Episode 245: Connection Through Design with donothingclub

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. Skucast is the official podcast of Common Skew.

Do Nothing Club is a collaborative design project curated by Ben Gabriel and Julian Trompeter based in New York City, focused on exploring the potential of connection through design, drawing inspiration out of the city they're from, inclusive of music, art, and performance. Do Nothing Club aims to deliver limited merchandise, unique designs, and one-of-a-kind experiences. We discovered Ben and Juju after spotting a New Yorker article that highlighted the merch they designed for Bonny's, one of Brooklyn's buzziest restaurants led by celebrated chef Calvin Ang. The use of their bold design, their provocative play with messaging, and their creative philosophy is uniquely translated through the clever and creative merch they create. From designs for New York City's most famous dim sum restaurant to doing styling work for Vogue magazine, for celebrity chef Marcus Samuelsson, and many more. Do Nothing Club's Ben and Juju are two designers to watch. We love discovering emerging talent as they have a lot to teach us because of their perspective on what's trending. But more importantly, they combine trends with a progressive aesthetic that is woven into their merch and design craft. One example is when we talk about using straight-line copy on merch, as in Juju's words, Small-scale storytelling. Hey, before our episode, I want to mention this, that SKUCon, our in-person event held on Sunday, January 8th in Las Vegas, is sold out. But this year we're presenting SKUCon Virtual on Thursday, January 19th. You can enjoy from the comfort of your home or office to hear Michael Bungay Stanier talk about The Five Question Leader, Nick Sassaras talk about Web3 and NFTs, and interviews and stories from the industry's most maverick thinkers. SKUCon is a great way to kick off your year with your team in a highly collaborative fashion. So stay tuned as we will be posting on how to register you and your team very soon, or head on over to skucon.com to join the waitlist now. Today's episode is brought to you by CommonSKU, the work-from-anywhere platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling both distributors and suppliers to process more orders easily and dramatically grow your sales. To learn more, visit commonscue.com. Now on to our chat with these two very talented designers, Ben and Juju. And what I encourage you to listen for is how these emerging artists think about merch and how it can be applied to your customers. It's fascinating.

Here's our chat. Well, let's start our conversation by providing some context for the listening community so they can better understand your work. First, the Brooklyn restaurant Bonnie's. There was a review in The New Yorker that highlighted Bonnie's and the chef and owner Calvin Eng's bold use of MSG as a primary ingredient in all their food, proudly so. And it's become a trademark. So, so much so that through you, you created a hoodie that has the Bonnie's logo on the left chest with a trout image, very cleverly embroidered, by the way, to go through the pockets and the tiny words MSG 88 embroidered on it. Sorry to elaborate for our listening audience, but that's basically what it was, which is a MSG88 is the LLC for Bonnie. So long story short, when Calvin first called you to do this project, what did you talk about? Why was it important to him?

Well, I think from, from the MSG perspective, I think he realized that through food or whatever his craft is, which is cooking, that he could sort of change the perception on something that, you know, people, for whatever reasons, associate MSG as something that's like unhealthy or whatever when it really is just—

right, anything.

Yeah, yeah, much so. I think he noticed that he could change people's perception about that through his cooking, which is kind of similar to what we try to do through design and things like that.

Well, I remember first, like, the, the merch came about— like, Ben called me after because he is really good friends with Calvin, and he said, you know, they want me— they want us to design a second piece of merchandise. After we had previously done a collaboration long sleeve with Bonnie's and Hennessy, which did really well and sold out in a day. And I remember he said, Ben told me specifically, it was like about this trout dish, which is like the entire fried fish. And then it's cut, you know, with the, well, I wouldn't call them fine pieces, but it's cut into like the round, those round pieces. And that's when Ben had the idea to like kind of make it, you know, in the pockets.. And then I remember specifically towards the end, the design process took a long time to just get it right because the idea was already solidified. But then at the end, once we had finished the fish, the fish has the vibe is complete and the pocket section is done. I remember he's like, oh, I had these ideas for put MSG on and whatever. What do you think? And it was a type of thing where you always want to add more, more details. Like, like, you don't necessarily need to go overboard, but we don't really— I think innately we can't— we don't really do that. Um, so it was the type of thing where it's like, oh yeah, like, throw that in. And then he's like, oh well, it's also the company's LLC. And it's like, nah, this is the, the lore that you can kind of do, like the small-scale storytelling.

Yeah, exactly. We just wanted to— if that makes any sense, make something that highlights what they're doing at Bonnie's and It's just very natural. Like Calvin is somebody we've been friends since we were like 12 or 13. So it was very much just like an open back and forth. I think maybe I texted him like, hey, what do you think about this idea? You know, just was like messing around with the pockets and, you know, it was just sort of open, right?

Back and forth in industry and just the branded merch industry in general, manufacturers, you know, we always talk about straight line copy. But what I love what you just said, Juju, was you called it small-scale storytelling, because it might just be straight-line copy, it might just be copy, but what it is— MSG88 represents a whole lot of a story that's being unpacked there. So you went through multiple iterations on this. It sold out. It became a bestseller. And I think in part to this beautiful design, but also in part to sort of the, the rebellious nature of it, right? Like the in-your-face kind of this is, this is not only safe for you, but this is something we're going to flaunt and be proud of.

I think culturally, um, the MSG thing in America is also like, it's kind of a loaded term too. And like, I'm, I'm a quarter Vietnamese myself, and so I kind of grew up with both sides of the MSG where I heard in my family, like, they would, like, my aunt would have it in her house, and then my mom would be like, yo, like, don't have too much MSG because it's still bad for you, whatever. But then like, you see, you see it kind of be leveraged in arguments that may be beyond the food itself. And so that's also where you can reclaim that. And since it's for a genuine project that's trying to honor our friends' Cantonese heritage, it's like we can help further solidify the MSG thing by— the word is a strong tool at the end of the day. And like you said, straight line copy is a very small piece of text, but it's just the little number, it's like the little codes and numbers that, you know, kind of make up your favorite thing on, I don't, I'm not sure, like on like a technical level or like a, like a North Face jacket might have a crazy like numbered series jacket and like you, you, you, it just adds to the kind of alpine vibe of it, if that makes any sense.

Small details can do a lot when there's sort of a story behind them.

Yeah, yeah. What? Yeah. Small details there that are imbued with some deep meaning or some conflict or some concept. The takeaway is there might be either some conflict or maybe something to celebrate that might be brought out in a very subtle way. And it's become like this. It's almost become like this experience that the audience has that becomes a part of the community. They're like, yeah, I love this. I love what they did with this. So you also designed for Nam Wah. Did I pronounce that right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. The first dim sum restaurant in New York City, founded in 1920. You not only did merch for them, you did signage, but the unique challenge was doing so in a way that reflected their original aesthetic. Because, like, what's the product or products you're most proud of having developed for them?

I think, um, the products I'm most proud of are just like the little signs in the restaurant. We designed like the CPR signs and the signs in the bathroom that say, you know, like, wash your hands before returning to work. Like all those code signs that are, you know, mandated by the city that have to be there, we sort of redesigned those. And I think it's cool. I like those just because it's sort of like a design that those signs people might not really look twice at when they're— when there's not really much design put into them, but we can kind of we did it in a way where now people are looking at that and, you know, like I saw there's an Instagram that posts interesting signs that they see and like they reposted the signs from Nama and I was just like, you know, didn't really say who did it or whatever, but I just think it's cool that that's something that all the people that go into the restaurant are seeing and it's kind of just like a little like if you know, you know type of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Wasn't the challenge you had to design this within the aesthetic? Like they're known for keeping to this 1920s aesthetic or something around the branding. Was that the unique challenge with that one?

It was definitely a challenge, and they were also kind of like wanted us to mix our style with their aesthetic, which was— is always a challenge when you're doing something like that. You want to sort of keep true to what got them to where they are. But yeah, so it was just a lot of back and forth with the people there sort of sending ideas, and it ended up— I mean, they liked it. They're still in the stores today, which is really cool.

That's the biggest testament of all.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true.

It was, yeah, it was at the time I was working there, um, with Calvin in the kitchen, like doing dishes, busboy sort of thing. So that was like the jump start to getting into design because it was something that we were doing for fun.

Very cool.

Yeah, before then, and then they were just like, oh, you designed, you want to take a shot at this? And sort of it snowballed from there.

That's how the best businesses start, incubated inside another experience. Yeah.

Fantastic.

Um, you— one of my favorite projects that you have worked on recently, you recently did a styling job for Vogue magazine for chef Marcus Samuelsson, who I'm a huge fan of. I read his biography, um, uh, follow him. I've been to his restaurant in Harlem. Um, what— tell me a little bit about that project.

How did that come about? Well, I have some Swedish roots myself, like my, my mother.

It's—

my family history is very complicated, but essentially I got some family that grew up in Stockholm And so my mother kind of like established herself out there when she was young and she has many friends still over there and a lot of them work in fashion. And so we had a family friend that, you know, she showed interest in Do Nothing kind of like on some, you know, family, more of a family kind of thing. And she— but it was many months ago. She asked me to kind of like do a model job for her. And then I happened to bring the clothes that day too, because it was like, oh yeah, she wanted to see them because she's like a really cool, stylist that is working internationally. Shout out to Angelina. If you ever hear this, thank you for everything. And then, you know, one day, kind of out of the blue, she literally messaged me and was like, hey, like, I'm going to be styling Marcus Samuelsson, you know, like, and I know who he is because if you have any ties to Sweden, you know, there's only X number of like really, really famous internationally known Swedish people, like from the modern times. And he's like top 3. And so it was like a huge, it was a huge like wow moment where like, you know, when you're first working, like when me and Ben, like, like coming from like the Namwah stage where it was like I knew Ben and we would do merchandise work together, but it was like prior to the place where we are now. Like it's the kind of thing where, you know, you look, if you were able to step away and look objectively, it's like, wow, these are the main, the moments that that we were looking like I've been kind of working towards, but like you can't just like ask for them. They're going to fall out of the sky kind of. And so, you know, we had to scramble to get everything right for Marcus. And, you know, the, I think it is going to be published in October or November of like Vogue Scandinavia. So I can't wait to see it. But I do know we got, we got a shirt that we made in like 2017, like this like sample shirt that, you know, I don't think it'll even be reproduced, but it was something really special that like we wanted him to keep it. They gave it back, but we really wanted to honor him, you know, but it was a huge, huge like honor to be able to style an icon like that because like what a guy, like his, the legacy that he's leaving behind right now is really, is really significant. And like he's a really cool like modern day like, like cooking world icon.

Yeah, absolutely. What's your favorite— for both of you, what's your favorite merch piece you've created, either for a client or for do-nothing.nyc/shop, which we'll link to in the show notes?

Um, yeah, so we recently made this knit sweater, um, that's like woven, that sort of— love it.

Yeah, yeah, colorful one.

Yeah, I have it.

It's paying like tribute to just like, yeah, I don't know, taking the train, like how— that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. But I think every sort of thing that we're doing, because we don't have like, we don't come from a sort of fashion background or something like that. It's like, all right, let's try and make something that we don't know how to do and then learn how to do it. And so that's like the most recent thing. We didn't really have any background in weaving or something like that, but we sort of figured it out and that's cool. The results came out looking beautiful. So that's like what I'm really stoked on now.

Yeah, that's cool.

Juju, what about you?

Same?

No, no, same for me. That sweater, like, it's simply because if it had been, you know, a few months ago, it would have been the puffer jacket, which we may or may not touch on later. But it's like, like Ben said, it's like we don't come from like the couture background. So it's kind of like, I wouldn't say it's like daunting, but it's like, it's a challenge to think like, like, damn, like, how do you make this from zero when you don't really know? It's like, we know how to, we know what we have to do, but what exactly do you do to make it right as well? And so it's extremely satisfying and fulfilling to receive like the sample, you know, and even if it's not right, it's like, wow, like a tangible object that you worked on with your friend. Like, you know, like that's a really, really cool feeling that like I chase it. I'm not going to lie to you. And so this, this knit was like the first knit that we did. And it took, you know, it took a little while for us to find the right people to make it for us and everything. And like, get it all rolling. But it's like the type of thing that's so like overwhelmingly satisfying when you get— when you start to get it going that like, it motivates you to keep challenging yourself in that regard. And that's how all of our clothes really came about. It's like really just a challenge of, hey, we, we come from a t-shirt, like t-shirt kind of timing. And then it's like, but, but like, we both know that together we have the taste to kind of go way beyond that and like the vision as well to kind of, you know, pursue something greater than, than just, I don't know, something, something kind of like 2D that we want to go beyond that and challenge ourselves every day with design. And it's also the most fun part, to be quite honest with you. Like, that's the best part of anything.

And that's how growth happens, right? Michael Bungay Stanier has a book about goal setting and he talks about the two of the most important aspects is doing something that's thrilling and daunting. They both can be at the same time. And that's where that growth occurs. Speaking of this topic around merch and that sweater, I was thinking of the puffer jacket, the colorful puffer jacket, which we'll get to in a minute. But merch has become a really powerful self-expression tool and has reached a height of popularity that I've never seen. Why do you think it's so important to individuals and brands, Juju?

I think firstly, the nature of the world right now is so much of it revolves around branding, whether like, whether it's an individual or an actual brand or platform. It's like the, I think the nature of communication systems require you to brand yourself to kind of like, not necessarily stand out, but like, and just in order to reach audiences that you need, that are relevant to you, if that makes sense. And this is like the first facet that you can tap into as a consumer in order to feel connected to something bigger than yourself, if that makes sense. So like, everybody makes merch, like you said. And it's, it's like, in a world where our purchases and our data and stuff kind of is a reflection of at least partly who we are out in the world and like the public sphere, then, like, the reflection of your clothing purchases would also, you know, play a large part in not only what it means to you and what you are kind of projecting for the outside world, but also like, how they, how the outside world might see you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben, how about you?

You want to add to that? Um, yeah, I think you pretty much covered it. It's just sort of like, um, you know, people can sort of also find, like, show what they're interested in through things like that and sort of find other people. Like, there's a lot of times where people will come up to me based on what I'm wearing and, you know, you strike up a conversation and you just find like common ground in that way. Yeah, I think that's like an important part of it. A lot of, like Juju was saying, a lot of stuff, a lot of people's sort of personalities and stuff now relies around what brands they use, what for cooking, for all, everything is branded, you know. So I think companies are starting to realize that, you know, regardless of what industry they're in, people that like their products want to sort of let other people know that, you know, they know about it and things like that. So I think that's why with things like, you know, restaurant merch now is something that we got into. I never really saw too much of like restaurant merch where there was like thoughtfulness put into it until more recently. I think a lot of brands are starting to realize the importance of it.

Yeah, it used to be only the kitschy tourist, the tourist type t-shirts, which aged, I think they aged very well, but it's a different ballgame now.

Yeah, totally different ballgame. Brands are realizing that they can make cool stuff, um, and people want to wear that more rather than just, you know, like the thrift store sort of— yeah, that like merch was back in the day.

This is a great point. It's almost like you're designing for the deep fans versus the tourist who's just coming through to grab the, the memento. Um, you're designing for people who like get the brand, connect with the brand, and want to identify with the brand.

Yeah.

Let me, let me ask you this, and we'll stay on with you, Ben, for a minute, and then we'll go to Juju. How do you think about design when it comes to merch? And I know I'm asking a very big question because most artists and creatives, when you ask them to talk about their process— Bob Dylan was a great example of this— he would just shut down in interviews. He would block. He would, he wouldn't, you know, because it's difficult, right? Yeah. Just follow your instinct when you design. Do you have a process that you can loosely define? Like, what is it for you, Ben?

Yeah, this was one of the hard— this was one of the questions that when we were going through them, we were sad. Yeah. Like, what do we actually do? I think it's sort of is kind of like a, like our process is like almost like an ice sculpture thing where we'll say like a brand approaches us and is like, hey, you know, you have creative control over this. We want, because like a lot of people come to us and are like, hey, we want you to take the reins, which is great, but it also presents a lot of challenges when they're kind of just like, do your thing. So it kind of is like an ice sculpture thing where we have just like this big block of ice, whatever, all these ideas, all these different things, and kind of throughout the process it's chiseled down into like what it ends up being, you know. So a lot of times it'll be like, oh, you know, this idea that we had doesn't really work, but maybe when we're figuring out that it doesn't work, we come up with a new idea or things like that. So it's a lot of just like You know, we have a sort of a bigger picture idea and just working away, chipping away at it to get to— yeah, I love it— the final product where it's not saying too much. Um, yeah, and just gets the point across exactly.

The analogy is wonderful though, from— you're basically sculpting, right? Yeah, chipping away things.

Any comment before you want to move on? Um, yeah, no, it's, it's the back and forth, like the discussion, because like there's multi— multiple levels of discussion and like compromise, you could say. So it's like me and Ben are going back and forth because usually the ice block, like the block itself, will be the first person's idea. And it's like we do go instinctively in our process where like we both trust each other's gut idea where it's like, oh wow, your first idea probably is the good one. But then we're going to have to go back and forth with logistics, with the client, with reality, with whatever the factors may be. And that's where you get like that final, you know, outcome, the, the, the ice sculpture in question, right?

When we were talking, um, earlier, I— one, one quote I actually wrote down from, from— I think it was you, Juju, but it may have been you, Ben. It's— here's quote: bootlegging. So I— something you love to talk about was the phrase bootlegging, borrowing ideas, right? Bootlegging stuff as art and provocativeness, and the idea of taking sampling with music and applying it to merch. Um, this leads me to a question to ask you both: where do you find your influences and inspiration when you're designing merch? Like, what are some of the filters that come into your head in your normal course of just life and living that influence you as a designer?

Juju, number one is growing up in New York. You're going to be— you have New York City youth culture that is like, it's pervasive. And like, depending on who you are, like, it sticks with you. So like, for me, it's all very still with me. And so firstly, we have like things like, I don't know, it's like the jackets that people wear, like the puffer jacket thing, like that's a New Yorker thing. It would only come about because of that, for example. But then certainly, I think a lot of performance gear like Nike, ACG, or like the hiking brands, I think right now has like, has been a larger influence for us specifically because even though it's for hiking, like urban, like urban demographics, we're a lot of stuff with pockets because, you know, we're carrying different things. You got your phone and everything. And it's like, it's a type of thing where you can take utilitarian design, like, you know, a lot of that stuff and kind of mesh it with like, the more poetic stuff like Comme des Garçons, like early 2000s stuff when they had all the poems on the clothes and stuff. It's not really something that we do with a lot. We don't do a lot of text designs, but kind of the idea of like the playfulness of it or the idea of the the challenging you with ideas or forcing you to read something that maybe you wouldn't read if it was in a book or something like that. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think, yeah, those are like the top 3 kind of like general influences, at least in my day to day.

That's really interesting. It's an interesting blend of street style and high art that you just talked about. That's a beautiful conglomeration of of like this, this melting pot of ideas.

Thank you. And it's, it's ultimately kind of an allegory of being in New York and being from New York anyways, right? Because the juxtaposition of highs and lows is everywhere, is every day, and it's all the time. So yeah, it's only right to kind of celebrate what you enjoy from both. And like, we only kind of design stuff for ourselves anyways, if that makes any sense. Like we had clients and whatever, but it's like, what would I be— what am I going to be proud to wear outside?

Yeah, I think, yeah, one of the things that I've noticed is like you can design for what you think the general public will like, like people will like, and that is a lot harder. It's a lot easier when you say like, all right, I'm going to design for me, design something that I like. And then, you know, there's people, there's people out there that have similar interests and like the same thing. So when you design for yourself, those people will sort of find it, you know, like when it's out there in the world, they can, and then they gravitate to it and it means even more when they come across it.

Yeah, that's a brilliant comment for both of you because that's tying together the idea that you can't really design for a persona or a conglomerate. You can only design for an individual, and the closer you get to that individual, the better you can craft the experience. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Totally. Last question, and I'm, I Could talk to you guys all day, particularly around this whole creative process and design. What advice, Ben, would you give to fellow entrepreneurs who are trying to build a solid business around creative design? The reason I ask this too is because I think now it is very much a design-forward game for anyone, whether you're in corporate merch, whether you're in entertainment merch, whether you're in sports merch, outdoor merch. It's a, it's a design-forward game. Ben, what would your advice be to fellow entrepreneurs?

I would say sort of to trust, you know, trust your design instincts, trust your gut, and sort of, um, try to tell your story because, you know, everybody has a story that's interesting. Um, and when you're trying to sort of fit into a box of like, all right, this is what design looks like nowadays. Um, I'm trying to fit into that. You can sort of lose, you know, the personal effect of it. And, um, you know, so, and then it kind of just becomes another design in the bunch. So I would say to just, you know, stick, tell stories with your designs and sort of stick to what you know. And like we were just talking about, there's other people out there, you know, with the internet and stuff like that. Once you put your stuff out there, there's other people that will have similar interests, like the same things, and it'll resonate with them a lot more than if you're trying to make something that every— you think that everybody will like. And then I would also say sort of find like a creative community around you and like find people that you enjoy working with and that you are just friends with and sort of try and build something with them because it can go a lot further that way.

Love that. Ira Glass talks about trusting your taste and that's what you're talking about there.

Yeah. Yeah. That's something that takes a while.

So I would say it does take a while.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Great point. If I could talk to myself 5 years ago, that would be the one thing I'd be like, you know, just trust your instincts, trust your taste.

Yes. Don't worry. Great advice. Juju, how about you?

You'll have the last word. Well, trusting your taste was literally the word, the phrase I was going to use. You know, shout out Ira Glass, but I wasn't even thinking of him. But he definitely was a man who knew what he was talking about. I think above all, you have to be about what you do in terms of like, even if the client that you're designing for, it has nothing to do with your interests or whatever, like in some way, shape, or form, you have to imbue your work with like your true energy or else it won't come across as authentic. And then, then nobody knows what will happen. But it's like one thing that we can't help but doing is to do what we want to do because like I literally I tell Ben all the time, like, one, one of my main tests is like, I don't want to feel like an idiot when I show my work to somebody, you know, because I was like, when you, you can see your work with yourself and with your team, but it's like, how does it, how do you feel about it when you're presenting it in an outward manner? And it's like, you, only you know what you put into it and if you should be proud of it or whatever. But it's like, if you don't approach that, um, seriously with the intent of like doing the right job for somebody as a designer, then it's going to be more difficult. But if you can just always stick to what you believe in, I think the world has shown that like any style can be popular, you know, like anything can work. But it's really about that level of like passion and stuff that you put behind it. Firstly, that will like light the fire. And I think also what Ben said about the team is essential. Like you're definitely not going to be doing this by yourself. So find the people that you believe in, that believe in you. And that, like you said, that you could be like, ideally, yeah, you want to be friends with your team. Like, there's no question that there, to me, there's no greater glory either. Like, that's the ultimate dream. Like, yeah, I mean, from childhood, you know, so it's like, keep, it's like that kind of saying, like, never grow up, you know, like, keep that same, keep that same childlike wonder about your art and see how everything else falls into place. But as so long as you never let go of that, like, You will find riches one way or the other, whether it's in your heart or in your wallet. It's going to—

something's going to give. I love it. Sorry, can I add one more? Yeah, please. Like we were talking about earlier, I just remembered it. Sort of, I would say to somebody starting out, appreciate the journey or whatever, the small things. A lot of times you can get lost in the bigger picture and stuff like that. But I would say The small things, you know, having your design hanging up in a restaurant that you like, or, you know, you make merch and then you are walking on the street and see somebody wearing it. And when you're further along in the path, you get the less sort of exciting that might get when you know how you have a bunch of deadlines and stuff like that. But like Juju was saying, like, try to keep that childlike sort of wonder towards things and just, you know, appreciate the journey because when you zoom out of the bigger picture and look at like all those steps, you kind of realize you can see like where you're coming from, where you're going, and it just makes it special.

Yeah, I love it, guys. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed chatting with you both and I want to catch up with you later down the road so we can catch up with all these new stories and new designs that we're creating for all these amazing people. Certainly. We'll talk to you soon, my friends.

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SKU Cast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing to SKU Cast on iTunes or to our blog at community.commsku.com. Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening.