Episode 130: Lessons from Retail with Kate Boyce, Trimark

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What did I learn in building a women's brand inside, you know, a male-dominated retail experience? I learned to make every decision from a customer's point of view and to solve for their needs. Yeah, because if you want to cut through something that— if you want to be something different than what you've been perceived to be for a long time, you have to be coming from a solution-based place.

Distributors are professional curators. We have always been professional curators. No one knows our clients like we do, and that makes us experts for them. It's why I'm always on the lookout for conversations with folks who have B2C apparel experience, because consumer apparel and consumer trends runs parallel with our world and often intersects. We can learn a lot from each other. Hi friends, I'm Bobby LeHew, the Chief Content Officer at Common Skew. In today's Skewcast, I sit down with Kate Boyce, who's the new Vice President and General Manager of Trimark. Apparel Division of PCNA. Kate comes to PCNA with over 20 years of apparel experience in the retail industry, most recently from Dick's Sporting Goods, where she was Vice President of Merchandising for Outerwear and Outdoor Apparel. During her career, Kate held various leadership roles, including VP of Women's Apparel, where she was instrumental in creating a very successful women's category in a male-dominated retail environment. Prior to that, Kate was part of the founding merchant team that launched Justice for Girls stores She began her career at the May Department Stores Company and holds a BA in Advertising and Public Relations from Penn State University. She also volunteers as a mentor at Alpha Lab, a software accelerator in Pittsburgh, coaching early-stage companies in business strategy. Today we talk about trends, the challenge of product lifecycles, and her lessons learned from retail that she is applying to Trimark. Kate, remember, who's coming from outside the industry, also shares what has impressed her the most about our industry, something I think we all take for granted. Today's episode is brought to you by CommonSkew, the platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling you to process more orders and dramatically grow your sales. To begin your free trial now, visit commonskew.com. Now here's my conversation with Kate Boyce. Kate, one of the things I love about the SkewCast is that we get to explore the backgrounds of folks that come into the industry new. And what I really love is when someone comes into the industry with a retail experience, particularly retail apparel experience, because You are bringing a lot to us as an industry. We both know that the gap has closed between the demand for fashion-forward styles, relevant styles today from the corporate buyer and, and from retail. We've seen the gap close. So it's really relevant for us today to have you joining us and talking about your past experience and how you're parlaying that into Trimark. Kate, your background was in retail. You spent 25 years in retail apparel in a brand like Dick's Sporting Goods. You were instrumental in developing a women's brand in inside a male-dominated retail experience? What were some of the biggest lessons you learned from that?

So Bobby, I think to answer that question, maybe I'll give a, give you a little bit of my background that kind of led me up to that point. You know, I had 25 years in the industry, all focused in apparel with multi, you know, multifaceted experiences. I started out in department stores, which tends to be, you know, a house of brands. And then I worked in specialty retail. So vertical, so it was part of the group that started Justice for Girls. And, you know, that's all your own private label product development. Then I had the opportunity to move into Dick's Sporting Goods, which at the time that I started was very male-dominated, very hard goods dominated. And then the apparel side of it was very male-dominated. We had a small women's offering, which was what we used to call back in the day, the kind of shrink it and pink it, if you will. It was not focused on on who she was or what she wanted to be. It was from a very male point of view as to what, you know, what the experience should be. So some of the things that we were— that the team and I were able to do, we were— first of all, we recognized how much of an opportunity we had and that, you know, this customer was already shopping within our stores, but she wasn't shopping for herself because we weren't understanding who she was and what she wanted. So The first thing that was to focus on who the customer was and what she was looking for. And then to ensure that every decision point as we move forward in developing a strategy to grow with this, to grow with this customer and to meet her needs, it was based upon what we knew of her. And it was to start with the fundamentals. And the fundamentals were going to be partnering with pulling back in my history from Managing brands at a department store, now partner with the big national brands to curate a great women's offering within Dick's Sporting Goods, which really mirrored well to the rest of their strategy because the rest of the strategy was very brand-based. Then it was to then pull from my experience in the vertical world of creating a best-level assortment for a private brand that met needs that weren't already being taken care of in the market.

So you saw this gap for that the big brands weren't weren't fitting within the retail environment that you're in, and, and you knew you had this gap to fill.

So we knew we had this gap to fill, and what the gap was, was that the offering that had been developed within the national brands that catered to women catered to a very specific type of athletic female. Um, it really was very sophisticated or clean-lined in nature and didn't have necessarily the feminine feel that some of our customers were really looking for. So understanding that national brand partners, that wasn't going to be the direction. We developed a team that would then develop private brand and we, you know, really created our own brand that has become a national brand with the Khalia by Carrie Underwood line.

How did you see that brand grow? What was that success like?

The success was phenomenal. The success was phenomenal because it was based on a lesson that I learned, as I said early on, that if you, if you base your strategy on true consumer insight and a true consumer consumer need, you will be successful. We developed this brand to fit a white space in the market, and what wound up being developed was— if you walk into a Dick's Sporting Goods— we launched in, I think, 2015. And if you walk into a Dick's Sporting Goods today, you'll find that the Clea by Carrie Underwood brand is the second biggest brand that they carry in women's. Wow. Behind Nike. Yeah. Wow.

What a great success story. Coming into this industry, you stated there were lots of parallels with your retail experience. What, what are those parallels?

I think the parallels are that, you know, apparel is a challenging business because it's a fast-moving business and it's a very personal business because it's a personal purchase as you're wearing it. Those challenges tend to be that you have fast-moving customers that have very high expectations. And their high expectations are that they expect you to have an offering that is appealing to their sense of trend. They expect you to be able to have that quickly and get it to them quickly. I think, you know, retail is moving faster and faster, and the challenge in retail right now is how to create, how to create whole go-to-market and supply chain that allows you to move as quickly as the customer's needs and wants are. And I'm seeing that parlay almost directly into this industry with that speed getting— needing to get faster and faster.

Yeah, it's interesting how we've got the production side of this industry, you know, down so well with the 24-hour turnarounds and things like that. Now we're moving taste and fashion and style to meet that same kind of demand.

Yes, and that's challenging. I don't know that there are too many people in the retail industry who have been able to do it and keep the right level of quality for the customer. So that's a parallel challenge. Right.

Your forecasting outlook is getting shorter and shorter, smaller and smaller. And that's just got to be a huge challenge that you're facing.

With lead times that aren't— the lead times for the product aren't— you're not closing that gap as quickly as the market need is.

Yeah. Yeah. And so speaking from a supplier, not a distributor, when you talk about the timeframe, then you're talking about whether that's overseas or producing that here, the timeframes aren't meeting this demand right now as well as you're wanting it to.

And that's a parallel to the retail market. Now, I think there are a lot of lessons that we've learned in retail as to how to shorten that supply chain and how to position ourselves to move more quickly that we can now move over into this industry. But at the same time, that retail customer is moving faster than even and that's happening over there. So it's, it just, it continues as the world has become a, the expectation of 2-day turnaround on anything. It becomes harder and harder to make sure that you can meet that challenge with the right product.

Right. You know, you're, like I said, you're coming in with fresh eyes from this retail experience. What do you think is broken in our business that, that maybe we don't have that retail has, or something that you hope to make a big impact in? What are the few of the first big things that you've noticed coming in?

So over the course of the last, you know, few years in retail, there's been a big trend towards understanding how to help the consumer navigate your offering, who you are, your reason to be. And you'll see that those retailers who are finding success have really started to curate assortments that are really focused on They're focused on meeting the expectations of who they know their core consumer is. Coming into this industry and really studying the market and the offering from some of the biggest suppliers, it's overwhelming. And I think that there's opportunity to be better partners to our distributor partners and our end-user customers with helping them to navigate sort of this endless aisle that exists today.

Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. Which from a distributor standpoint, that is, then us ourselves really fine-tuning that niche, that niche with our customers, understanding our customers better and getting a better scope on that. Because that's what you're saying that the best retail brands do. Whereas we have instead this real shotgun approach to merchandising and to our customer.

And I think it's super important. I mean, this has been the critical change in retail over time. If you flash back to when department stores were really the meat and potatoes of the retail industry, they offered everything to everyone. They were a one-stop shop, but they were incredibly difficult to navigate. There was not storytelling. It wasn't curated. It was trying to cover everything off. And you'll see that those— I mean, there's a reason that the department store business is not as strong as it once was. I mean, it's a segment that's really struggling. And what you'll find is those that are successful in retail right now are doing two things. Either curated an assortment that is very easy for the customer to understand, and they've given an experience to the customer that is— has made them kind of— they now have a relationship and they become part of the customer's ecosystem, if you will. Or they've chased the goods down to the lowest price and they're playing a lowest price game, which is very difficult for anyone to be successful long term with.

Yeah, I love that point about focus. What do you, what do you think as you came into this business, this industry, then what is surprisingly efficient? What were you surprised that works very well and something we should all double down on?

I think there's a couple of things and they're all very different. The first thing that I have been amazed by, and I will start with my own company, PCNA, the ability to create incredible, incredibly best-in-class decorated product with such a tight turnaround and logistically get it to— in the hands of the end users in a very short amount of time is something that when I was in retail, we would have killed for.

Right.

I think, you know, you and I talked a bit at one point about the trend for personalization. Now, individualism and personalization is one of the biggest macro trends out there, and this industry has doubled down in a way to do this so efficiently and speed to market that is absolutely unreplicated in retail. The second thing that I think has really been— it's been very interesting to me, and it's a breath of fresh air— is the level of camaraderie across this industry. The amount of sharing of best practices and ideas and the partnership between the biggest suppliers in the industry, the biggest distributors in the industry, these, the industry organizations and the amount that people come together to really ideate and, and, you know, continue to ensure that this industry is protected and then it grows and that it continues to evolve forward. That is amazing to me. And that's not something that you see in the corporate retail world. You know, that's, that's a very different dynamic. It's much more cutthroat. There's not really this level of sharing, certainly not within the same category of business. I mean, different people within different industries will come together to have conversation, but it's very different here. I think it's fantastic, and I think it gives this industry a strength and will make— it will ensure that this industry stays relevant and stays on top of, you know, stays ahead of where it needs to be for the customer.

Yeah, this is why I love getting a perspective from somebody coming outside in, because I think we tend to take these things for granted. The speed, I often say, and I'll never tire saying it, that we should all pause from time to time and recognize and appreciate and celebrate the projects that go right, because the error rate is rather small, and it's, it's incredible what goes right given the variables that we all deal with in the time frames. It's astounding what goes right. And, and I agree with you, I think the collaboration in the community that's happened in the industry, at least over the past several years that I have seen, has become more intense, more intimate, and it's really made an impact on people's businesses. So thanks for sharing that. What is it we can help distributors— you know, the audience consists of distributors and suppliers, and of course we want to help help educate folks on how to do business better, how to grow as entrepreneurs. What is it that we can help distributors learn about selling apparel? That's a big question, but I'm going to throw it at you because again, you're coming in with fresh eyes.

I appreciate that. It is a big question and there's a lot of different ways that you could approach that question. The difference in apparel to hard goods to me, as you know, I mean, this is my passion. I have 25 years of doing this and I love apparel. It's an emotional purchase. It's a tactile purchase. Yes, it's, it's, it's something that, you know, you truly— what you wear becomes part of your identity. Not that, you know, categories like, you know, drinkware and drinkware bags and things aren't, aren't as important. They certainly are. But it's just, it just takes on a different— it takes on a different personality. And there's, I think, different decision points for people with how they want to dress themselves to create their, you know, create their individualism. So I think that, you know, one of the things I think that we have an opportunity to do in this industry is to— we have an opportunity as suppliers to better arm our distributor partners with the reasons that we're the product that— why does our assortment look like it does? What are those trends that we're fulfilling? What are those things that are important to the customer? As we build our lines, whether you're buying a line from a major national brand or we're putting together an assortment and building our own line, every decision point you're making is because it's filling an assortment need. We have an opportunity to better explain that, our reasons to be and why this product was built and what we think the customer is going to love about it to the distributors that they can then pass that forward. I think I'm finding that in this industry, there is still a lot of where the retail industry was 5 years ago, where there was a lot of technical jargon and a lot of technical talk. And that's what sold product. And then everyone paused and realized that it's really great looking product that makes people feel good that they want to buy. And then, oh, by the way, if it has these great technical properties, that's a huge win too, but that was never the first decision point. I think that we have the opportunity to help educate our partners to those other points first so that we don't have to rely on all the technical that is a nice to have, but doesn't make me get up on Saturday morning and decide to put my company's logo sweatshirt on because I just love how it feels. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, you're preaching to the choir here because that's, that's what I am very passionate about, is getting us back into the emotional touchpoints and the emotional experience about what it is that we sell. With apparel, it's an unprecedented opportunity. With apparel, it's a unique opportunity because with apparel you can drive the sale more so, I think, than you can with other product, as opposed to just reacting to, reacting to a request. With apparel, you can actually drive it. And this is something we've got to work work on more ourselves. This is obviously something you're going to focus on with Trimark too.

Oh, absolutely. I think that to me, apparel is such an amazing opportunity. Like I said, it's— you have the opportunity in branded apparel, in decorated apparel, to become somewhat a part of a person's wardrobe, to become part of their closet. And, you know, the, the impact to your logo, your brand recognition that occurs as that happens, I don't know that we can measure that. So in Trimark, as we move forward in the development of our line, we're committed to leading, being market-leading from an innovation and a trend perspective. We're committed to curating the line so that it is easier for our partners to be able to navigate and understand what are the big stories, what is the reason to be. We don't want to sell items. We want to sell an overall idea, and here are the best items that fill that idea, and to really form these relationships. And we're committed to have, you know, great quality at a fair price. And to me, those are the things that we can bring into the market and offer as our point of differentiation.

You know, the customer expected this customer experience. Every CMO in the world is focusing on customer experience because we've understood this from the retail, retail experience. And that's, that's driving a lot of marketing right now. And it's finally caught up to B2B. And you mentioned something to me about a retail apocalypse and brands not being able to connect to a customer's experience. Can you elaborate on that? I think there's something relevant to us. Maybe we're just unpacking something you've already discussed. But I think you've got something to share with that.

I think that one of the biggest mistakes that was happening in the retail business— like I said, there are two things happening. People are either creating— they're creating experience or they're chasing price. And chasing price is not a recipe for success in the end, because if you don't create a relationship with a customer, you have no brand loyalty. Brand loyalty is key. And you also have to offer, you have to offer not only differentiation within your assortment that is relevant to the customer, but again, it's, it's, it's the same thing as we said in the beginning. What did I, what did I learn in building a women's brand inside, you know, a male-dominated retail experience? I learned to make every decision from a customer's point of view and to solve for their needs. Because if you want to cut through something that, if you want to be something different than what you've been perceived to be for a long time, you have to be coming from a solution-based place. So that being said, I think that how it's relevant in this industry is understanding that customer experience is going to be about ease of use. And, or at least that's my perception, you know, with the limited time I've had coming into this industry. And ease of use to me is going to be around offering that curated assortment. It's going to be around the services that you can offer to the customer, whether, you know, it's dedicated customer support to help them from an ease of execution in the order process, whether it's, you know, 24-hour shipping to get product into your customer's hands as quickly as possible, whether it's one-stop shopping from a decorating perspective. I mean, these are all things that PCNA as an organization really leans into from an ease of use. And I think that this continues to evolve and we up the ante because It's about creating that ease of execution or ease of use to really be meaningful and to help your customer.

Yeah. You know, something too that's highly relevant to what you're talking about with your retail experience is that every distributor is curating a special branded experience for every company that they do work for. And what I saw was a trend happening where customers wanted their own unique— I'm speaking specifically of apparel— their own unique branded experience for their brand. And so it was up to us to create and curate this collection. And in a funny way, distributors are professional curators because they— no one knows their client better than they do. And this trend toward personalization and individualization, particularly this trend toward we want it to be unique for us, which you can do with decorating techniques and various things, but there's so much relevance here for us to learn from, to get hyper-focused on knowing our customer well, knowing that niche market, and then curating a collection on their behalf, as opposed to same for all, which is, as you said, a race to the bottom. So we both know the gap between current trends and corporate market demand is closed. And so what's Trimark doing specifically to respond to the demand today and in the near future? What, like, what's on your desk right now to answer that kind of a challenge?

I, I think that it— the answer to that question under— it kind The answer to that question lives in defining product life cycles. That's one of the things that coming into this industry was so eye-opening to me. As I said in the beginning, I've worked in different facets of the retail business that had different life cycles. Obviously, specialty retail has a very different life cycle than necessarily athletic apparel is going to have. But they're all faster than I think the history of this industry has been. And I think one of the things that we need to do is we really need to evaluate what the right answer to the question is as we move forward. As that gap closes between retail and here, it's, it's going to force this industry to relook at its lifecycle strategy. From a Trimark perspective, we are absolutely looking at that and saying, how much of our business is, or is long life cycle product, how much of our business should be medium life cycle product, and how much of our business should be sitting in that true pinnacle trend, if you will. And it's a question of being able to identify what are short-term trends and what are more commercial trends. And there's a big difference. And again, those outside of the fast fashion retailers, what the retailers who are successful are doing well right now is because they're leaning in on trends that are more of a medium life cycle trend, because it allows you to put the right level of inventory out there, continue to have newness, but still have enough of an offering that you're not missing business. That is another parallel to this market. It's going to look a little bit different, but I think that we're going to start to close that gap too.

Yeah, that's fascinating. That's fun to be a part of. I'm sure it's stressful and challenging too. What is the, what is the one thing you wish distributors— let me ask it this way. Alaska, I like asking suppliers this question because, because distributors are so busy just putting out the next fire, taking care of the next client, taking care of the next project. And we have so many supplier partners and so many products that we tend to not become a master of any, any one in particular line. What is the one thing you wish distributors knew about Trimark that goes unnoticed?

I think, I think there's more than one thing. You're going to make me pick my favorite amongst my kids. So I think that A couple of things that go unnoticed is I think that the true price value that Trimark offers to the market, I think, goes somewhat unnoticed. As I said earlier, I have been blown away by coming in from retail and really getting to know the product assortment that Trimark offers. I have been blown away by the quality, which is— and I'm not saying this because this is where I am. Truly, my first reaction was this is retail quality product at prices that that I would never have been able to achieve. And I want to go back and yell at some of the national brands that they owe me some money back for how much I've paid for things in the past.

So we take that quality for granted.

I think that, I think we take the quality for granted. I don't think that we realize that. I think we, I think we attribute national brands and household names with quality. And I don't think we realize what the offering here really is from a price point.

Right. Yeah, I've often mused, you know, you can throw down a Ralph Lauren sports shirt beside a Nike sports shirt beside one of our industry's leading sports shirts and you'll see better product. It's a lot of that is storytelling and branding, and, and we know that. But I'm glad you mentioned that because some brands get an unfair— get an unfair— and I mean, let me put this way, I'm glad, I'm glad you mentioned that because it seems we have a bias toward brands that might not necessarily be true. In a funny way, it might be a little bit of lazy selling because the brands make it easier to sell on one hand, and I get that. But on the other hand, you could still create and curate a unique experience for your particular client customer with a product that's every bit as good as, or better than, the product that has that brand on it. You have to bear with me a little bit on this question. I got a little bit of an axe to grind here because it's something I've seen in the industry and I don't know how to rectify it. But apparel minimums have dramatically dropped, for good bad. You seem like an ideal partner for many distributors because of your turnkey service. So many distributors use their own decorators, and as a former distributor, this was something I always struggled with. We would use our time, attention, and energy buying blank goods from great providers, and then— and sometimes, and this is necessary— and then sending that to a decorator instead of focusing on a turnkey experience that would minimize our operational overhead. I always feel like I'm out on an island by myself, and that's because we did a lot of program business and corporate catalogs and things like that, and it was intense managing these multiple relationships with blank goods. But with Trimark, there seemed to be— companies like Trimark, there's a great opportunity here for us to invest ourselves in educating ourselves about the brand so that we can not only present great merchandise but also have a great operational experience. Am I wrong to be grinding that ax? I mean, maybe I'm just preaching to the choir. And you, but did you see the same thing?

So you're, you're validating an observation that I've had that I've been trying to sort of pressure test. I think that for me, that the fact that from a program perspective, now Trimark offers, you know, no setup fee, that we have a 24-hour turnaround on, you you know, the primary decoration decorating methods and half, half mins.

Yeah, like what quantities are we talking? Half mins?

So most of our minimums sit between like, I think like 6 and 10. So you're talking about half of that, right? So it's not large quantities. And so I think that, I think, I think you're right. I think we have a lot more to offer to the market and we have this opportunity to make our customers' lives easier and to allow them to shift from focusing their efforts on the tactical of getting it from here to there and execute it. Let us handle that so that you can shift, you can look, you can go back to procuring new business and growing.

Thank you. By the way, I have to say thank you. You said it better than I could say, but you could spend that energy on so much more growing sales in another category, growing sales in the same category, or just spending your time on creative energy as a as opposed to this production energy.

And I think that, you know, I think that some of the things that perhaps have held this back from happening in the past has been maybe, has been that our partners really may not have understood just how, how wide our assortment really is from a categorical perspective, how much you really do cover off on because it is so curated. And I think that we could help them to understand that we really can fulfill it across and make the, We can fulfill all of your needs. We do have the right assortment to do that. So you can lean in with us and we, we, we owe people that education.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm real curious. What brands do you love and respect the most? Or maybe, maybe the difference is what brands do you follow as you keep an eye on trends?

Oh, this is a fun question. So I've had the privilege throughout my career to work with some of the best brands in multiple, multiple industries. And I will tell you that by far, from a market-leading perspective, Nike is a place that I will always keep my eyes on. They are— they lead from a trend perspective, they lead from an innovation perspective, they lead from a marketing perspective. And at the same time, they have a social conscience, which is almost second to none out there outside of another one that will come to mind, Patagonia, who, you know, I will— I follow Patagonia to understand how they are positioning their product as they move forward to ensure that they're doing good in the world. It's, it's a— they have, they have a social conscience which is so admirable. In addition, I think, you know, there are some smaller brands that I think do an absolutely do the incredible job of bringing trend to the market quickly, but carving a place for themselves, which is very differentiated from what's in the market. One that comes to mind is Outdoor Voices, which is primarily a women's athletic brand who really, I think, is one to watch. And I think then there's some other smaller brands out there. This is always a fun question because as a student of retail, you you're, you know, you spend all of your time trying to find who is that next up-and-coming that I want to align with. And, you know, years ago there were, you know, just the big guys. And now I find that based on this trend for individualism and personalization, that the customer finds these brands for you way before you do.

Yeah.

That they're gravitating toward them so quickly. So I find that I follow those guys and then I follow a lot of different Instagram handles or sites that kind of aggregate and talk to where the customer's going and look at some of what the trends are out there because that's just a ton of fun.

Yeah. Do you recall a few offhand?

One of my favorites to follow is probably Hype Bay. I love to follow Kith. Kith is a brand, but it's also a house of brands, and they do a fantastic job curating a trend assortment. I think from a women's perspective, Carbon38— Carbon38 is an online women's athletic site that they do an absolutely amazing job finding the newest and latest from a brand and trend perspective.

Thank you for that. I love that. It's so encouraging to think that we're in a day and time where you have all these massive brands, but these small brands are making such an impact. And we are personal, as I mentioned, curators for the brands that we do work for. And we've got a great opportunity in front of us to create a unique experience for each of those brands, much like the similarity you're seeing with these smaller brands making a big impact or a little but important impact in the retail market as a whole. So it's fun to watch that. Well, Kate, thank you for those brands. That's cool. I'm going to hop on and follow a few of those. And thanks for your time today. I'm really excited about your leadership and where you're taking the Trimark brand. And I know you've got a great crew there, and we'll be watching.

Thank you for your time, Bobby. And also, thank you for— yeah, thank you for acknowledging the crew. I mean, that's one thing we didn't talk about as coming in here specifically. And I'm so excited about the opportunity, and I definitely am privileged to have joined one of the, you know, the best teams in the market for sure.

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SkuCast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing to SkuCast on iTunes or to our blog at community.comonsku.com. Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening.

Mm-hmm.