Episode 243: The Quiet Power of Resiliency with Chuck Hammond, CEO, Raining Rose

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. SkewCast is the official podcast of Common Skew.

Raining Rose is one of the most respected manufacturers in the industry. Chuck Hammond bought the family-owned business back in 2003. At that time, there were 15 employees, and today Raining Rose employs over 300 full-time and 150 contract employees. Raining Rose was an early adopter of everything sustainable. They received their LEED certification in 2015, were designated a B Corp in 2016, and Rainy Rose has appeared on Fortune's annual 100 fastest-growing inner-city businesses an impressive 10 times since 2005. They were 8 times on the Inc. 5000 list, and in 2013, Chuck Hammond was named Small Business Person of the Year by the U.S. Small Business Administration. And in 2021, ASI awarded Chuck Entrepreneur of the Year. And note, every time you place an order with Raining Rose, they donate 1% of their annual profits to Heifer International, a nonprofit that seeks to lift communities from poverty and eradicate hunger all around the globe. Hi friends, I'm Bobby LeHew, CommsQ's Chief Content Officer, and today Chuck and I talk about the tremendous but quiet story of Raining Rose and Chuck's journey as a leader. We chat about hiring and retention, the surge in USA-made products, and a lot more. Before our episode with Chuck, we recently released the schedule and topics for our in-person event, SKUCon. SKUCon is an event experience that sits at the cutting edge of merch life, featuring talks by tomorrow's leaders, stories from pros in the trenches, and radical thinkers who will push you and your team to dream and grow. The in-person event will be held on Sunday, January 8th, at the beautiful Frank Gehry Design Keep Memory Alive Center in Las Vegas. And a virtual event will be held on Thursday, January 19th. Join us to hear Michael Bonnier-Stanier talk about the 5 Question Leader, or Nick Cesaris will be speaking on Web3 and NFTs, fad, friend, or foe. Travis Veit and Caleb Gilbertson, founders of fast-rising Imprint Engine, will join us for a fireside chat. And 3 of the industry's top sales leaders, Trina Bicknell, CRO of HPG, Samantha Cates, Chief Sales Officer at Spectre Co., and Holly Brown, CRO at Polyconcept, will talk about CRO secrets to driving sales success. Nathan Bailey, president and founder of Ideation, will join Jeff Becker, CEO of Kodas Design, and Stephanie Taylor, co-founder of HelloPromo, in a discussion on the tipping point behind 3 epic success stories. And finally, Ali Delgado with Merchology will share float like a butterfly, merch like a bee. Now, those are just some of the topics you'll experience at the 1-day event, and we are already 70% sold out. Those remaining tickets will go really fast. So register you and your team at skucon.com today. Today's episode is brought to you by CommonsQ, the work-from-anywhere platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling both distributors and suppliers to process more orders easily and dramatically grow your sales. To learn more, visit commonsq.com. Now here's my chat with Chuck, but one quick note. When we recorded this episode on Thursday, September 29th, Hurricane Ian was tearing its way across Florida, and despite Chuck having lost a home in the flood that very morning, and with friends and family safe but a whole community to be concerned about, he felt it important to share in an effort to encourage others. I hope you gather strength from the resiliency in the Raining Rose story and in Chuck's journey. And thank you, Chuck, for recording with us on what was a very difficult day. Here's our chat. So Chuck, a couple of critical points in your journey.

You're an attorney by profession from the telecommunications industry, and you bought Raining Rose, a family-owned business in 2003 that at that time had 15 employees. Now there are over 300 full-time and 150 contract employees. You just bought a 200,000-square-foot facility. You're coming up on your 20th anniversary next year. And as you look back at your journey, What were some of the most critical moments in Raining Roses' growth?

Yes, thank you for having me. And first of all, I wanted to say we're recording this right as Hurricane Ian is unfolding, and we have friends and family in Sanibel, Fort Myers, and I just want to at least recognize that there's a tremendous amount of turmoil and heartbreak and, and, you know, just destruction going on, and they're going to be businesses that may be listening that are affected, and I just want to make sure that I at least acknowledge that it's a hard time, and it's one that we've been through as a company, and so, you know, I understand where some of this is, where people have been, because I'll skip ahead a little bit, but you asked, you know, so what are some of the defining moments? In 2008, Cedar Rapids had a 500-year flood, and we were well away from, we were actually out of the flood zone, and yet ended up with 8 feet of water in our facility. And, you know, and I tell this story to every new employee, 'cause we have an onboarding class, And, you know, I think it's really important to understand it because it was, it truly was defining in that, you know, we lost everything. I mean, we lost our machines. We had just purchased our second lip balm line about several months before. So, you know, brand spanking new. We lost our raw materials. We lost our production facility. We lost our finished goods. I mean, we literally lost everything. The only thing that we didn't lose that was of an asset that we needed was our computers and our data, and that's because our IT guy did not listen to my instructions, because I said, "Put everything on the desk," and then he went behind me and moved them all up to the small second store office, second floor office we had. And so, you know, thank goodness he had the conscience of mind to do that. No. But we lost everything. And so then we waited as the waters receded and the National Guard had to clear all the buildings. And so we waited and there was no real, you know, nobody knew when we would get back in. And it was, I mean, it was incredibly stressful because, you know, this was our entire business. I mean, and we were not a big company at the time. And so, but, you know, we waited and then all of a sudden the National Guard said, you know, 'cause they would clear streets as they, and then let people through, and so ours got cleared and we went in, and you know, within, I don't know, within an hour, people started trickling in, and I hadn't called or rang a bell or, you know, sent a Facebook post, it was just word of mouth, our employees knew we were ready, and so they came back and we started mucking out the building, We spent weeks clearing stuff out and we ended up leasing short-term space. We ended up having 7 different facilities where we would like mix lip balm in this one place and then ship it to a vendor who was running a second shift for us and they would fill it and then they'd ship it to another place where we ended up renting somebody's warehouse but they wouldn't let us use their bathrooms so we had to bring in porta-potties. Not a single employee complained. And they're just— it was awful conditions. And yet everybody banded together. And we not only survived, we actually grew our top line that year. Wow. In spite of all those circumstances. And, you know, and I sat back and as I saw this all unfolded and then finally I reflected, you know, I'm like, we truly are. I mean, I'm one of the few people that could say our employees are our company, you know, and people say that and it sometimes comes off as lip service. But I mean, we lost everything. We lost all our stuff, and yet we had our people, and that was what got us through. And so, you know, that was clear. One of the most pivotal points is, you know, you take care of your people, your people will take care of you and the business. And so we really, I mean, we try to do that. And, you know, it's not that it's a quid pro quo. It's just the way life works. And so that's, you know, honestly, as I sit and watch what happened in Florida with Ian, I'm like, you know, this is, this is going to be a hard time for a lot of people.

Um, thank you for mentioning Ian. I know you have friends and family, and you have yourself, you have your home there, and I'm so sorry to hear about that. I'm glad to hear friends and family are safe. Raining Rose is an astonishing story. As I began to read more and more about it, you've appeared on Fortune's annual 100 fastest growing inner city businesses list an impressive 10 times, 8 times on the Inc. 5000 list. And as you mentioned, one of the most impressive achievements at Raining Rose is the long tenure of many of your employees. Um, speak to that business owner, maybe it's a young supplier trying to get started in the business in a time where hiring and retention are quite volatile.

How have you been able to keep talent?

Can you expound on that a little bit more?

Yeah, I can try. I would say, you know, one thing I've seen is that what we did 20 years ago is not the same thing that's working today. And yet, you know, I had a business partner and this was one of the— another pivotal part of our company who, when we bought the company, it was Art and I. And then he got sick and passed away 3 years later. And, you know, but at one point, and he was a been-there-done-that kind of guy, a phenomenal mentor. And, you know, and he said, Chuck, you know, you're a great CEO because you hire people that are better than you and you get out of their way. And I decided to take that as a compliment. And I, But, you know, I think there's real truth to that in that, you know, I've seen companies where they're structured where it's, you know, the CEO, the owner, whoever it is, is sort of the A player. And then they want to surround themselves with B players so they always are perceived as this brightest spot and the person making all the decisions. And I've been really, you know, having lost a partner, I, you know, I've it happens. And so, you know, to build a company that pivots on me could be a very foolish endeavor. Not so much for me because I'd be the dead guy, but for my family and the company and all the people, you know, we support now 325 families. And so, you know, I've really taken— I take great pride in the fact that I do seek out people that are really good at what they do or or very good at jack of all trades, you know, but just people that excel. And, and, but then also let them, you know, if you, if it's your department, then I want you to run it, and I'm not going to tell you how to do it or what your staffing should look like. But I like working with people and helping people, you know, how, how do we troubleshoot things. And so, you know, we, we have maintained that because I, I rarely tell people what to do. I ask a lot of questions. 'cause generally I'm genuine curiosity. And yet, but through that, we kind of find ways to move forward successfully. At the same time, I was in a meeting earlier today and I'm like, how is it that I'm going on 20 years and I still feel like we're figuring this out? But I do. And then the last 2 years have shown that the world can pivot almost in an instant, and what worked yesterday is no longer going to work. And we have a value system, or, you know, it's called ASPIRE, and it's Attitude, Safety, Passion, Integrity, Relationship, and Evolve. You know, so it's kind of clever, it makes a word, but it does help you. I remembered it there, and I really do believe by it, believe in it. And, but, you know, the last word does evolve, and it's there on purpose because if we don't, we will become extinct. And I think we owe it to ourselves to continue to look at how do we do things maybe in a different or unique way than we did before because it might be better.

Yeah. A little about Raining Rose. Before you were certified B Corp, you received LEED certification for your sustainability facility in 2014. Now, for listeners like me who aren't in manufacturing, LEED stands for Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design. It's the most widely used green building rating system in the world. It's a globally recognized symbol of sustainability achievement, leadership. Why was it important to make such a major investment to become LEED certified for you back then?

You know, it's, it's both the, the LEED certification and ultimately the B Corp status were almost ratifications of what we were doing before. So instead of it, us evolving to become that, we actually used that to kind of document what we were already doing. You know, the company we bought in 2003 and it was primarily a natural-based— I mean, we were in the promotional industry, one of the first natural-based beeswax, Burt's Bees type lip balms that was available at all. And so it was in our ethos as far as taking that approach and trying to be, I mean, we're trying to be environmentally conscious because it's the right, it's just been the right thing. It's in our DNA almost. And so ultimately it's good business because, you know, if we can recycle, reuse, whatever the buzzwords are, repurpose, but, you know, all of that ultimately It makes a heck of a lot of sense and it also, you know, makes people, gives people pride and a reason instead of just, you know, you can go work anywhere. But at the same time, if you work at a place where you feel like collectively we're trying to do the right thing, it seems to be a place where you feel a little bit more, I mean, at least the right people, it feels like it's more of a, it's a better fit and a longer-term fit.

Yeah. In 2016, when you became a certified B Corp, there were only a total of 1,789 B Corp certified worldwide. Now there are over 5,000, and I think we still underutilize B Corp status, our industry, when talking with customers about who manufactures our products. You mentioned the really big benefit there is just the pride in working for a company with B Corp status. How else has it changed Rainy Rose? You said it was a ratification, but have you also seen it change the way you do business going forward?

I mean, it's changed in that there's— as it's grown, it's gotten more recognition. And so people— it used to be we'd say we're a B Corp and you'd get kind of this blank stare, like, oh, you're not an S Corp or C Corp? You know, and it was perceived— and so it took a while and has taken a while for people to understand that, you know, it is really has much more, it's not a legal structure as much as it is a culture and a way of doing business. And we are seeing, I mean, it's growing everywhere, that whole, but, and again, it boils down to, there's greenwashing where people talk the talk but aren't really doing it. And this is, it adds some teeth to the fact that we're audited I think we have to re-go through the audit process every 2 years now, and it's rigorous. And, you know, but on top of that, we have a number of customers that do social audits that come in and literally walk through the plant, talk to our people, and make sure that, you know, if we say we're recycling, they look to see if The records and books show that we do that. I mean, and so, you know, so, and I think that that level of accountability is important because then people, our customers that want to deal with somebody that's saying they're doing it, they need to know that we are. Yeah. And so I think the awareness has been a big part of it.

Over 237 million units of product annually, if I got that number right. It's probably grown since I read that, including lip balms lotions, sunscreen, hand sanitizer, deodorant, soap, and other personal care formulas. What percentage of your sales are promotional products versus private label?

So it's about two-thirds private label, one-third promo. It boils down, I think, in large part because we are a manufacturer, and so we're, we're really deep in certain product lines. And so to do that, we have to go to different markets and industry or, you know, sales channels. And so, you know, we've talked about, you know, how do we grow different aspects of the company, and yet we sort of kind of go back to what can we make. And then if we can make it, we can control the process, the inputs to a certain extent, the outputs, and, and then we you know, then we find if we can make it, then we need to find channels that we can spread those manufacturing costs out over. Yeah, it's worked out really well for us.

Do you find that you're cross-pollinating ideas from your retail to promo and vice versa?

I do. Um, you know, one of the things promo loves— new. Um, they, they love, you know, the, the new product showcase has always been one of the most popular places of the shows. And, and so, you know, we can feed off of that from what our contract and manufacturer contract customers want, a private label. And then, you know, and vice versa. And, you know, some are great successes, and sometimes they're— we think they're brilliant and they're duds. I mean, we, we made a two-sided lip balm that you could mix and match flavors, and we thought we had just reinvented the wheel. And You know, but it was, it was, it had some moderate success. And at the same time, it was not, it was not the new wheel. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's fascinating. And I have that because this is the second time I've heard this this year that promo kind of leads in some innovation and to some degree because of the requirement for new.

I completely agree with that. I mean, there's just so much, and there's a willingness to try things. I mean, especially when, you know, you know it may be a giveaway, and so people will take things and try things that they may not buy.

Right.

And so, and that can give it, you know, an energy that it just sort of launches things. I mean, I, you know, the whole fidget spinner thing, You know, I don't know that anybody bought many, but they're everywhere. And they were big in the promotional world. And yet, I have 3 on my desk because I fidget.

Right. Same. Now, as the rest of the world struggled with supply chain, you largely manufacture here in the US in Iowa. How were you impacted by supply chain challenges?

I would say the biggest issue has been inputs, you know, the raw materials, for instance. We use a lot of beeswax, and so— and we use a lot of organic beeswax. And so, you know, there's a finite market or source of, of that because, you know, one of the challenges with— just pick on beeswax specifically— but, you know, to have an organic, certified organic product, you have to be able to show that it isn't adulterated with pesticides. And, you know, and it's, it's easier when it's planted in the ground. It's a lot harder when it has about a 5-mile flight radius.

Yeah.

So, you know, and bees— so you have to basically cover a great deal more of the, the geography. And so there are only certain places in the world where that actually— that, that can be done. And so that continues to be a challenge. And then just some of the more recent world events, I mean, we also use a lot of sunflower oil. Right now, it's sourced in the middle of a war zone. And that's one of the largest areas, or largest producers of sunflower oil. And so, you know, finally, because we use a lot of natural products, or natural, materials and products, in their products, you can have a crop or crops that fail or are subpar that all of a sudden affect availability and pricing. And it can, you know, because it's a commodity. And so it's, you know, we, a few, maybe 5 or 7 years ago, jojoba oil, there were several crops that failed across the world. And all of a sudden, if you could get it, it tripled in price. And so that means you have to pivot. And either— and so we've, you know, we've been in this long enough that we know how to pivot. At the same time, you know, reformulating is challenging and it takes time and testing and depending on the product. And so it's a constant sort of dance of what you can get, what is, you know, what's the current, you know, also just what do people want. So, you know, there's some of the super fruits and different things that have come in and out of the world. You know, you're like, okay, how do we find this? I mean, we had people knocking on the door for, I can't even think of it now, CBD.

CBD, yeah.

I mean, it was, we literally had people standing in line almost saying we wanna do it. And now it's sort of not, you don't see that many, much demand for it. I mean, it sort of had a surge and then it was over. Yeah, we, we try to pick the right places to invest in the, in the resources and then build those relationships so we have predictable sources.

As one of the most respected manufacturers in our industry, ASI's Entrepreneur of the Year in 2021, and as a U.S. manufacturer, what's your your perspective on the future of US manufacturing? Has there been a net positive for Raining Rose because you manufacture in the US?

Yeah, I think there has. I mean, if, and I can't say, oh, we've gotten so much more business as much as I think there's more of an appreciation. And I think that's really important because, you know, sometimes we'll be competing with products that candidly, I mean, We've been in situations where there'll be a supplier that can sell something for the same price that we can buy the empty container and haven't even filled it yet.

Wow.

And so, you know, that, and yet I think that when people start looking at sort of where it came from and, you know, when you think about lip balms, lotions, creams, anything, you know, Your skin's your largest organ, and if you're going to put something on your body, you probably want to know where it came from and that the people that are doing it are doing it in a way that creating that product that in a sanitary environment where you, you know, that you want to— there's a lot of trust. How about that? And I think that we have shown that because we're here It also gives us flexibility, you know, we don't have the same lead times or shipping times, and I'm really proud we make it in America, and I think it's important. I mean, I personally, it's changed my way of shopping as well, and that if I can find an American-made something, I'll typically defer to that. I'd rather have one really good one than 5 sort of disposable ones, right?

You, um, Chuck, you tend to shine the spotlight, and you touched on this a little bit earlier, and I'm curious why. And it's not a, not a criticism. I totally respect it. I'm just curious, is it your personal preference? Is it as a result of like being private label? What's—

no, it's— I mean, it really is, it's incredibly personal. Um, and you know, and it's just, it's one of those things where, you know, sometimes, especially in the early days It's easy to say this is the guy who's making it happen. And, you know, because it's hard to get 50 people on a stage, you know, in my heart of hearts, I realize just how little I do in the day-to-day of our company's success. You know, I'm kind of like this sort of 60-year-old cheerleader as opposed to any heavy lifting. And My personality is one that I love talking and working with people. I loathe talking at people. I mean, to get through this, as a matter of fact, I'm focusing on you as opposed to the fact that there's anybody overhearing what we're talking about.

Right.

I feel like there's so many people involved in so many stories that I'd rather be a behind-the-scenes guy.

What do you enjoy doing when you're not working?

It sounds silly, but one of my favorite things is getting up in the morning and walking my dogs. I know that's— but it's just, we have some woods that we walk through, a pond that I walk around, and it's very therapeutic for me. After that, if it's a time like a weekend where I don't have a lot on my plate, I have 3 adult— well, my wife and I have 3 adult children, and then actually 4 because one of them is now married. So, you know, we have— we're empty nesters, and I have a woodworking shop, and I really like making furniture and learning new things. I love learning new things. I— those two things. And then I, you know, putter around. There's always something that's broken.

Where did the woodworking come from? Did you grow up around that?

Um, I— as a kid, I always did do woodworking. Um, my dad was a doctor, and he was Not handy at all. As a matter of fact, my mom would not tell him things were broken and then ask me to do it behind the scenes. 'Cause he one time ripped a light fixture out of the ceiling. But it's always, it's probably been, it's probably my one natural talent is I understand. I mean, in the early days of Raining Rose, for instance, I was the mechanic. I fixed the, I kept the machines running. And that was for several years. I mean, now they wouldn't let me touch it. Because they're all very sophisticated and have computers. And but in the early days, it was cogs and electric motors. And I could, I could, it was very mechanical and I could do it.

So I am the exact opposite of you, Chuck. I had to pay my best friend in high school to finish my woodshop project because I couldn't do it. So I totally respect that. I totally respect anyone that can, can do that.

It's just such a, I mean, it just It's always been something that's tripped my trigger. And, you know, and so it was great. We had two boys and a daughter, and the boys and I would play Legos. And, and Katie was very much into sports. And so, you know, we all found our niches. But I mean, I spent hours playing Legos with the kids because it's just something that—

building.

Yeah, building.

This is a question from a member of the CommsCue community, Sanjay with Range Enterprises from Toronto. And he wanted me to start asking guests What book, podcast, video, or article have you read either recently or maybe in your formative years that really made an impact on you?

You know, there, there are two, um, that I, I can sort of— are top of mind, and I'll, I'll do it in order of appearance. Um, in the very early days, I read a book called Growing a Business, and I still have it up on my bookcase, and it's written by Paul Hawken. Who had started a company called Smith and Hawken. They ultimately, they were garden, home and garden tools, sort of, you could buy a $30 hoe or fancy British hoe or, you know, I mean, but they had a neat niche, but it was just such an interesting story for me to read because it really lit my passion for small business and And just how some of the simple stuff is so powerful. I just used this example last week that I'd read from this book, which made me think about it, was, you know, he had a mail-order business and they were struggling because there were shipping errors and they were trying to figure out how to fix it. And, you know, the different systems and And they finally said, he went down and he, I think, you know, this was many years ago when it was real money, but he put $50 in a jar, 50 $1 bills. And I think he said, now every time we have a shipping error, we're going to pull a buck out. And at the end of the week, you guys can have what's left. And, you know, it seems so trite and simplistic, and yet it's powerful because it's sitting right there. You can see it. It's real time. You can feel the impact. And those types of lessons are chalked through the book. And so that one was one that really, I mean, it really lit a passion for me. And I haven't reread it in a while. And so it might, you know, the readers might go to it and go, oh my gosh, but it was really sort of lit a fire. The other one I've read, or I'm reading, I guess, so I can't speak to the conclusion, but was actually The Book of Joy by the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu. And I read about this, actually it's a fairly tragic way that it came to me because I was reading an article about Kent Taylor, who was the founder of the Texas Roadhouse. And he actually committed suicide in the last year or so because of press release, I think, said something to the fact that he was battling post-COVID-related symptoms and he had tinnitus, terrible tinnitus, and I may be mispronouncing it, but ringing in the ears, and it was so bad that he just, he literally could not take it anymore. Tragic, you know, and in a sort of a certain irony, he gave this book away to many, many people and it was very powerful And so, you know, I was sort of struck by that. And yet, you know, I started reading the book because, you know, these two authors are, you could argue, have not had the most joyous existences. And yet they're writing a book on that. And, you know, and I think that we sometimes get so hung up on what's the definition of success. And the easy calculus is, well, check your account and you'll see how successful you are. Check your car, check your house, fill in the blank. But, you know, it's financially driven. And, you know, I know I'm getting to be an old man and I've always kind of been crazy, but, you know, I was talking to our children the other day, we were at dinner, and I said, you know, you really need to be thoughtful about the fact that there are more than just one currency. And, you know, right now time is huge. And so don't lose track of the fact that, especially as they're young and starting out, but time is a currency that has a value that is so underestimated. And I think then it sort of segues into, so is happiness or joy. And I look at some of these people that are in the public eye, and they seem really rich and powerful and miserable. And I'm like, why would you do that? And so, you know, so I think that being able, you know, and there were times in my life, I mean, when I was in the telecom industry, I worked a lot and I was busy and I was very, you know, I thought at the time, very important and pretty much a jerk. And, you know, and finally, I mean, I sort of got some perspective, and part of it was from some strongly worded conversations with Mrs. Hammond. But, you know, you just, you do learn that, at least you try to learn, is that, you know, there's more to life than just a paycheck and however you do that. And so I think that especially the last couple of years have been really you know, they've been tough. They've really been tough on people. I've tried to work through this book, and it's not an easy— you know, it's not a hard read, but it's not one that you sit back and go, this is an interesting story, right? And yet at the same time, I think it's important.

I'm going to read that. I've just finished the biography of the Dalai Lama by Pico Iyer, so I'm really fascinated to read this. Thank you for the recommendation.

Um, since—

just last two last questions— and since there are many entrepreneurs in the listening audience and many many supplier entrepreneurs as well. Talk to Chuck Hammond from 2003. I mean, what would you tell him if you could? You kind of did maybe there, but what advice would you give him, um, that would help him the most? What would you tell him to do? What would you tell him not to do?

You know, I can't remember. I think it was Lizzo who was asked this question a couple of weeks ago, and she's like, I'd say nothing because she might screw it up. Um, I've done okay, and I have to laugh because there's some truth to I mean, I think part of it is finding your way. And so, you know, I think it's easy to look back and go, I'd have done this, I'd have done that. But, you know, I do think that, you know, I was terrified to take the leap to do my own thing. And, and it really— I mean, one of the things that got me over the hump was Art Christofferson, my business partner, who said, let's have lunch, and then said, do you want to do something together? And I wonder, had he not entered my life, if I would have ever had the gumption or the guts to do it. And so, you know, and I think that one of the things, at least the young Chuck, you know, I had been an attorney for a few years and was just uniquely bad at it and didn't enjoy it. And then I was sure it was the firm, so I went to another firm and guess what? It was actually me. And so, but then I managed a little textile plant and I loved it. And, but, you know, I kept trying to find my, the end of that job, my final job. And I didn't realize that it was really a journey. And I think younger, the younger generations have figured out that you can do something for a couple of years and then go do something else. And it's not, you know, you graduate, you find your thing and you do it forever. And I think there are more opportunities, or people are creating more opportunities. But long-winded answer of saying, you know, if you have something that you want to try, or I think you do, I mean, you know, it's, and you, and it, you know, can border on reckless. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And yet, I don't know, if you don't try, you're not going to do it. Yeah.

Last question. Of all your accomplishments, both personal and professional and the company, what are you most proud of?

You know, it's, it's, it seems pretty easy for me, honestly. It's my family, our kids. I mean, you know, at the base level, at the, it's sort of the biological level, we're here basically to create more of us in the simplest of form. And, uh, you know, and that, and we've done that. And at the same time, you know, we have 3 incredible children and now 4 with our daughter-in-law, and you know, we're all still very close as we work through the current, you know, sort of the storm and some of the challenges of friends and family spread out. You know, there's a— we have family chats that have been lit up, and you know, there's still a great deal of connectedness, and I hope we keep that for— I mean, my wife was supposed to run in a half marathon with our daughter this weekend, and you know, which sounds miserable, but I mean, she does it because they— we will all go and do it, and I'm supposed to hold signs. And, um, but you know, I— that, that's been just an incredible source of joy. And yet, you know, in the early years, kids are hard. I mean, yeah, being a young parent's hard, not sleeping's hard. And, and, you know, but at the same time, wow, one of the best things I've ever— I mean, just It's just so rewarding.

Yeah. Well, Chuck, it has been an honor to chat with you, my friend. Really, truly an honor. And our hearts go out to you and your family and in Florida and friends in Florida. And we'll be thinking of you. Thanks for taking the time to talk with the CommaSue community. You're a very respected brand, very respected person. And, and we appreciate your encouragement here.

Well, thank you for having me. And I just, I hope Florida is okay. I mean, I really and not at a personal level, but because it's just, there are millions of people that have been affected. And having experienced a flood ourselves, it's hard. And yet people rebuild, it brings people together, but it's not the way you want to do it. So, but thank you. And this industry has been, it's been really good for us as far as we've grown, we've learned, we've stubbed our toe, we've recovered. But it's an incredible community, and, and I think that's what makes it what it is, honestly.

Thank you, Chuck.

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SkuCast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing subscribing to SKU Cast on iTunes or to our blog at community.commsku.com. Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening.