Episode 218: How to Be a Branding Badass with Joelly Goodson

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That's marketing, right? So I'm going to break it down, but marketing is getting people to know you, notice that you're even out there, right? They can see you, but then branding is now they've seen you. What's it going to take to get them to fall in love with you so they're going to be loyal to you and choose you first? That's good branding, and that's what people don't get.

JoLee Goodson, also known as the Branding Badass, is an award-winning branding expert who's passionate about helping her clients create brand awareness to increase profit. She's a senior account manager at Genuine Mark, one of North America's leading promotional products distributors. She's also the creator and host of Branding Matters, a podcast dedicated to helping small business owners and entrepreneurs learn about all things branding. Named one of the 10 best branding podcasts in Canada by Feedspot, Branding Matters is also ranked number 6 on GoodPods' 100 top indie marketing pods. And most recently, it was the only podcast to be listed on Dale Denham's list of the Online 18 for 2022, Promo's most influential social media voices. In her spare time, JoLee volunteers for Gems for Gems, a charity dedicated to helping victims of domestic abuse empower themselves. Everyone has a story, and every story finds its audience. Part of JoLee's story is also every successful salesperson's story. A story of growing and unprecedented success, followed by an unexpected, shocking drop in revenue and a climb back. This is Jolie's story about how she faced a sudden crisis in every area of her life and how this experience changed her outlook and shapes her path forward today. We talk about the choice to use fear as a motivator instead of a debilitator, how sharing your expertise has a way of validating and affirming your intrinsic value, the distinctions between marketing, branding, and sales, and the crucial importance today of linking branding and sales, and how even the word sales is becoming outdated. And finally, as she builds her business back, the key ways she chooses to build differently. Hi friends, I'm Bobby Lee Hugomski, Chief Content Officer. We have a very special webinar experience coming up. It's a conversation with David Luba, co-founder of Tentree, on how to build a high-impact brand. On Wednesday, April 20th, from 12 to 1 PM ET. Now, in 2011, David Luba, Derek Emsley, and Kailyn Emsley were inspired to start a clothing brand that gave back to the earth and formed the company Tin Tree with a simple mission: for every garment sold, they would plant 10 trees. Their revenue and their mission skyrocketed to over $65 million in sales, and by 2020, they surpassed 50 million trees planted. In 2021, PCNA's Trimark partnered with TenTree to make TenTree apparel available to the industry. And in our upcoming interview with co-founder David Luba, we will talk about the critical thresholds they crossed while building a high-impact brand and how to build both mission and profit into a unifying vision. Join us as we celebrate Earth Day in the month of April with our special guests, David, and our friends at PCNA. Our interview will be followed by a 20-minute networking session to help put into practice what we've learned so we can strive to make every day Earth Day in 2022. You can register at commonscue.com/pcnawebinar. Once more, that's commonscue.com/pcnawebinar. Today's episode is brought to you by CommonsCue, the work-from-anywhere platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling you to process more orders and dramatically grow your sales. To learn more or to begin your free trial now, visit commonscue.com. Now here's my chat with the branding badass herself, Jolie Goodson.

Let's go back to a pivotal moment in 2014. Tell us what that year was like for you in sales.

2014. It seems like yesterday in one sense, and it seems like eternity ago. You know what I mean? 2014 was a banner year for me as far as business goes. Yeah, I should be specific. As far as business goes, it was a banner year for me. It was probably my best year ever. As far as sales go, I was doing great, and life was really good financially. On a personal level, as someone who's been through divorce, it doesn't just happen overnight. So obviously there's a lead-up to it. So I think that was a year of probably a lot of contemplation for me as far as where I wanted to go in my life, and that was a big part of it. So emotionally it was a little bit challenging, but work-wise was— it was amazing. I was top of my game, and things were great.

The reason I'm asking, of course, is because in 2015, what happened?

Yeah, 2015, everything changed, right? So where do I begin? On a personal level, on a personal note, my husband and I split. So we had been together 16 years, married for 13, and decided that, you know, 50— 50 was looming for me at that point, just to give you an idea how old I am. And I remember thinking, I'm gonna be 50 soon, and I didn't want to be in the situation I was at. So, that ended. And then, at the exact same time in 2015, the Alberta economy took a huge nosedive. Oil prices plummeted and having clients in that industry and especially my biggest clients, you know, so did my income. So, my personal life plummeted and my professional life plummeted. And I became a single mom with two young kids, two young boys and zero financial support. And my income was pretty much non-existent. So, it was— I went from probably one of the best years for me career-wise to definitely the start, if not one of the worst years, like jumping off a cliff. Yeah.

In a very short time period. Had you ever been through such a precipitous drop in sales before that quickly?

No. My journey with my career, I mean, my past career, I used to work in advertising. It's always been a steady climb. I mean, there's been little dips. Obviously, because I, you know, when I was in my 30s, I switched careers. I was a copywriter. I did that for several years and then decided that wasn't for me. And so, you know, there's obviously a little dip, but it's been a steady climb up. And then even when I got into the promo world, my first foray into it was back in, I want to say, 1998, if you can believe it. And it's been a steady climb. And with little dips here and there, but pretty steady. But this was like nothing I ever experienced before.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd ask you, had you ever been through such a precipitous drop before? You answered that. But after the initial shock, which probably could have taken months, I mean, how did you first start to recover your mindset to begin a fresh path?

I'm still doing that today. What are you talking about? It, it, it was, yeah, I'm not even kidding. It's, it's been a journey. You know, you go through a whole bunch of different things. I think you're in denial. I was in denial for a long time, right? Because it was just too much to deal with. So I mean, I'm trying to— here I am trying to deal with my split with my ex emotionally, you know, and I had two young kids at the time. I think my sons were 8 and 11. So I was just trying to deal with that and then trying to deal with work. And so I realistically put work on the back burner, to be honest, you know, because I had to focus on this. And so, usually when something happens with work, you, like you said, you change your mindset and you do whatever you can to get back. Well, I didn't do that. I wasn't capable of doing that emotionally. I just couldn't, you know, full disclosure. Emotionally, I wasn't able to do that. So, I was just focusing on my boys and going through what we were going through. And going through selling of the house and lots of stuff. Anyone who's gone through divorce knows how challenging and hard it is. And again, like I said, on top of that, you know, I was the breadwinner in the relationship, so I was getting no money. So, even though pre-divorce I was making great money and able to do that, it happened simultaneously as I pretty much lost my income, right? So, the income's not coming in and I'm still expected to pay it out. Anyway, so, Yeah, I couldn't focus for a long time. And then, I thought I need to do something to compensate for my income. And so, I actually started a side business. I talked to my boss at the time and said, "Hey, I'm looking at doing this on the side. It's all online. And how do you feel?" And they were very supportive, I have to tell you. Through everything I've been through, they've been amazing. And so, they were supportive of that. And I did that. And Yeah, it took me quite a few years. And then I would say, honestly, I mean, so that all happened 2015, a good 3 years, 4 years. And then I realized like, okay, well, that side business is great, but it's definitely not going to replace my income by all means, what I used to be making.

Yeah.

So then I had to sort of get that mindset of, okay, I really need to start getting— can I swear on this podcast? So I was gonna say, I really need to get my shit together, like enough, you know, I was in this work I was— all my savings were used up. Now, I'm, you know, the denial is starting to wear off because the savings are all gone. And now, I'm digging into debt and my debt is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And, you know, there's no one to help me but me, basically, right? I'm depending on myself financially and taking care of two boys and an ex. So, I thought, okay. So then, I started to focus on back to work. I'm like, okay, now I need to get to it. And this was probably 2019. So, right. And then what happens? So just as I sort of say, okay, that's it, you know, I'm giving this 200%, I'm going to go back and I'm going to get back where I was to 2014, and 100% of my focus is going to be on work and blah, blah, blah. And COVID happened, right?

You know, we're all such a work in progress, and that what you had been through was so— and has been so difficult. You're right, many people have been through it, but no one's struggle looks exactly the same. And everyone's struggle is real and hard. Would you say that, I mean, normally when we would see that a calamity like COVID hits on top of the challenges that you already have, had to be a really compounding issue. How did you begin to discover that strength in yourself?

Well, I said this before, but fear is a really good motivator.

Yeah.

And I just thought I had no choice. Like, I really had no choice.

Right.

And so when COVID hit, I mean, yeah, I mean, really, compared to a lot of people, I feel I was affected, but there's way worse off than me. Right. And I'm one of those people, you know, I've always been like this too. When things first sucked back in 2015, you know, I blame myself, right? I mean, yes, I lost a big client, and yes, it was because of oil prices, but I didn't blame that. I blame, what am I, you know, what am I doing wrong, you know? And, and I suck. Like, I had a lot of negative self-talk. Full disclosure, my, my self-esteem took a huge nosedive with everything else that was going on. So I was like, I suck, you know, I've been doing this for so many years, why am I, you know, why is this happening, and what am I doing wrong? I mean, I wasn't saying, 'Why is this happening?' playing the victim. I was saying like, I was just like, 'I suck at this. Like, I can't believe I've been doing this for so long and look at me, I'm such a loser,' right? All that self-negative self-talk. So, I was like, so when COVID hit and all it all happened, it all, you know, it's funny how life is. It all sort of serendipitous, I guess. I just happened to be doing a presentation. It was an online presentation to this women's group and it was supposed to be in person. And the funny thing is I almost cancelled because it was supposed to be in person and I love doing presentations in person. I love interacting with the audience. You know, I feed off of that energy. I like to have fun. So then, when COVID hit and it was September, they wanted to do it online. And this was at the beginning before we were doing presentations online, you know. So, I was like, I think I don't want to do it. Like, how am I going to do a presentation online without an audience? So, I was going to cancel but I remember talking to my boyfriend about it. He's like, "Well, you can't cancel. You made a commitment and everything." I thought, "Yeah, okay." And so, I reached out to them. They said, "Are you still going to do it?" And I said, "Yes, but I'm not really keen on it." But I did it out of my commitment. I didn't want to back out. So, I ended up doing this presentation to this women's group and it was about branding because with my advertising background and what I'm doing now, it was really about all things branding. So, I did this presentation. I think the title was, you know, How to Be a Branding Badass or something like that. And then after the presentation, I got some great feedback. And then I had some of them, a couple of them reach out to me after and ask me, you know, if I did consulting. And I was like, no, I'm too busy. I'm a single mom. I got a full-time job. I got a side gig. You know, I have no free time.

Right.

But I said, you know, why do you ask? And they said, well, you know, you said a lot of things in your presentation that were really helpful. And these were two women, didn't even know each other, or maybe they knew each other, but separate, came to me separately. And the story was the same, that they were working for a corporate company, got forced to be laid off because of COVID and were starting their own business. And so, that gave me a little bit of self-esteem back, right? I'm like, oh, they liked what I had to say and they value what I had to say. And you know, so I kind of thought, oh, okay, maybe I'm not as big of a loser as I think I am, you know? And And then I thought, could I do consulting? Because I'm always looking for opportunities. And— but I just knew I couldn't, and— or I didn't really want to. And yeah, and so my self-esteem built that way. And then, you know, kind of took me on this different path that I never expected to go on.

When did you turn to podcasting, and how does that factor into everything that you just said about the presentation?

Yeah, I mean, that was the next step, really, because just to follow on that story, you know, I, I Literally, I went home and I told my boyfriend about that experience. And he jokingly, because he listens to the podcast all the time. He listens to like soccer podcasts and everything. And he goes, oh, you should start a podcast. Haha, jokingly. And I'm like, first I'm like, yeah, right, as if. I knew nothing about it. And then I was like, hmm, maybe I should. Because I thought, okay, well, these are two women in, you know, Alberta that are struggling. And COVID is a global pandemic. And forest entrepreneurship is a global, you know, situation, then there's probably people all over the world that are going through the same thing. And simultaneously, I also noticed that on social media, more people were on social media, right? Don't forget, we're all in lockdown now. So, I'm seeing more and more people on social media and more and more posting. And I'd call it like people were vomiting all over social media. Buy my product. Buy my service. So, all these people that were starting businesses were trying to sell what they had to offer and had no clue about what it means you know, social selling and what it means to have a brand. And that's what I sort of talked about in my presentation with these women is, you know, when you start a business, you need to figure out what your brand is, right? And that's really important. And then, you know, talk about what branding is and what it actually means and how you can do it in a way and, you know, engage with your audience and get them to fall in love with your brand and, you know, yada yada. And so I could see that people had no clue what they were doing. It was very obvious to me. So then I thought, okay, this is a problem. And I can't stand seeing all these terrible posts all over my social media. So, it's actually, I found it obnoxious. So then, I thought, okay, maybe I will start a podcast. And this is actually an interesting story. So again, I talked about serendipity and how everything happens for a reason. You know, I don't know if you believe it but people come in and out of your life. So, I was contemplating it and I was, you know, we were playing around with names and what we're gonna do, what I was gonna do. So, I was on Twitter and I had somebody reach out to me on Twitter. Do you know Marshall Atkinson?

I do, yes.

Okay, so I want to give kudos to Marshall. So, he reached out to me on Twitter. I don't know how we connected but he basically asked me if I would be a guest on his podcast. And I was like, 'Me? Why? Your podcast is called Success Stories. I'm not a success story.' Right. And he kind of knew a little bit about my story and he wanted me to be on. And I was like, 'Well, I said, okay, and I said, but funny that you should ask me about that because I'm thinking of starting a podcast, but I don't know anything about it or whatever. And he's like, oh, I can help you. It's super easy. And so he was amazing. He sort of gave me some tips. And anyway, I'm on his podcast. If you listen to his success stories, like I said, I was a little bit flabbergasted he wanted me on, but he was great. And so he sort of was the impetus for me saying, okay, well, 'If he can do it, I guess I can do it.' And I just came up with the name Branding Matters because it was that sort of double entendre. Like, it has to do with everything to do with branding. So, I didn't want to limit it. I wanted to be, you know, everything from creating a brand identity to logo to brand purpose to swag, right? Everything all-encompassing. So, all branding matters, but then also branding matters. Like, if you're a business, if you're an entrepreneur, a business owner, or anybody, you really need to understand how important it is to have good branding. So, that was where I came up with the name. And then, when I was going through my— just backing up a little bit— but when I was going through my, I guess, journey or transition, and when you asked me when I— my mindset, you know, when I decided like, okay, I'm going to get back and I'm going to work my ass off, I thought, okay, big part of branding is standing out from the competition, right? And everything you do. So, I thought, okay, I'm going to brand myself as the Branding Badass. I want it to be a name that's People will recognize, people will know. You know, so changed my LinkedIn profile, changed a lot, all my social media profile. And I started noticing people reaching out to me and saying, "Hey, I like Branding Badass." You know, they'll just want to connect with me and I'll say, "Well, you know, I'm curious why you want to connect?" They're like, "Well, I like the Branding Badass." And you know, and it would create conversations and that's what branding is about, right? Is making connections, creating conversations. So I had, now I was like the Branding Badass and So my podcast name is Branding Matters Badass Banter with Julie. So I was very intentional with all these things. And here we are.

Here we are. You've made this connection between sales and branding. And prior, take me to 2015, 2014. Had those connections been as clear as they are now?

Not at all. I wasn't as aware of it. Yeah, it's interesting. Again, I had one of my earliest guests that came on, Jeremy Miller. He's amazing. He wrote a book called Sticky Branding, if you're interested. And what he says, he talks about his story. He basically— his parents had a dry cleaning company. I hope I'm getting that business right. It was a long time ago. But anyway, they had a company that was failing miserably, and he came in to fix it. And it was like they didn't have a sales problem, they had a branding problem. So, he rebranded it, came up with a whole new concept, new name, new look, new everything. And they took off and they sold for tons of money and they made a killing. And so, I love that. I use that a lot because a lot of businesses, I think, don't understand that you may not necessarily have a sales problem, but you probably have a branding problem.

To that point, what have been 2 or 3 major lessons you've learned about hosting your own podcast, inviting guests into your show home, mapping this world between your sales experience, which was vast and is vast, and branding experience, and now doing this, would have been 2 or 3 key lessons as you look back on this journey and go, okay, now that I've mapped these things together, here's a few things I've learned that I didn't know back then.

Well, it's interesting because the world has also changed so much, you know, from when I first started too. I mean, again, we're all on social media, and I think branding has also become more important. So my definition of branding— and I'm sure if you talk to different people, everybody's is going to have a different definition. You know, a brand is an experience, right? I mean, they talk about your brand as your reputation. It's in other people's minds and hearts, right? You have no control over your brand, FYI. It's what people think about you when you're not in the room, what they say about, you know, Jeff Bezos and all that. So, you don't have control over your brand. Your brand is your reputation. But what you do have control over is your branding. And what your branding is, ways that you— it's a tool to inspire your audience and your consumer to fall in love with your brand so they choose you first. So, that's a really simple way that I describe branding. So, that concept, it's in the back of my head and I use it with everything that I do, right? How to stand out from your competition. I had another amazing guest on. I have a lot of great guests. And David Brier.

You have. Yes.

He's a branding guru and his website is Rise Above the Noise. And he talks about that, like how to differentiate yourself because that is— and again, I go back to social media because you are scrolling and it's blurred and you can't even tell one post from the next and they all look the same. So, what is going to stop the scroll, right? And that is what is gonna get people to notice you and to— so, That's marketing, right? So, I'm going to break it down. But marketing is getting people to know you, notice that you're even out there, right? They can see you. But then branding is now they've seen you, what's it going to take to get them to fall in love with you so they're going to be loyal to you and choose you first? That's good branding. And that's what people don't get, right? And so, that's where— that's what I've learned and I try to practice that. And you know, every time I bring a guest on, I feel like I'm having a private tutor, which is amazing. It really is. I've learned so much I can't even tell you. And so, sales, it's changed because we are more— consumers are more savvy than ever before, right? So for example, if you want to go buy a car, back 20 years ago, you'd go to the car lot. You'd talk to the salesperson there. You would ask a million questions. They would tell you about the car. They would tell you about the features, they would tell you all these things, right? Well, now you don't have to go anywhere. You go on your phone and there's this thing called Google. So now people know everything before they go anywhere. So a consumer, before they even talk to a car dealer, knows the make of the car, they know, you know, what it's rated, they know, they can even find out what they should pay for it and they won't pay a penny above it. So the consumer is way more, we have way more information and we're way more knowledgeable about things. So, sales has changed. So, I don't try to sell anything anymore realistically. I know that there's people out there that have a need and I just want to help them fill that need. And why I want them to choose, or why they should choose me first is because of all my knowledge and background and everything that I could provide at the end of the day to make their job easier. And you know, make it less stressful and whatever. I mean, a million things. But that's yeah, so I don't, I think sales, that terminology is gonna be non-existent soon. I don't think we're outselling— we're, you know, we're problem solvers, really is what we are.

It's a great point. As you started rebuilding your business again and you started mapping better branding and sales and marketing, what all that kind of meant, one path you discovered to help with that has obviously been your podcast. And for many folks that will ask me about content, content expertise, or what should I do, or how— what should I get into, you know, folks ask you all the time, what should I do? I always encourage them, play to their strengths, but pick a lane and invest. And that's kind of what you did. So what advice would you have for those who wanted to do something similar and create their own podcast?

Yeah, it's funny you say that. So I've had a lot of people reach out to me about that, to be honest with you. And I had— this is a true story— I had a friend of mine reach out to me and she was like, so I know this guy that wants— so I've had friends reach out to me and ask me, and I get on the phone with them and I've answered some questions. But I had a friend of a friend reach out to me. And you know what? My time is so precious and I feel like I give a lot away for free, right? My podcast is free. I do a lot of things for free. And I'm like, okay, I can't give stuff for free anymore. I mean, I just can't. So, I said to her, I said, sure, I'd love to help him but I charge X amount. And I didn't— I thought he'd say, okay, see you later. Well, he was like, okay, like, you know, he wanted to. So anyway, so it was kind of interesting. So, he wanted to pay me. And you want to pay me again just to pick my brain on some information. So, I guess I don't know why I told you that. But there's a lot of things that I share that I've learned. Advice that I would give, well, editing is key. You and I've talked about that. Right. I've heard people say, I've heard people say, I've talked to some other podcasters and like, oh, I don't edit because I like it to be really authentic. I like to be really organic. Well, okay, but you can still do that when you edit. I mean, if you knew how much ends up on the cutting room floor when you go see a movie, right? I mean, editing is an art. And it's funny, I love— when I first started, I taught myself. Like, I've taught myself how to do everything, how to do the editing, podcasting, promoting, whatever. But when I started editing, Marshall kind of showed me a tool to use, which was great. Thank you, Marshall Etkinson. And so I bet, and then I just learned how to do it. And it's key because you have to be considerate. This is what I say to people that ask me. I say, you have to be considerate of people's time. And when they're choosing to listen to your podcast, they want to make sure they're getting the value out of it. And because I was a copywriter in my past life, right? When you're a copywriter, you have to edit and edit and edit, and every single word that's on that page has to add value. And if it doesn't, you take it out, right? So it's the same thing with podcasting. So you want it to sound natural and organic. The other thing about podcasting is it's helping me become a better person in general because I have a really bad habit, or I used to, of interrupting people when they would talk. Ask my boyfriend, he loves it. So, you know, people be talking and I always interrupt and when you're a host and you're podcasting, I don't know if you experience this too, it's really important to let the guest speak, right? So you have something you want to say. I write notes and I have a note. So when they're done, I— so listen, be a good listener is really, really important. That's another tip.

By the way, the irony of doing a podcast where you talk is you're right. That's the number one lesson you receive is you learn how to become a better listener. And the thing about editing, you and I could go on and on and on. About that, because editing is storytelling. Every story that we process has gone through an editing process of some kind. And editing for podcasts is simply just removing the speed bumps. We don't want to cause too many of those slowdowns with the listeners' minds. We want them to stay engaged. And a lot of editing is like you said, every speaker will have some nuance or some special language tic, or the way they speak, or the way they're thinking, because we we all think in a very technicolor way.

Yeah.

And it's not completely black and white. What part of it do you enjoy the most?

Oh, I love all of it. I mean, probably the interviewing. You know what, the interviewing and the research. I'm a research person.

Yeah, same.

I like to know a lot about my guests when I interview them, not for any other reason than I'll do some research and then I'll find something that I want to learn more about. Right? So, I'll do research about somebody and there'll be something about what I've learned that I find intriguing. So, I'm like, I want to know more about that. I'm very curious by nature. I love asking questions. When, again, when I was on my first date with my boyfriend, he felt like he was on a job interview and I had the proverbial clipboard there. Because I just, I'm very interested in people and I'm curious. So, I love the researching and then I love this. I love the conversation, the one-on-one. I've learned, like I said, it's like a private tutoring session for me. What about you?

You know, I would, I would say the same thing. You actually could have given the same answer back to you, and that is learning from other people's perspectives. But like you, there have been some interviews that I have spent more time researching than I have actually crafting questions and having the interview, just because of the experience of the guest or because they have been on so many other shows and we didn't want to cover the same territory twice. And we wanted that topic to be fresh, but I'm with you. I love the idea of two things. One, depending on the guest, either unpacking a larger part of their journey so that we can understand who they are from someone who doesn't know them from Adam. And then the other part is probably focusing on a particular part of the journey. Like in this case, what you and I've decided to do is unpack— you, you've got so much more to your story, and we've unpacked the challenge that you had, how you began rebuilding your business back, and then the story of how branding and sales and marketing have all come to fit together into this world. But learning that about other people and their journeys and respecting the journey that they're on, where they're at at the moment, is probably what have been one of the biggest lessons for me.

Yeah, it's fun, right?

It's a lot of fun. It's rewarding and it's very rich. I encourage folks to do it. I think a lot of folks get into podcasting because they want to share an opinion. What you end up finding out is that you don't actually, as a host anyways, end up sharing as many opinions as you would think because you're inviting so many guests on. You want them to share their perspective. So I've learned actually that I don't have to be a part of the story. That's—

yeah. And you know what, and I love that. Like, it's funny being on the hot seat here today or whatever, I mean, I enjoy it, but I much prefer to be in your position.

Exactly.

I'm not by nature— I'm a promoter by nature. I love to say, look at so-and-so, look at look what they're doing, look how great they are. And, you know, I love to promote them. And so I get to do that right on my podcast. And when I find people that I, I'm so excited about, I love sharing their story and how they can help my audience.

So I want to go back to 2014, 2015, and to today. And now that you're approaching business again, you're approaching in a completely different way than you did before. How— what is the new Joelle Lee embracing now that you weren't in 2014, '15 as a salesperson? We talk about branding, but what did all those lessons teach you now that you're reentering this new phase of your journey?

So, uh, Jolie 2.0, right?

Yeah, right.

Well, from that perspective, I would say I'm better now than I was back then, which is kind of ironic considering my sales are not where they were yet, but they will be. But I'm better in the sense that, you know, and it is kind of part of branding because branding encompasses all things. And a part of it, a huge part of it, is customer service, right? That is a big part of your branding, right? Whether you're a big corporation and all your employees, you know, that is really important. And I've really had to step up my game. I mean, I thought I was good before. I did all the kind of standard things. But now, there's more choice than ever before. And I'm realistically, full disclosure, I'm probably more hungry than I was before. You know, in 2014, for quite a few years, I mean, I was just kind of coasting, right? I had some great, amazing clients and, you know, they were happy and I was doing sales and making great money and I was coasting, which I think, in retrospect, was a bad thing, right? It was kind of my— I don't know how I would describe it, but it ended up being a bad thing in the sense that you can't just coast. You have to always— what I've learned, so back to what I've learned about sales is you always have to go above and beyond. So, I'll give you one example. Back in 2014, if someone were to send me a referral and say, hey Jolie, I have this I referred you. Would you do some work with them? And I'd be like, yeah, absolutely. And they'd send me an email and then I'd email them back and we'd email and what do you need? And you know, that would how it would go. Well now, and this has happened to me a few times, someone will send me a referral or somehow someone will reach out to me. And the first thing I do is, do you want to hop on a quick virtual call? Right? And they're like, yes, I'd love to. So, I realized that get in front of their face. And again, it's the world we're living in because we're so used to being on Zoom or Teams or with anything else. So then again, it's back to connection. So, I want to make a connection as quickly as possible and as best as possible. So, I've done this a couple of times. I can think of 2 off the top of my head where, yeah, let's hop on a Zoom. We hop on a Zoom, we connect, we smile, you know, and then there's instantly that connection and they're now become good clients, really good clients of mine. Whereas before, I wouldn't have done that and I never made that connection. And so, it's about creating that loyalty again. So, that's a great lesson that has really helped me what to just secure the relationship, I guess, right? Which is really important. Another, I mean, I've always been, as far as customer service goes, I've always been really quick, like almost obnoxiously quick where, you know, when people— I'm one of those people who look at my phone, I have no like red dots on any of my messages because I can't, I have to reply right away. Like, that's just my nature, whether it's with my kids or family or clients. And so, that is great because I get a lot of people will say to me, "Thank you for getting back to me so quickly." I get that all the time. And I always think, "As opposed to what?" Like not replying? No, but I just can't. And I go one step further. Like I'll send someone an email or message and then if I don't hear back, I usually follow up with a call and say, "Did you get my email?" My boss always laughs at me. He's like, "Yeah, you always got to do the follow-up call to make sure." isn't always so reliable. And so that's what I do. But I just— yeah, I guess I've just— because I'm more hungry and, you know, I don't want to use the word desperate because I don't like that. I don't think I'm desperate, but I'm just— I'm really motivated and I want to prove that I'm— I want to make my clients know that they made a right decision in choosing me first for all the different reasons.

All right. Last question, Jolie 2.0. Who are your biggest influences in life or business and why?

You know, I was thinking about this question for a while and I get asked and, you know, and I could give answers like my family. You know, I've— my, my family are all— I come from a family of entrepreneurs. My brother, my two sisters, they all have successful businesses that they run. And I definitely look up to them and admire them and respect them for sure. But, you know, I would say Who I admire and respect the most, and this is on a very broad scale, is people who are successful and have come up against horrible, horrible adversity and overcome it. I admire that and respect them so much. And I think that's because of what everything I've gone through in the last few years. And I see some people, and I've had a couple of my podcasts actually, who have real grit. And who are self-made. I have a lot of admiration and respect for people that are self-made. You know, I can't stand the word entitlement for various reasons. Those are my heroes. Those are people that I, you know, no matter who they are, I, you know, there was a woman at the dry cleaners who runs a dry cleaners, you know, she's this Vietnamese woman and she left, she came to Canada, couldn't speak a word of English, had, I think, 3 kids with this man who beat her to a pulp. She left in the middle of the night with her 3 kids, started on her own, was in a shelter for— like, she tells me, she told me her story. Again, see, I love stories, right? So she tells me the story and leaves him and is in a shelter and then goes on. Anyway, fast forward, she owns a dry cleaners at the end of my street. Her daughter is graduating dental school. Her other son is graduating university. I mean, I told her, I said, you're my hero. I just, I, I cannot tell you, those are the people that I just look up to so much.

Yeah, Jolie, this has been really enjoyable. Thank you for being willing to share such a vulnerable part of your story. I know that's normal to you, and I know that's part of kind of how you've reinvented yourself as you move forward, but it's very inspiring. You know, you and I both have worked in similar markets And so I understand how business can come so rapidly, so well, it's still a lot of hard work, and then suddenly how it disappears in no time at all. And so I think those lessons for us, because I don't care who you are in this business, you'll likely experience that part of your journey at some point. And many of us did over the past couple of years. So I just want to say thank you for being so vulnerable and being willing to share that with us.

Well, I really appreciate you saying that. And, you know, full disclosure, I don't wish it on anybody. But at the same time, I kind of do, you know, it's like a breakup, you know, this is, this might sound weird, but you know, when you first time you had your heart broken, if you remember the first time you had your heart broken, nobody forgets that, right?

Right.

And all of a sudden every song on the radio was written for you. Right. Right. But until you experience that, like up until you experience that, you have no idea. And then you go through it and it's, you feel like you're going to die and everything. And then when you get through it and you move on, you're so glad you went through it because it made you a better person. And so, I kind of feel like that now. I mean, I'm not like where I was, but I see the light at the end of the tunnel and, you know, I'm working really hard. So, yeah, and I think it's made me an all-around better person for a lot of reasons and probably made me more vulnerable in that, or letting myself be— I don't know if vulnerable is the right word, but maybe more transparent. I used to be very guarded and, you know, I think I had to have this persona to protect myself. And I don't have that anymore. I'm like, yeah, this is who I am. And it's been tough, but whatever.

I also see with your journey that you have chosen to keep score of how success is measured in a different way this time forward than possibly you had in the past.

What do you mean by that?

That many of us, particularly in business, particularly in sales, particularly in a, in a Type A personality where we're in sales and it's go, go, go.

You're saying I'm Type A? No, no. How did you know? Yeah, for sure.

We tend to measure our success in terms of numbers, and it's, it's far more of— and that is how we get our self-worth, as opposed to understanding our self-worth is something intrinsic that changes from the inside out. I had a mentor once, he ran a billion-dollar company. He talked about— and it's full of salespeople, that the whole organization is the sales organization.. And I asked him one time, you know, what he looked for in successful salespeople. And he said he didn't look for people who wanted to make money. That wasn't what he looked for. He looked for people who wanted to do great work. And there was just the different way we keep score in the measurement of our worth is we can measure it by our gross sales numbers, which will change, and that episode could come crashing down on you when it does. And if you've measured yourself that way, that's going to compress you now too. But now it seems as though you're measuring that success in your world in a completely different way.

Well, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I, I don't know if I always feel that way. I mean, it's tough because I still have that mentality. And yeah, it's hard because I think I'm, you know, full disclosure, you know, I've talked about this. I've had a lot of people congratulate me on my podcast. It's, you know, and it's, and it's gotten on a lot of lists. And number 6 on this list and number 5 on number 10 best podcasts in Canada, like amazing lists and all that stuff. And then part of me feels like a fraud, right? Because it's like, I don't, you know, so I still have that. I don't want to say self-hate, but I don't know what it is. But I guess I can't really celebrate all those things because yes, those are good, but it's like, okay, well, but my sales still aren't where they were in 2004. 14, you know, like that is always there. And it's an interesting— I don't know why, but anyway, so I appreciate you saying that.

That's a great reflection too, though. There again, the list is much like the gross sales number, right? That's how we're not going to measure our success. Or others may ascribe that to us, but we're not going to ascribe that to ourselves because we also know— you also know, doing a podcast, how much it's inherently built into the work that you want to do better every time. We have our ideal of what we want to produce And then we know what we produce.

And I'm my worst critic too.

Oh, absolutely. Are you? Yeah, absolutely. Ira Glass said you'll actually never perform to the level of your expectation because your taste gets more refined every time. So it's always just a little out of reach, a little out of reach. Anyways, you and I could talk shop all day.

I know.

We won't do it. Julie, thank you for joining us on this QCast. This really has been a delight. Tell us about your podcast before we close.

So it's called Branding Matters, and I think I talked a little bit about what it's about. So it's really geared towards the entrepreneur, small business owner, marketer, and I bring on guests from all over the world from all different industries, and they share their really great stories but also incredibly valuable branding tips that ultimately are to help you, the listener, not only with your branding but ultimately with your business and, you know, increase your brand awareness, which will increase your profits. So I highly recommend you check it out anywhere that you listen to podcasts.

That's great, Julie. Thank you for joining us. This has been an absolute pleasure.

Well, thank you so much, and thank you for inviting me. And congratulations to you on your podcast because you guys are doing amazing things. And I think we have a lot of things in common that we talked about, and I'm so honored to be on here today. And just keep doing what you're doing because you're helping a lot of people too, and that's really what it's all about, right?

Thanks, Julie.

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SkuCast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing to SkuCast on iTunes or to our blog at community.commsku.com. Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening.