Episode 158: The Turnaround with Christa Ramus and Joseph Sommer, Whitestone Branding

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. Skucast is the official podcast of Common Skew.

When the pandemic hit, New York City was the epicenter. Joe Summer of Whitestone Branding had just been honored as the Distributor Entrepreneur of the Year at SkewCon, and he decided to take a brief sabbatical after years of hard work and building a business. Then COVID hit. Located in New York, Whitestone's clients were largely experiential marketing agencies, and many of the projects they did were for events. Sales plummeted. Joe did what many of us did. Joe questioned and reconsidered everything. If sales were dropping so significantly that it meant literally starting over, was it time to quit and pursue something else? Standing on this precipice, Joe made a decision and instead of quitting, decided to reinvent and reinvest in himself, his team, and his business. They reorganized, built an entirely new web experience, huddled as a team, came out of it, and made some critical decisions. This is the subject of our chat today. Hi friends, I'm Bobby LeHouth, Chief Content Officer at Common Skew. I'm joined by Joe Summer and Krista Ramos of Whitestone Branding. Joe's the owner of Whitestone, a boutique branded products agency founded in New York City in 2013. Whitestone was recently honored with a spot on the Inc. 5000 list of fastest growing private companies in the US for the third year in a row. As a seasoned vet at 30 years old, this is the only career and job Joe has ever known. Krista Ramos is the Director of Marketing and Sales at Whitestone Branding. She's an alumna of the University of Delaware, where she studied media communication, advertising, and journalism. Krista loves fashion and design, and she uses this passion and knowledge when working on new ways to innovate and market the company. One quick note, the industry's only virtual training experience dedicated solely to thriving in sales will be happening on Thursday, October 8th, from 2 to 5 EST. And in just a few short hours, you'll hear from folks like Mike Michalowicz, Dale Griffin, Danny Rosen, and Katherine Graham as we share how to refuel, refocus, and reenergize our sales teams to make sales growth a passion again. You can register and learn more at commonscue.com/sessionsatome. Today's episode is brought to you by CommonSkew, the work-from-anywhere platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling you to process more orders and dramatically grow your sales. To learn more or to begin your free trial now, visit commonskew.com. And now here's my conversation with Krista and Joe. But I just have to say this. When I listen to Joe and Krista, I don't hear just tactics, how they turn things around. But you know this, when you talk with someone and really engage in lean forward listening, whether it's through a podcast recording or across the table over coffee, you know that what's conveyed is much more than mere words. And what I hear when I listen to Joe and Krista talk is an attitude that says, we're not taking no for an answer. We're not quitting and we're not allowing anyone else to tell us what won't work anymore. We're getting back to basics, trying new things, and here's what they are. So I hope you hear that too. And if you are encouraged by this episode, share it with your team or a few friends. Now here's Joe and Krista. Joe, COVID hits.

The majority of your business is with event-based marketing. You had just won our Entrepreneur of the Year Award. This is back in January. You take a well-deserved, long-planned sabbatical, and COVID hits. You and your team are crushed through this process. Do I have that right?

Yeah, I was actually 3 weeks into a 3.5-month sabbatical from Whitestone when the, the whole world flipped upside down.

Yeah.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed at the time, because you and I talked on the phone, that you were so demoralized you literally struggled with the idea of keeping the doors open.

Yeah, I think the hardest part through all of it was, you know, for me at least, coming home and then immediately having to make layoffs. I came home March 14th, and then I laid off 6 amazing employees March 17th. And so During that time, people were dying left and right in New York City, and it just didn't seem that selling promotional products was, or really approaching business and conducting business in a normal setting seemed to be appropriate. So not necessarily shutting the doors, but navigating through it all was just a challenge and something that I had never experienced. And I don't think anyone on the team or New York City had experienced it. So, you know, we took aggressive actions really to save the business. And so, yeah, we laid off 6 employees March 17th. On April 6th, we furloughed the entire staff, including myself. And this was really a move to protect the business cash flow because at that time, PPP loans were really uncertain and no one knew when government relief was coming. And there was no positive signs in the world So it really became, how do we protect the business to fight another day, not knowing when that day would be?

Yeah. And, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you had a large percentage of event-based marketing, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. We were down 98% the month of April and 70% the month of May. We were really hit hard.

Krista, I met you in New York City while we were on our sessions tour, and I appreciated how strategic your thinking was, quick and ambitious you are. What was it like for you during during this time? I mean, can you paint a quick picture for us as to what you were going through with the business?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, similar to what Joseph said, prior to the pandemic, I mean, he was, he was on sabbatical. We, you know, we'd grown our team almost double from the point I had started just a little over a year prior. We were making just tons of progress on creating concrete processes as a business, refreshing our brand, really having great sales and working on a lot of projects with our experiential marketing agency clients. A lot of campaigns happening and, you know, things came to a halt almost immediately after having just a couple of really great sales weeks. It was just an immediate halt and it was really difficult time trying to figure out, you know, what was going to happen next. I mean, as a company, we, you know, we had to downsize, we had to make pivots and like Joseph said, we weren't able to really sell as we normally were. You know, no one really felt like it was okay to be promoting, you know, you can't be promoting event products or fun wacky products or creative things when people are really concerned about a serious health problem and trying to get that to stop. Even promoting sales of PPE felt, you know, just a little wrong because we didn't want to profit off of anything that was happening. And I'd say it was definitely very challenging. And really throughout the whole time, I just felt all I could really do is kind of keep up my optimism and really have faith that we would come up with a solution and figure out what we were going to do as a business and how we were going to pivot. Just because I really have faith in my team. Everyone's very creative and I knew we were going to be able to do something.

Well, and I know we all know this because recent history is so vivid in our minds, but you were on the crucible. This was the epicenter at that time of, of the pandemic in New York City. And so it was an intense time for you guys. Joe, I'll make this hard question simple. What happened? What made you decide to not quit, but forge on and not only forge on, but sort of reinvent in a sense your business and create a whole new strategy?

You know, I think a big part of our culture at Whitestone is built around growth. We have a 5-year goal. And if you ask anyone in the company, they'll tell you what our revenue will be in 2021, 2022, and so on. And so for us, it was really about how do we put the last few months behind us, get back on the horse, so to speak, and really get back in that growth mentality. You know, it's, you're either gonna get busy living or you're gonna get busy dying. And I've always kind of had the mindset that if you're not growing, you're dying. So when we received PPP, we had a full day offsite. We put a plan in place to start to rebuild the business again. And then after PPP, 8 weeks later, we had another full day offsite to talk about what's next, what our goals are, what are the projects we want to work on, how has the landscape changed, who's buying, what are they buying. And we really tried to reposition the business as quickly and as effectively as possible to stand out in this market. You know, I wasn't in business, I was in college in 2008 when the last recession happened. So None of us on the team really had experience to draw on from that last recession, but I think what we all knew was that, you know, in times like these, the people that are gonna come out on top are the people that market their business. And so we did just that. You know, we said, you know, our current customers weren't necessarily buying, so we now need to go get a whole new set of clients. And so we turned the marketing engines on and we just went full steam ahead, business development, And, you know, a large part of that was putting Krista in the marketing and biz dev role. And we really just made it a priority to get our names out there and to show people that, you know, we're here, we're here to service projects and we're here to create awesome products for awesome businesses. And I think we're succeeding at that.

So I hear the strategic thinking, the offsites. It sounds like you were very transparent with your company about where you were at, the current state of the business. Help us understand a little bit more. You shifted strategy to customers. What did that mean in terms of tactics? And maybe Krista, you're the chief architect of the brand. Tell me about the transition that you've been through as a creative person, as a salesperson, as a branding person to do a 180 from your previous business to this new strategy. What did it mean not only strategically, but what did it mean tactically? When you say, hey, we had these offsites and we really powered to come up with a new initiative. What did that look like?

Absolutely. You know, looking at our, you know, past tactics and kind of what we were doing to sell, we've really had to make a huge change because, you know, we're not selling to events people anymore. We're not creating products for these pop-up shops and things that are happening where people are going to touch and feel. We needed to target a completely new audience of customers, completely new demographic. And, you know, with an industry like promotional products, there's so many companies and it's so dense that, that there are other opportunities and there are other companies that are buying. It's just about kind of thinking about what those opportunities are and creating it for yourself and just positioning yourself differently. So for us, it was very important for us to continue to differentiate ourselves from the other companies in the industry from what we do. And, you know, I think that our brand is a really strong reflection of that. You know, our team's personalities really come out through our branding, whether that's our website, our social media, or just any of our marketing collateral. You know, really just people that we are solutions first and we are creative and we're going to do, you know, whatever we need to do to make them look good for their company and really just help them to create products for their marketing mix. So, that was definitely a really big focus of ours is just kind of refreshing that and figuring out how we needed to change things.

What type of clients did this mean for you guys? Did it mean a complete shift in terms of the market you were going after?

Yeah. In lieu of strategically just targeting events, you know, we had to think about corporate companies and people who are going virtual. You know, virtual events are something that have been so big, and kitting is something that we've always been fairly strong at as a business. But this has been a time for us to kind of reevaluate and reposition ourselves to really go after that market and really target that and grow that area of our business.

Krista, while we're talking about this, I know that, that So you shifted the brand, and I know that branding is more than a kick-ass website, but I have to say, I love the refresh. You already know my favorite. My fav is the PMS colors. I first saw those on Instagram. What went into the website refresh that reflects the new initiative? Or maybe a better way of asking this is, what did you learn about the process that you can share with others to help them build their own new experience?

Definitely. You know, creating the website, it was a really strong collaboration between, you know, Joseph and I and our design team. We had a new designer come on that has a really strong understanding of the brand and, you know, background in creating websites, so we were really able to collaborate and just create new content for the site, really just give it a refresh and create some new key pieces like the comments, new shops on this site, you know, all our new case studies, everything there so that people can really interact and, and get something from the website. You know, I think something big, and just from my research, you know, in the industry and different websites and where people are shopping, it's you want to Amazon the experience. You want to make it easy for them and really just remove any friction in order for them to, you know, come to you and reach out with an opportunity without having to, you know, go back and forth and answer any questions. Just make everything very cut and dry and simple.

What's the most important element of a website that's reflective of your brand's personality and that actually creates engagement? You know, a lot of us have the dangerous thing. The cool thing about our industry is that we're very friendly and very well connected. The dangerous thing about our industry is that we can often look similar to each other, even when we're trying to be at our most progressive part, and we have a lot of product to sell. So we have to distill what we do down into some essential keys that reflect the brand's personality as a living, breathing person. What, what do you think are the most important elements if someone's listening to this saying, you know what, I love their story, I love how they turned it around, and we need a refresh too?

Yeah, I think it's just important that when someone lands on your website, there's something that really draws them in and just shows them immediately what you do and how you do it. Case studies being a really important aspect. Of that, showing that you've done it before, you're pros in this space, and you can do it again, and you can do it for their company in a very unique way. This is something that is part of their marketing mix. They're spending a decent amount of money on this. Their logo is getting printed on it. So you want to make a really positive impression there. And then in terms of how you're setting it up on the website, you need to focus on who your target demographic is. Who's your buyer? Are you selling to financial companies or are you selling to CPG companies? You know, how should you set it up and what types of images should you incorporate in order to win their business? You know, you need to focus on showing examples from that industry so they know that you're pros in the space, just they have a clear understanding of what you do, how you can help them, and the solutions that you can just really come up with.

Yeah. Joe, tell me about Shops and the Shops integration.

What have you guys been doing with Shops?

Great question. What always seemed to stick out when prospects or customers would reach out to us would be, can you send us a link to your catalog? And we've never been a catalog company, and so we wanted to solve that, but we wanted to also be original. And Shops to us really solved that so well for us because we could put trend shops that we've curated onto the website, and anytime someone reaches out we can easily redirect them back to the site where they see case studies, where they see our personality, but then they also have the ability to go and browse some awesome products. So the integration of the trend shop was, was so key when we were building the site. We said, how do we show people some of our favorite products but do it in a really friendly and easy way that solves that question of some of your catalog? And the shops, the Commonsku shops was just the answer through and through. And we're just so happy to have that up on our site. And the best part is we can refresh those shops anytime we want. We can add new ones anytime we want, so it can always be evolving.

Yeah, I love that too. And how quickly and fast you can do that. Krista, what's your favorite part of the site that really reflects your hard work and your brand?

Yeah, I mean, I really have to agree and just say the trend shops, you know, I think that has really been a key new factor. And like Joseph said, it's very easy to refresh them and easily update rather than working off of the traditional catalog format. You're kind of set to it. You have to go in and make these major edits and refresh, and it's just this whole task versus the shop. So you can easily update photos, easily update those products. And you think of all the foot traffic coming to your website from either Google searches or social media or any sort of emails, you know, people will go to your, go to your website and be able to immediately see the products that you can offer them or just get some ideas if they have a question and it starts the conversation right away.

And I think to add to Krista's start the conversation right away, we wanted to and we're always looking to perfect the customer journey. And so we just want to create less friction. So when someone says, can you send us a catalog? You know, our answer previously was, Oh, we make catalogs custom. Tell us about your opportunity. You know, and then if they don't get back to you right away, you have to follow up and automatically you're creating friction. If you can just send them to this amazing link that has everything they already need, you're just getting into the process so much faster and you're really— you're getting to the sales order one step quicker.

Krista, let me ask this of you. Krista, where do you get your inspiration from? What brands inspire you? You're in a very sophisticated market. You guys are in probably one of the toughest markets in the US. Both industry and non-industry brands, where do you, where do you get your inspiration from?

Absolutely. You know, I think when drawing inspiration from the industry, really looking at the top distributorships and seeing what they're doing and what's working for them, you know, whether that is having an online shoppable catalog where people can go on and find those products immediately, you know, what makes their experience so easy from the, from the, you know, the digital perspective when the customer lands on their website, what's really drawn people in. And then if you look at companies that are going more B2C, you know, companies just in general outside of the industry that I get inspiration from, you know, you look at companies doing marketing right, like, you know, Target for example, or Glossier. You think about Target, all of their advertising is very minimal but very bold and really just shows their brand and is all very in alignment, you know, whether that's their copy, the imagery that they're using, everything just ties in and just makes you want to spend more money. You know, you go into a Target, you come out with 20 more things than you went in for because they make everything look so much better. And, you know, that's just something that you really need to incorporate. And you also think about other brands, you know, whether that's in fashion or CPG, all of these companies are really working to kind of align on their branding and they really have been minimizing their logos, minimizing their branding and making it very simple for the consumer. And I think that's something that we're focusing on because you have to stay up to date on the trends, especially as the buyer's getting younger and younger and we're working with more of a millennial market. You want to be a company that they're going to align with, you know, not only for a business perspective, what they're going to buy from you, but they want to have this like emotional connection with you and understand that they can work with you in a very easy way. And that's, you know, employees at the company that they can work with very easily. And that's something that we need to show in our marketing in order to draw in that, in that target customer.

Joe, you mentioned removing the friction through the buying process, and obviously we're huge believers. That's, that's our passion. And we also know that simplicity sells, just simplicity in general, particularly today as we are all just exhausted from this very complex world in which we live in. Talk a little bit more about simplicity and what it means to you.

Yeah. You know, simplicity to me is, is making sure that I think the whole organization knows what the plan is and having more or less a sales motto or a way in which you go about things And just being super consistent internally with that is key. So, you know, every quarter we have a sales motto in our company, and, and everyone knows what that is. And a lot of times it's, it's based on simplicity.

What's the motto right now?

Go with what works. And what works for us is customer spec samples, showing customers fresh ideas. You know, one of the reasons why distributors lose customers is because they don't show enough ideas. So You know, this quarter it's all about fresh ideas, going back to the customers that haven't spent this year and showing them fresh ideas. So, you know, go with what works. It's, it's simple. Make spec samples, give them fresh ideas. And then in our world, we love customer kits. We produce 2 to 3 really robust customer appreciation kits every year that have a really unique unboxing experience. That our customers look forward to receiving. And I think that creates some, some loyalty with our brand. And it's simple—spec samples, fresh ideas, and giving them wowed customer appreciation kits. And that's what's working for us.

Joe, what has been the most reinvigorating opportunities you're seeing in the market that give you hope?

I think a lot of businesses are are reevaluating where they spend their money. I think that's the most exciting thing is that we're hearing customers or prospects weekly tell us, we're looking at changing vendors and we would like to incorporate Whitestone in that process. And that to me is, while this year may be rocky, it tells me that there are greener pastures ahead. And I'm hoping that that, you know, this year we'll get through it and 2021 will slingshot our business with some great new relationships that we didn't have in previous years. Yeah.

How about you, Krista?

Yeah, I think it's just been amazing to see all of our clients and just working with them, seeing them get really creative. You know, I think prior to the pandemic, people were trying to reinvent ideas with their, you know, creative in-person events, but kind of ending up with the same sort of giveaway every single time. They're really forced to truly think outside of the box. As corny as this sounds, you know, they're, they're shipping in a literal box, like they have to ship it in a literal box. So, you know, I think it's really fun to work with clients to figure out how can we create a product or a gift or an item for your audience, for your event attendee that's going to keep up brand awareness and get them engaged with your brand without actually having them in person to know that they were actually interacting with you. And it's, it's really fun for our team to work together and collaborate and come up with these fun ideas and really get creative and do what we do best.

Kristi, can you give me an example? And Joe, I'll ask you the same question. Can you give me an example of a project you work on that reflects this sort of new evolving client? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, we've worked on so many kidding opportunities at this point. It almost seems like they're just getting all blended together. You know, I think there's been just absolutely so many events. But, you know, I think specifically recently we had a client more in the corporate space where they have executives going to an event online, just a small run where they had 3 different events and needed a kit to come together and show these people that they were thinking of them. And in lieu of having that traditional in-person event where they would have a snack in the morning, in the afternoon, and a cup of coffee and a happy hour, well, we can bring that to them and deliver them coffee in a mug and a snack for the AM and PM in that item that they're going to get at the event. Likewise, we had another client who's working on awards gifting where we were able to put together completely custom video brochure boxes with a secret message from their family and friends, a bottle of really nice champagne, and an award. Something that they would've gotten in person, but it's bringing it to life and it's bringing that box to life by adding that video component, making it just way different than a standard brown craft box.

Yeah, that's cool. Joe, how about you?

I think the most rewarding thing is I feel more than ever at the table with our clients. In the past, it just felt like, you know, if they have $20,000 set aside for swag, they don't necessarily put the thought behind it to really see ROI with that. But now, so more than ever, swag is allowing us a seat at the table to do what we do best, and that's offer creative solutions. So I don't necessarily have a favorite, but I think the creativity I'm seeing from the team day in and day out is just blowing my mind. And where we're sourcing product from, from the industry and also from outside the industry, is, I think, showing our customers really why we add value. And I'll give you an example of that. We had a client that wanted to fill kits with products sourced entirely from Africa. And so we did just that and we found our vendors on Etsy and we didn't say no. We were able to turn around a beautiful proposal within 48 hours and we knocked it out of the park. And that client knows that they're going to come to us and we're not going to say no, but we're going to come up with solutions. And, you know, anyone listening to this, I love our industry vendors and this is not to say don't ever source from them, but this is to say People want to do business, people want to sell product, and there are unique ways you can go about sourcing products, and there are unique ways you can decorate products with third-party decorators. And so I think now more than ever, originality is going to win business, and, and how you service your clients, they're, they're going to know if you're different or if you're not.

Yep, yep, very true. Krista, you have a new role heading up marketing and biz dev, so let's talk about biz dev. And Joe, I know it's a passion for you too. What are some goals for business development, particularly, particularly now? It's never been tougher to reach out to new clients. It's also never been better in some ways. How— what's your goals and how are you reaching hard-to-reach prospects now? Definitely.

You know, I personally come from a cold calling background. I started my career in cold calling where I was making over 100 dials a day and pitching 3 people a day and closing sales every single day. And, you know, I know that people are going to hang up on you. I know that people are going to flat out say no. But I think that's something that's so important in any type of business, you know, with sales is you have to have tenacity and grit and understand that while you're, you know, you might lose some opportunities, some people may tell you to leave them alone, you know, you have to keep persistence, know that one opportunity might not come through for you, but there's another one there. You just have to uncover it. You have to, you know, find these leads and qualify them, figure out who's going to work best with your business. And again, like I mentioned previously, in a type of industry like promotional products, there are so many opportunities. Opportunities to create product, you know, whether that's for retail-level businesses, whether that's signage, whether that's, you know, you know, things for a CPG company. There's all different ways. You just really have to think outside of the box and do your research on companies that you would like to work with and figure out a variety of methods to go out and reach them, whether that's social media or LinkedIn or email. There's different ways to target these people, and you just have to keep up persistence. Yeah.

Joe, what has changed with business development now from before?

A lot has changed. We've always been a business that does drip email campaigns, and that we've continued to do. But we've also been a business that will go knock on doors, literally show up to an office and say, we want to work with you. We've been a business that historically sends out prospecting kits So those two things have gone away. You can't show up at an office anymore with a piece of pizza and say, let me get a slice of your time. You can't send a viewmaster that says, see us working together. So you have to be creative with how you find these leads. But I think the approach is still the same with regards to email. We're not a business that cold calls, but we are a business that when we want to get in a company's door, we'll figure out a way to do so. So I just think now more than ever in our world, if we had one email that was sending out drip campaigns, we have 10 now that are doing that. Ah, good point. So we've really just kind of said, okay, you know, we need to now go get new clients, so let's go with what works, back to our motto, and let's double down and do it it, you know, that much more aggressively. And once we have a lead, you know, the process is still the same. It's put an awesome swag kit in their hands, follow up with a groovy presentation, and wow them with unbelievable customer service. And I think, you know, now more than ever, and why I think businesses are looking to start new relationships is I think people are called out when they don't know what they're doing. And kitting and fulfillment is very complex. There's a lot of moving pieces. There is a new business involved. There's multiple businesses involved. If you have 5 products in a kit, you probably have 5 vendors and then you have a fulfillment house. So if you don't know what you're doing, you're going to get called out and customers don't want to put up with bad service. And so I think customers who are prepared, know what they're doing— or I'm sorry, businesses that are prepared, know what they're doing, are going to capitalize on this evolving landscape, and Whitestone was prepared for that. We've been doing kits for years now. We just do it more than ever. So, you know, in our world, we've looked at growing our fulfillment partner relationships. If we had 2 companies that could do kits for us, we have 10 now that could do kits for us all across the country. So we've really made a big effort to strengthen our supply chain and, you know, figure out the resources we need to go to the table as experts. And I think that's probably why we're succeeding. And that's in large part to being prepared, having offsites, communicating internally, and really figuring out what the pain points are, what the weaknesses are, and working, you know, really tactfully and aggressively to fix those and make them strengths.

It's been a tragic time, but tell me something you're thankful for because of this experience. Krista, let's start with you.

Yeah, you know, I think this time has been just extremely challenging, I think, for everyone, you know, businesses and just everyone alike with, you know, this pandemic happening. It's very isolating for a lot of people. And obviously, we're dealing with a lot of loss and just evolving as a world and, you know, trying to figure out how we're going to stop this. But, you know, I do think it has really allowed me to take a step back and understand what it takes to help push and support a business and how amazing our team is. You know, I think we've all really worked together during this time and really worked to just support the business and try to be creative and try to figure out, you know, where our next sale is coming from, what we're going to do next in order to improve. You know, I think good things never come easily and this has just been such a telling experience for that. You know, our team has really been amazing and we've been able to just think so creatively when there's just so little to start with or go off of. Yeah.

Joe, how about you?

Yeah, I'm just entirely thankful for the team at Whitestone. Nothing has come easy, and we're having to work a lot harder than ever before. I know everyone on the team is working late hours, and I'm just so incredibly thankful for the people that I get to come to work with every day. And it's just a shame that we can't all be together in person, but we, we communicate, we see each other's faces every day. And I think, you know, the team has been together every step of the way, and I'm just incredibly thankful for them, their commitment, their can-do attitude, and their belief. I think this is an incredible industry, and I believe in this industry, and I believe in this team. And I'm just— I'm thankful that I get to come to work every day and work with such amazing people. All right.

We always give our guests the last word.

Joe, final word to folks. Yeah, I would say I had my head in the sand April and May, and I think there's a lot of business owners right now that may still have their head in the sand. But I'd say that, you know, dust yourself off, go again. This world is— the world is not going to come back to what it was pre-pandemic. And I think, you know, the world's going to keep going on, business is going to keep moving. And if you work hard, good things happen. And we've seen that in our business. So I just want to share that I do think that the industry has a bright future ahead of it in 2021 and beyond.

Krista, how about you? Yeah, what I'd add there is, you know, anytime that there is a problem and anytime there is, you know, a troubling patch in any sort of business, that's an opportunity for a solution. You know, a lot of amazing companies were founded just as a result of a solution to a problem. And this is just ultimately a chance to evolve for all promotional products companies and all businesses as a whole to analyze, you know, how their businesses were operating before. I mean, we see a lot of people now, you know, reevaluating where their people are working, how much they're working, how they structure their workday, and what services they're offering. And I really just think that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and we can use this just ultimately as a chance for opportunity as opposed to taking it as a full loss.

Yeah, no better way to end than that. Guys, thank you so much for taking the time to share from your experience with the community.

Well, thanks for having us, Bobby.

Yeah, thank you.

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SKU Cast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing to SKU Cast on iTunes or to our blog at community.comandsku.com. Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening.

Mm-hmm.