Rodeo - Consumers Don't Want a Subscription?

So that's what we built with Rodeo was what we call like a flexible subscription, where the goal of it is not to get every customer pushed into a subscription, because again, we don't. As a consumer, that is not the best experience. And as a brand, what you're trying to deliver in order to drive loyalty and repeat purchases is providing a great experience that provides predictable revenue for the brand, but also a great experience that keeps the customer coming back and buying more and more. And so one of the things I talk about is the goal is not a subscription. The goal is for a customer to buy repeatedly. And sometimes a subscription is the right mechanism for that, but for a lot of people it's not. And so what you need is to have a series of different tools that enable you to meet the person where they are and in the right way that it is for them to consume.

This is the story of a brand, a podcast that helps people learn the story behind their favorite consumer products. I'm Ramon Vela and I believe that people want to know more about the brands and products they purchase. So each week I interview the founder of a consumer brand, Unpack their story, their products, their mission, so you can decide which products are worth buying and which brands are worth supporting. Today we interview Ben Fisher, co founder.

And CEO of Rodeo.

Rodeo is a consumer centric subscription platform for Challenger CPG brands. Consumers don't want a subscription, they want your product and when they need it. With Rodeo, you can turn transactional customers into subscribers with a bespoke platform that offers middle ground flexibility tuned to your customers buying patterns and products. Now this is an interesting interview in that we talk about this amazing platform.

That he has that I just described to you.

But we also talk a lot about his journey as an entrepreneur, the pressures involved, the anxiety involved. We even get into a conversation about his experience with ketamine therapy and whether it was helpful. We talk about how to achieve a Zen like performance.

We also discuss different perspectives on what.

It means to be a high achiever. He even breaks down his morning routine.

And we talk of course more about.

The pressures to perform.

Now this quite frankly is, is an interview unlike you're really going to hear other places because we kind of, we kind of seamlessly mix in both this really deep conversation about mental health, emotional.

Health, achievements and so forth.

But we also talk about this really amazing platform. So I hope you like this type of interview. I really do because I love to.

Hear things that are below the surface.

Not just all the things that we.

Normally hear, but the things that really go on.

Anyhow, thank you. I hope you really enjoy this interview.

So join me, Ramon Vela and Ben Fisher as we break down the inside story of rodeo on the story of a brand. Alright guys, here's the deal. I have a gift for you from our primary sponsor Sendlion. They are giving away their online course, their e commerce academy, Email and SMS marketing. This course is gives you a step by step playbook to driving more revenue and retention with email marketing and SMS. This is normally a $500 package but for our listeners it's entirely free when you get started with your 14 day free trial of Sendlane. Now when you do that, chat into their support team and let them know you're one of our listeners to get full access to hours of course content that will help you make make email marketing your number one growth engine. Now I'm a big fan of Sendlane, of the platform of the people over at Sendlane and what they're doing for e commerce merchants like you. So head over to storybrandgift.com that's three words, storybrandgift.com to get the details and sign up for your free trial and gift. Hey everyone, this is Ramon Vella and this is another episode of the story of a Brand.

Like always we have an amazing guest and brand that we're going to fe feature on today's show but before we do let me do a quick shout out and moment of gratefulness for myself actually or about a vendor from me and that is a company called Sendline. Now they are an amazing technology platform, email and sms. They're co founded by an expert in email. He wanted to create a platform that was easy for people to use but.

Yes, advanced enough for experts.

And you should go check it out because they've got the one of the best customer service platforms that I've ever seen as well. And so they're an amazing company. But the thing I want to point out is at a time where a lot of companies are pulling back their marketing etc they are making commitments like supporting this show. They supported me throughout 2022, now they're doing it throughout 2023 and it's a big financial commitment on their end. That's why I wear their hats. If you're watching the video I, I also usually wear their shirts actually this is one of their shirts but their logos down here and, and I really appreciate it because they are in support of my mission which is to bring founders and consumers slash listeners together through the founder's voice, through their values, through their passion through their love for their products and for the people they serve and, and get people excited about it because people love stories. They love to hear about great products or great platforms.

So they really believe in that there.

They've put their money where their mouth is and they're helping brands in their way by supporting the show. So really do me a favors. I couldn't do the show without them. So go Visit their website thin lane.com or you can go to my unique URL which is storybrand gift.com storybrand gift. And as you. Well, as the name implies, there's a little message there for my listeners as well as a free gift. If you try their platform for a free 14 day trial, they have a gift worth 500. So go check that out and support those who support the show. Now, without further ado, let's get to the main event. I have with me Ben Fisher, co founder and CEO of Rodeo. Welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks so much for having me.

Well, everyone out there, we've actually been talking like probably longer than we probably should have for like a good 15, 20 minutes already we recorded. So, you know, maybe we'll release some of that. We talked about a few things that maybe we might get a little bit into as well. But this is going to be a really interesting show because Ben is just an amazing individual and it's got a great company, but he's just, he's got so much to share. I think that will be really beneficial to a lot of folks. So why don't we begin with my favorite question and that is the question of gratefulness. And just for everyone out there, gratefulness is a great way to reduce stress, relieve anxiety, stop the worrying. It's hard to feel sad and lonely and, you know, depressed or anxious when you are filled with gratefulness. It's just a wonderful tool. I use it every day. I use a meditative practice, but you can do journaling, you can do all sorts of things around gratefulness and you know, try it if you're feeling, you know, anxious or worried, I think you're really going to be happy you did. But it also gratefulness question also allows us to get to know who we're interviewing. So Ben, if you don't mind, share a moment or a memory when someone did something for you that just made you feel grateful because it meant that they believed in you, your vision or your potential.

It's funny, when we were talking about gratefulness, I think obviously my brain went to, you know, people and, and experiences that I'm grateful for. But now I'm thinking about a specific example of something that happened. This is top of mind for me, so I'll just, I'll just use it. You know, I say I recently did ketamine therapy, and I don't know for how many listeners who are familiar with with ketamine therapy, but it was an experience. I'm very grateful that I did, and it was one that I was not sure about going into it, but, you know, part of that process was actually getting more in touch with things that I am grateful for in my life. And as an entrepreneur, I've been, say, pushing really hard for years. And so there was sort of like a phase in my life where I just was, you know, taking a look at, on one hand, all my dreams and then, and all the things I want to accomplish. And then was not really taking. Being kind to myself and looking at things like what, what have you accomplished up until this point? And so this gratefulness, I think that that was a moment has been an opportunity for me to reflect. That might not been the answer that you were expecting. Not that you're expecting an answer, but that's, that's kind of what just came top of mind. Beyond that, my, my parents and my friends and family. But that's an exact moment.

