Episode 237: Marketing as Intrapreneurship with Ben Pawsey, VP of Marketing at HPG

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. Skucast is the official podcast of Common Skew.

Ben Pozzi is the vice president of marketing at HPG, one of the largest promotional product suppliers in North America, comprising 10 specialist brands including Hub, Org Audio, Debco, and more. Ben's a hybrid analytical creative thinker. He has a background in industrial design and has over a decade of experience leading ambitious design brand and marketing campaigns. His experience has ranged across multiple industries, including media publishing, e-commerce, event production, fashion, electric bikes, and has included time at Series A startups, nonprofits, and more. As an industrial designer, Ben's a unique marketer, solving problems through the lens of design development and strategy. He leads a large team at HPG, and he's passionate about sustainability. And just one of his previous successes includes leading a global marketing campaign partnership with Timberland that generated more than 1 billion media impressions. He has 4 Pyramid Awards for branding, marketing campaigns, and technology development. Ben was born in Bristol, UK, before becoming a permanent US resident in 2010 and is now based in the San Francisco Bay Area. Hi friends, I'm Bobby LeHew, CommonSkeew's Chief Content Officer. Today I chat with Ben about his team, his team structure, how they prioritize projects with so many brands, how industrial design impacts his marketing strategy, his tech stack, and I ask for his best advice for both suppliers and distributors when it comes to marketing excellence. By the way, yesterday we opened registration for Product Summit Holiday and Gifting. Product Summit is a fresh take on product education combining real-world learning, on-trend product ideas, and stories from pros in the trenches. The purpose of the Product Summit is to elevate how we think about product experiences in the industry, as well as equip you with cutting-edge edge product ideas.

And here's the best part—

it's designed with your busy life in mind. It's jam-packed with fresh insight and the latest in product trends, all in only 3 short hours. Invite your team to join us for this virtual experience on September 14th from 2 to 5 PM ET. You can register at commonskew.com/productsummit. Today's episode is brought to you by CommonSkew. The work-from-anywhere platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling you to process more orders and dramatically grow your sales. To learn more, visit commonscue.com. Now here's my chat with Ben.

Ben, $250 million in revenue, 10 brands, over 15,000 products, 7 facilities, different cultures, time zones. I mean, come on. Let's start with the mind-blowing topic of how you set and manage priorities through your team. Can you start by explaining your team's structure to us?

Yeah, so we have about 18 people and we split the team into 3. So there's a creative team, which is based here in California, and then we have a channel team that's really all about optimizing our channels that are more objective. And then we have a brand team, and the brand team, each member manages 1 or 2 brands, sometimes 4, just depends. And the way I kind of think of it is we have a left brain with the channel team, the right brain with the creative team, and the brand team are just kind of everything else, the eyes, the voice, the limbs, you know, they're kind of doing the external stuff.

So these project managers, or what did you call them, brand managers, where they're over one of the particular brands, let's say Batch and Bodega, and they then will represent that brand to you and the creative team for all the needs that you have for that brand.

Yeah, you could. Yeah, you can think of them like a project manager. They've got to make sure— they'll do a lot of copywriting, they've got to collaborate with the ops team, sales teams, they've got to, yeah, just kind of represent the brand and, yeah, all the campaigns go out successfully. Yeah.

How do you determine priorities with so many competing priorities? I mean, how do you determine which brand gets the most attention? How do you determine— is that a sales-driven conversation or just a demand-driven conversation?

It definitely fluctuates, but I'd say in general we just follow the money, like what's going to make the biggest financial impact for HPG. But the way we're set up, we found a lot of efficiencies by having teams operate across all of them with a lot of processes that help us. So we don't have to make too many compromises. We're very rarely saying, do we do this or this?

Okay.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. Um, what have you learned about structuring a team the way that you have? I mean, you've, you've had a couple iterations of doing other things too. So what do you think has been most valuable as you reorganized or organized the HPG marketing structure?

I'd say like, uh, one thing I go on about to my team is you need strategy, people, and process. Uh, if those are the three key pillars, and if you're failing in one, you're failing in all. I think the first year I came, we were really focusing on hiring the team and making sure that the existing team were doing the right jobs. As we went along, especially through COVID, because the team shrunk a bit, process became so key because we were all doing so little with less or so much less. And yeah, strategy has kind of— we've always had strategy, it's just got more sophisticated over time. So, yeah, so I think that, yeah, and the other thing I'd say that we do well here that helps, has helped a lot, is we have regular, we call them rocks meetings. It's based on the Rockefeller Institute where they would kind of have big hairy goals for the year and they'd make them into smaller rocks for each quarter. And then each person would own a piece of that. And then we kind of update those each month. So we have those projects where you kind of have to force yourself to find time for. That rocks exercise has really helped.

So we've really strengthened over time, uh, in part because, yeah, intrapreneurship is a word you introduced me to. What does that mean to you?

I picked up from when I worked at sustainable brands, uh, and the context of that is sometimes you have a sustainability champion, uh, and there was a book, a little book, it was like the Intrapreneur's Handbook that they used to give out.. But it doesn't have to apply to sustainability. It's really just about being a change agent at your business. You know, how can you— you know, we work in these corporate environments and sometimes things are done just because that's the way they've always been done. And if you have an idea to make it better, you could be an entrepreneur and figure out how to, you know, change things for the better.

That, um, that actually is a fascinating way to take what can be seen as a problem and obstinacy in a business and turn it on its head and realize that you're just iterating from the inside out on entrepreneurship. It's a very positive psychological term.

I remember at school, we had a talk where someone talked about the 3 Ps or the 4 Ps. And it was kind of, are you a prisoner or a passenger or a participator? Those are the ones that kind of stick out to me. And there are those people sometimes in a corporate environment, like, why do we do this? It's so dumb. It's never going to work. And those are the prisoners. And then the passengers just kind of cruise along, like, I'll clock in and clock out. But what you really want, you need passengers. You don't need prisoners, but you do need those participants that are kind of like fully engaged and always looking for ways that we can improve. In small and large ways. So yeah, yeah, so much more positive, you know.

Yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. With HPG, you have accumulated, merged, acquired multiple brands through the years. How do you create one brand voice through so many different unique product experiences? I would assume that that's a perennial challenge or a big challenge or was a big challenge as you integrate more brands. But, but how do you do that?

Well, honestly, I think it's a strength, not a weakness, that we have these different brands and voices. So, and I think it would be, it's a missed opportunity. And the last thing HPG wants to be is the monolith, like this is how we do things and how we talk about things. Right. And strategically, it's smart, I think, because we're sending out like 12, 14 emails a week. If they all look the same and sounded the same, subscribers would go if they all feel fresh and different and unique and they feel like you're coming from different brands. So then the challenge becomes like, yes, but they do need to somehow nod back to HPG. So where we focus is like standards, like photography needs to be at a certain standard, can all look different, but the standard needs to be up there. Same with the copy and the intelligence of the campaigns and those kinds of things. So we kind of lean into the uniqueness or the personality of these different brands. And I think it also makes sense because our footprint is all over North America. We have Depot in Toronto, Montreal, Texas, Boston. And these are all areas where people have very distinct personalities. So to try and tell a Texan you need to be more Californian, good luck with that conversation. That's going nowhere. And nor should it be. And the best team in tech is force of nature. They have this, we say yes, and they just get stuff done for customers all day, every day. That works so well for them that why try and temper any of that? It's just so bold, like, go for it. And that's one of the fun parts of working here is you can kind of take these attitudes or tidbits or tips and kind of roll them out everywhere and take the best. That's really the game of HPG is how do you make the sum equal more than its parts? And I feel like every year, every month, we kind of find different ways of doing that.

Yeah, that's really cool. So you really respect the individual footprint or the individual personality of each of those brands. And there's somewhat some autonomy, it sounds like, with some of these brands as opposed to treating HPG like the big headquarters that's going to dictate everything, you're respecting the individuality of each of those brands.

Yeah, there's always— yes, I think there's a positive tension there too, because we, we've had to earn our stripes, um, and there's— it's easy to, you know, stigmatize all these like Bay Area types, think they can do better than us. And we, we really are humble and have no ego. And all of these businesses were very access— very successful when, when they were acquired. So it's just sort of like, well, what can we learn from you? And what can we do better? And then over time, we kind of say, well, we tried this over here. Do you want us to try this for you guys? And it can be very organic that way.

Great attitude. That's a great attitude about it. I know you have a whole team with you and behind you, but here's what HPG's Chief Revenue Officer, Trina Bicknell, said. And I quote, Ben Posi makes all my dreams come true. So what is the role of marketing as you would define it for a company like HPG?

Uh, KTH, keep Trina happy. That's the, uh, I think, uh, I think that I'm biased obviously, but I think sometimes marketing is this sort of amorphous part of the company that no one really understands and My attitude is kind of like, how do we drive business? How do we differentiate ourselves? And really, if you boil it down all the way, marketing's job is to drive leads to sales. And if you're doing, you know, over time, we can drive more and warmer leads, then we should feel good about ourselves. So if Trina's happy, that means sales are going well, and if they're bad, then they're not. And Trina is really bright. She's really smart and so in tune with the industry. When COVID happened, it was her idea, like, we really need to get on this virtual trade show. We need to do virtual. And I was kind of like, I want to do it, but I don't want to do slides and a headshot. We should do something else. And she was like, go for it. And that ended up being a really successful thing. But Trina, It was Trina's idea, and then we just layered our whatever it is on top and, and made it different. And yeah, uh, uh, led to, led to lots of positive things. So there's lots of things like that where I think that's what is my dream come true, is that you'll have these ideas.

Yeah, well, since we're on the subject of Trina, let's, um, she helped correct me about something, and that in the industry, private equity gets a lot of shade thrown its way. But when it comes to iterating or developing, there's a tremendous benefit to having vested private equity companies who also have experience in other industries and other voices. And in many ways, just like you said, all of these disparate companies that are under the HPE umbrella bring experience to you just like private equity might. How else have we gotten private equity wrong?

There are definitely bad private equity firms and good ones. Um, but how I how I reconciled it in my mind is that they're essentially just house flippers for businesses. And if you are a house flipper, there is a way you do it where you just strip everything and put the cheapest beige paint you can, and then you just try and sell it on. But the smart ones, they'll upgrade the kitchen, they'll add the extension, and they'll try— they'll figure out the way to get the best return. And that's right now HPGs owned by an amazing private equity firm. And as you said, they have this kind of much broader perspective over business or the economy, and they have an amazing, very bright team of people that give us tons of advice and resources and all sorts of things. So there's that layer too. But yeah, I think that our private equity firm has transformed DEPCO. Like, DEPCO was like these three kind of warehouses and they were trucking things between each other. Now they have this like beautiful facility, it's all in one building. Yeah, with Mixi, like without, uh, without our private equity fund, we wouldn't, uh, have been able to upgrade them so much. And that's happened in a number of different locations. Yeah, that's cool. So good ones invest in— they— and the other thing I'd say is they're not dispassionate, you know, that they, they, uh, yeah, they understand you need a happy workforce to, uh, you know, and happy owners and those kinds of things to be, um, successful too. And yeah, and they've just kind of— they're more evolved. I think, I think all people think of private equity associated with like '80s Wall Street or something, and no, I see like they've evolved, you know.

Yeah, HPG has this big reach Um, and every time I interact with somebody like Trina, like you, uh, like Chris, um, it's a very personable company. How do you explain HPG to your friends or maybe to a new distributor?

Uh, to friends, I try and say it's like the Avengers of promo because like we have these kind of very different experts, you know, Harb is king of pens, you know, or queen of pens, and, um, and Best does coolies better than anyone. So HBG is this mishmash trying to help the promo world. But to distributors, I'd probably just say that, you know, an elite collective of expert hard goods suppliers or something very— Yeah. Yeah.

Or go with the Avengers one.

I don't know. Here's one of my toughest questions of the day. What can you tell us about Chris Anderson? That, uh, we don't know that you've learned from him? And do you think you can put in a good ride for me to get a plane ride someday?

I wasn't sure. I couldn't read Chris initially. I wasn't sure if he was, uh, because he's very successful. He's like a business titan. Like, he's done— yeah, successful. Uh, and similar to, like, you know, is he, is he a Wall Street kind of a person? But he's just so nice, and, uh, he's got, he's got an anecdote, a story, or a pearl of wisdom for any topic. So you don't need, like, one car ride with Chris and you'll have essentially had a degree in whatever the topic was. So, yeah, so I'd say I was surprised by how high his EQ considering how high his IQ is. He's very— Yeah, it's cool. Really good at reading people.

Yeah, it's very cool. What do you wish people knew about HPG that is hardly known but really worth talking about?

I think the footprint thing's interesting. We haven't just created this monolith and we're changing everything. So I think that's interesting. Also, I'd say our tools, we've developed apps for distributors to really help them get virtuals made quickly. So we have a patented, I can go into that later, but we have a patented set of tools that really help distributors. And the more people know that, the better. And then the other thing is, we are churning out so much content and we put it all on our website. There's a media library with photos, videos, and flyers, and that's always, always being updated. So you should never run out of stuff to promote or angles or ideas for pictures if you check out hpgbrands.com.

Yeah, that's cool. Let's talk a little bit about sustainability because I know it's a big initiative and I know it's actually a big passion project of yours. Very few might know of your background with sustainable brands. Can you explain that experience and how it helps you today?

So I moved to America in 2010 and still pretty young, and it was right after 2008. So I ended up— and I was really passionate about sustainability already. So I was like an 8th employee and I was unpaid, and then I got $1,000 a month stipend. And Sustainable Brands was basically trying to do TED Talks, TED events, but they were convening the business leaders, designers, sustainability professionals, marketing professionals, all in these kind of meetings and conferences. And it was just incredibly inspiring because you have some of the brightest minds, most successful people all in a room just like, how do we figure this out? And so I was there for 6 years and had a few different roles. I would do just the creative stuff for a while. So like the event backdrops or graphic design or web design and those sorts of things, but took on the digital arm of the business. So we were publishing a lot of news articles. Sustainablebrands.com has brand new corporate sustainability news pumping out every day and I had to kind of figure out how to make a business out of that. And so that was fine. And then we I also had a side project there to create a startup competition because we had all these kind of elites, but often the best ideas come out of these small, buggy startups. And it's like, well, if we can shine a light on them and maybe matchmake at the conference, it could be a big deal. So we sort of had a Shark Tank type thing at the conference, and that ended up being one of the most popular in terms of sponsorship and attendance and things. It became successful and we did it in a few different countries and that's where I met Thread. So that's where I—

Yeah, what is Thread?

So Thread's a social enterprise working in the poorest countries in the world and their whole thing is like the only way to fight poverty is to give someone a job. And in a lot of these places, there is a job to go and collect plastic bottles. And you can earn a reasonable wage if you do that well and are supported. And so Thread were taking this trash from the poorest parts of the world and then turning it into fabric and selling the yarn or the fabric to the largest apparel brands in the world. And so they were kind of connecting all of those things. So it's a social enterprise with this really strong environmental win. And, uh, so I, I joined that team and I did a bit of, um, sales and marketing for them. And, uh, I was like, you know, I, I joined— basically I knew the guys because I— because of the startup competition at Sustainable Brands and they got some funding and they said, you want to come do this? So I moved to Pittsburgh and, um, had a great time. Like, just amazing people. I'm still friends with them. Yeah, they do great things, still around. Very cool.

