Episode 196: The Most Effective Channel for Reaching Buyers | Jay Buselle & Jessica Gibbons-Rauch

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. Skucast is the official podcast of Common Skew.

In a report produced by MarketingProfs and the Content Marketing Institute, B2B marketers found 3 channels to be more effective than any other for reaching buyers. Number 1, social media. Number 2, email. And number 3, their blog. Of those social media platforms, LinkedIn— not Facebook, not Twitter, not Instagram, not TikTok— LinkedIn is the most effective. Among the B2B marketers who use paid social media, LinkedIn is the platform used most often. They also say it's the organic platform that generates the best overall content marketing results and has for their organization over the last 12 months. If the majority of the most successful B2B marketers consider LinkedIn the most successful platform for their business, it's probably time we revisited LinkedIn and its effectiveness for you. To do that, we invited our friends Jay Bissell and Jessica Gibbons Rausch to talk about it. It's been over 30 years since Jay Bissell started printing and selling unofficial replica t-shirts in the late '80s of his favorite skiing and skateboarding companies. In addition to his suspicious side hustle, Jay landed his first industry job while in college as a cut and paste artist. It didn't take long before he was working for a screen printer and soon after his family-owned promotional marketing agency. Jay found a home hanging out with the other creative promo pros and apparel geeks on this island of misfit toys, and he refuses to leave. He currently serves as a chef for Promo Kitchen, the all-volunteer nonprofit group focused on mentorship in the promo industry. And Jay is a highly rated industry presenter and a trainer on topics like branding, marketing, and LinkedIn. Jay is a managing partner of Flexpoint Social Selling. Jessica supports distributors through digital marketing, trend reporting, and process involvement. Whatever they need to be successful, Jessica makes it happen.

Her—

in her words, except accounting, that scares her. After 15 years of being in the distributor trenches, Jessica realized there's so much that goes into the backbone of selling promotional products, and it has little to do with the actual act of selling a product. Research, understanding what the customer wants, how to present it, building brand recognition, tracking KPIs, investing in success-based analytics. Many do not have the resources to do all of these things and struggle to grow. That's where Jessica comes in. Jessica is a managing partner of Flexpoint as well. In the first half of our chat, we talk about the shift that has happened in the market over the past year and the identity crisis much of our marketing faces now, now that we're all seemingly selling the same things. We talk about how we can differentiate your brand, your brand's personality and voice, and then we dig into the details of LinkedIn, why it has become the sleeper platform that is now overwhelmingly more effective, and how we can harness its quiet potential. Hi friends, I'm Bobby LeHew, the Chief Content Officer at Commonsku. Many of you attended our Product Summit, which was focused exclusively on sustainability. We had such a tremendous response and such positive feedback from that experience. We wanted to continue this highly concentrated combination of strategic selling with innovative product ideas. Registration is open for our new Product Summit, Holidays, which is built specifically for gifting experiences of all kinds: employee engagement, client recognition, community engagement, holiday gifting, and more. Our new summit features expert advice from distributor pros in the business, as well as creative products shared by the industry's leading suppliers. Plus, we're kicking off the event with a conversation with Jesse Genet from Lumi on how to build beautiful unboxing moments. Bring your team for a highly concentrated few hours that combines sales strategy with tactics and the latest in product trends. Product Summit Holidays will be held on September 14th from 2:00 to 5:30 PM ET. Be sure you register in advance at commonscue.com/productsummit. This episode is brought to you by CommonsCue, the work-from-anywhere platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling you to process more orders and dramatically grow your sales. To learn more or to begin your free trial now, visit commonscue.com. Now here's my chat with Jessica and Jay.

Let's kick this off on a very positive note. How do the best of the best position their UVP or their differentiation in this business? And I'm wondering what kind of examples you guys have seen in the market. Jay, we'll start with you, then we'll go to Jessica.

Wow, this is, this really kicks it off. You're right. UVP, unique value position, unique value proposition. I'm not sure which version of that we want to go to work. Either are great. The best of the best. Let's start there because, you know, they tell a better story and they have figured out a way to create a clear difference. I really would like to ask this question of everyone, like, how did you develop that perfect statement of value? And I don't know how they do it, but they're in a position where they can explain why buyers should trust them and why, you know, that it's like they're able to avoid the actual clichés and they're not repeating what others are saying. So it still sounds fresh, but they bring this clear, like this clarity. Like, I don't even know if I have perfect examples for you, but I know it when I see it or when I hear it. And I'm like, my ears just go, boom, wait a minute. Yeah, I haven't heard that before. And that really hits my heart. And it makes me also really curious. So I don't know if I answered your question well or not.

No, you did.

Hopefully Jessica can bail me out.

No, I think you did because curiosity is the gateway to suddenly stepping in and wanting to learn more. And I think you had a really good point. Jessica, what about you?

Well, and I think there's two sides of this. So one of the things that I found talking to distributors is that the more casual we can make the conversation, the better their value proposition is. So a lot of people, when they're trying so hard to be so formal, that it comes out a little awkward. When you can kind of get them to relax and be like, all right, why are you here? Then they have these amazing stories and these amazing reasons for being here and ways that they want to go. So the more like relaxed we can get people and be like, this is not super high pressure, just be who you are. And then the other side of that is the willingness to evolve. And we are all evolving. I'm certainly not who I was 20 years ago, 10 years ago. I know that you guys aren't either. The willingness to change that value proposition so that it's changing with who you are and who you're becoming is really important. And I think going back and revisiting it on a regular basis to make sure it's still applicable, that it still feels right, and it is who you really want to be. I think that's so important. So the people that we're seeing who are willing to make those changes, those are the ones that are really killing it.

I told you she'd bail me out.

I thought for sure he was gonna say Jeremy Picker because that's the guy we always feature.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Next, he's on the list, no doubt about it. Yeah, Jay Pick makes the podcast Best insight of 1 minute. Pretty good.

One thing I've noticed in the business is back in the day, and some are still guilty of doing this, we moved our UVP centered around product. And product is what we do.

Product is what we sell.

Product's how we make money. So it's not a disparaging comment. But what I've noticed is that we moved from our UVP around product, centered around product, to our UVP now centered around projects. So last year, we saw this disruption in the marketplace. Of course, more everyone was into kitting. Everyone was doing some kind of store or shop for some client of some kind. So we saw this almost amalgamation of identity in the industry where there used to be clear lines of distinction. Those aren't anymore. And so what I think is the next evolution is moving people from product-centric to project-centric now to this very experiential-centric. And there are brands that are doing it, I think, fairly well, like Advocate, Juice Marketing, 12NYC, Creative Boulevard, Thumbprint. Put all of those folks on a graph and look at what they're doing with their branding and messaging, and you'll get a rough idea of kind of what some of the leaders are doing. But You both said something phenomenal. Jay, you mentioned the word curiosity. And I think that's a big part of the doorway that we step through so that we want to learn more. And Jessica, the thing you mentioned was this is not a set-it-and-forget-it experience because we're changing so rapidly. If last year didn't teach us anything, it should have taught us that our business is evolving rapidly.

Well, and even, Bobbi, when you're talking about that focus on product, I've stopped calling it product. And when we're having these conversations, I'm calling it a widget. Because that's my, my academic background. We're all selling widgets because you want to change that focus so that you can understand that it is— we are pulling from the same things. It's our approach that's different. It's our way of solving these problems. It's our target market. That's what's different. The widgets are the same.

Yeah.

Let's talk about our individual stories that we share. I mean, what examples have you seen? Who best answers who are you and what do you do? Jay?

Yeah. So I was looking at this question earlier and thinking about some of the potential candidates. And, you know, my mind's often taken to people that I esteem highly. Like, I've been so impressed with work that they've done or just the way they carry themselves or the way they've built their business. And sometimes it's an author. Sometimes they're in our industry, not in our industry. So I went back and looked at a few. And on my list of, you know, who really is an example of you know, the phrase, who am I? And here's what I do. I love what Jay Acunzo has done. And I'm following him. I listen to his podcast. I've read his books. I follow his LinkedIn and see what he's doing in LinkedIn all the time. And he has done some really cool things. And when you think about the story side of it, like, I mean, he is a podcast host. He is an author. He is a speaker. So obviously these things are are in his wheelhouse, but you see what people do and it leaves clues. Like he has this line where he says, I see creativity as a form of problem solving and leadership. Yeah. And you're just like, okay, bam, that just hits you. And you're like, that's the kind of person and the kind of clarity I think we need across all industries. But when we, when we get specific with whether it's promo or apparel or I don't, you know, signage or any of our dysfunctional cousins. That's what I think buyers need most is they need that clarity to know what it is that you're actually going to do for me. How are you actually going to solve this problem? What is that real, true, tangible benefit? And sometimes, like you had said earlier, Bobby, we get stuck in productville. You know, we just, we just think that, well, this tumbler is better than that tumbler and that's somehow going to create this giant chasm and everyone's going to come to me and buy from me.

Right.

I just think that's— we miss that mark. And if we go down that road, and so Jay Acunzo is on the list. Jeremy Picker, we teased about, is on the list because he's done such a great job with his profile and the way he reframes how he positions himself, I think is super cool. And for those of you who haven't followed him, every time I brag about him, he's like, hey, what show were you on? Or where were you teaching? Because I had 45 new requests, people who want to connect with me. And then I'm going to brag about my partner, Jessica Gibbons Roush. When you look at her profile on LinkedIn and when you see how she's actually taken the steps to what she just previously said about evolving, that's her, that's her story. And it's so cool to see it kind of come to light. And I played this teeny tiny role in that, but it's so rewarding because when I see the clarity now and I see how she introduces herself, and I'm sorry I'm putting you on the spot, Jess, but it's just been It's been a fun ride and it's been enlightening and it's been inspiring.

But I like to use myself as an explanation. So you have to have someone else help you sometimes. Like Jay was, even though, you know, it was a lot of him listening to me talk, I needed someone to help me tell my story. And there's, there's no shame in that. If you're not sure what it is, talk to somebody who really gets you and try to get there together.

Absolutely. I think that's a really good point about allowing others to help us draft that, because we do have a really hard time looking at ourselves and defining what we do. It's actually a very, very difficult process.

Worst. It's the worst.

Right. Right. I also wonder if I think what we choose to celebrate, maybe I'm just seeing this through a social media lens only. I think what we choose to celebrate has a way of defining us. So when you look at somebody like Picker, who celebrates beautiful design, well-executed campaigns, consumer styles that can be brought into corporate styles. When you look at something he does on a daily basis, he's celebrating things that he sees. And as we see him celebrate, that is defining who he is to us, which is a very engaging part of using social.

100% agree. You can literally do this, Bobby, in LinkedIn, which is another reason I love it so much, is you can go to someone's profile and see all of their activity. And you can go through somebody's profile for a month and everything that they've commented on or shared is visible to the public. And it really encapsulates who they are. And in his case and several others like him, that's exactly what they're doing different and consistently. They're celebrating. It's like almost, I don't know if it's their Zen moment or not, but they're capturing these little capsules of time and saying, this is so cool. And even if they're not, you know, even if they're not like me, they're not great at explaining it in this Bobby Lee way. They're kind of stuck with the J, you know, oh, that's so hot, or oh, that's so rad, or whatever.

But some people can pull that off and they do it really well. And if you can, you know, go with it. If you can pull off the emojis in your profile, go do it.

Yeah, agreed, agreed. But they get that messaging, it starts to formulate the broader context of their story. And so I love what you said and I agree. And I think it's true with all of us and we don't really realize that.

Yeah. Why is it more important now than ever to clarify who we are and what we can do for clients?

Well, it is that same old adage that you buy from people you like. And I think especially with Gen Z and millennials, they're looking for this connection to a brand, a human connection to a brand. And the more that you can humanize who you are, the more people are going to want to connect with you. I always say, like, if someone reaches out to me and says, you know, I went to Northern Illinois University for 2 degrees and I teach there. If they came to me and said, hey, the Huskies are looking good this year for football, I'm going to have a conversation with them. We have this connection because they've made that deeper level. And the more that you can show that in a professional, polite way, you just get that deeper connection right off the bat. I have yet to hear somebody who says, oh, I like to cold call. Please, someone hand me a phone book and I'm just going to go to town. Like, that's not how we do things anymore. And being able to be on platforms like LinkedIn where you can show a little bit more of who you are, what your passions are, what you do outside of work, you're going to have that deeper connection with someone. And right now, when there's times when we cannot meet in person, or whether we're geographically, or, or the pandemic, or anything like that, this is a different way to be able to meet in a different way, um, and be in that digital presence.

Jay, how about you?

Well, first, I was going to comment that, you know, Jessica, my kids don't even know what a phone book is. And they're like, what is this thing they keep leaving at our doorstep, Dad? And second of all, I think, you know, to your point, Bobby, about the question, the clarity, how important it is to clarify that now. It's so important that I would go even to more of a basic building block kind of strategy, like a true formula or a little bit of more of a method or a process and build out a little recipe for yourself so that you're prepared to have that moment in clarity and not ramble, which is what most of us do. It's what, you know, we get stuck and we say, well, I'm the t-shirt guy, or I put logos on anything. And it's out of, I think, a lack of practice and just not being sure and being unsure. And that creates friction. And friction is not what we want when we're trying to tell our story. We're trying to be clear. So I would even go back to like, 4 kind of bullet points that says, think about this, like who hires you? And so have them in mind, like my top 5 customers are, or my, my top 5 dream clients would be, like who hires me? And then be able to say in that frame, this is the biggest value I bring to that audience. Like this is the thing that makes me most special to those types of people. And by the way, I also think who hires me is a better frame than who do I help? Because so often when you see on profiles and people's about section on their website and people's about us or about on their LinkedIn, they often say I help. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with saying I help people like this. I mean, we've listened to the greats like Seth Godin say I do things like this for people like this. I help people like Bobby do things like this. And that's okay as a starting point. But I think we could even be a little more specific to say These are the kind of people that hire me to solve these kinds of problems. And if I can weave in 2 or 3 small pain points into that discussion, into why I'm different, and then immediately drop in 1 or 2 benefits, like the ultimate outcome, the ultimate client experience is, that type of person is going to be able to crush it both in person and on social because they've got a template. They've got a little bit of a recipe.

I love that. Two things that you guys talk about here. Moving from generalities to specifics is a big part of this because when we get lost in generalities, that's when we say, well, I put logos on things and that's where we get lost and we lose our audience. Getting into specifics, I think, and unlocking it with those top clients is key. And also, Jay used a word that I hadn't thought about before, but I think it's ideal. And that word is recipe because we all understand the basics of a recipe and think food recipe, not baking recipe. I think with baking, you have to like get it right. Whereas with food, you've got a creative— you've got creative leeway with the meals you're making. You can go one direction or the other. You can add this, you can add that. And I love the idea of a recipe because that gets me off of something that I feel like I have to memorize and regurgitate. To me, it feels more like a structural backbone, and I have a lot of freedom within a recipe.

Agreed. Yeah, I love it too. I love those words, thinking about that in terms of a method. And like you said, you know, we each are going to have different tastes. And also the point is that, that what I'm sharing, how I'm giving my message and looking for that clarity is going to resonate with others and with some none, none at all. They don't like that recipe. They don't like that taste. So, and that's okay. I need to cross them off the list. Like I don't want to be misaligned and be trying to convince someone that really ultimately we're not a good match. Yeah.

I also think one reason we have to clarify more and more who we are, and this is something that's just happening at the moment that I don't have my arms around yet, but many, many marketers are trying to figure this out, but we all have to prepare for a cookieless world. More and more browsers, more and more are moving away from cookies as a way of tracking. And that means a big shift for marketers. And there are big brands that are struggling with this now. In our world, I think that what that means is defining very, very well who we are and what we do. And getting specific, like you said, about those clients and those projects. Jay, you used the word in a previous conversation with me. You talked about clarity and alignment. What did you mean by alignment?

Well, I think in that discussion, Bobby, we were talking about that there is a bit of an identity crisis right now. And so rather than trying to be all things to all people, if you can create that clarity statement, that true, you know, I'm different in this way, then you're able to avoid a little bit of the crisis. And by alignment, I mean, you know, if you look at yourself as the hub and there's all these spokes coming off of you as a person, and I'm specifically for a purpose saying you as the person, not you as the company, you have likes, you have dislikes, you have taste, you have strengths, you have weaknesses. And so as you communicate that outwardly, people begin to realize who you are. And so, the alignment is everywhere you go, everywhere the light shines, that's your brand. So, if you have things that are misaligned, it's like it sticks out. It doesn't fit. It's not really who you are and others pick up on it. And so, that's what I meant by that alignment. And then, as you think about it in the context of your business, it's the same thing. So, if you are not awesome at company stores, you've never done them. And, you know, your first big client says, well, we really need a store. We really need an e-commerce presence. Well, first of all, it's probably going to freak you out that you're not prepared. And second of all, you can't go in saying, I know more about this than anybody, because that's not authentic. It's not true. And it's eventually going to be found out and you're going to just lose it. So, those little things can be big things and finding that alignment in all of that. So, where do you shine? Where are your strengths?? And then how can we align those in all of our stories in everywhere people would find us? So on our website, in-person networking, on social media, in our descriptions of social media, in the content we share on, you know, the blogs, all of that is where I was going with the word alignment.

Yeah, I gotcha. Jessica, before I move on to the next question, was there anything else you want to add to that?

Well, I would say a lot of the conversations that we're having with distributors is we're talking about who do you want to work with? What is your ideal? Because just because it's what the industry you're in or what you're doing right now, or this is the accounts you inherited that doesn't align with who you want to be, we can shift that. We had a couple people who said, you know, I hate doing bids, and then they're in industries that are historically highly bid industries. Okay, well, how do we shift you so that you're working with the people that you're looking for? How do we change your dialogue so that you're finding those people that you do connect with? You don't have to be everyone to everything, like Jay said. How do we get you to line up with who you want to be?

Yeah. Is a lot of what you're doing with distributors almost like a third eye? Like we see ourselves through our two eyes and what we do, and we're almost very myopic about what we do and we get stuck in our ways and you guys offer this sort of editorial review with their brand and what they're doing.

Yeah, that is, that is a lot of what we're doing. And it's interesting when people can stop and pause. And we're able to kind of just really focus in and take a fresh look at everything. So we don't have, you know, their 15 years of backstory. We're like taking it from this very present moment and saying, this is what you're telling us in person in a short interview. And then this is the trail you've left and they're out of alignment and we want to make it more congruent and then say, let's fix this. Let's tune this. Let's, you know, edit this. And so that the outcome and the creation is a more memorable story, first of all, because that's just critical. I mean, without it, you know, why are we having this podcast? But crafting that story in a way that's also going to give a certain audience some flavor and so that they are curious, so that they do want to know more. And so that you've planted the seeds of trust early for the right audience in a memorable way., and we, we get this opportunity. I got to tell you, Bobby, it's one of the coolest things I've ever done. It's like, he's going to hate that I say this, but I have to, I have to tell you that we teased Mark, Mark Graham, our buddy Mark.

We teased him. That was a fun call.

Because we were like, come on, bro. You're like, we look up to you in all of these ways. And here's a few things that you can do differently that would just be more in line with the real Mark that we know. And, you know, he was so great and so gracious, and he took our— he took our advice. He's so good at that. Yeah, I know. And I was like— I was like humbled and honored and felt awkward, you know. But at the same time, I was like, no, but I think we're on to something. Like, I mean, it made sense, right? So it wasn't like, right, right, we were the two smartest people in the room. We were just like, no, this is— this is the direction that— where you need to go, and you need to have it be said in this way as opposed to what you have now, which is really where most people are, Bobby. They're just stuck in time. They haven't paid attention to it. You know, they look at all of these things and, well, I did that 5 years ago, or I did that 3 years ago. Well, then it doesn't work because it's, it's old, it's out of date. It's probably incomplete. And like Jessica said earlier, things move and we've all evolved.

Yeah.

Sometimes we just have to remind people that they're, they're really interesting people. I think when we have been doing the same thing for so long, you forget that there's really cool parts about you. And that's good to showcase that. You don't have to— I understand humility, but if you're doing something really interesting and cool, people want to know. And just reminding people of that, that it's okay to talk about yourself and be proud of what you do.

Yeah, that is a really great point, Jessica. And one of the analogies that I like to talk about a lot is that business owners, leaders, we often have a hard time viewing ourselves objectively because we are hard at work working on the tapestry that we're building. And we are looking at the ugly side, the backside of the tapestry all the time. We see our pitfalls, we see our challenges, whether it's a, it's a large team, and we see where we might have screwed up in certain areas like stores or other projects. So we sort of see all the problems. And because we're immersed in problems, we aren't able to really see ourselves as clearly as if you flip the tapestry over and saw this beautiful picture. The outcome The experiences we build, the emotions that we create on behalf of customers, that's the magic. And that's, I think, what's where we also get messaging wrong is that we tend to focus on the wrong part of the message, like the wrong end of the stick. Whereas with messaging, it's all about this outward experience that we're creating.

So true. Yeah, you brought that up earlier, Bobby. You were talking about how fun it is for you as the interviewer to have all of these opportunities to help people tell their story. And so, I mean, we feel that same way. I mean, obviously we haven't done as many interviews as you have on the podcast and all of that, but just that it's energizing to help someone really kind of come out of their shell a little bit. And to what Jessica said earlier, they are interesting and they do things differently. Like, yeah, I wish more people had that chance to see that and feel that and experience it.

Yeah, I agree. Let's talk about LinkedIn specifically. What's happening on LinkedIn that we should sit up and take note of, Jay?

Well, yeah, let's start with it's the biggest. It's still the biggest. And really, in my estimation, my humble opinion, the only true B2B networking platform. So it's obviously a fit for all of us if we're a business owner, if we're in sales, if we're in marketing, really any, any position, truth be told. So a couple of things to take away. As of April 2021, LinkedIn has a user base of about 180 million users in the US. So you say, okay, 180 million users in the US, who cares how many are active and what are they doing? And half of them are spamming me anyway. So I don't know that I care about that stat. Well, let's break it down a little bit. So according to what I can figure out, about 40% of that 180 million are monthly active users. So let's, let's round down and just for easy numbers, let's say that's about 70 million are on LinkedIn in the US on a monthly basis. Well, breaking it down even further, 20% are on several times a week. So that's like 36 million people in the US using LinkedIn on a very active basis. And by the way, 12% say they're daily users. So that's 20 million folks on this platform in the US every day. So to anyone who says, you know, yeah, but that's not a lot of people. Okay. I don't know what your measuring that by, but let's get a little more specific. So this is interesting. I think millennials make up 60% of the total user base. So if you boil that all down, Bobby, there's 12 million millennials using LinkedIn every day, and they're not all just looking for a job, by the way. They're, they're decision makers. They have buying authority. And I think, you know, to lift a— again, you know, reading Jay Acunzo and following him on Twitter and some of the things he says, You know, people might push back on that 12 million millennials on LinkedIn every day. Only 12 million. Only, right? The idea of only. Well, he recently reminded us in a tweet, and I think he was making the point that only 100 people opened my email or only 100 people listened to my podcast. So, yeah, stop and think how many people— when was the last time you were in a room with 100 people? Do you know what that looks like in a room with 100 people? That's a lot of folks. And it's like this amazing opportunity. And I think that we need to stop worrying about that's not enough people. And it's like, you know, bro, I don't know how to tell you this, but you couldn't handle 100 new clients this month. You couldn't handle it. Yeah. Would overwhelm your systems. You would be broken trying to manage that. So let's not worry about there's not enough people. Let's celebrate how many there are and just go get them. And so I was thinking about that perspective first. And I hope that people can understand that people always say, why are you such a LinkedIn advocate? It's like, because it's so easy to find and connect your actual who you want to work with. You could find in a very hyper-local way, your exact target audience that you actually want to work with. That's in alignment with your skill set, with your energy, with your creativity, etc. So yeah, anyway, those are the first things I would share with, you know, you and anyone that's listening is thinking through that.

Yeah. Never been about how many. It's always been about what kind.

Jessica, how about you? Well, and like Jay said, it is the professional place to be. So yes, you can be on other platforms, but you're also filtering through, you know, videos of people's dogs and pictures of their kids and things like that, where in LinkedIn, the idea is to be there because you want to make a professional connection. And I know when I was trying to reach out to people in the industry when I was starting going out on my own, I used LinkedIn because I didn't feel comfortable reaching out to them in other places. I wanted— like Charity Gibson is a great example. I messaged her directly through, through LinkedIn and said, hey, I'd like to learn more about your story. And I felt like that was the appropriate way to reach out to her because I wanted to know her on a professional level. I mean, obviously now we're Facebook friends and follow each other on Instagram and everything too. But that's the place where if you want to have that professional connection, That's where it is. And if you're not there and someone is looking to make a professional connection and they need what you, you have, you're missing that opportunity. And who knows if you're in even in the same geographical area, you might never run into each other, but you could find them here.

How do we best engage on LinkedIn? That's really, I think, what this is boiling down to. I think we get, especially in this volatile and hot job market, that's a wonderful recruitment tool. It's a wonderful place to be. It's an excellent place to be. But how do we really best engage on LinkedIn? Jay, let's start with you.

Well, first thing I do want to, I want to circle back just a second and say one thing that has changed, if it's okay, is that people get confused with hashtags. So not to get too into the weeds on this, but hashtags work on LinkedIn. They work very well. But unlike other platforms, there's kind of a sweet spot and it's moved around a little bit. And so I would just tell you to You know, 3 to 5 hashtags is about it, and anything over 10 you're going to get penalized for, so don't do it.

So, oh, great point.

It just, it doesn't work in their system. It doesn't do well, and all it is is distracting. So I would stick to that 3 to 4, under 5. Don't distract your audience because what you're posting might contain text that is going to be irrelevant. And so you also have to try to, you know, avoid things that are conflict, and that's one of them. So, you know, just because we did something in Instagram doesn't work in LinkedIn.

That's a great point.

What else has changed? Video is still rewarded and native video is best. So like all of the platforms, they're jealous. They don't want you to leave. So if you have a link in your post to a YouTube video, you'll actually be penalized a little bit. It will be seen less. LinkedIn isn't going to reward you to say, hey, I've got the best project I've ever done. It's the most creative work I've ever done. I'm so proud. Of it. And here's the short video of it on YouTube and a link over. Guess what? There is a place for that. And I compliment and credit LinkedIn for having created this in the last about 2 years now is they added a features section on your profile. You basically think of it like your homepage, but on your profile page, there's a feature section. That's the place where it's okay to have a link off of the platform.. But when you put it in your post, you're just not going to get as many views. It will not be served as much. The LinkedIn knows, the algorithm knows, hey, we don't really want people to go to YouTube because we know what happens when people go to YouTube. They don't come back. Yeah. You know, they're lost.

So let's do talk about engagement because engagement on LinkedIn has to be one of the most effective ways to drive traffic. But Jay, how do we best engage? And maybe we should back up a second and just define that word because we use a lot of words, especially in marketing speak, and engagement is one of them. What do we mean by engagement?

And then how do we best engage? Well, Jessica and I would tell you that we're going to even take a half step back before we get to engagement. And we're going to talk about optimization. We're going to talk about getting your house in order. And a lot of people have heard that expression. But if you were getting ready to have a party, Bobby, you'd want to make sure that your curb appeal looked right. The front yard was picked up and cleaned and recently mowed. Maybe your lawn's mowed if you have a lawn, or, you know what I mean? Just like things are in order. Like, your guests are going to come over, and you don't want your home to look like a wreck like mine currently. You want to have dishes put away and you vacuumed, and, you know, there's not 2 loads of laundry sitting on your couch. So those are all part of the what to do before engagement is just to get everything tuned up. Get that profile tuned up. And we spend a lot of work with folks doing that. But moving forward into engagement, we definitely would encourage people to create some keywords that they are most— like, if I said to Bobby, Bobby, you're a subject matter in things, what are the top 3 things that others would say? Don't— let's, let's take you out of the equation. What would others say that Bobby LeHew is a subject matter expert on? One, 2, 3 points. And we try to say it that way so that— because a lot of us have this thing where we think, well, I'm really good at this. I'm a really good artist. And it turns out I can't draw for crap. So, I think I'm good at this, but I'm really not that good. So, if we could take ourselves out of that equation for a minute and say, what would others say? What would your best friend say? What would your best business partner say? What would your family say? And you get a few perspectives like that because we want people to be able to engage, you know, like in a click. And engagement is both what we share and then what we also participate in. So on LinkedIn, you can share a post in the feed. You can talk about the things that are like what we discussed earlier. I'm passionate about these things. I love design. I love fashion. I love apparel. I could speak on these topics forever, right? So yeah, those— let's, let's identify those and highlight them And then we can create a little bit of a journey so that the pieces and the parts that we're sharing— again, I'm going to use this word— are in alignment with those strengths, with those 2 or 3 or 4 subject matter expert topics. And then also, as you engage with others, which is, I think, the missing piece that most people forget— they like fire and forget, Bobby. They come up with some pretty cool posts. They put them up there. And then they're like, yeah, nothing happened. LinkedIn doesn't work. Well, yeah, that's like, that's like 5% of it. The other 95% of it is you're not engaging with anybody else. You have to engage with others. You have to seek some out, you know, your, your colleagues, your peers, your industry. Then I would say your customers, like what they're on LinkedIn. How can you help be engaging on, on their stories or be a part Play a small role in their stories and then create, you know, a lot of people have called it a Dream 10, Dream 50, Dream 100 list. But if you had these accounts that you'd really like to go after in these industries that you'd really like to serve, then engage in those places.

Make a comment.

Oh, that was really smart. Oh, I loved how you developed that, you know, fill in the blank, you know. Oh, this means so much to me. I'm so glad somebody else feels the same way I do. And as you engage with those folks, books, guess what? They see it. They know who Bobby LeHew is, who Jay Bussell is, who Jessica Gibbons Rausch is, because they're part of the story now. So anyway, that's kind of on a broad base. And I'm hoping again that Jessica can kind of fill in some of the potholes that I left.

Well, I'm actually going to steal—

I like the 5% to 95% ratio, by the way.

Go ahead, Jessica. I'm going to steal Jay's ditch the pitch too. That's one of the biggest things. Make sure that you're adding value before you're trying to sell somebody on something. We get spammed every day. We all do. We see the flyers up there, and that's the, that's the noise that's not really going to get to the person you want to get to. So kind of flipping what your approach and changing it to, what can I give you that would be interesting to you? And then we can talk about what I do. Like, here's, for example, if you have somebody who's in an industry that you're interested in, hey, I saw this article on how your industry is doing. I thought you might like it. These here's some things I thought about it, here you go. Like, there's, there's no part of that that I'm saying, and you can buy from me, that— because that's that spammy feel that a lot of people get in LinkedIn, and that's what turns people off of LinkedIn. It's because they don't want to be like that. They think that's where what's all happening there, and it's not. If it's being used correctly, then that's where you really can get those connections going. Because— and sometimes it's just a shock value, like, oh my gosh, you're not trying to sell me anything, you're just trying to be nice.

That's so cool. Yeah, I'll be nice with you. And by the way, I don't mean to interrupt, but Jessica, you taught me that ditch the pitch. Don't, you know, don't be spammy and stop doing things that, you know, people hate is I think how you said it. And I took it as ditch the pitch. So stop doing the things that, you know, you don't like. And so don't be that person.

Don't be that guy. Yeah. Jay's really good at making phrases sound cool. Like, here's the information. He's like, he's got 3 words and they all start with the same letter.

I'm like, oh, that's cooler.

Yes, it's poetic. I, Jessica, one of the things that I love that you just shared there is a tip around sharing. You don't have to become a creative genius to do that. And we all know what it's like to get that article from a friend via email, through Twitter DM, Instagram, whatever it might be. I just had a friend send me this beautiful New York Times story about Joni Mitchell's Blue album through Instagram this morning, and he was commenting on the aesthetic, how look at what they he did to the content. And he shared with me in a very, like, in a very, this is my craft kind of way. And it was just so inspiring to me. And what we tend to forget, we think we have to show, we show up as the expert. Sometimes we just have to show up and share something that celebrates or honors something that someone else is interested in.

Share value, give value first, show empathy, give value, and then you can showcase creativity together. Like, find that common denominator. That you both celebrate. So in your friend's case, he knew that you were going to love this. He was giving the value without any request in return. And together you're going to showcase the creativity of that piece. And man, I mean, that's, that's part of our— I got to say, that's part of our FlexPoint marketing manifesto.

Bobby, I—

speaking— there we go. Speaking of fun lingo, marketing, marketing manifesto is muy macho. And You know, but it helps break it down. It helps keep us succinct and on track and engaged and at the same time aligned. So Jessica started off with ditch the pitch. But guess what, Bobby? Everybody starts at zero. So don't be afraid. Like, we all started at zero. So don't worry about that part. Just accept that there aren't going to be shortcuts and there's work involved and that you earn the invitation. Once you realize that, Then I can't tell you how many times I've blown people away. I was literally like goosebumpy, felt awkward, didn't know if I was going to burst out in laughter or tears when I saw Melissa Newman giving an amazing workshop at the ASI Chicago show on social media. And she used me as the example in her deck. And I was like, what? I didn't know. I had no idea. I had no way. And the reason she did, and I asked her, Because when we first met, I sent her something. I sent her through the DM, and I do this all the time. It's a standard kind of thing I do is when I recently connect with somebody, I'll send them something that says, hey, by the way, I was inspired by Mark Schaefer, who wrote a book called Marketing Rebellion, and he has a really cool podcast and he has a really cool newsletter called Growth. And if you're like me, you're always searching for killer content. Well, I love this is the the best blog I've ever read in 5 minutes or less on content. Here it is. Hope you enjoy it. If you don't know Mark, you're going to be a fan. And that's it.

Yeah, yeah, love it, love it. I had a senior VP one time, a prospect came in for a company store when I was at Robin, and the marketing coordinator was asking questions and vetting those of us they thought that they were interested in as a distributor. And this prospect, the marketing coordinator was asking all the wrong questions. So I found out who the VP was for this company. I got on LinkedIn and I sent him a message and said, hey, I just wanted you to know your marketing coordinator is asking the wrong questions. Whether you do business with us or not is immaterial. You're not going to find the right partner. Here's a list of questions that they might want— you might want to consider changing. And that was it. Just let it go. And we had an interesting engagement from then on, and it was all about sort of helping this customer and prospect and That moved us a little closer in the conversation. And the word authentic is overused. But it was a very genuine, you know, outreach on my end. It was a lesson for me because I thought, huh, there's something there I should probably do more of.

I think we all should. We all, we really all should have that consistent support, you know, creating those types of, and it doesn't have to be, it's easy when you can pull it from a Mark Schaefer or a Guy Kawasaki, Gary Vee, you know, by the way, what a great title. Who wouldn't want to be the chief evangelist of Canva? I mean, right? I want to be an evangelist of something. It's like a non-title title that says I'm a badass. But anyway, yeah, but whoever you really resonate with, if it's Gary Vee, just be careful because of the language, but somebody that you really feel connected to as a, what would we say, like a leader, an industry leader or a thought leader. Then share that because others that also like Gary Vee or Guy Kawasaki or Bobby Lee Hu or Mark Schaefer, guess what? They're going to instantly connect and the relationship starts from there. And now you've got a foundation of values you're building on. It's like you're building on trust now rather than on the flashy commodity of the cool Tumblr of the week.

Yeah, we've got a few minutes left and something I want to ask that a lot of folks are probably asking themselves now, whether you are running a business as a solopreneur or whether you have a small team, there are two questions around bandwidth and rhythm. Like, what rhythm should we adjust to when it comes to social and making room for our business on LinkedIn? I mean, we're, we're all busy and I think this is one of the objections. I think it used to come up more than it does now, but is there a certain rhythm that you both get into or that you encourage your distributor customers to get into when it comes to LinkedIn and social in general? Like, how do we weave this into the crazy chaotic world that we work in?

So a lot of it is based on what you can realistically do. I think a lot of times people are going to jump in like, oh, I'm gonna post every day and I'm gonna do all this stuff, and that is not manageable. And then when they can't keep it up, they tend to drop off, like, all right, I couldn't do it, I'm not gonna do it anymore. If all you can do is have one post a week, that's okay, you know. Make sure it's a great one, make sure you're doing it. Don't be afraid of things like scheduling software. It is a little bit of, you know, do what I say, not what as I do, because I've fallen off my own posting lately in lieu of professional activity.

Sure.

But if you can carve out that time, say I'm going to carve out this hour and I'm going to schedule out as much as I can for the next month, then you don't have to worry about it. That doesn't mean you don't still need to have those spontaneous interactions. One of my favorite things is if someone is like that promo in the wild, like ASI has been and pushing. If you're wearing a great jacket, you snap a selfie and say, hey, this is this great jacket that I have and this is why I like it. And you have that kind of in-the-moment feel to it. You still have to sprinkle that in as well, but most of it you could schedule out in advance and then not have to worry as much about it. The other thing is making sure that you are engaging on other people's posts. Social is a telephone, not a TV. Like Jay said, the post, you post it and forget about it. That doesn't work. If someone comments on your stuff, you say thank you, you like their comment, you go in, maybe, you know, pick a time, like let's say Fridays when you're drinking your coffee, you're scrolling anyway, jump in LinkedIn and start talking to people. Oh, this was interesting. Oh, thanks for posting this. I like that. Because if you're not having that carved out time to interact, then you're missing the whole half of social and the whole point of building that up. But there's— don't do too much. Just figure out what you can handle and proceed with that. And that's going to be fine. And if you can do more down the road, do more. But don't put so much pressure to say that it's got to be every day, a couple of times a day, all of this information.

If it's too much, it's too much. Yeah. Jay, how about you? Well, I love the word that you used to ask us the question, which is a certain rhythm. And that's the right way to think about it, is it is a rhythm. And I would encourage specifically for LinkedIn, I would encourage you to be 2 main posts a week and 1 main article a month. And an article is a long form. It's kind of going deep. It's finding that topic that you're most curious about and kind of expanding on it. And, you know, 3, 4, 5 paragraphs with subheaders, with a title. It's like you're writing your own little newsletter or your own blog inside of LinkedIn. And by the way, one of the main algorithm changes to that is that Google indexes that. Google does not index what's in your feed, those posts that you're just randomly saying, hey, buy these mugs, they're white, they're C-handle, and they're on sale. That's, by the way, an epic fail. So please don't, please don't do that. Yeah, stop with what not to do. Ditch the pitch, no sales flyers. So if you take anything out of this conversation, start from that point. But the rhythm is by being there twice a week with— by adding value twice a week, you're telling your audience and future audience that you're consistent and that you're a thought leader on these topics, whatever that is. And everybody's got a unique perspective. So it could be anything, literally. And, and I think the, the point I've been dying to make this whole time, Bob, And you know this because I've been trying, how am I going to fit this in? Where am I going to work this in? But the reality is this. If you think about perspectives and you think about, you know, curation, we are curators and we can curate what we think is cool and then share that with other people as long as we add an insight on top. Like, don't just pass on the info. That's not enough. That's weak sauce, right? We're all about the hot sauce, brother. We need the inspiration and the insight to be on top. So, if I read something from Ann Handley and I'm impressed and I'm motivated and I'm inspired, I need to share with my audience why. Where did it hit me? Why does it make my heart hum and my soul sing? And speaking of Ann Handley, there's a quote I'd love to share with you. I don't know if you're familiar with this quote, but she talks about that different perspectives. And she said something really, really cool. She said, consider the Pawn Stars. You know that popular show on the History Channel, Pawn Stars? Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but there's this family in Vegas and people come into this pawn shop and it's become wildly popular. Well, compare that to the Antiques Roadshow, which also is about antiques and valuation, and it airs on PBS, right? So you have two different shows, two different channels. The common connection to me is they're basically shows about curation.. And so they have totally different audiences, but they're both great at telling a story about history, like where this artifact came from or where this hutch was built or who the craftsmen were that, you know, built this thing. And so the takeaway is there are fans of both, and both shows work, and both shows have audiences. Now it's kind of funny to think that some of the fans from the one group probably think the other show's terrible and a waste of of time. But looking at it from kind of the outside in, they're really similar. So to me, when you think about that rhythm, you think about the audience and what you're going to share, there are going to be people that fall in love with you and really are curious about you because of the content that you're sharing. Love that.

That's a great way to end. Thank you both for hanging out with us today. I learned a lot about this. You have obviously invested a lot of energy in this, and thank you Thank you for working so hard to work with distributors and suppliers to make our industry richer.

Oh, my pleasure.

Thank you, Bobby.

Thank you so much.

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SkuCast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing to SkuCast on iTunes or to our blog at community.commsku.com.

Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening. Mm-hmm.