Yeah. Well, I think that's a great, that's a wonderful example and on so many different levels. And I appreciate you sharing that. And why don't we kind of take it from there a little bit? I mean, and maybe we, we, maybe we talk a little bit like in your, from your perspective, you know, what were, what, what were the challenges from before or what were the challenges leading up to, you know, choosing ketamine as a, as, as a way? Because something you said earlier, I just thought was just really, really important. And I'll share, just for the audience, I'll share just something I wrote down that I thought it was a comment that you made that I thought was really interesting. There's a lot of founders who listen to the show, a lot of people who run businesses. And we are, we live in a society. And it's not just us, it's just everyone. Everyone in society. I think we're, we're taught to constantly push ourselves, constantly look to achieve this, constantly look for approval, constantly look for, you know, likes or comments or, you know, if you look at it from the social media standpoint and entrepreneurs, many times we take that and we take it to the nth degree because we got to start our businesses. We got to, you Know, do so much, but we're also victims of that type of thinking. And we, and like I said, we take it to a whole different level. And you said something like being a masochist hasn't, hasn't served me well or something to that effect. Yeah, I mean, walk me through that comment. And, and I mean, describe first of all, like, you know, obviously the life of entrepreneur is hard. I mean, walk me through that comment.

Yeah, I think when, when I said that what I was, you know, what was coming out of that was talking about, you know, as entrepreneurs we're always, and this isn't just entrepreneurs, obviously. This is probably in some, in some ways most people, there's always a gap between what you want and where you are. And that gap keeps, you know, and that, that level, that bar keeps moving over time naturally. And I think that probably at a fairly young age and I think, you know, part of the way that I learned just in my life, whether it was like in school and sports to push myself, was being like, I can, I can, I can push harder. So it's sort of like almost ingraining a level of dissatisfaction of, nope, I can, even if I accomplish my goal, just push a little bit harder and I'll, you know, there was a lot of emphasis around performance and just trying to fulfill potential. And I think there is obviously a very, there, there's a healthy piece to that. And I think that what can become less clear over time especially, yeah, like when it becomes like, like a part of your, not necessarily your identity, but like just the way you like operate. It's easy. And if you're surrounded by other, we'll call it high achievers or people who are, you know, it's a bit of a pressure cooker. And I live in New York City and I've been doing, we'll call it professionally like post college building companies for about 12 years. And so there's always this level of, and I think with the Internet we're hyper aware of how well other people are doing, regardless whether or not that reflects reality. You know, you are seeing and being exposed to sort of the exceptions to a lot of, a lot of rules or a lot of experiences. And so you're always comparing yourself to these, either the Cinderella story or the people or versions of a story that are just, you know, it's like, wow, that's possible. And that, you know, what's it going to take for me to continue to push to get there? And so, you know, I think part of what I realized and I think Covid accelerated. Part of this was this level, this experience of like, isolation. And I've always been a computer nerd. And I would say I'm like half. Half introvert, half extrovert. But for part of what was surprising, even with COVID was the. Yeah, I guess I. I became just by nature of what happened, much more isolated and a lot more my own thoughts. And, you know, I think my release that I hadn't even realized in the past was surrounding myself with people and getting out of myself and thinking less about myself in my situation. And that just was sort of taken away by situation. And so, you know, I looked around and I think I just got kind of got to a piece where I was just like, I was unhappy with a lot of my performance and I was in. I was just very critical to the point where I wasn't doing better through that, through that analysis. I was in fact, over, you know, in my own head. And I think that's perhaps where the distinction can be drawn is like, if there is a certain level of critique or self criticism, if you want to call it self criticism, that is healthy because that's how you grow and that's how you learn. But there's a point where either through the way that you critique yourself or perhaps just like the sheer volume of it, where it's no longer healthy. And in fact, you're. You're making your performance worse, which then embeds sort of like a negative feedback back loop because then you're like, well, shit, like, I'm not performing to the level that I expect and want for myself. And then you're criticizing yourself for that. And sometimes it's even for me personally, obviously I'm speaking to myself right now. It's like annoyed that I'm annoyed with myself, right? Where I'm like, I don't. I'm not this person. I don't want to complain. I want to solve. I want to be like, solution oriented and not, you know, dwelling. Like, I'm in a lot of ways extremely fortunate, and I'm not. That is not lost to me. But, you know, I think as any human being, life, regardless of your situation, it has ups and downs and is difficult. And so that, that was what was behind that masochist thing where I just. I think I became extremely aware of the. The narrative, the narrative and the story that I was repeating in my head. And it was, it was not serving me. And a lot of it was like an extension of early learned behaviors. Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, definitely. And you Know, and the thing that I kind of was that I wanted to lead to in this particular topic because I think it's instructive for other folks is I think a lot of people, founders, in particular entrepreneurs, business people who start businesses, I think face many of the same challenges. And I think I would also include like salespeople in that too. But, you know, they face the same challenges. But all we see as like the roadmap is to, you know, work the 80 hours and 100 hours, whatever a week to sleep in the office, to do all sorts of stuff, you know what I mean, that are just outrageous and you know, bad for our health, whatever, even, you know, you know, trying to, to, you know, not doing well for our health, basically. But. And that's the roadmap that we see. You know, I often think that, you know, in some ways we, we are as our, at our vayner nature as entrepreneurs, masochists, because life is hard and difficult as it is, then we as individuals put ourselves in a position voluntarily to not only just take what everyday normal life brings us, but then put all these challenges in front of us even more so than, than the normal individual. And that's the life that we choose. But the roadmap is, is where I feel like we can do some work, like we can change the road map a little bit. Honestly, I kind of feel deep and, and maybe you do too. Is there a way to achieve the things that you want to achieve? Like, you know, get that gap that you mentioned from, you know, what you want to, to where it is. Can you reach that gap or cross that chasm and still be healthy and still be, you know, and still look out for your own mental or emotional health? Because quite frankly, just looking at, I mean we see all the social media stuff, but the reality of it is that a lot of business fail a lot of people. You have emotional mental health issues because of the, the, the, the, the things that they go through. Is there a way to create a new road map? What do you think?

I mean, I'd say intellectually absolutely right. I think mental health has become. I think, I'm trying to remember when it, I don't want to say it came in vogue, but it was probably like six years ago. It was talked a lot more openly in tech. In tech in particular. I think there was like, probably. I think there were a series of stories about people who were having a really hard time. And you know, I think that shifted the conversation at. Shifted the conversation. And you know, I do think a lot of People, let me take a step back. So your question was, is there a way to have a. We'll call it a healthy relationship or journey to. We'll call it performance? Yeah, I'm trying to think of how you would describe that. I've met a number of really accomplished entrepreneurs who, not to say they were. They always had a healthy relationship with themselves or with their work, but certainly they. They have reached a place in their career where they do. Now. The challenge there oftentimes is, well, were they able to have a healthy relationship throughout? You know, like, were they able to accomplish that much while also being. Being healthy? Or was it that they were a masochist up to a certain point, realized a certain level of success, and then we're kind of able to. I don't want to say certainly not coast, but they were able to, like, leverage that. I don't know. And I think for a lot of us, we have to figure out that relationship on the way up. And so, you know, there. There are certain people in my life who've always just been sort of naturally fairly stoic. Not to say that they don't have, like, the duck inside that's paddling really fast, and they're just sort of calm on the outside. But I've had really honest conversations over. Over the course of my life with people who've expressed like, their own. I don't call it like demons, but just like this. This. This level of dissatisfaction and what they've done about it. You know, I think the things that I've taken from those conversations of people who I feel like have created at least, like, a healthier balance than me. And I think that's. There I go again, comparing myself to other people. These people are chiller than me. But I do think that the thing that the common thread of what people have told me is a lot of it's about has been like, the moments where they've shifted their focus from themselves and onto other people, whether that's through serving other people, serving their customers, you know, caring about something larger than themselves. And for some entrepreneurs, that's. That's. We'll call it the mission of the company. But I would say the common. The common themes are really about not focusing on your own ego, but focusing on how can you provide value to other people. You know, combine that with other things around, like exercise, gratitude. Feels like a shopping list. It's like, these are all the things you need to do in order to, like, accomplish Zen, like performance. But I've thought a lot about that, certainly over the last several years, I've thought a lot about it. And so those, you know, a lot of these are, I would say, even like fairly well known things that people talk about publicly. Meditation's another one. And, and possibly I think maybe the, the biggest thing you can do too is proximity to people who have a healthy relationship with their work. Because I think it's, it can oftentimes be difficult to model something that you don't know yourself. And so if you can find people in your community, whether that's online or in person, surrounding yourself with other people who sort of are both, they're, they're, they kind of have the relationship with their work as well as we'll call it like the, the, the positives of their work, the successes and just surrounding yourself with people like that.

Yeah, I really do. You hit on a couple of different things there. And one of the things that you mentioned is, you know, how can you, what does that look like to have something that have a journey that is not going to be masochistic and it's not going to ruin your mental health. And you know, I think we also have to be mindful that what we're doing in many ways is, is abnormal in a way in that, you know, there is a, a healthy amount of stress, there is a healthy amount of, I don't know, I don't know how else to say it, like obsession with getting your goal, you know, reaching your goal. But I think you can find a way to do that without, you know, like basically hurting yourself, hurting your relationships, hurting, you know, your mental health, not only your physical health, but your mental health. I think there's a way to do that. And you know, you and I were talking a little bit about this before in that, you know, I've often felt like the more mindful. And I actually had someone ask me this, like when I practice sort of secular Buddhism. And I mix that with some other philosophies that I find empowering. And, and so I do practice like a certain level of detachment sometimes to do to things. Like I focus more on the doing versus just the results. And some people say, well, if you detach too much or if you're too mindful or if you're looking for too much peace, does that gonna make you less aggressive or less competitive or less, you know, hungry to get like what you're after? And I don't know, I kind of look at examples, I kind of look at the fact that in ancient times, you know, great warriors, like samurai warriors practice, you know, Zen Buddhism and, and things and similar to that or in India the, it was a warrior class that was actually taught how to meditate because they, they, they needed to be able to self regulate their emotions, especially in battle. I mean, and you're going into battle, I don't know how much more aggressive, you know, you can be, whether you know, you're fighting in a war. So there is a way to, to be peaceful, to have the equanimity to, to be present while at the same time being, you know, ferocious, being aggressive, you know, being, you know, and doesn't mean hurting people, but it means like having that hungry instinct, I think. So I think there's a way to do that. I, I couldn't tell you all the roadmap there, but I just know that it's, I, I believe it's possible and so I appreciate you sharing that, that component. I mean, because you have a SaaS company and you know, you're a founder and I appreciate you sharing this. On the other side of it, what are the tools that you have found like, you know, that you are, you know, employing, you know, while running the business? And, and, and by the way, like, you know, people always love to hear. I, I've been getting more and more comments on this. People love to hear morning routines. I'm not really sure why, but I think it fascinates people. So I want to know like from a SaaS founder, someone out there, and there's a lot of SaaS companies listening to the show. What do you do on a regular basis just to try to, you know, keep yourself on track, try to eliminate, you know, and I know it almost perfect. So like I'm not looking at you and saying like, hey, this guy has it all figured out. But like what do you do? And then why don't we start off like with your morning routine? Is there anything special or anything different that you do from a morning routine standpoint?

It's funny, I feel like you've asked the right person about this question because I'm very much a creature of habit. So I think at a, probably prematurely in my life I tried to optimize my lifestyle and my background's as a designer and programmer and a lot of what I did even like in, I don't know how far back this goes, but you know, I've had a virtual assistant for like probably going on 10 years now because one of the like, one thing I, I did especially early in my career is I tracked all my time. Like there was one point where on my Blog I had a public page that showed that updated every hour. Like how did my time go at the, at like at the day level, the week level, the monthly level? And every week I would analyze, I both, I would review where, how I invested my time. I would review my calendar, I would look at what were my goals for the week, what did I accomplish, what did I not, like, why? And then I would adjust. And so that was just a habit that I ingrained in myself early into my professional career. There were, I was doing parts of that on my own, I'm sure in college, in high school, but it kind of took a new, a new life when I had a lot less structure, right? Like in school you have, at least you have some structure when you're starting a company. After college I started my first company, I first started launching companies probably like a year and a half after college. I mean I built companies when I was younger in like middle school and high school. But as a, as an adult when I had, I was paying rent and I had all these responsibilities that really changed it. And what I was looking at was ways to eliminate variables. And so one of the most form like influential books I read was I will teach you to be Rich by Ramit. And it's a hokey title. And at this point probably a lot of people, a lot of your listeners have read it because now it's, you know, I think it came out in 2008. It's been around for a while. And he's like, that was one of the most influential books in the whole like a big, like I would say a core principle. That book was automation and setting it, setting, establishing a goal, working backwards. His whole point was it's not about picking stocks, it's about, you know, investing in index funds, not worrying about if the stock market's going up or down. You know, then you obviously graduate to more sophisticated levels where it's like distribution and you have like real estate. But the whole like the crux of the book was you, this does not need to be a full time job. And unless you're going to be a full time professional day trader and like you're really, really freaking good at it. It's not worth like focusing all your energy on that. And that big thing of his too was it's not about trying to save money on Starbucks. It's about recognizing, creating a budget and understanding what areas are you willing to invest money in and what things will you cut. It's not about trying to save pennies and dollars every there because Sometimes buying a start, maybe buying a Starbucks every single day, has a disproportionately positive impact on your life. And for me too, part of what I look at is time that I'm spent cooking or doing stuff is time I'm not spent investing, building my business. So I have more or less eaten the same food for about nine years. The same meals, they've evolved over time. But like I would say I've eaten the same actual exact meal in probably four year blocks over the last 10 years. And what I would do is I, at the time I had goals around fitness, I had goals around nutrition. And what I did is I hired a fitness trainer, I had a, hired a nutritionist and I had them do the math around my macros. I learned how to count like track macros. I basically figured out what's the minimum viable workout to accomplish my goals. And then what's, what's like sort of a, a anchor meal I could have. And what at the time, and I did this for probably like five and a half years, was a chipotle burrito bowl with double chicken. And you know, that was like my anchor meal. And I would have it on, my assistant would order it so I didn't have to think about ordering food. I would have it automatically placed right when I was on my way to go to the gym. So when I came out of the gym, it was ready. You know, I, you know, in terms of tools, I use a product like all the tools have changed now. Even in the last few years, a lot of really cool tools have come out. Rise is one of them. R I Z E which automatically tracks behind the scenes like all the different applications you're using. And it will show you kind of like where your time's going. I was an early, early adopter of Trello and using like Zapier as a way to consolidate everything, including emails and like events and putting them into Trello boards and then having like my assistant like sweep it so that I didn't have to go in and like monitor these things.

You know.

And there was one point where I was out of the country for work and I needed to move apartments. And so my assistant found me a new apartment. And when I came back into the country, like all my stuff had been moved and so I came into a new apartment. Like so like I went pretty far with this and that's, and I'm sure some people are probably rolling their eyes, which is perfectly fine. But part of what's always been important to me, and I even had A spreadsheet of my clothes where, like, I had very similar sort of like, outfit where I was like, okay, like, I have, like, probably 10 of the same blue shirts, dress shirts and stuff like that, and the same jeans. I still do that. Like, I find certain things I like, whether it's food or it's clothing. And I'm like, this works for me. And I think one of my, like, superpowers is that, like, I don't really have an opinion more or less about eating the same food over and over again. Does not bother me. And if I find some clothes that I like, I have no problem, you know, buying a bunch of them. And for me, it just, it removes decisions. And a lot of that's around, I think, managing my own energy and managing. And I think at this point, like, most people know that, you know, there are like, you know, Mark Zuckerberg and Barack Obama have. I think there were like, articles that came out how they wear the exact same clothes. And then, you know, I think at the time I looked at my friends like, see, I'm not crazy that I'm them. But there is. There are a lot of people who've made lifestyle choices like that, in part because there is a lot of evidence that making. Having to make a lot of decisions takes up mental and emotional, I guess, more mental energy. And so if it's something that you don't care about making the decision around, heck, get it off your plate. Right? Like, if. And so I'm always on the lookout for new tools. And like, I. I'd say, like, as an early. I'm an early adopter for most products. Not all of them stick for the habits, but the. I will tell you that when I, When I arrive at a tool, I probably have used like, 15 competitors first just to kind of figure out, like, what's the right tool for me. Yeah, that was probably more detail than you were looking for. Yeah, for me, the areas are around. And the other piece you were asking was like, morning routine. And so I would say in the last couple months, a lot of my routines have. Have changed a bit. You know, I'd referenced the, the ketamine therapy and a part of what came out of that, I kind of focused a lot on just like, what is going to help me get to a peak emotional and mental state where. And a piece of that is waking up early. I'm not a morning person. I'm again, I'm a typically, like a computer nerd who works late at night. And so this has been an adjustment for Me, but waking up early. So for early for me is around 6:37am you know, I go to the gym now around that time. I go on a walk in the morning where I meditate. And I feel like this is like one of those listicles that, where you're like, it's like that person who's like, look at all these, these things I do every single morning to be a high performer. What I will tell you is like, for me at least, it's just like a, it's a, it's a, a routine that kind of helps center me for the day. It's not prescriptive and it's not something that I've been doing for 15 years. It's something that, like, I told myself that I needed to try this on, to see which pieces of this I wanted to continue with because something needed to change. And so far all of those things have been helping and you know, so let's call it like the first 30 minutes of my day is going on a walk outside. You know, I'm breathing, I'm doing a lot around. I've learned a lot about how to change and control like around, like emotional self regulation around breathing and like exercise. And I think I, I, I had underestimated how impactful that would be for me. I intellectually knew because everyone tells you to exercise, especially if you're stressed. I think when you're stressed, it's easier, it's harder to do that in part because, like, yeah, you intellectually know it, but at the time I was like trying to optimize every moment of my day. And so I felt guilty even though I knew I shouldn't, which probably resonates with a lot of other people out there where, you know, it's, if you feel like you're not accomplishing what you want, you know, I felt guilty for creating the time and the space because I would just not be working. I'd be like sitting there thinking about how I'm not working, which, you know, looking at that, I was like, this isn't healthy. And I had friends, family who were encouraging me to kind of like to take, to take a bit of like a, we'll call it like a, a break on that to be softer. And drinking a lot of water has also been super helpful. I have this like, big can, unless someone's listening to the podcast, it's, I believe it's like 33 milliliters. And so I drink around 200 milliliters a day, which is beyond what you need. Like, I have an app that lets me track how much water I consume. And, like, the app says it hit, like, at least it's like 80. Like 80 milliliters. Yeah, but water is one of those things, I think. I. I didn't realize how dehydrated I was and how much that impacts how you feel, and it impacts hunger. And.

Yeah, I mean, it.

It.

It impacts all sorts of things. And, you know, the feeling guilty part, I just wanted to mention, you know, that's one of the. That's one of the biggest, like, challenges, I think, for a lot of people, especially entrepreneurs and. And higher overachievers, it is guilty. I mean, I've talked to so many people on the show who tell me, you know, I try to watch tv. You know, I try to watch a television show to, you know, to relax, but I feel guilty that I should be doing something right. And I even do that sometimes, too. Like, I'll. I might turn on a TV to kind of, like, let my mind wander, but. And then I'll have my laptop on my lap, you know, like, I'll be doing something. Something else. And I think those are the things that we really need to kind of like, to work on. And what I mean by that is looking at these little things that we do not as distractions from accomplishing our goal, but really kind of fueling our performance to reach our goal. Even if it feels like you're doing nothing. Like, you know, whether it's meditation or whether it's breathing or maybe it's literally just kind of just sitting there watching the clouds go by. Whatever. Like, you need to recharge your batteries. And the other thing, too, is it also just, like, I'm fascinated by business. I can. I mean, I can talk about business all the time and entrepreneurship and, you know, I love to hear people talk about other stuff. But I also know that in order to retrain, recharge my batteries in terms of my mind, I should, like, search out other things to. To learn, right? Like, I like to study music, or I like to read about things that are completely different than business. I always remember reading an article about Bill Gates, and Bill Gates said that he loves just sitting down and reading, like, Cosmopolitan or, you know, this was like, 25 years, you know, when he was still with Microsoft. But he would say, hey, I love to read Cosmopolitan because I want to know what people are doing in culture and society and so forth, because that then gave them ideas like, okay, how do I. How do I get, you know, get more people with computers on their desk? And stuff like that, you know.

Anyway, he still made it productive. He still made it productive.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like you can do different things and make them productive. But I love this list that you're, that you mentioned. But, and I, and I just wanted to point out that feeling guilty part of it. I think that's, that's really, it's really interesting. And then the other thing too is just so people know, I love this aspect that you're talking about, you know, about breathing and, or exercising to self regulate your emotions and manage your emotions. That is a tried and true, you know, piece of knowledge and, and that you're sharing. And it could be just dancing too, right? It could be dancing and music. I love to hear blues for instance, especially when I'm feeling down. It's kind of weird. Like you think, okay, blues is supposed to be sad. But I love to hear like up upbeat blues. Some BB Old BB King. There's a favorite album of his called early in the Morning or I think it's B.B. king Sings the Blues and it'1957 and I put that on and I just love the horns, I love the music and you know, like it pumps me up a little bit or if I listen to like Rage against the Machine or something like that, you know, I mean like it just, it like music has the ability to create energy and then kind of just bring, bring, you know, like change your mood a little bit. If you're feeling down, you can literally change how you feel by just simply going out and doing something, jumping jack, listening to music, dancing, whatever. But I love this so, so thank you. People always ask me for this. I'm starting to ask more and more people. They always say like hey, I would love to know what their morning routine is. So I appreciate you sharing that.

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I will say you made me think of one thing that is interesting, which is I think, you know, culturally we've, there's been a shift from, especially when, when raising kids and we've been like, I'll call it the. What's encouraged by. Call it like professionals in like child development and stuff like that is encourage or positively reinforce the effort as opposed to the result. Because what, you know, what's important there is encouraging. Encouraging children. Encouraging. Yeah. Call it small humans as well as larger humans. And you know, the result might vary but, but positively re. Reinforcing trying and by focusing on the effort and the activity, you know, that is a way to, to have, have a more positive outcome. And I think that what's interesting about that, I think it does lead to a bit of masochism. I'm saying this anecdotally. I have, I don't obviously have any evidence, I've not run a double blind study on this, but I think that just intellectually one outcome of positively reinforcing effort is, well, you know, diminishing marginal return is the reality of it. But yes, if, like, if I just keep trying, if I keep putting in more and more effort, you know, we know that we'll all get to a point where you're just exhausted, you're no longer performing. But if what you're, what you, if, if what you've learned and ingrained is I just need to keep pushing because that's going to get me the reward. And I think with a lot of us, certainly myself, it's like I very much a reinforce myself. And so some people get a lot from like external validation and reinforcement. I think one thing I learned, I'm an only child and so I had a lot of time with myself as a kid and both my parents, my dad's a clinical psychologist, my mom teaches child development. I would say a lot of my pressure to perform came from within myself because I think my parents were very kind and supportive of what? Like, like, oh, like you worked really hard and you got like, you know, a C C in math. Right. Great job. And I was like, no, that's not good enough. Right. And so for me I had that like. And I've Only I've been thinking about this over the last probably, like, five or six years as I've been talking to other friends of mine who, you know, maybe I admired them growing up and, like, they were like, top of our class. And then talking about, like, what were their internal dialogues as a kid and then what have they learned? And how has that changed now as adults, now that we're like 25 years later? And I will tell you, like, it's just been fascinating conversations because, you know, people, I think because we're also somewhat emotionally removed from that period of our life, I found that people are just really open about what was going on, both positive and the negatives. And so it's been really interesting, just like trading notes with people. And some people even just met casually in conversations like you, where we start going down a path, talking about our childhoods and what drives us. And you get some really interesting sort of magical moments where someone's just, like, sharing something like, oh, my goodness, like, I never thought of it that way. And I know a lot of people have expressed to me like they wish their parents hadn't had been more supportive or more. Been less hard, pushed them less, not push them as hard. And because then they sort of the thought or hope that then maybe they would be kinder to themselves. Like, they have a lot of. I don't want to call it trauma, but they have. We'll call it trauma, like, trauma coming out of that dynamic with, like. And what was funny is I said, like, well, my parents, for all intents and purposes, were super kind. I grew up on a tree farm in Maine, and, you know, I didn't have those issues with my parents pushing me too hard. What happened instead was I internalized a lot of frustration where I was like, why aren't my parents pushing me as hard as these other kids? Parents, right? So a lot of it was even environmental, where even though my parents were doing it the way that a lot of these other kids wish their parents behaved, the outcome was very similar, which was I was always pushing myself to, Like, I was never satisfied and really pushing myself and really hard. And so what's fascinating about that is when I share that no one has been like, oh, that makes sense. They're all, oh, my goodness, that's surprising. But then once you start talking about it, they're like, oh, wow, that. That is interesting. And so there's something interesting about that. I don't necessarily have any conclusions, but it's one of those unexpected things where I think universally, as people we all have stories from how we were raised and how we ended up the person that we are today as adults. And it's really easy to think that if only something had been different, that like maybe this personality quirk or this, this part of, of of my identity would be different. And I, I guess what I've taken from that is maybe not right. And I think it's also made. It's been a bit humbling because I'm like, well, you know, like you can have people have complete different opposite experiences and you can kind of. A lot of it comes down to your relationship with yourself too. Yeah.

And, and, and the, and the thing is too, is that we don't know. We don't know what, what it is. Like, we don't know what causes, like, why you internalize your frustrations, why, why you did that to yourself versus your parents. You know, like having your parents put a lot of pressure on you and so forth, which a lot of parents do. We don't know. I mean, we don't know why. I mean, that's the thing about humans is that we, you know, and, and, and by the way, you know, people talk about trauma, but, you know, I've heard it said that whether it's a big T trauma or small T trauma, you know, anything that changes you, like what is it? It changes the neural pathways in your brain, changes how you think any of that stuff can be considered like a small T trauma because it changes you. It changes you. And it could be something small. It can be like, for instance, when I was a kid, I grew up in, in my parents sentinels to Catholic school when. And when I was there, it was, it was the late 70s and the nuns were scary for me. They were scary.

But I remember hearing them tell this.

Story about this, this, I don't know, I must have been like in third grade or whatever. This, this story about a kid walking down the street kicking a bag. Like seeing a bag on the street, right? You know, like you're a kid, you kid, you kick trash or whatever's on the street kicking a bag. And there was a bomb in the bag and it blew up and it blew his, his, his leg off.

That's not what I thought. You're going with the story.

Well, and, but see, that's what I'm talking about. Ever since then, even today as an adult, I would never do that. Like, I see like a bag or some trash and I don't even touch it. Like, I don't, like, I remember that story and, and that's a small, very small T. Trauma thing. But the thing is, that changed me. The other thing, too, is that for.

People who have started businesses and then.

Those businesses failed, I have a ptsd, like, reaction to a lot of stuff because of my. My business back in 2008 that went under. I literally. I think I was. I think I may have mentioned this to you. I. I even, to this day, will get a letter from the irs, and before I even open it, my first reaction is, I start. I started to get a wave of fear wash over me, and I started thinking, like, oh, crap, what is this? Like, what do I, you know, what do I. Oh, what, you know, what did I do wrong? Or. And the last time that happened, I, you know, I opened the letter, of course, and there was nothing. It was just like a benign sort of announcement letter or something like that. And. But I just. Because I remember when my business was going under, I ended up owing the.

IRS a bunch of money.

And that was. You know what I mean? Like, that stuff got burned into my mind, and it changed the way I thought. And I. It still haunts me, even though intellectually, I know, hey, I'm okay. I. I don't. As far as I know, I don't know the irs, anybody.

In your defense, I've never gotten good news from the irs. I don't think anyone ever has. I think that is the. Except getting something that's benign is the exception to the rule. Yeah, that's true.

Oh, well. But honestly, from that perspective, I'm much more. You're in New York, we're in California. They're both blue states. But I'm. I'm much more worried when I get a letter from the. From the California state then, because those people are mean. Just for anyone out there. Like, you do not want to owe the state, buddy, because they will go after you right away. The IRS actually will actually work with you as compared to the state. But. Yeah, that's funny.

This episode's sponsored by the irs.

Well, I. I. Funny thing is I had a brother who worked for the irs, so it was. I hear stories he doesn't. Hasn't worked there for a long time, but, yeah, there's some interesting stories. This is fascinating. I want people, though, also to know that you run this amazing platform, and I'd love to talk a little bit about the platform just so people know. And I appreciate you. I mean, man, I really do appreciate you sharing, because a lot of people right now are struggling, and it's not easy for a lot of Folks. And not just financially, of course. There's always this fear of the recession and all sorts of other things. But you know, just from an emotional standpoint, like I. We all have been going through something the last three or four years. We're carrying a lot of anxiety, a lot of uncertainty of stress in our bodies and that certainly isn't helping just with the everyday stresses of running a business. So I appreciate you sharing all of that with us, but I do, I want people to know about your platform Rodeo. This isn't your first rodeo, as you like to mention. Sorry I stole your thunder, man. But I love that name the way you describe it, but I love the description of being sort of like the anti subscription subscription platform. Like walk us through that and walk us maybe of an overview around Rodeo.

Yeah. So I think it's worth. I'll first kind of take it. I'll zoom out a bit just around how, how I and we ended up with the business that we have today. So I think I mentioned earlier in the show, my background's as a designer and programmer. And fairly soon after college, like I. This is like 2008. So building digital products was just starting to become a thing. And so early in my career I would freelance as a Flash developer for people who remember Flash or old enough to remember Flash if I was a Flash developer and art director and ad agencies. And then I would, after freelancing I would, I would launch a product. If it didn't work, I'd go back to freelancing for a bit, save some money, launch another product. And what I found was I started off just building like, like B2B SaaS products. Ironically, some of them were around like optimization of your time. Right. Like I created or managing your subscript, your, your software subscriptions and like, you know, but what I found was like I became really interested in E commerce specifically as a way that it was a fairly straightforward business model where hey, I can build rather than building tools that help me analyze my productivity, I can build tools to help other people make more money. That's a pretty straightforward business model, right? As opposed to trying to do freemium like, like Twitter at the time or figuring out like how do you, how are you going to acquire an enormous amount of customers? What. And so I just really started focusing on problems related to E commerce and e commerce merchants. You know, one of the, one of those early businesses as a company called Carthook that my business partner had built and sold an e commerce store himself. And so he was coming from the experience as A marketer and an E commerce owner. And I was coming from the software and technical side and we worked together building that business. And I think that company we started probably like nine years ago and sold it about a year ago. I had left day to day about three years ago. But just through that experience of building Carthook, we were early in the Shopify ecosystem. And so that product specifically helped brands increase average order value of through post purchase upsells. And during that time I observed this trend of more and more brands offering product subscriptions. So it used to be that like tons and tons of digital marketers would sell like info products online, like you could download a PDF. But as drop shipping became a thing in E commerce, we saw more and more marketers moving into E commerce who were finding creative ways of trying to create recurring revenue similar to what you were seeing in B2B software. And so around that time subscriptions became a model that just more and more brands were adopting. But part of what, what I saw at my time at Cardhook was just how difficult, how great subscriptions and like the promise of recurring revenue is, but also how limited subscriptions are or rather how fragile they can be. Because the challenge with the subscription is you're automatic. Like the great part of it for a brand is you're automatically charging people's cards so you can have this compounding, compounding revenue on the consumer side. Like it's great. And I talked a little bit about my own, my own habits. Like I'm a huge subscriber to products digital and physical because I love the convenience of being able to sort of set it and forget it. But one of the things I experienced myself was man, like that's great if it's a medication where there's like a very specific unit. But for most products that you're subscribing to that are like coffee or food or whatever, your replenishment varies because of life, right? Like sometimes I'm consuming less, less coffee, sometimes I'm consuming more. Maybe I'm traveling, maybe I have friends over. And what ends up happening is like, is that probably after like the second or third month there's this disconnect between how quickly you're consuming the product and when it's being fulfilled. And that problem results in people from the brand's perspective canceling it. I'll give you an example. Last month I actually received like a family size of paper towels. I already had paper towels in my cabinets. I had no, I have no more space in my cabinet. So I now Have a freezer full of paper towels. I have like a year, year and a half worth of paper towels. And ironically, that is the problem that, that, you know, I'd say that is part of the problem that we're solving and that I was set up to solve was my solution at the time was rather than subscribe, I would create a calendar reminder with a link to the product and I'd have it set on like a frequency of like every 30 days. And so every 30 days it'd be like, do you need more coffee or do you need more of this drink? And the link would be there. And I would just go, and I'd buy it again. And I was like, you know, because I didn't. You miss emails. I, you know, it's sort of a pain to manage multiple products. And so at the time I sort of saw it and I was like, this seems like a normal problem that any consumer would have. Like, for some people, certain products are a natural subscription, but there is a substantial number of people who, they either don't want to be automatically charged and surprised by a charge. And so fast forward. After Carthook, I was consulting as a fractional CTO for subscription e commerce brands as a sort of a process for, you know, really intimately understanding, like, what's working, what's not. What are the biggest challenges and opportunities around subscription e commerce? And this idea around, how do you, how do you optimize each individual customer's lifetime value? Like, subscriptions are a great way in aggregate to optimize, but the truth is, let's say like 15%, let's just say a minority of a brand's customers. A subscription is actually a good fit for, let's say, 85% of your customers. Maybe it's buying in bulk. Maybe buying in bulk's like the ideal way. If you have like a garage and you know, you'd rather just buy more of it, have more of it on hand, rather than trying to time the replenishment. And for other people, maybe it's like my calendar example where all you need is like a reminder, and then if you're ready for it, you can buy it or not. And so that's what we built with Rodeo was what we call, like a flexible subscription, where the goal of it is not to get every customer pushed into a subscription, because again, we don't. As a consumer, that is not the best experience. And as a brand, what you're trying to deliver in order to drive loyalty and repeat purchases is providing a great experience that provides predictable Revenue for the brand, but also a great experience that keeps the customer coming back and buying more and more. And so one of the things I talk about is the goal is not a subscription. The goal is for a customer to buy repeatedly. And sometimes a subscription is the right mechanism for that, but for a lot of people it's not. And so what you need is to have like a series of different tools that enable you to sort of meet the person where they are and in the right way that it is for them to consume.

You know, I love what you just said and I was trying to write the note down. The goal is to have the consumer buy consistent, consist consistently. Right. I love that because I mean intellectually.

You, you understand that.

But I think we get caught up in, in, in, in some ways giving close minded like okay, this is our model subscription. Let's we, this is the way subscriptions work. We get people to sign up. They get every 12 months, every three months or I'm, you know, every month at a certain whatever. But I think you got to, you got to stand back sometimes and think, okay, what really is the ultimate goal? The ultimate goal is to get the consumer to buy more consistently, which will therefore not only which could be subscription or it could be a slightly different way of subscribing like the way that you mentioned or you know, but the reality is that it's going to give you what you're looking for, which is recurring revenue or consistent revenue, I should say. So I really like that, that, that outlook. I'm kind of curious if you don't mind sharing with us a little bit of the back end. Like for instance, how does a platform, does the platform rely on the consumer to tell them how they want to engage with the company or does your platform have some sort of algorithm that estimates what the potential consumption pattern of that customer might be?

Yeah, so the, the way that we, that we've implemented this is like it's intended to be something where we're not trying to predict with AI, at least not at this point. Like I think AI is, is an interesting and like there's a lot of areas and opportunities for AI, but ultimately a lot of this is a design problem, right? Where it's like AI cannot predict this month exactly when I need more coffee. What's, what will work without fail is asking me do I need more coffee in a way that doesn't annoy me. Right. And so ultimately the, the like it possibly the best solution of that is just a good design. And by design I don't I don't just mean visual design, I mean like a good experience, like an interaction design. And so what we do is you could even it's based off of called subscription frequencies. Let's say your typical subscriptions are 30, 60, 90 days. I'll use that as an example rather than it automatically renewing and charging the person with what we call an on demand subscription. So for customers who we have the normal subscription, right. Because again that is important for a segment of customers. But for customers who've either either canceled or are trying likely to cancel because of the frequency issue, or people who buy consistently but aren't, don't want to subscribe, this is a way to effectively shift gears in the car where it's an in between mode, where it's still Pavlovian and it's reminding people. And so what we do is we send an email in or a text message after 30 days saying hey, do you need more? Assuming again, like let's say we're anchoring it around that 30 day interval and the customer can either essentially reply yes, that they want to buy it and they're ready, or they can snooze it and say remind me again in three days or a week, et cetera. Right. So it's not a full skip. But either way, if the customer were to ignore that, that email or that that communication, the order is not automatically fulfilled, whereas with a normal subscription it would. Which again is part of the part that makes this attractive to a lot of people who would otherwise cancel a subscription or not subscribe in the first place. So what you're doing here and like the analogy I've been, I've given is my family used to have pizza every Friday when I was growing up. If you were to ask my parents to subscribe to get pizza every month or every week, they would say absolutely not. What if we want burgers? But the truth is if you were to call my parents on Friday afternoon and say, do you want pizza tonight? They'd probably like nine times out of ten say yes. But if you were to ask someone to commit in advance to always having pizza every Friday, then that's a, this is just a very different ask. And so it's sort of taking that exact same approach, which is getting close to the period where the person has a good idea as to whether or not they want more. And because they do like your product, they're much more inclined to a, like be receptive to the message and be like, yeah, I'll have more. Like I do actually want Some more right now. And it's. You're much more likely to get more people into that program because it's not locking them into something. And we all have bad experiences of having subscriptions that we didn't want in the mean then having like the surprise charge. And so that, you know that that experience is also resulting in people sort of being apprehensive to subscribe.

Yeah. You know, and I agree with you. You know, I think a lot of people listening who, who have E commerce stores and are thinking about that, I mean, we've been so ingrained that subscription, subscription, subscription is the, is a way to go. But there's a negative side on how people look at subscriptions in a way when they're not happy with them. Right. When they have a bad experience. Because the way you described it a second ago, that is like, wow, that is exactly what happens to me. I buy a product, even one that I really love. I don't consume it the way that I think I'm going to consume it. Like right now I have one product that I still actually have vitamins left and then I got the new one and I haven't even opened the new one and I know that probably in a few days I'm going to be charged again for a third one. And I'm actually now when you were thinking about that, I was like, oh, I got to go to their email. I got to manage this somehow because I don't really need a new. Another. Another one right now. So this happens over and over and over again. And, and it becomes not only, not necessarily just a bad experience for me, but now I have a little bit of frustration or yeah, a little anxiety that I got to go back and manage these descriptions. Like I got to go back in there, I gotta, you know, do whatever I need to do so that I'm not getting it. But I guess the point is that there is a challenge even for products that you really love, you're not going to get consumed in the way that you want. And so I don't know, I like this flexibility approach, but I can see someone saying I would rather just have just ping their credit card so I have revenue coming in versus giving them the choice. I mean, is that an obstacle that you like the sales objection you get when you're talking to consumers or E commerce operators on this?

Yeah, I mean that, but that. I think it's two things. One of which is, you know, that argument around just. It's not an either or first and foremost. Right. Like part of what we even say. And like what, like what I'm saying is subscriptions are a great piece of the puzzle. But as an industry, I think we've gone sort of very prescriptive where the goal is to push everyone into your subscription program, where as more and more brands are asking for that same subscription commitment, people just don't want to manage a bunch of subscriptions, even if you're going to notify them because you're going to miss it. Right. And it's ultimately their, their wallet. And so that's just resulting in more and more bad experiences and that aren't even necessarily the brand's fault. So as a tool, as more and more people are using it, it's going to become less effective over time. Not, it's still going to be effective, it's just not as effective. And the people who are on a subscription are, it's a, it's a percentage, it's a minority of your customers, whereas there are still a lot of customers who want to enjoy your product. The number one reason people cancel is too much product. So going back to what you're asked around of to what extent is that an obstacle in like, in, from like a sales perspective, it's really, it's about like you're not going to trick someone to be a lifelong customer. You might be able to trick some of your customers to buy one extra time because they forgot. But A, it's gonna be a bad experience. And if you're trying to build a brand with a capital B, where like the whole point of it, especially now with like such a competitive environment and like the economy and stuff like, like, as a brand you can't afford to provide a bad experience. Right? Like the brands who are winning are the ones who are super consumer focused and are focused around delivering an exceptional experience. And a part of that is managing your relationship with, with your, with your consumer. And in some ways, I think being overly communicative in ways that aren't always necessarily in the, I don't want to say the direct benefit to the brand because that's not, that's not true. But it's more of a. It might not seem as straightforward, but ultimately the goal is to have a lifelong customer who enjoys your product, tells their friends and keeps on buying from you. And so if you can have other mechanisms that still accomplish that without forcing it to, into a, it always being automatic, you know, you're still intuitively going to maximize that customer's lifetime value. And so the idea here is it's about each Individual person. For some people it is a subscription, for some people it's not. And once you, and for anyone who runs a brand they all have had these experiences. So once you start explaining what the goal is and like then, then you find people are receptive to it because it does make sense. And any, if I challenge any brand to look at their, their cancellation reasons for their subscription program, I can say probably with 99 confidence the number one reason you have is too much product. And once someone cancels the stats show that something around like, like 5% of consumers buy again. So once you have a subscriber who's canceling and you're looking at the reasons of why they're canceling, they're not canceling because they don't like your product. They're canceling because they're getting too much of it. Like you know, those are people who should continue buying from you. What you need to do is have a different way of let's say like delivering the product or cons or a way for them to consume because you're not like you're not going to continue to build a healthy business that scales over time by not sort of meeting each person in the way that they want to buy.

Yeah, I, I love that perspective and I think, I think that is giving that is congruent for a lot of brands who don't want to seem pushy or don't want to just try to push people all in one, in one to one place. Like subscriptions only. Walk us through a little bit. Like if I'm listening to this and I really love this perspective of an approach and how to be like the way that you hit, you mentioned it before which was and I like that the anti subscription subscription platform. I love that phrase. But if someone, yeah. So if someone likes this perspective and approach, how do I know I'm a good customer of yours? Is there an average order value? Is there a sales revenue number like number of orders per month? Is there any criteria that I should know about if I to know that I'm a good, good customer for you?

Yeah. So we work predominantly with brands who already have scale. So product market fit in. Part because the goal here is to help. We want to find brands who, they've already found a product that and a customer group who want to buy it. So typically what you'll see is brands that are doing at least 1 1/2 million dollars to $2 million a year in revenue. And what we can do is we can then work with them on accelerating their growth. So they don't have product issues at that stage because they've already gone. They've already found people who probably love their product and who are consistently buying. And then what we can do is come in and help work with them to accelerate that growth. You know, specifically products, it's cpg, so food and beverage, health and wellness, beauty. So it's products that have some sort of, that are shelf stable and have some sort of irregular consumption rate either through lifestyle. And again that, that applies to most products that aren't a medication. But those are the ones specifically that we have a lot of experience with. And so you know, we can speak anecdotally to solutions that we've seen work and like helping brands sort of think through even like their own, you know, what is the, the right approach for their own consumers.

You know, and my first initial thought was would you, you work with companies that may have already had a subscription program and have seen it fail, but that may not be the case. Right. I mean you work with people who may never have had a subscription program in place, is that correct?

Yeah, we predominantly work with brands who do have an existing subscription program and their programs have not failed. It's more a matter of how do they continue to, how do they grow it and how do they grow it in a healthy way. And so this idea of it, yeah, like the, it's not just about subscriptions. Subscriptions are an important component but it's really about this flexibility and of providing a consumer centric purchase experience. So it's brands who care a lot about the, we'll call it the, the consumer experience and who, you know, if you were looking at, if you're thinking about this, am I a good fit for this? Again, I'd look at, you know, the revenue numbers north of one and a half, $2 million a year in revenue that you probably already sell subscriptions. We do work with some brands and we do consult with some brands where they don't yet but they have a large, we'll call it a la carte business where like they, they sell a lot of one time products and they're trying to figure out how subscriptions or subscription like experience can fit into that. We certainly can help with that but our focus is really on brands who already offer subscriptions because they also have a lot of evidence around what's working and what's not already for them. And it's more a matter of, you know, taking a look and talking to them about what are they trying to accomplish and yeah, what are the tools that they're looking for to be able to do it.

And is it only Shopify brands and. And then also what does an onboarding look like?

Yes. So right now we, we do focus on Shopify, and from an onboarding perspective, we do a initial consultative call where we try to understand the business, talk through sort of what the challenges, goals and dreams are. And then, you know, based off that, we're identifying how, you know, how we're fit, how we can help. And then from there, it's a matter of, you know, transitioning them to, to our platform and working with them around just. Yeah. Making sure that we're on the same page around what they're trying to accomplish. And like, here's the path to do that.

Interesting. I love, I love what I'm hearing and it sounds like I said, again, I just love the perspective that you have, the approach that you have to, that is there anything. And I want to be respectful of your time. I know you have a business to run. Is there anything else that you want to leave with the audience that maybe we hadn't covered, either on the subscription side or maybe even on the, the other stuff we were talking about?

It's funny, we definitely transcended multiple topics, I think. So I guess two things. At the personal level, if you're a founder who's navigating this stuff, stuff, I'm always happy to talk. I would say that, you know, I, I can, I'm always happy to listen and provide whatever perspective I can. So you're welcome to reach out to me about that. On the professional end, I love talking to operators. I love talking to brands. It's selfishly even like one way that I can continue to be, you know, continue to grow and stay relevant is just I love talking to people and understanding what are the, what are their. What are their hopes, what their goals are, the dreams and challenges. Because, you know, I'd say our superpower in my background is really at the technical level and we have a lot of experience on the operations and like the logistics level of D2C, some of that through osmosis, as well as having consulted for and worked within brands in addition to, like building SaaS tools. I just love talking through and understanding what are the things that are top of mind and like, how might we be able to help? So even if you don't necessarily, you're not sure that we're a good fit, the very least, I'm willing and happy to have a conversation and I will try to point you in the Right direction for whatever is most relevant and pressing to your business. Because I think one of the benefits is we've been in the Shopify ecosystem with rodeo, but certainly before rodeo. Like, we've been in the space for a long time. And so when you're talking about things, you're trying to figure out whether it's like, how to make some sort of configuration work or trying to consider different pros and cons of. Of different technologies, I certainly can speak to, you know, here are the things that I'd recommend because I've seen this type of system or this setup before and here like the pros and the cons, so happy to nerd out in this stuff.

Well, I appreciate that, but, man, we've covered so many different topics. This has been such an amazing conversation and I can just appre, you know, just thank you so much and so appreciative of you sharing of yourself and your journey with entrepreneurship, as well as telling us about rodeo. I love the approach. So tell us where to go to engage with you both on a business level and if you want to give out your, you know, LinkedIn or if that's the best place for you. So, yeah, go ahead.

Oh, no. So, I mean, I'm Pretty Active on LinkedIn and on Twitter. My username is Skinny and Bald because I'm kind of skinny, kind of bald, mostly bald, definitely bald and. Or you can search for me on LinkedIn as under Ben Fisher to go to our website. If you're interested in learning more about rodeo and booking a booking a call. Our website is hey, period Rodeo. And that's Hey H E Y not hey for horses, Rodeo. R O D E L. So you can go there. There's a form, a button to click to like basically to schedule a call. So one of those three ways is easy to get in touch with me. LinkedIn's LinkedIn or Twitter obviously are immediate ways where you can just like message me something or I have a question. I just want to get in touch.

Well, and thank you for that and making that available for folks. So this has been fantastic, man. You have an open invitation to come back anytime you want. I love this conversation. I'm probably going to love to have you on one of our other shows that we're launching, but this has been great. So thank you so much for sharing your journey as well as talking to us about rodeo. This has been a treat and I'm just so grateful that you did. So thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. This has been, this has been a journey.

Yeah, no, I love it. So everyone out there, we've just had Ben Fisher who is co founder and CEO of Hey Rodeo and you can or Rodeo, which you can go to heyroad.rodeo.com to visit site. Sorry about that. And, and we're gonna have his link as well as the other links he mentioned on our podcast description. And you can can find that podcast description on Apple, Spotify, Google, pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts. Simply type in the sort of a brand show and you should be able to find it. Beyond that everyone staying, stay safe and stay healthy. You know we talked a lot about emotional mental health today. We also talked about business so we gave you quite a bit to think about. But take care of yourself. And one last thing, we've all been going through something. We kind of talked a little bit about that earlier. A lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, a lot of uncertainty. There's tragedy out in the world, people facing tragedies and, and other things and illnesses and so forth. Let's just do all ourselves a favor and just remember that everyone is going through something and just maybe just be a little kinder.

A little kinder.

That person cuts you off on the freeway or that service person that may not seem to be in the best mood but you know they might be having a, a really, really bad day. Let's just be good to each other kinder. And I know we can make this human experience much better.

We.

Beyond that. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening to another episode of the Story of a Brand.

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