Episode 185: We Are All Marketing Agencies Now | PSDA's Matt Bruno

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. Skucast is the official podcast of Common Skew. We are all marketing agencies now. Whether you sell print, promotional products, apparel, doesn't matter. We are all selling experience first, product second. That's the conversation I have today with PSDA's Matt Bruno. Matt serves as PSDA's executive vice president. He works with the board of directors to set the strategic vision, and he leads all business operations for the organization. Matt has close to a decade of association management experience and prior to that spent 15 years in the print industry working on large retail graphic programs from all over the world. What I've discovered about Matt is that he's always thinking ahead, not a few months ahead, not a few years, but beyond. And he has the insight garnered from some of the leading brands in the business. We talk about selling experiences, how the complexity of the business is changing how we sell and how our customers are changing the way they choose their business partners today. And what the future of associations looks like and why it matters to you. One quick note. Today we launched a new virtual event called Product Summit Sustainability. The goal of Product Summit is to elevate how we think about sustainability in the industry, as well as equip distributors with cutting-edge product ideas in the eco space. Join us for an inspirational experience combining real-world learning with on-trend product ideas that are solely focused on sustainability. You can learn more at commonscue.com/productsummit. We hope to see you in June. Again, that's commonscue.com/productsummit. This episode is brought to you by CommonsCue, the work from anywhere platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling you to process more orders and dramatically grow your sales. To learn more or begin your free trial now, visit commonscue.com. Now here's my conversation with our good friend Matt Bruno. Lines have blurred. There used to be clear distinctions between a print company and a promotional company. Now the distinctions really don't exist like they used to. You're seeing far more crossover and less of that disciplinary difference. What, from your vantage point, is that correct? And what has changed about the way things used to be and where we're at now?

I think what's changed really is sort of the philosophy of ownership. I think what's really changed from now comparative to like 10 years ago is the really the desire to only be one or the other. I think that a lot of, especially on the print side, because the print side of the industry has been, it's so, for lack of a better term, historic, that there was just this sense of pride and ownership in the print industry. And again, I don't know that that's gone, but I think the openness of philosophy of being willing to say, you know, these things are a part of our future. I think that that's really what shifted. And I think that, you know, when, when promo really, especially these last, what, like 7 years has really blown up, it, it came out of people, I think, from a lot of the side of the print industry that had that same mentality, which is like, well, we used to own print, now we're going to own promo, right? And again, I think it's really the philosophy that's changed that like, wait, we're all in this together that has caused those intersecting lines to come together a little quicker, I think, than expected.

Yeah. It also, the clients have also pushed for a lot of this almost inadvertently. Like nobody said, hey, we need you now to become this type of person, but clients would find a trusted provider, whether it was a printing person or a promo person, and they would you know, just ask them about those particular branded— to the client, branded merchandise falls under the same category. So I think that pressure and that shift came from clients. At least that's how it did for us. And it's interesting, you and I used to battle with— I know, just managing a team that sold promo who didn't want to sell print, or print salespeople who didn't want to sell promo. That world is gone. I, I, you know, there still exists a little bit of that remnant still exists, but for the most part, Um, the client is driving a lot of this demand. Like, they see brand and materials as, as, as one thing.

Would you agree? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, to your point, I think like really that comes from, uh, the extensive complexity that's, that's occurring in the marketplace. Yeah, specifically in the marketing side of the marketplace, right? Is that like, you know, we're getting more and more opportunities and pathways to market that it's just getting more and more complex. It's hard to understand if you're a marketer. You know, the marketers are really, really good at understanding the way a brand should feel and the way that, you know, brands should go to market. I think where it gets difficult is the exactly when, where, and how, right? Is, you know, the typically standard forms of marketing are not so standard anymore. Right, personalization and like, you know, the simplicity that used to, that used to be there is, is no longer there. So to your point, I think brands are really looking for someone to come in and help them understand that execution side and that, and the, um, and really dispel the complexity of the marketing supply chain.

You had a great phrase, and I, and I think this applies to all of us no matter what we're in, whether we are a printing manufacturer, whether we're a printing broker, whether in promo, whether we're in apparel, we're all marketing agencies now. Can you speak to that a little bit? What do you mean by that?

Yeah, I mean, look, I think that it's, um, there's, there's some truth in the sense that there are marketing agencies, right? And they're— and the agency mindset is always about solving problems, right? That, that's a— that when you go to any type of an agency, you know, a lot of times they're almost like consultants, right? And by no means am I saying that we all need to go into the consulting business, but what I am saying is that that's the philosophy that I think that we should as you know, whether it be branded merchandise or whether it be print, you know, or distributor or print broker, all the categories you name, the conversation with your brands needs to fall on the idea of being a partner and being a problem solver and not being a product pusher, right? And yeah, and I know this is something that, you know, people have heard off and on, you know, over the years, but it's probably more true now than ever that, you know, a marketing agency doesn't come in and say you know, use this product. They come in and say, let us help you identify your brand and then expand it across multiple facets. And I think these days, you know, our— I like to use the term distributor, but, um, you know, to kind of as a catch-all, but the distributor mentality should be, you know, how do I solve a problem, not how do I sell a hat or how do I sell a brochure, right? And that's sort of my— that's sort of where I come from with that, that quote of thinking about it in a marketing agency mindset.

This is putting you on the spot a little bit, but who do you see as exemplars in leading forward on both the print and promo side? Are there typical companies that come to mind or the type of distributor comes to mind?

Oh yeah, you are putting me on the spot for sure with that question.

Let me get you off the hook and I'll start with one and I won't get in trouble for this. How about I name Thumbprint as someone we all love and I think who's got a great handle on solving the customer's problem. Home who then fits their business model towards solving a customer.

Yeah, I think that's, that's great. And I— and, and what gives me pause is because I always think about quickly some of the people that I work with directly that are typically distributors, but I also think of some of the suppliers. And, you know, one supplier that I've had the opportunity to work with real, uh, closely lately is Specter and Company. And, you know, from the supplier perspective, you know, what I never— what drew me to them And ironically, that you bring up Thumbprint, as I was introduced to them through Thumbprint, um, was the fact that, you know, here they are, a company that supplies goods, branded goods, right? And they never talk about the notebooks or the bottles. They talk about, with their customers, about the programs and the experience of their products. Yeah, like, that's huge. So I think that from a supplier side, they've always been good, you know, and I Ironically enough, which I think is really cool, is as we're talking about suppliers, I'm starting to see a lot of our suppliers understand that now. You know, they're understanding that they have to, they have to help their distributors, you know, emote their customers, and, and that brings them back the opportunities that they need. And that's, that's huge, right? I will mention one other distributor because I know you've had them on, on the show, uh, once before, which is Nathan Goldberg in Specialized Office Systems. You know, Nathan and I have become close over the few years when he served on the board of PSCA. And what I think is special about what he's doing is that, and their company and their people are doing, is that they have built an entire business around listening to their customer. You know, I remember he told on your podcast the story, and I had heard it before and I love it, is the fact that when he was young and he was working at his dad's print shop, that his dad came in and said, I just got an order for, I think it was 100 medical tables. And he said, Dad, we don't sell medical tables. And he's like, we do now, right? And like, they basically built this business around, you know, hearing, listening to their customers. And really everything now from, you know, you go back to when his dad was running the business and they were selling forms, to now they're selling packaging and they're selling warehousing and fulfillment and they're selling programmatic, you know, uh, selling programs that have integrated technology and digital marketing into them, right? Like Just, I mean, talk about really good— Thumbprint too has done this, right? Just building an entire business around what your customer wants, not what you think they want, right? And I think that that's, that's amazing.

You have seen, working with so many different printers, promotional companies, suppliers, manufacturers, you have seen the complexity. Is it just me? Has the complexity just grown immensely over the past 3 or 4 years?

Yeah, absolutely. And everything you just mentioned, everything from the complexity of printing, the complexity of execution, the complexity of the technology used to do the printing and the execution, right? Like, I mean, I think that it's, you know, you— I think we always jump to technology being, you know, probably one of the biggest issues that we all face, but the technology is also creating some of the biggest opportunities. And that complexity that we talk about that's where the opportunity lies, right? So you go back to that conversation we just had about, you know, how there seems to be in, in distribution right now, and I think it's because, again, like solving the complexity. And so, um, so anyway, I think it's just really cool. The complexity adds a lot of uniqueness and fun to our industry too.

Yeah, and also a lot of value in the sense of— I was talking with a group of salespeople yesterday And I was saying that the more complex the project, obviously the more valued you are as a problem solver because they've got complex problems that they have as well. I want to go back to an earlier point you made about suppliers. What I, what I am seeing on the manufacturing side is what you said. More folks are stepping up to not just here's our product, but here's our product. Now here's how to position it in a way that solves the customer's problem. That little gap right there is what's been missing so long. And we are starting to see that more, particularly from companies like Spectre.

Yeah, and on the print side, we're seeing it. I mean, you know, we've really seen it ramp up. We've seen it from companies like Diversified Labeling Solutions and Navitor. And I mean, you know, I can go down the list— Wise Business Forms— and like these companies that have like really taken a step back and said, okay, how do we, how do we help our customers be more successful in the marketplace? And that's frankly helping them go to the marketplace. And So what I think is super cool that we've been seeing is just, you know, like these kits that the suppliers are sending to their partners, their distributor partners, to literally just go out and take that kit to their customers. And they're beginning to train their, their partners on how they should be going to market with their products. And again, I think it comes back to what we were, what we were talking about with experience, right? You know, ultimately what we're trying to do with our products, these brand solutions, is create an experience for your customers. And it goes all the way down the supply chain. Like, it's not just, you know, how, you know, the, the brand has to make the consumer feel. It's how the distributor has to make the brand make the customer feel. And then you go back another step, right? And that's how the experience of getting your products to the distributor who gets it to— like, yeah, you know, that, that idea around creating positive experience positive emotions and like really trying to help your people be successful. That's, that's what it's all about.

It's really changing how we sell, right? How are you seeing this with, with PSDA members and other folks that you interact with? How are you seeing it change the way they sell?

Oh, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's made a big difference. You know, again, you know, we talk about earlier about product versus program, right? Or the positioning of your products. I think we've seen that significantly the way that just the salespeople inside the PSCA are talking to one another and talking to their customers. You know, clearly there's, you know, there's parts of the conversation that come back to efficiencies and how we can put all products together. But a lot of it is like, you know, so I guess as an example would be like how to integrate digital printing and personalization and how that can create an experience for your customer, right? So how you can educate a salesperson into providing that experience, like what, what is it about the printing this product or this category of products that you're going to be able to demonstrate personalization and experience through, right? How are you going to do that? And so instead of walking into, again, you know, walking into a brand saying, hey, if you put these 3 products together, you can save money, they're saying, If you start with a, you know, a welcome packet and then you go to this and then you go to that, you're going to create a sense of ownership and experience that is going to replace the need for X, Y, and Z, right? So they're thinking first, experience first, which I think wasn't the case before.

Yeah, absolutely. I think so too. I think this past year has accelerated all of that immensely. Like, it's activated so far. I, I in the intro shared who the PSDA is, but for listeners who aren't familiar with PSDA, would you mind sharing a little bit about who the PSDA is? And what I really want you to share, because I know I've talked to you a few times about this, is the future vision for the PSDA and kind of where things are going.

Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, I appreciate you bringing it up because, uh, we're really passionate about PSDA because it's a 74-year-old organization, which I think you can, you can look at that as, uh, and say, wow, this these guys are old. Or you can look at it and say, uh, we're steadfast, right? Like, survivors. We're survivors. But the reason— the way that we've been able to survive, and the reason why, you know, in the association world, 75, 74 years is a long time, especially trade associations, right? As we know, like, manufacturing comes and goes. And yeah, the way that PSDA has gotten here has been through a series of, you know, as evolving a few different times, right? It was actually started in, you know, back in 1947 as the National Business Forms Association, and it was essentially the, uh, the marriage of forms printing distributors and forms manufacturers, which I know is super exciting. But fast forward 74 years and we evolved from the, uh, you know, from the NBFA to the DMIA which was the Document Management Industries Association, and then into the Print Services and Distribution Association we are today. And really, you know, when I say evolved, I mean, you know, recognizing that distributors do more than just sell product. And, you know, the last iteration, which was, you know, into the PSDA, was about print services and distribution, right? Where we see the future of this industry and this association is really more focused on brand solutions, right? It's sort of how we started our conversation, Bobby, around— Yeah. The intersect of all of this, where it's all going. And frankly, you know, I think anybody listening to this would agree that at the end of the day, it's all about brand solutions. It's all about execution and experience. And, you know, the PSCA is going to evolve into being the association where that can all come together. You know, we hope to bring together the entire brand solution supply chain, you know, from packaging to labels, you know, and right now we're fortunate because in our membership today, we already have a lot of that thought leadership. You know, in print, packaging, labels, and even some promo and apparel. But, um, you know, the way we go to market today is really focused on, you know, just how to be a distributor, which is important. But what we think the future is, is, is to bring— in order to bring all those groups together, it's not only just to be how to be a distributor, it's how to be a distributor that works in packaging, how does that— how to be a distributor that works in promo, and knowing all the avenues correctly so that you can bring them all together Yeah, and we can facilitate this sort of brand solutions community.

So dumb question then, the PSDA in the sense of print, are those lines of distinction gone for you as well? So you have promo distributors, print distributors, promotional product suppliers, print suppliers. Is that world also blurred for you guys? And now anyone in the under the branded merchandise umbrella, if I heard you right, could be a member of PSDA.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that is exactly the case. And in fact, uh, we hope in the years to come to even expand a little further because it's not so much about, you know, we're passionate about lifting the entire industry. Like, that's ultimately our goal. And so in order for that to happen, like, I mean, in order for us to stay true to the mission of lifting the industry, it's about involving the thought leaders and the people that are a part of the wider industry. So not only do we want to expand our membership to include, you know, all the, uh, the avenues that you mentioned, but we're actually also reaching out into digital marketing agencies and advertising.

I love that.

Yeah, paper, and even paper.

Smart.

Yeah. And starting to think about like the whole supply chain, right? Because it's not just, you know, one manufacturer that does it all. It's, it's about a group of thought leaders that can come together in a community. You know, it's like what you guys do so well, frankly, is You guys reach out and you're not here telling everybody how to be better, you know, you know, people that sell hats, right? You're telling them to be better holistic companies. And, and we think that the opportunity is similar in the sense of having a place where all of them can come together in a community but then get the education, resources, and supply chain to help them execute upon their needs.

Yeah, I will say this, um, as we were 50% when I was a distributor, we were 50% print, 50% promo. And we were, we were members of PSDA. And what I found in the PSDA, this was interesting to me because I didn't know it. I had a perception of PSDA print. Like I had this, I had this sort of this very old school perception of PSDA. I went there and what I actually found were people that were struggling with the most complex branded merch problems. Um, and, and so that's where I met folks like Thumbprint. That's where I met folks. And I remember thinking, oh, okay, these guys have the exact same problems that I do trying to figure out that complexity. So I will say, for those that aren't familiar with PSDA, this isn't a pitch for PSDA. It literally was where we found some resonance with people who were solving the exact same problems that we were.

Well, I'll say this, that, and you know, that's been something we recognized, you know, the last few years is that you talk about complexity. And specific to, you know, the print industry and some of the branded merchandise extending out, right? And we recognize that, you know, there is this sometimes this fear of companies that maybe have been, um, you know, historically in the promo branded merchandise arena, and they look at print, they're like, that's just too messy, too complex, I don't want to get into it. Um, so first of all, just to that, I would just say that like, you know, it's not as hard as you think. And a lot of the things that, especially people in branded merchandise are doing are already print. But I would also tell you that that's sort of what we're trying to do at PSCA is that we're knocking down, we're trying really hard to knock down those walls. So we're building programs. In fact, I guess I don't want to pitch PSCA, but ultimately I think it's going to happen either way. But we, uh, we built like a training program called Print Basics all around the idea that If you've never touched print before, like, what would you need to know? And so we built a 4-day training program to say, well, you need to know these things, you know. So like, we hope to do that then and building like a promo basics and label basics and packaging basics.

Yeah.

So that, you know, anyone that's new to these various, you know, uh, opportunities can come in and get understanding. Again, knocking the walls down and then learning how to integrate them all because ultimately that's where we need to go.

Yeah, I will say this too. I don't think this exists with the audience that's listening to this podcast right now, but if there is a remnant of folks who are still struggling with, well, I don't really do print, I can't think of a more erroneous statement than that because on the promo side, you look at the complexity of what we do from a Christmas ornament to a trade show booth. And everything in between. And you realize the complexity of the printing process and all that to sort of segment a part of the business that you don't do when you do labels, when you do presentation folders, all these other things. So I think those— like I said, I don't think that exists with this audience. But if it does, all I can say is that think to that kit that that client calls you for. They're no longer going to want to, to work with 4 different partners on that. They want to execute with one sole partner who's going to, going to be able to deliver on that marketing experience.

Yeah, and I'm sorry to interrupt you there. I, I just want to say that, like, your point that you just— the last point you just made is so, is so key, right? Because, like, I think what we've seen, you know, in what I've seen on the promo side of the business, if you were to separate them, is that what goes on really well there is they get a lot of help from their, their manufacturers and suppliers, right? Like, there's a lot of, like, opportunities to say you know, talk to your supplier and say, here's my problem, solve it. And I think, you know, what, what should be known is that that same type of help not only exists in the print side of the business, but it's also probably just as good, if not better, in the sense that they all recognize that they cannot be successful without their partners. And so they not only give you the tools, but they give you the resources, as we talked about earlier, right? Like how, how they can help you go to market to not only get their products in front of customers, but also, you know, be smart and how to fit them into integrated programs.

Our role as a marketing agency, regardless of how you identify yourself, is to elevate the brand experience and eliminate the friction with our buyers. And that's what I mean by, you know, forcing your buyer to suddenly go source from 6 different people when they can solve this problem through you is, is the best way to eliminate that friction and become a long-term provider for them. Well, let me ask you this. I've been curious about this, Matt. I didn't It just dawned on me that you'd be great to answer this. What do you think the future of the association world looks like? You guys grapple with that all the time. You guys have seen quite a few changes over the past year with shows and a lot of big budget and spend possibly disappearing. What's changed for you guys?

Well, I think it's, you know, I would just say this, that I don't think the association world is going anywhere. Like, you know, that might be a perception, but like, you know, So certainly this last year was difficult, but just like everybody in their business, we iterated, and frankly quite well, in the sense that, you know, fiscally, do we have some challenges? Sure, you know, just like everybody else. But out of that, we gained so much understanding and experience around new products and services that our members needed that we didn't even think they needed or know that they needed, that we now built a whole new repertoire of services in our association to help service the members. And again, you know, you think about something, a word that we've already used a couple times in this discussion, and this audience knows very well, but personalization. Like, I think the future of associations is really going to be around personalization, is getting, you know, members the tools that they need when they need them, how they need them.

Yeah.

And You know, one thing I'll also say is that, you know, even though, uh, we've been able to get through this last year doing a lot of virtual events, there is no replacement for getting in person again. There's just not. I mean, yeah, and I think if I think everybody listening to this right now would agree that there is just no replacement than like sitting and, you know, you and I having this conversation over a cup of coffee or a drink or, you know, just getting to know each other. And so much business and relationships are born out of that opportunity to get together. So I think what it'll train us is that, you know, that need to get together more. You know, we can do that and leave some of the education out of that, like those events, like the events. Yeah, great point. Is going to become more of an opportunity for us to get together and network and share experience, and it's going to be about like having a speakers sit up on stage and tell everybody how to run their business. Yeah, yeah. I think it's going to be, you know, being very tactical about how you use an event to build relationships and to do networking.

Yeah.

And less and less about education. Like, now people are really going to value going to something as they were before. Like, I just get— I go to that event because I go every year, you know. Like, I just— I have to go because I have to see my customers. Well, Right. You don't have to go see your customers. Now you can go spend time with your friends and continue to build those relationships.

Yeah, it sounds like for at least the PSEA, this has been a net positive experience, even though it might have, you know, it might have like the rest of us shook our businesses in terms of bottom line. It's still net positive in the sense that big changes occurred and what's going to come out of this are going to be positive.

Yeah, you know, it's funny that you say that. We just had a board meeting yesterday. We had our monthly board meeting and And some big decisions were made in that board meeting. And really, at the end of it, we all started— there was a moment of silence as we kind of looked around the Zoom call, not the room. I wish I could say room. And everybody just has a smile on their face. And it's just quickly, we all just sort of started laughing at how good we felt. Here we are, probably going through one of the most difficult years we've had in our history. And we're all giddy about the opportunities in the future. And about our industry in the future. And, you know, I, you know, I say this all the time to ad nauseam, but I just think right now is probably one of the best times ever to be in the business we're in.

I agree.

You know, we started this conversation, Bobby, talking about complexity, and we talked about the challenges and the opportunities. And, you know, this last year has demonstrated that we are just so uniquely qualified to solve complex problems around supply chain and specifically like marketing supply chain that if like last year was nothing compared to the opportunities that lay ahead.

Yeah, based on that, you talk to a lot of entrepreneurs, your board is full of folks who run businesses in this, in this space and in businesses that are some of the most complex businesses and problem solvers there is. Based on your experience talking to all these entrepreneurs, how would you advise an entrepreneur looking at the next 3 to 5 years? I know that's a very, very big question, but how would you advise them to shift their focus? Is this on operational efficiencies? Is this the way we sell? Where would you be like doubling down on?

That's a great question. I would say, um, the first thing that comes to mind is operational efficiency, like technology. I think that if, if you're not utilizing technology to make your customers' lives easier right now, like if you look at the way that you're your customers experiencing you right now, that should be your number one priority. I think, you know, e-commerce has blown up over the last year as everything else has had challenges, and now there's going to be an expectation greater than ever before that you're able to compete with, you know, some of the larger— like, you know, there's an Amazon expectation. Like, you need to be able to— I would say that if I was an entrepreneur and I had my own business right now in this segment, I would be trying to figure out exactly how I can make my interactions with my customers, or I should say my customers' interactions with me, as easy as possible. So that would be step number 1. And then step number 2 would be internal efficiencies. So connecting that front end all the way through to the back end, uh, and making sure that, you know, the— that my systems can all integrate with one another and potentially even with my suppliers so that I could Again, that comes back to the first point, which is creating as seamless of a customer experience as possible.

To close our conversation, as we're heading into this year, one of the most impactful things that we ever did as an organization was— and I've told this story before, so those that have heard it will have to be patient— but about a decade ago, maybe a little bit longer than that, I was at a PSDA conference and I was a noob. I didn't know anybody really. And I was there. We were in the print business. We were doing $10 million in revenue in print and promo. And it was about 50-50, but I was there with a lot of problems, a lot of operational problems, a lot of things. And one of my biggest challenges was I had a very promo-heavy sales force that wasn't interested in selling print. And so I met a guy named Greg Gill who, who As we got to talking, he had the opposite problem. He was like, well, I've got a bunch of print salespeople that aren't interested in selling promo. And so we forged this relationship. And one of the things that Kominsky is really big on is just that community moving forward. And the one thing I would encourage folks to do, what he and I did, I flew down to Florida, he flew to Oklahoma City, and we spent time with each other's teams. And I look back on that moment and it was just such a pivotal moment in our, in our futures as we were growing, because it meant so so much to the technology side of what we were doing. It meant so much into what we learned. So as we head into the year, the one thing I would encourage folks to do, and people in our community are really good at this, are just reaching out to other entrepreneurs as you're growing. Um, because one of the interesting things that we both were doing, we were both in an identity crisis at the time. We didn't know it, but we were in an identity crisis. We're trying to figure out who we are. We are in this really strange business complex, but we really did lean on each other for that. I think that's what the PSDA has been really really good.

Yeah, I love that story. I love that story because that story is not only who the PSDA— like, that's sort of who we've been, but it's really what we're double-downing on in the future. Yeah, like that, what that story you just told of creating a community that can continue to perpetuate the, the solving of difficult problems. And the only thing that's changing from our history to our future is the fundamental walls that stand in place between all of the brand solution segments that are out there, all of the areas. So it's not— no longer is it potentially, you know, Bobby and Greg having to connect to solve a print problem and a promo problem. It's getting together to solve bigger problems, to solve a marketing problem, to solve an experience issue. Yeah, right. Because, you know, this is as cheesy as it sounds, like, we really are all in this together. Like, there— this is our industry, this collective problem solving, marketing challenges, branded merchandise. It's— we're all in this together. It's one industry, you know, and we're not competing, we're building. We are building a whole new industry, and that's what makes it exciting. And that's why, like, that's why it's— you know, I go back to my story about the board meeting yesterday, because we were starting to see it at PSC. We're seeing that we have this, this world of opportunity ahead of us.

Yeah, Matt, thanks for your time, man. I really— I always enjoy talking to you guys, and everybody on the whole PSE organization is fantastic to work with. So thank you.

Yeah, it's truly my pleasure, Bobby. Always good to talk to you. Thanks.

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SkuCast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing to SkuCast on iTunes or to our blog at community.comonsku.com. Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening.