Episode 138: “Tchotchke” Talk, Tactile Marketing in a Digital World with John Jantsch

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. Skucast is the official podcast of Common Skew.

Those behaviors— know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat, refer— are, you know, I, I kind of— I've been talking about the last few years that I think our job as marketers is not to create or drive demand, it's to organize behavior. And those 7 behaviors all have different questions and objectives. I mean, a lot of people refer to them as stages But, you know, we as business owners, we as marketers need to be thinking about how do we guide people on those 7 stages or those 7 behaviors knowing that they actually want to participate in them. How do we intentionally build campaigns and, and processes and initiatives to make sure that we are actually addressing those?

John Jantz, the founder of Duct Tape Marketing, has been called the Peter Drucker of small business tactics. He's the author of numerous books about sales, marketing, and entrepreneurship, and his books have been translated into 14 languages. Many of us have read the book Duct Tape Marketing. He also wrote The Referral Engine, SEO for Growth, and more. His new book is titled The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur. This past weekend, John tweeted this, quote, branded tchotchkes don't further your conversations with prospects, whereas great sales materials do, and he linked to an article titled "The Role of Sales Materials in a Digital World." Mark Graham, Common Skew's President and Chief Branding Officer, ever vigilant as he is, saw the tweet, disagreed with John on Twitter, and then, as Mark does, invited John to join us today on the SkewCast to talk about it. John, being a great sport, was gracious and wanted to clarify what he meant, as it really was a statement taken slightly out of context. All of this led to a great discussion around the efficacy of product, then segued into the 7 phases of the customer's journey and ended at the purpose of the intentional entrepreneur. Before we get into our conversation with John, a quick housekeeping note. SKU Camp signups have taken off like a rocket. It's always our fastest selling event. If you don't know what I'm talking about, SKU Camp is the industry's only business bootcamp experience, a few days of high impact lessons taught by people in the trenches. Plus a few outside experts. It's a deep dive into topics many people don't talk about in our business, including sales growth, values, compensation plans, succession planning, and much more. And this year we have a lineup of speakers from some of the most intriguing brands in the business. If you're curious to learn more, visit skucamp.com. If you're on the fence about it, I encourage you to decide quickly as tickets really are moving fast. Hope to see you there. In Austin, Texas, September 13th through the 16th at SKU Camp. Again, that's skucamp.com. This episode is brought to you by CommonSKU, the platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling you to process more orders and dramatically grow your sales. You can learn more or you can start your free trial now at commonsku.com. Now here's our conversation with author, consultant, and speaker John Jantz.

So John, it's a great pleasure to have you on the SkuCast here today. Thank you for taking some of your valuable time to be with us here today.

My pleasure. I love to talk about this stuff.

All right. So on the weekend, I opened up my Twitter feed and I saw a tweet that said, branded tchotchkes don't further your conversations with prospects, whereas great sales materials do. And I believe that was you, John, that had tweeted that. And I thought it would be an interesting way to kick off the episode to talk a little bit about your background and then what it is that you had in mind when you had written that tweet about the value of promotional tchotchkes.

You bet. Well, in a lot of ways, obviously a tweet is 140 characters, so it's pretty easy to take that out of context in a 1,000-word article or so that that was coming from. But the real point of that article was just talking about how people have gotten away from valuable leave-behinds of any kind in the digital age. And even the use of the word tchotchkes, I think, is a little disparaging to sort of the the circle of folks that just look at it as, oh, let's put our name on something and somebody will want to have that or wear that, not any real thought to the strategic connection to the brand. So, I was really probably railing more against the people that are just doing it mindlessly, but it was also in the context of the fact that people have gotten away from anything really that's physical or leave behind in general because the digital age allows us to just send everything by email. And so, that And that was really where that entire kind of thrust was.

John, I've been a fan for years. I know we used to send your Duct Tape Marketing book and Referral Engine to customers and friends. Fantastic reads. And I know we've had you as a guest on— Mark, it was the SkuCast Book Club at one point. I'm sorry, the CommsCube Book Club at one point. But in the tweet that you said in the article that you linked to, the article's rich. The role of sales materials in a digital world, you wrote this, that with these digital marketing channels doing so much of the heavy lifting and representing your brand, do you really still need sales materials? Will a prospect really leaf through your catalog or read your brochure? And the answer to these questions is a resounding yes. Sales materials still hold an important place in the customer journey. One of the points you made was that in the article you cited a US Post Office study enhancing the value of mail, the human response. It actually was a very sophisticated study that they had done that linked consumers' subconscious responses to 3 buying process phases. One was exposure, Second was memory, and the third was action. The bottom line was, compared to digital, people who read print materials spend a longer time engaging with the materials. They had a greater emotional reaction to the content and were more likely to place a higher value on the product or service. How have you seen effective sales materials help build trust and create engagement with buyers, either through your customers that you've consulted with or even through your own brand?

Well, one of the things that I've discovered, and there's sort of this the sliding scale of the less complicated, the less price, probably the less education that you need. But obviously, if you're selling services which are maybe complex or air and they might be a higher-priced $10,000, $50,000 type of engagement, then you not only need more education, but I think you also need to stimulate more senses. There are a heck of a lot of people that are a heck of a lot of research that suggests that people have different learning styles. I know, for example, when my books come out, for whatever reason, my publishers tend to put my audiobook out a couple weeks after the print book. And I always hear from people almost immediately, I only listen to audio. That's how I consume books. And so part of what I think you're doing by having print sales materials is you are kind of reinforcing the message. You're giving people different learning styles. If the sales cycle, for example, is longer, there is something about that idea of being able to hold onto it and take it with you on the airplane and, you know, just do things that people do as they are studying and kind of getting their questions answered. And so I just think there's a great, great place still for that format, if you will, if we're going to call it that, to be part of the mix.

It's interesting, John, there's a promotional products industry podcast called Unscripted hosted by a few friends of ours, and they were having a conversation. I think it was literally just a couple of days ago on their podcast about one of the hosts was deliberating whether it was a good idea to reintroduce a printed newsletter that he was going to print out and mail to his hundreds and hundreds of customers. And they were having a debate as to whether that was a good idea or not. And reading your post in terms of good sales material, it almost feels like it reinforces that being a good idea because everyone right now has got a Mailchimp account or a Constant Contact account where they're blasting these emails out at no cost. But of course, most people are deleting them. Whereas how many people are actually receiving a printed newsletter certainly is going to come at a greater cost. What is your thinking on that with your small business clients as to whether you're seeing a movement towards a printed newsletter?

I don't know that I'm seeing a movement, but I support the idea. I think the hard thing is, as you just alluded to, you could blast out hundreds of thousands of emails at seemingly no cost. You start printing and again, you know, so no cost. So Do you care what the return is as much? Right. And then you start printing something and all of a sudden it's like, whoa, I spent $1,000. I need to get X in return. And I think the problem is, you know, there's sometimes not a direct one-to-one correlation with I got this thing and I ordered something from you, or there's no attribution to I got this thing and I ordered from you. But I think that, that, you know, in addition to the fact that, that you're providing a different medium, uh, you know, our mailboxes, uh, some would say thankfully, but are not as full as they used to be. And so, something well-executed showing up in the mailbox now is actually going to capture that person that, I know this sounds silly, but maybe kind of longs for a little bit of that in their mailbox. Yeah.

I was reflecting on this wine club that I was a part of a little while ago. And, one of the things that I most look forward to, I mean, yes, I look forward to the wine, but What was really classy about this operation was that they had this— it was like a printed newsletter where they talked about the wine, they talked about where it came from, they told stories about the winemakers, and it was printed out on this beautiful paper stock. I'd read it front to back every time. I'm thinking that if they had just sent out an email with this like, "Hey, look for your wine delivery this month," I probably would have blown off the email just because it would have sat in my promotions box in Gmail. So anyways, that's, I mean, that's not the promotional products industry, but it certainly provides fodder for that argument.

Well, and I think you make a point that needs to be emphasized. If you just create the generic newsletter that doesn't really provide a lot of value, you know, doesn't, doesn't stand out, you know, you're probably— it's probably not going to get read. And I think that's the mistake a lot of people make, is they get a template and they just slam something in there that looks like what everybody else is sending out. But the idea that this was well-designed, this was well thought out, this had stories that were engaging, it felt weighty just because of the paper. I mean, that's an element that you can't really gloss over.

Yeah. Jon, you had mentioned that you've used promotional t-shirts in your past book launches. Given that there's a promotional products audience here, do you want to talk about the effectiveness or lack thereof, maybe the pros and cons of having done those printed shirts and how they drove ROI for your marketing campaigns?

Yeah. So, I've actually used more than just shirts. My last book is called "The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur." And I quote a great deal of the content is taken from some mid-19th century authors, most notably Ralph Waldo Emerson is one that people are certainly familiar with. And so, for this book launch, I actually got rocks inscribed with a quote that just says, "Insist on yourself," which was kind of a core of one of his essays. And so I have that as well as t-shirts. And I, you know, I love doing things like that that can, you know, they don't— neither one of them say The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur on them. They— so they, in this particular case, they, you know, there's no call to action necessarily. What I have used them for is in, you know, in the context of the book is when I send the book out to people that I'm hopeful will talk about it, will write about it, will tweet about it, will take pictures of themselves and post on Instagram, that rock and that t-shirt shirt actually is the thing that gets them to do that. If you just send the book itself, it's like, oh, it's a nice book. But then it's like, what's this thing? And everybody loves a t-shirt. When I started my business, that was one of the first things I did was get t-shirts printed that ironically 25 years ago had a Ralph Waldo Emerson quote on them as well. I think if you sent these t-shirts out, I'm not 100% sure if that would make the connection, but it's the t-shirt with the book that I think really kind of tips the scales.

Yeah, and I think it's thinking more holistically about these campaigns and strategically in the sense of how they each touch each other, because they're all interconnected. When they— or I should say, when they are interconnected, they have so much more power. And going back to the first part of the conversation we were having about digital replacing or physical products replacing digital, whereas the thing— the way we need to think about it, instead of anything replacing anything, whether that's promo replacing print, print replacing digital, is thinking of this, you know, symbiotic relationship each of these components have. And I know that's a big part of your consulting through the years, John, as these connected points that we have, because when you can really attach these to a strategic purpose and interconnect all of them, it's magic.

Yeah. And years ago, we used to do these, we call them lumpy mail campaigns. Yeah. And typically there were a 3-part series and we would you know, we would get maybe a coffee mug or, you know, something, you know, might be just your standard kind of, you know, promotional products, you know, product, right? You know, pens, you know, coffee mugs, right? The most standard thing there is. But we would tie them to a message that was about the brand or was about a product launch. And then we would, you know, tie that around a mailing that, you know, usually ended up involving a sales call. And I think that's where you can take something that people just generally get printed and put in the closet and, you know, occasionally give out to people when they come by the office or something. That's where you can take that totally generic or seemingly generic item, but put it in context that actually tells a whole story.

Yeah. One of the things we can encourage all of our listeners come from the print promotional industry and some screen printers, but all of them are dealing in, in branded products of some kind. And one of the things that I don't think we ask enough of our top clients is what is your digital strategy? And then proactively asking them, you know, what is their digital strategy and how— and mapping products that we sell to that strategy as opposed to either replacing it or, or not even really thinking about it at all. Because they all have a very powerful digital strategy, and it makes me wonder if we're not asking that question enough.

Well, and I tell you another mistake that I see businesses of any kind make is a lot of times their strategy is around selling their product as opposed to solving their client's problem. Right, right. And, and so first we got to understand what that problem is. I don't think anybody wants to is, you know, a promotional product. What they want is the response that they might get from a client, or let's face it, more sales. And so I think if we start there and then, and then, you know, kind of work backwards to what, you know, what problem can we promise to solve for our clients rather than what product are we selling?

I have John, your blog post up here, and I just want to read just 2 or 3 sentences here and then we'll get into a conversation about it. So the title of this section of the blog post is called Continue to Add Value. To quote you, when we talk about great sales materials, we're talking about materials that continue to add value. Sure, your branded magnets, tote bags, and pens might be fun little add-ons, but how often does that tote bag end up at the bottom of someone's desk drawer and the magnet find itself relegated to the side of the office fridge? Branded tchotchkes don't further your conversations with prospects, whereas great sales materials do. And when I read that, I wholeheartedly agreed with you. This is someone who's had a strong background in the industry, Bobby, you too. And I think that most people listening to this podcast would also agree with it. And what I find so interesting in just hearing your use of promotional products is that there's this difference between tchotchkes, which is just stuff that's ordered at the last minute that is, there's a bit of a mismatch with the client's marketing objective. So it does end up in the bottom of the drawer. At best, at worst it's just thrown out versus the t-shirt and the rock campaign that you're talking about, which is incredibly strategic and intentional. That's not tchotchkes, that's promotional merchandise that is there to solve a legitimate marketing problem. I'll say one other comment here because you mentioned tote bags that we had this fascinating conversation with Elizabeth Segran, who is a staff writer at Fast Company that was talking about some of the maybe not so good sides of the promotional products industry. Yet she referred to a New Yorker tote bag as being this high watermark of promotional products. And it's so true in terms of like how people will go and actively go out of their way and subscribe to the New Yorker because they can get a $6 tote bag that they walk around and they advertise the New Yorker and it shows them, you know, communicates to the outside world that they're a New Yorker subscriber. And it's just so fascinating, right? Like that tote bag did not end up at the bottom of a drawer. It's ended up on your shoulder walking around Manhattan. So it's, uh, it's quite amazing how intentionality changes the perception between promotional products and tchotchkes.

Well, and, and I think also one thing to note is, is the reason that that is because the, the, that tote bag is helping that person tell a story about themselves.

Yep.

And, and that, you know, so that's a great brand match, you know, for, for the New Yorker. But to just copy that without that ingredient, you know, you're not going to have the same success.

Yeah. And we're all saying the same thing and we're using the words intention and strategic a lot. John, you know, a lot of customers put a lot of their vendors, if you will, into a need-to-know basis. And so you don't really get involved, invited in the strategic part of the process early. You know, whether— do you have some advice on how we can approach customers with a more strategic sell? And I know this is a million-dollar question. One of the things that we've been able to come up with is, number one, be a brilliant practitioner of your own medium and train customers how they can be used. What ways have you seen folks arrive at a more strategic point in the selling process?

Well, one of the things that I've seen people do well and we've tried to emulate ourselves is we actually try to get customers involved in It feels like they're helping us, but they're really, you know, in a lot of ways they're helping themselves. But so for example, when we design an initiative or even a course or something, we do it with them. And what we find is we end up creating a much better end product, one that we know people, you know, there's a ready audience for, there are people who are willing to use. And I think that that could apply as well. If you, you know, again, a lot of it takes a lot of it comes from having a lot of trust. I mean, if they see you as a vendor, as somebody who, you know, they just call up when they need something, as opposed to somebody who's going to actually give them thoughtful ideas, thoughtful campaigns, ways to actually solve, you know, as we alluded to, problems, then they're going to invite you in to have that discussion. And I think when you, when you continue to kind of nurture that type of relationship, then you, you know, you can be selling the most mundane thing, you know, on the planet and still be seen as, as an advisor.

Yeah.

John, switching gears a little bit here and getting into some of your, your other work, you write a lot about the customer journey and the duct tape marketing philosophy's point is that marketing is a system. Can you talk with us about the marketing hourglass and the 7 distinct phases?

You bet. So customer journey, the term customer journey has become, you know, really, really hot over the last, seems like the last 5 or 6 years. You look at Google Trends and, you know, it was kind of 10 years ago, it was a real, uh, you know, non-factor. And now it's just, you know, it— everybody's talking about it. So about 15 years ago, I created something I called the Marketing Hourglass, and it was actually a little bit of a reaction to the, the tried and true marketing funnel. So if you think about the funnel, you know, get a whole bunch of people at the top, a few of them squeeze down, you know, through that thing and become customers. And what I believe firmly is that, that once you get that point where they become a customer, that's where you start over again, or that's where some of the work should go into, you know, and the whole referral engine, you know, that entire book was about the kind of the bottom of the hourglass, meaning that, you know, happy customer is your best source of the top of the funnel, the best source of the lead. So you, that's kind of my idea behind that shape. It borrows from the funnel, but it certainly adds on the whole bottom part of that, of the hourglass. So those stages are know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat, and refer. And I actually refer to them as behaviors. Because I, I really think that, that they represent the 7 behaviors that buyers actually want to participate in with the brands and the companies that they do business with. So we all want to come to know companies who can solve our problems. And certainly once we know who they are, we're going to dig in and say, you know, do I like what they're saying? Do I like their website? Do I like their message? And then obviously once we pass that barrier, we want to know, is this somebody I can trust? Have other people gotten results? Do people talk about them? Do they review them? You know, do— are they providing value to me before I become a customer, all those kind of trust markers. And then I, you know, I love it when I can try a company or at least try what it might be like to work with a company. And then certainly, you know, this is a place where most marketers drop the ball. You know, once, once I've convinced that you can solve my problem, I want that experience to stay just as high. You know, when I say yes, I want to buy. And then, you know, I certainly find companies and products and services that I rely on that they do a great job. I, you know, so I go back to them. I don't, you know, I don't want to go looking looking for a new resource. If somebody's taking care of my needs, I, you know, I want to just— I'm done. I don't go, I don't price shop, you know, I just, I stay there. And then I think as human beings, you know, we're all kind of wired to talk about companies or experiences that exceed our expectations. And so that, that idea of getting your, your customers to talk, and, and which is, you know, another form of referral, I think is, is actually something we want to do. So those behaviors— know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat, refer— are I've been talking about the last few years that I think our job as marketers is not to create or drive demand, it's to organize behavior. And those 7 behaviors all have different questions and objectives. I mean, a lot of people refer to them as stages, but we as business owners, we as marketers need to be thinking about how do we guide people on those 7 stages or those 7 behaviors Knowing that they actually want to participate in them, how do we intentionally build campaigns and processes and initiatives to make sure that we are actually addressing them?

You know, an interesting map to that know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat, refer is to map the customer's emotional journey along with this. You're sort of doing both in the same, but I think what we practitioners of like print, promo, digital, direct mail all need to understand better when our customers call us is how will this project or our medium most impact the customer into the next phase of their buyer's journey? How does our campaign help solve the problem, customer's problem at each phase? We once had, when I was a distributor, we once had a billion-dollar sales organization. They were a staffing firm as a client, and they used co-branded leadership books as a way to build trust with buyers, and it was very effective. They had a $50 budget, and we ended up packaging books as sets like John Maxwell series and wrapping them in a custom box, and they used them for very hard-to-reach executive decision makers, and it was incredibly effective because because it built trust in the brand, co-branded with a very trustworthy name and leadership, and began to map that emotion of trust to that particular brand. It was on the other end of the spectrum, and we did thousands of these through the years. I mean, every, every year was a significant campaign. On the other end of the spectrum, we had this crazy Potato Head campaign. Now, this is going to sound funny, but the client would deliver to their prospect parts of Mr. Potato Head in pieces and eventually put together an entire— it sounds really kind of cheesy. And, but what would happen is it delighted the customers and it was, it was just used at a different phase. It was meant to get attention. And actually it was, it was attached with a print campaign that tied in with the customer's objective. And it was incredibly successful because again, it was sort of helping engage the customer in a very tactile way. I think mostly we just need to think about a lot about intention. And then this audience knows that, believes that. But one thing maybe we don't do enough is sort of map it to which part of of journey is this, is this project for?

You know, it's funny. Can I tell you about a promotional products fail? Yeah, go ahead, please. Yeah. Then this was me, so I can tell on myself, but you know, duct tape is a great promotional product. Just goes with my brand, goes with my name. So I found this company that was packaging. They would take, I don't know how much it was, about 8 inches maybe of duct tape with a backer on it and they'd package it up in these little kits and the idea was, or, you know, just like a little folded you know, piece that would fit in your pocket or fit in a glove box. And the idea was that, you know, if you were traveling or if you're in your boat or something, you know, and you had an inner tube, that you'd have this kind of— instead of the whole roll, you'd have this little packet of duct tape, right? And so I thought, well, this is bright. I'll package these up. I have a little— and it had a little insert in there that had my brand and contact information on it. But when the product was done, it resembled the package of a them. Oh no. And I did not think of this, but every single person that I handed them to did. And so I, you know, I turned it, I turned it around by saying, yes, I just want you to practice safe marketing. Was it good?

Safe.

Good. Safe. Sorry. Sorry if that was not appropriate for you.

No, it's fantastic.

No, there's a lot of folks that will have, that will have a lot of promo fails in their, in their bag here too.

That reminds me of a Years and years ago, we did branded condoms for a customer, and literally, no joke, the way that you branded them was to put a little card around them. But when the supplier— so the condom itself wasn't branded, but it was like a little, like imagine a little matchstick cover— supplier attached the little logo card, they stapled it, but right through the condom.

Oh no.

There you go.

Is practicing not safe sex. That was— needless to say, the customer got a full refund for their order.

But yeah, John, you've written— switching gears a little bit here— you've written extensively about marketing and business, from duct tape marketing to referral engine SEO. And now this new book's fascinating to me, The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur: 366 Daily Meditations to Feed Your Soul and Grow Your Business. It's unique from your other books. It's organized as a daily devotional, 366 entries, one for each day of the year including leap year. And each day starts with a reading from a Transcendentalist-era author like Emerson, Willa Cather, one of my all-time favorites by the way, Walt Whitman, Louise May Alcott, and Thoreau. And it's followed by reflection and application for today's entrepreneur. I loved the format because I had a similar book by Peter Drucker that I read through one year called Daily Drucker, which was a great way to pause and start the day. What I love about your book is how it's organized by seasons of the entrepreneur's life: planning, discovering, evolving, and growing. And each month has a theme like creativity or resilience. It would seem at first glance that these transcendentalist authors might not have much in common with today's entrepreneur, but 100 to 150 years ago, it was an incredible time of innovation and exploration. It also seems like this book might find a perfect time today as more and more entrepreneurs emerging sort of conscientious as being using a business as a force for good, to steal B Corp's tagline. I mean, you could argue that businesses are becoming More Mindful Today. How has writing this book changed or impacted the way you view the entrepreneur's life?

Sure. So this is an interesting book because this is part of a practice. It fits right into a practice that I have done for some 20 years of kind of having a centering, you know, daily inspirational read. I think entrepreneurship is one of the greatest self-development programs ever created. So this is a bit of, I guess, a self-development book as well. So I've been writing this book probably for 20 years and it In a lot of ways, it was kind of a culmination of my thinking, my views on what it takes kind of from mind, body, spirit to get up and do this every day for many years. But, it was interesting in writing it in a very— So, if you think about I studied this stuff or thought about this stuff for 20 years and then I sat down and wrote a book in a year. That kind of brought it all together. And of course, intense amount of research to get the materials that I curated in there. And so, it was almost like a crash course self-development for myself. So, I actually feel like I came away, and I think a lot of authors will tell you this, I came away benefiting as much as I think anybody who reads this book over the course of a year will just in my own kind of relationship to my own business and to my own journey and to maybe even my definition of success. You know, all those things I think have been a little bit shaped by just immersing myself in kind of this type of thinking.

Yeah. I think it was Wendell Berry who said, we read to know we're not alone. And I think it's that daily connection with those folks and particularly entrepreneurs that could pick up this book. I'm saying this mostly from my experience with Drucker. It seemed like every day when I opened up Drucker's book, I was facing a challenge that week with something that he had touched on. Of course, you know, he's one of the great management management consultants of all time. But the same can be for your book as well. I can see why that would be a critical practice, daily practice for folks, just to touch what takes 5 minutes a day just to jump in and connect with someone, to know we're not alone in this journey, for one thing.

Yeah. And it's become a pretty established practice, I think, for a lot of entrepreneurs to have some sort of morning and maybe even evening ritual where they might journal, they might read something, they might meditate, whatever to get themselves kind of going for the day. And then maybe kind of at the end of the day, kind of recap what they did or what they witnessed or what they're grateful for. And so it certainly fits into that in some space.

That was a segue into the last question I had, John. But in terms of feedback that you've gotten from entrepreneurs about the book, outside of what you just said, are there any other things that have surprised you with regard to feedback from readers of the book?

I don't know that this is a huge surprise, but I am taken aback by how many people read this mid-19th century literature, so 150 years ago literature, and say, "Wow, I just can't believe how it sounds like it was written yesterday." Obviously, flowery language, there's poetry, there's some words that are no longer used necessarily on a daily basis. But, when Thoreau talks about the distractions and how we have to simplify It's, it's like he's talking about Facebook and getting off of it. And many, many people have, have made that, uh, that comment.

As you read these authors and as you sort of connected with them, who did you discover along the way that really impressed you that you weren't— didn't already know? Like, maybe we're all familiar with Walt Whitman's poetry, but did you come in contact with a few names that kind of blew your mind?

Well, there were two, two female authors in particular that I, I just wasn't familiar with. A lot of people aren't familiar with because a lot of the, the right— their writing wasn't really showcased certainly at the time. Anybody who studied feminist literature certainly is familiar with Margaret Fuller who wrote Women of the 19th Century, which was kind of the Bible for the women's suffrage movement. And then you already mentioned Willa Cather. I was actually not that familiar with her writing other than probably seeing the movie O Pioneers or something. But I was really struck by most of her work is about kind of the land and settling the land and A lot of it is in Nebraska. And it's amazing. I was really touched by how she uses the land almost as a character in all of her works. And so she was somebody I had not read and probably fits into that discovery. I have an idea if you guys don't mind for a minute and a half, why don't I read today's entry?

Yeah, let's do it.

Great idea. Because we've been talking about the concept, but let's give people a free sample, shall There we go. So this is— we're recording this on February 24th, so I just grabbed February 24th. Every day has a title and then a short reading and then my 100-150 words and then your question. All right, today's entry is titled Fear and Doubt. Adhere to your own act and congratulate yourself if you have done something strange and extravagant and broken the monotony of a decorous age. It was a high counsel that I once heard given to a young person "Always do what you're afraid to do." That was from Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay "Heroism," written in 1841. Face the fear and do it. In addition to sounding a bit like a marketing slogan, that statement has become standard advice for entrepreneurs. Before you push it aside as yet another thing you're supposed to do, sit with this idea: fear and doubt show up to tell you something. You can choose to ignore them, but they probably won't go away. Learn to tune into your fears and doubts. Witness them, study them, laugh at them, and then you just might become a bit more fully aware of your true path. Steven Pressfield's The War of Art, the book-length version of today's reading, offers this nugget to chew on: Are you paralyzed with fear? That's a good sign. Fear is good. Like self-doubt, fear is an indicator. Fear tells us what we have to do. Hmm. Your challenge question today: what scares you the most about your journey?

Why?

I love it.

I love it. And that's a great book, The War of Art. Oh, it blew my mind. I read it about 10 years ago. He's like a take-no-prisoners kind of author, that Steven Pressfield.

Yeah, he's, uh, he's also a pretty well-noted screenwriter. Yes, he wrote The Legend of Bigger Vance. Remember that Yeah.

Oh yeah.

That's right. Wow. Well, John, that's an amazing reading there and I think is great motivation for folks to consider picking it up. What I love about that concept, and you've written lots of books, but what I love about this new concept is that it's a very brief amount of time you have to invest every day to read it and it's great to consider these challenges. I think that even though we take a lot of risks here at our day jobs, I think it's a great reminder to know that Sometimes we need to step outside our comfort zones and do the things that we're most fearful for or fearful of.

And I think Bobby alluded to this too. I mean, this literature was written at a time when we were on the cusp of the Civil War. Women were trying to get the right to vote. We were trying to abolish the legal act of slavery. And it was kind of the first countercultural period in America where people were finally starting to say, oh, maybe we don't have to listen to our politicians or to our preachers or to even our parents. Maybe we have to follow our heart. And I think that historians historians talk about things repeating themselves historically. And I feel like we are at some sort of crossroads right now. And the idea of a more self-reliant entrepreneur, I think, might just be the answer to maybe healing some of the divide that seems to be pretty prevalent.

Yeah, it's a great point. It's a great point. John, thanks for joining us today. It's funny how this conversation started out with a tweet. It's amazing to me, though, that we're all on the same page when it comes to effective and purpose. We went from purpose-driven promotions and making sure that we do that to purpose-driven lives to the purpose-driven entrepreneur's life. And I think that's just a great summation of where we've been today in the conversation. You know, be intentional, be purposeful, and that's where we're all going to find much more joy in the journey. Thanks for joining us, John.

It was my pleasure.

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SKU Cast.

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