it's so good, but I just, it, I mean, what hit me on that, I think a lot of people, maybe if I'm wrong here, I kind of feel a pressure that, well, I should think this way, or I should do these things this way because whether it's expected by an organization or a person or a parent or whatever, when deep down there's like, oh, but I really like that. And they kind of push it away for maybe too long. Is that, I don't know, do you see any of that?

Yes. Yes, I do. So many people do what they think is expected of them. And it's, I mean, I did it. You probably did it too. Oh, in your, in your young life. It's something that you, it, you grow into who you are and then you just, you just have to be you and not what you, what other people expect you to be.

Yeah. I, yeah, I, I don't think I shared with the audience here, but you know, and again, I, I enjoyed being an insurance producer. I spent 15 years doing it and I think I was pretty good at it. but I started doing some speaking things to grow my business and different things. And I'm like creating some content. And I would go to, um, events and talk to people and not that they would ask for advice, but I would share. I found myself started doing some levels of coaching. I didn't even know it was coaching. And I was like, that's what I want to do.

Right.

And people are like, well, how could you leave a book of business and you're making good money and you could basically coach the rest of your life and all this kind of stuff, which I was like, no, but I want to go do that. And again, everybody's got their own journey, and I know there's fears and doubts of it, but I think that last part, Sadie, I mean, this all ties together back to employee engagement.

It does.

It's super, super important.

I mean, that's when I, I had a secure, a really secure, good job with a large insurance company. They loved me. And when I found out this thing about training that I love so much, and I really did like underwriting too, don't get me wrong. That was something that really did turn my crank. But training, oh my, I could not believe it. I quit the job. And then there were people that said that to me, like, are you crazy? What are you thinking? This is secure. It's a good job. It's, you know, they really like you there. You're going to, you're going to have a future with them. You can retire with them. The thoughts of retiring with in this role. It almost made me want to cry. I did what I really wanted to do.

Yeah. Wow. I love that.

I didn't regret it at all.

Yeah. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad you did and I'm glad you joined me. So Sadie, where can, again, if people want to reach out to you just to connect, say hello, where's the best place people can find you? Email or if your website, whatever, whatever's best, wherever you—

Oh, we have a website.

Yeah.

ic3.ca. Sadie@ic3.ca.

Perfect. Perfect. Well, again, if you're fascinated like I am with Sadie and what she's doing, reach out to her, say hello, and get to know more about her and what she's doing. So Sadie, it's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast, Sprint Delight. I knew it'd be a really, really interesting interview and I'd learn a ton and I did. So thank you so much.

Thank you, Brent. It was really interesting for me too. Thank you so much for having me.

Absolutely. Well, to the agency leader listener out there, I wish you and your firm all the best in your success. Thanks for being a listener.

Thanks so much.

Hey there, agent leader. Brent Kelly here. Want to take just a few seconds to remind you that now is the time to create your true best version possible agency. If you go to sitkins.com/bookacall, sitkins.com/bookacall, we'll get to know more about your agency, conduct an agency assessment, and provide your agency with a customized plan to help you avoid some of the pitfalls, frustrations, challenges, and roadblocks to get your agency to true ultimate freedom and become its best version possible. It all starts by going to sitkins.com/bookacall.