Yeah. Regarding sustainability in HPG, how does sustainability— I know this is a big question, but how does sustainability fit into the HPG immediate long-term future? Can you give us a glimpse into the priority of sustainability in HPG's values? Because marketing is at the tip of the spear when it comes to priorities that a company sets. Marketing is usually driving those priorities.

Well, you should tell Chris.

Big question.

Yeah, I don't know if we drive many of the initiatives. But I'd say that we, um, yeah, Chris is on the PPAI, uh, sub— he's on the PPAI board and the subcommittee of sustainability. So we're sort of really, uh, trying to be on the forefront of this industry-wide. And then HPG, uh, on the social side, we've been ahead for a long time thanks to Jing Rong, our VP of supply chain. Like, we have boots on the ground in China where the vast majority of our products are made. So in terms of social compliance and workers being treated fairly and all that good stuff, we've been good. And on the environmental side, as you know, it's like a very big, broad subject. So we're doing more on the product side, and thankfully that's because of customer demand. So the way I think of like sustainability within our industry is through the lens of life cycle analysis. So my background's in industrial design, and they would teach us about, about LCA. And the idea is, like, uh, if I really strip it down, you can kind of think of the product's life in terms of sourcing and then manufacturing and then the use and then disposal. Uh, and where you— what you want— where you want to start is thinking about where's the biggest impact, where's the most harm done, and that's where you want to spend most of your time. So if you're a car company, you could look at the manufacturing of the car, but really the use of the car is where most of the carbon's emitted and those kinds of things. So within the context of the promo industry, and not just promo but within HPG, we're sort of all over the place because you could look at Best and their cut and sewing and making coolies in the USA. So manufacturing is like great and locally sourced coolies essentially. Mixi brew all of their sanitizer and lotions and lip balms in the US. So that's like USA made. So for them, the manufacturing side isn't necessarily where we should be focusing. It might be where we're getting the bottles or the materials that we're using. So this is more the sourcing side. And then for companies like, uh, uh, Oregordio and, uh, then like those are long-lasting, heavy-use products, so we're not as worried about the disposal. We should care, but you know, that's not as important as, say, right, a hub or a product, products that are kind of thrown away more readily. So, so I'd say, um, Yeah, so we're kind of, and as you know as well, it's really down to every single department, every single individual really to think about how you can make it a little bit better. And yeah, so I'd say I'm personally working on something that I'm really excited to share with the promo world, I mean, for January to really help us talk about sustainability to end users in a better way. Because I met with— well, we'll get this from the sales team. They'll sort of say, give me a flyer with our sustainable products on there. And you're kind of like, well, are you ready for this lecture where I go through LCA? You know, like, no, I just want the bamboo ones, you know. And it's like, right, you know, and all the wheat straw ones. And the wheat straw is like an interesting example because the wheat straw is taking a waste product, this wheat stuff, and they're making a composite product with a polymer. So you can say, okay, at the sourcing phase, great, you're diverting a waste stream. But at the end of life, you can't recycle that or biodegrade that. That's now a problem at the use phase. So, yeah, so net, you can say, yeah, sure, it's sustainable, but, you know, it's not great. There are better ways to do that. But we have wheat straw stuff. So, um, yeah, uh, so yeah, so it's, it's a complex problem and I'm trying to figure out a way to make it easier to talk about, uh, without getting too, you know, throwing too much jargon at people or B2S. So what's this space? Can't wait to see that.

Yeah, yeah, I really can't wait to see that in January. Let's talk a little bit about tech, because tech is not just a big topic because we're a tech company. Tech is just the most critical topic facing our future along with sustainability now more than ever. How is HPG investing in tech, and what different ways are you seeing a progressive company like HPG invest?

Yeah, I think, I think tech is, tech is automation and data. Like, those are the, you know, you think of tech as like a big overarching thing, but really it's about automation and data. So HPG is investing in both. So on the Automation side, that's where we built these apps that you can upload a logo in any format and it will put it on a product instantly. So if you check out Storyboard+, that's a good example of automation. Or Catalog+, you upload any logo and it puts on every product on every page of that catalog. And then on the data side, HPG is a good, you know, we really need to figure this out and we've made a ton of good progress on it where we've got all these different datasets in different ERPs, and then we need to kind of get them all in one place in a clean way and then take advantage of having all of this data from different places. So, yeah, so I think that HBG is definitely prioritizing it and we're doing lots of exciting things there. And every year we hope we can build more tools and assets that help distributors. That's really where we are focusing our efforts.

Speaking of, I know you've been working intensely with our team. How important is product data, product order data, and seamless production and promo standards for a supplier? How crucial is that?

I think, yeah, it's definitely crucial. Yeah, consistency is key. You don't want to have to keep double-checking the pricing before you quote. And yeah, and this game, this game is all, this promo game is all about speed. So while someone's like, yeah, I'm kind of interested in buying 100 totes or whatever, you need to be right in there. Well, here's your logo on it. You want it? Yes. Okay, they're going to be here tomorrow. So yeah, it's definitely, definitely very important.

And yeah, regularly going back to your marketing team and structure and branding and what marketing tech do you and your team use? Like what's in your toolbox for getting things done?

Yeah, we lean on Asana a lot. That really helps with project management and just coordination, that kind of thing. And then we use ActiveCampaign for email and some automation stuff there. And Hootsuite for social because we've got so many social accounts and can manage that from one place. And yeah, it's probably about— yeah, it's probably about— and obviously kinds of things. Yeah, yeah.

Let's talk a little bit about Ben. Tell me about your background. Where did you grow up? Where did you go to school?

Yeah, Bristol in the UK, and, uh, is where I grew up. And then I went to London, Brunel University, for, um, uh, industrial design. And, um, I did, I did a— it's called a sandwich course. My third year, I got to go study abroad, and I went to San Francisco, and that's where I met my wife and she moved over and then we moved back together. So that's how I ended up here. But yeah, Bristol is great. I mean, Bristol, I highly recommend it's west of London, a couple of hours, and that's where Banksy is from. And Brunel, who was Brunel's sort of unknown, but he was like the Elon Musk of the Industrial Revolution. Like railways and suspension bridges and all sorts of things came out of that mind. Uh, so it was really cool to grow up in.

That's very cool. Well, that must have impacted you studying industrial design. I know you alluded— you talked about it a little bit earlier. How's that helped you in your role where you're at today?

Industrial design is really a blend of art and science, and marketing is just like that, right? So yeah, good point. And, uh, I'd say, um, a lot of it is human-centered design. So that's— so if you work in industrial design consultancy You could be working for a pet company or a tech company or a bag company. It doesn't really matter. And your goal is to kind of go in with a fresh pair of eyes, get your head inside of the problem, take ego out of it, and then figure out a way of innovating in a new way. So, yeah, it's been extremely helpful in that regard. And now the other thing I'll say is the degree is it wasn't an easy ride, and we were learning fluid mechanics and art and drawing and Photoshop and, you know, electronics and, you know, programming electronics and all those sorts of things at the same time. So at the end of it, I definitely felt like more confident in learning new things. So when it came to building websites, I was like, I can figure that out. And, you know, right, so you get more confidence in yourself. You can learn new things.

That's a great benefit. Who are some of the mentors and brands or people that inspire you?

Uh, it's kind of cheesy, but my dad is, is definitely one. Like, he, he's like much smarter than me, and, uh, he was a Cambridge engineer grad and worked on cloud chambers that, you know, for like particle colliders. And he was at HP forever, and he's just got, uh, a ton of wisdom, like business wisdom. And yeah, so he's, he's definitely a great mentor for me, and And then when it came to joining HPG, Jason Lukasz hired me. So in terms of getting into the industry, it doesn't get much better than that. And we're still mates and come by the office every now and then. And yeah, he's got amazing instincts. And so I say him and then Chris Anderson too, as I said, it's always great just to get an hour alone with Chris just to talk. And so yeah, so I'd say those are a few. I've been lucky, I've been lucky to keep in touch with all the CEOs of the companies I've worked with and feel like I've got good counsel if I have questions for things.

Yeah, yeah, it's very cool. Uh, what do you enjoy most about your role there at HBG now?

I genuinely mean this, just working with our team. I don't want that to seem like too cheesy or something, but we really have a nice, passionate, hard-working bunch and that are good at their job. So when you come to work, especially if you're leading the team, it's great to be like, hey, can you come up with something? And they just exceed expectations. And, uh, and, um, sometimes work's really hard and intense here, and, and, uh, and we've never had arguments, and there's no bad apples. It's just great. So I'd say, uh, uh, so yeah, so that's probably my highlight.

That's pretty cool. What, um, I always like to ask this question because it gives us a glimpse into your world, but what's on your desk right now in terms of priorities?

Oh, I'm working on the sustainability stuff. We've got PPAI 2023 around the corner, so I'm trying to figure that out. Holiday season is kind of crazy, so we've got that, and we're bringing out a new edition of Video Plus. So those are all things that I'm working on right now. I have a much longer list than that, but there's probably the other big ones.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure. Tell us a little bit more about you. What do you enjoy doing when you're not working?

I've got two young boys and a lovely wife. So when they're this young, that's kind of all my time. But if I do get a bit of time for myself, I really like all kinds of design. So I'm building a wall, but it's needlessly complicated. I'm building electronics into it. I don't really know what I'm doing, but I like doing that. And I'm learning like I'll get with 3D printing now you can design things and just get them shipped to you. So I'll do that. And I'm trying to redesign our house when I miraculously have enough money to, you know, do all those kind of do fantasy, fancy drawing of the rooms and rethinking how I've knocked down walls and all that good stuff.

So all your hobbies are so much smarter than mine. I just have to tell you that. That's brilliant.

I'll binge watch a lot of stuff too.

Okay, that helps. Thanks. You just made yourself human. The industrial designer just became human.

Throw in there.

Um, given your experience as a marketing professional, here's my last question. I'm curious where you think our industry can do better when it comes to marketing. How would you advise either a startup supplier or— and I want to hear your comment on distributors too— to do exceptional marketing that matters?

Um, well, I, I do think that, uh, I've seen companies not be very tactical, so they'll sort of like, we need a campaign Oh, this will be cool. But then they don't then connect the dot into like, what's the purpose of this? Are we going to try and build our email list? Are we going to try and gain a bunch of followers? Are we going to sell a bunch of self-promos? Like, what are we trying to do here? And make sure that question is always a reference for the next campaign you're working on. And then I'll say the other thing is I think you need to know, this just goes for any business really, but especially with marketing, think about who you are and why your audience values you and keep checking in on that because you need to kind of differentiate yourself but without losing sight of what your customers are looking for from you. So yeah, so you need to be distinctive but also don't forget the value. And yeah, and I think CommerceHQ is an absolutely amazing brand and business because you've just kind of, you know who you are You have Bobby looking after content and doing such an amazing job with that. I just think it's really great that you guys hired a head of content and then you recognized, I think it's genius. And the platform is beautiful too. The idea that you're not necessarily just searching for everything all the time, but you're using the community to help filter things down, I think just is so clever too. And I think you can just, learn a lot from CommonSkill and just do what they did.

Thank you, thank you for that, Ben. Appreciate that, my friend. Hey, I've enjoyed this, and you and I had a nice conversation before this where I just really enjoyed hanging out with you. And what you and Chris and Trina and the gang are doing there at HPG is really, really impressive. And it takes a lot of work to build a big brand that is also very personable, real, practical and inspiring, and you guys have done a great job. So thanks for joining me today, my friend.

Thanks so much, Bobby. Absolute pleasure. Hopefully I'll see you at one of the events soon.

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