Episode 255: CRO Secrets to Driving Sales Success

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. Skucast is the official podcast of Common Skew. In today's episode of the Skucast, we're bringing you a live session from SkuCon 2023, and it's called CRO Secrets to Driving Sales Success. The Chief Revenue Officer role is a fairly new role for the promotional products industry, but it's been a critical success in many other industries. The CRO focuses on how to align all parts of your business— sales, marketing, and service toward a common goal: growth and profit. The CRO is also often the head sales coach, providing coaching advice for sales professionals to help them perform at their optimum level. In today's Skewcast with 3 of the industry's top sales leaders, we'll explore how to be a better sales coach for you and your team, how to create more alignment between your sales and marketing initiatives, how to think holistically about driving revenue across multiple client verticals, and ways in which suppliers and distributors can work better together toward growth. Our panel is hosted by Catherine Graham, Commenscue CEO, and our guests today are Trina Bicknell, CRO of HPG, Sam Cates, Chief Sales Officer for Specter and Co., and Holly Brown, the Chief Revenue Officer at Polyconcept. Today's episode is brought to you by Commenscue, the work-from-anywhere platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling you to process more orders, dramatically grow your sales. To learn more, visit Commscue.com. Now here's our panel recorded live from SKUCON 2023, CRO Secrets to Driving Sales Success.

So we've got a power panel here today to talk about sales. So Holly, I'm going to have you kick us off because the CRO role is something that is kind of unique to this industry or new to this industry, rather. It's been around in tech and other industries for some time now, but it's only in the past kind of year or two that we've been hearing kind of more about the CRO role. So can you speak specifically as to what it, what it, what is the CRO position and why does it matter to the industry?

It's actually a new role for us as well. And my role was really created to make sure that we're bringing together all of the commercial functions within the organization and to make sure that they're in lockstep between sales, marketing, customer service, and our strategy. Somebody actually said it earlier this morning just around the symbiotic relationship that has to exist between strategy and culture. And that's really what my role is designed to do. So I've been focused on building a team that I did the first year that I was here. And that team is really all about customer centricity and ensuring that we are focused on making it easier for all of our distributors to help their end clients and that everything we do is synergistic and that we don't have any silos in those organizations.

Sam, you've got a unique perspective having been in sales leadership roles across the— in all aspects of the industry. What does a successful partnership between supplier and distributor look like, and how do you see the advent of the supplier CRO role enabling suppliers to work more effectively with distributors?

Hi everyone. Yeah, I, listen, I was on the distributor side a million years ago, which, you know, it was actually probably 15 years ago, but that might as well be a million years ago, so I will never even begin to think that I understand what your world is like, but I did have a really great experience working with Commonsku and many of you and really digging into your processes and how you, how you need to operate and what do you need to be successful. And so that was, that was really helpful to me in this role in how I think a little bit deeper. I think about your systems, I think about your processes, I think about um, how you're really looking to create more efficiencies. And I think you need your suppliers to be part of that discussion. And I also have, um, learned the power of building really authentic relationships where you will be able to come to me and I will be able to come to you and we can be brutally honest. And I'll pick on Brian for a minute, but we talked about something just recently and he said, I would love to know from Spectre How many orders we didn't give you that were complete last year? How many of our orders weren't easy for you to put in? And I was like, that's a partnership, right? That's honesty. That's where you really get to the good stuff. And so to build better relationships, you have to have that kind of honesty and that transparency, and you need the relationships where Brian can come to me and want that information, and I can give that to him. Or another customer that recently said, I opened my laptop. Here's how much we did in drinkware. Across all suppliers. I really like you, Sam. I like what your team is doing. I wanna divert more of that to you. How do we do that? And that is where you get, uh, we're not gonna win a relationship with everybody, but we're gonna win with hopefully the right people who want to share that information and want us to share that information back. And that starts with building intimate relationships in a professional way, um, um, with our customers, but not everyone. Stop thinking that we can have a relationship with everyone. You can't, but you can have meaningful relationships that matter.

Trina, you've been in the CRO role for a year and a half. You were formerly the senior vice president of sales. For you, what's the distinction between the CRO and VP sales role?

So when I was brought on for senior vice president, that was when 10x had just acquired HubPen. And at that time, they knew they were gonna do a bunch of acquisitions. We thought we were gonna do 2 or 3. We're up to 9, I believe. So and about to announce a 10th actually tomorrow. So some big news there. Scoop from the stage. Spoiler alert. But, and at that time it was really to integrate the sales teams, add some structure, and to really build that sales force. Well, today with the CRO role, that sales force, we have this incredible team now at this point, and that my role has really become more of a strategic part of the leadership team and to really sort of now set the directions, set the priorities, keep setting those priorities because they change all the time and really making sure that the obstacles are removed from their way. Because the reality is, if, you know, we can think that we want to have the best sales plan and meet the budget and make sure that, you know, we're getting here. But if we're not delighting our customers and making sure that orders are getting out on time and that orders are correct and those that those problems are not coming up for our distributors, we're not going to be successful. So I really feel like my job is to clear the path for my people.

Holly, how have you seen sales and marketing work in tandem differently with each other with your role currently?

Yeah, I think a number of ways. You know, when I actually joined the company, I joined during the pandemic and the world was chaotic. And, you know, first thing I did was went on a couple of different virtual ride-alongs with with our customers and our account leaders, and we have some great account leaders, but I found them talking about the next new product. It comes in 10 different colors, and I just thought, that has got to be a snore for all of you to hear that pitch over and over again. And there was nothing differentiated about that. So really embarked on building the right toolset and a new playbook for the sellers, but also bringing marketing into that critical path in terms of how do we bring the data insights that are, you unique and differentiated to bring some real consultative value to each of you in terms of how we can help you increase your sales. And so, um, building that partnership between sales and marketing has been paramount for us, and we're seeing, um, certainly the benefits of that in the last few years.

Salesforce takes a fairly intimate approach with their sales philosophy, a one-to-one connection between your reps and accounts. Why you've chosen to kind of buck the trend around geography, which has been the more traditional way of kind of organizing sales teams. So talk about that.

When I was being trained by Rob, who's the CEO, it was like my third day on the job and I didn't know anything and thought I knew things that I didn't actually know. And he said, we were looking at the sales team and he said, I'm sorry to swear, but he said, fuck geography. And I was like, what? What does that mean? And he's like, I don't, I don't care. I don't want you to build a team like that. You know, I don't, I don't want that. And I, He didn't really expand, so I had to figure out what does fuck geography mean? So what fuck geography means to me now is I have worked for, as you know, supplier companies in the past where the, the leadership, the ownership was 4 appointments a day, 4 days a week, you know, log it in the CRM, blah, blah, blah. And what I would ride along on those trips and see was that you had a great relationship over here, but because you had to stay busy, you had to see 4 or 5 other people kind of around. And that's an incredible waste of every kind of resource imaginable. And so I helped to build out a team that they may, um, do most of their work virtually. They may get on a plane to do an all-day meeting with a customer, just one, because that customer is worth it and that relationship is worth it. And then spend the evening and go to dinner or take their team out or, you know, have a bartender come in and make it fun. I mean, this is such a fun business and it's not supposed to be so transactional.. And so that fuck geography thing to me meant that I could kind of blow the barn doors open a bit instead of building this kind of old school sort of territory, territory. That's my territory rep, that's my territory rep. We don't have that. We have strategic account managers and Ashley is sitting there and she's one and she's got accounts in 6 states. Now there's a little method to the madness. I mean, obviously from a resource and, and cost, you can't make it so there's, there's a little bit of, of thought to that, but it doesn't mean that because she lives in Toronto, she should only have Toronto-based accounts. It may mean that she has one or two great Toronto-based accounts, but that's it. If that doesn't fit with her personality, if those people aren't the right kind of specter type relationship, I'd rather put her in front of the customers who will appreciate her, understand her, and she will appreciate, understand them. So that's how I interpreted fuck geography. And it's, um, it's different and it, but I think it's, it's worked well and it's helped us build stronger relationships.

Trina, something you said before about the supplier-distributor relationship stuck with me. That is, you're looking to build more experiences with your distributor customers, which is more than just writing a big check in return for business. What, what did you mean? Rebates, or do you have an example, or what, how your thinking is around that?

So for me, that means actually creating an experience. So for example, everyone will see at the show, we're going to have a Mixie Spa Spot. And that area is somewhere where there will be a couple of masseuses and they'll be giving chair massages. And at the end they will receive a spa kit.

Everyone's writing down their booth.

I bet you are. It's actually a separate booth from our regular booth. But why are we doing that? For a couple of reasons. You know, one, I want distributors every time they think of personal care to think of Mixie, right? So if they have that experience, they think of it. But More importantly, I want them when their customer comes to them and says, I want a customer engagement idea, I want an employee engagement idea. I want them to say, have you thought of doing a spa day? You could do a spa day, bring in a couple of masseuses, and then give out these great spa kits. So now you're not just pitching a product, you're pitching the whole thing. You're giving them the entire idea and they are, wow, okay, I'm gonna go with you because you're actually giving me the entire thing. So I think creating those experiences, we're doing a little bit of that with Batch and Bodega and with tastings as well. I think that's a really important thing for suppliers to be doing for the distributors.

Holly, as you've now had a few years into the business, because you came from outside the industry, what parts of the selling process have you been able to notice as perhaps kind of weaker and completely change or overhaul that model at PCNA?

100%, the confluence of digital sales and marketing. You know, certainly with most of our workforces now being hybrid and in many cases fully remote, I think that digital selling has never been more relevant. And so we've done a lot of things to try and double down on this effort. We've created a webinar platform, different podcasts, other syndicated data and so forth that helps be turnkey for all of you to use with your end customers and really built marketing customized, you know, tools around that. So we have today platforms that not only are in sustainability with our ProudPath platform, but also just our customizable lookbooks and other things that you can use. And they're very turnkey. We build them for you and really are focused on that digital sell-through, through digital selling means.

Sam, with— and we were speaking before about the kind of, you know, change in geography and reps not necessarily being on the road kind of all the time, that how have you found kind of in the post-pandemic environment, how has sales coaching changed? Kind of with your team, you know, being remote and them not necessarily always being in front of customers?

I mean, I love that session this morning. I think sales coaching doesn't have to be this, you know, you have to hire an outside person and take a whole day and do a whole session. It can be done in micro ways. I think I have done some of the things from today of just having that one-on-one touchpoint with the people on your team and saying, How are you doing? How are you feeling about things? What, what do you need from me? How can I help you? Um, and I learned a lot more today, which I, I hope to put into practice. But I think in all the years that I've been managing sales teams, what's been the most impactful and what I've put more into play now than ever before is having them coach one another. Um, I have some great knowledge. I don't have all the knowledge. Um, and so we've implemented, you know, we have Slack. They, when I got here, it was a pretty fractured sales team, pretty distant from one another, kind of a little bit more siloed. And we just had our kind of annual meeting, and maybe I'm speaking from my own perspective, but we did like a, a dinner party at my home. We did it in Orlando. I mean, just, we went to Disney. This team is so different today than they were a year ago when I started, and they lean on each other. We are gonna have them travel with each other. So have one fly to another person's area and go on the road with them and reverse that., they share their wins with one another. Everyone celebrates that. Um, they, um, post like anything. If they did a great presentation and something happened from it, they share it amongst each other. So the, the, it's not all gonna come from the sales leadership. It's going to come from them and, and their unique differences. And, and I also feel that with coaching, I think in my past I more would say, these are the KPIs, this is what we're trying to do. You need to kind of be like this. And now I want them to be their unique selves. So if I have one that's a little bit more introverted, you know, or maybe doesn't love the big flashy type things, then, then we need to learn from that and look at his style or her style. If I have someone that loves to have fun and, and is just the most outgoing, which I do in California, the most outgoing, vibrant person ever, I don't wanna squash that. I want her to, to shine and, and do that. But that doesn't mean that someone else needs to take that same approach. So. I think coaching is every day, all day in micro ways. It isn't an annual meeting. It isn't an hour-long, you know, outside speaker. It's every single one-on-one interaction you have with your team is a coaching opportunity in some way. Um, and don't waste it. You know, they will tell you gold if you just listen to them and then let them learn from each other. Let them coach from each other. And that's even with your own teams on the distributor side. They have so much to share if you give them the platform to do that.

Trina, HPG's gone through many acquisitions over the most recent years. Yep. You have 55 multi-line reps who report directly to you and 14 direct reports that are national account managers. You're likely managing a wide range of experiences and approaches when it comes to those salespeople.

What do you think is the chief role of a leader supporting sales?

I think some of what I said before, you know, sort of setting priorities for them. Removing the obstacles so that they can actually do what they need to do. You know, I'm pretty lucky that even though I have a large team, they're pretty well experienced in the industry. And I have some really superstars, Mike Simczak, Nick Latorre. These are, you know, people that know what they're doing. So that helps. But I agree that a lot of it is helping them to mentor each other as well, that you have some folks that are great and are really organized, and then you have other folks that are just incredible presenters. So knowing How to put them together so that they can mentor each other and help each other and grow from that, I think is what's important. So I spend a lot of time, I really believe in, you know, after every one-on-one, I typically say, is there anything else you need? Is there anything else I can do? Because I really think that is how you learn, whether it's, you know, some of the changes we've made in the business have come directly from asking either a multi-line rep or one of our own associates, What do you think? How should we change this? What's not working? Or what do we need to add? What gets in the way of you actually selling more product and moving from there? So I think that is what, you know, you, you gain real growth from that.

Holly, PCNA has invested a significant amount in promo standards and EPOs, and within a month after turning on the beta with common SKU, 50% of purchase orders were sent by EPO into directly into PCNA's ERP. Which is an incredible trajectory in adoption. David Nicholson coined the phrase distributor enablement. Do you think we're at a tipping point with tech and sales for those that have invested in making their clients' kind of processes easier? And how do you see technology kind of changing our landscape and sales revenue over the next 2 to 3 years?

Yeah, I do. And thank you for the 50%. I think that's phenomenal. And hopefully you guys are all reaping the benefits of that because it's quicker order processing. You move to the front of the line, it's transparency in your orders. There's just a whole lot of efficiencies that are gained with that. This is all part of digital transformation and it's a core tenet of our PCNA business. And so, yes, I do. I think we are absolutely at a crucial tipping point. And I think those that are more digitally enabled, those that are providing turnkey digital solutions, integrations, but also through other means and digital technology and transformation are going to be the winners and they're going to leave the rest behind as we move forward. So we're very focused on our digital tools and making sure that we're providing digital distributor sales enablement. I'm going to tell David about that one when I get back. And, but just, yeah, absolutely. But making sure that they're turnkey to make your lives a lot easier.

So we're going to switch gears into a bit of a lightning round. I guess your thoughts on some different topics. So forecasting, we are potentially facing uncertainty. There's a lot of, a lot of noise, a lot of chatter, as we alluded to kind of in the, in the opening remarks, potentially headwinds, who knows. How are you guys thinking about forecasting and what kind of, what are you building into your, your process kind of around this uncertainty? Katrina, why don't you kick off?

So I also don't believe in recession. There might be a slow session maybe right now, a little bit that we're experiencing. But for us, the way that we're going against those sort of headwinds is we looked at product development a year ago and said, what can we do from a product development perspective to make sure that we have products that are going to be recession-proof, that are in the right price point so that we're ensuring that we're going to help the distributor through that recession. So for me, we're forecasting more conservatively than we did, you know, with our growth last year when we had a tremendous year and we're back to 2019 numbers. But for us, we're not— you know, we're forecasting to have growth and to make sure that we're helping that distributor through the slow session. So I think it's all a matter of what products you have that the projects aren't going to go away. The budgets might get slimmer, right? So they might say, I still want to do 100 of these kits, but instead of having $80 to spend, I have $50 to spend. So it's all about what you select in the kit, what items you have so that you can actually meet that budget. And that's how we're approaching that forecast. Sam?

We're not slashing anything. We have the probably the biggest growth target this year that the company's had in history. We're opening a new facility here in Vegas. So, into locations now. And so, there's definitely no talk of, you know, reducing or anything of that nature. I remember a little while ago, I remember Bobby wrote a, it was either a podcast or he wrote a blog post about this, that during the 2008 recession, I believe it was, that the companies that actually spent more and, and became more aggressive with their advertising are the ones that grew the most. And so we're very, um, bullish. Um, I think this recession is a nothing burger. Don't hold me to that if I'm wrong, but, um, I think it's a little bit more of this like self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing if we keep saying it might happen. So let's just not talk about it. There's no indication of that. I mean, we're all growing. Every distributor I talk with has had their best year ever. There's no signs of that of course January's gonna be a little bit slower, but there's no real indicator that it's going to continue. So as long as we continue to feed that narrative to our customers, they'll feed it to theirs. And let's just get more positive so we don't have to have the talk of how we're gonna reduce our forecasts. And for us, we go down, we're, I'm a lot, we're a lot smaller than these other two companies. So we get really granular, granular. This is an industry of individuals. My team has been tasked with how many we don't, We don't have accounts, we don't have this distributor and that distributor and that distributor. We have you and you and you and you and you. And so if each one of these relationships is, is, is got sort of a, a forecast to it, then what's the value of just adding another relationship? What's the value of, of, of taking that relationship a little bit further, right? A little bit wider, a little bit deeper on what they're working on, how you can help. And with that, you know, my team has created a pretty bold forecast because we just, We don't, we don't wanna believe that there's gonna be anything to worry about. And I think that's up to us if we continue to, to kind of espouse that positivity of how strong it is, that will continue to trickle down into the businesses that we serve.

Yeah, I'm completely aligned with you, Sam.

Yeah, let's do it.

So we're gonna be best friends here. Yeah.

So we will have that clip.

You know, we are super bullish. We really are. You know, I think there's a few stumbles, you know, initially here, but I think by Q2 and the balance of the year, we're gonna be full steam ahead. So we are not slashing our budgets either. I will say that we do a lot of scenario planning. We do that constantly in our business and to make sure that we are, you know, we have plans at the ready should we need to pivot quickly. But right now we are full steam ahead and we are probably investing more not only in inventory and tools, but also through our digital transformation than we ever have in the past. And we believe that it's actually going to turn out to be one of our best years.

So all of you are working for private equity-backed companies, which comes with its own unique pressures. Wondering, you know, how each of you kind of handle those expectations, manage the stress, and ultimately kind of keep it real.

Trina.

I feel really differently about private equity.

I feel, I don't know, like they very much support us and empower us in a lot of ways. And I feel like you have this whole group of people that are extremely smart that if you have an issue or a problem that you can run something by or talk through something with them. And actually really learn from them. I mean, when we first launched Batch and Bodega, you know, it, it came out at the, the gates like much stronger than we thought it was going to. And we had a capacity issue right away. It was like, okay, we, we can't actually produce as many kits as people want. What are we gonna do? Well, private equity group had a team come out there and in 4 days they figured it out. Okay, you're gonna need these machines, you're gonna need this many people, here's what you're gonna need to do. And it was done. And we, suddenly have the capacity. So I, it's stressful. Sorry, I like to touch myself apparently, but it's stressful to have a board meeting. It's absolutely stressful to have to, you know, talk on lenders' calls, all those things. I can't say it's not stressful, but I think the win that you get from private equity, it far outweighs that because you have this, this team and this bandwidth that you wouldn't have otherwise.

Sam? Um, what she said, but also, um, it's, it's made me personally level up as a professional in a way that I've never had to do in my career. Um, I'm grateful for it. Every 3 months I have to prepare for a board meeting that takes 6 weeks to prepare for. I have to not spin anything because they know the numbers, they know what we're doing. And so I have to, I had to become more professional. I had to become more accountable. I had to quantify things, not just kind of have ideas. It's pushed my team to also have to do the same. Every 2 weeks we have a financial review. I have to know my numbers. I have to know why, where, how. But we're also very blessed with an incredible private equity company that does not feel like private equity at all. And when we struggle with something, we have someone to go to. When we wanted to do this Las Vegas expansion, I thought for sure this was gonna be a slog. It took us about 2 months of data and, and work to put together the deck and to present. And it was before we got to slide 5, they were like, let's do it. You know? And that is really cool and really empowering just to know you kind of have this cushion behind you. Now you have to do your job and you have to do it well and you have to perform. But it has been, it's my first real experience with it. I've, I've really liked it. I sort of joked that I feel like we end one board meeting and then like we get 5 minutes off and then we gotta start preparing for the next one. But it really helps you think of what is it I want to focus on 3 months from now that I'm going to have to present to them? And then that kind of sets my own strategy of like, okay, this quarter we're going to do this. So that kind of helps guide me for 3 months. So for me personally, if it was, it was definitely a leveling up for what I have been able to do and not the scary bad private equity thing than I thought it was going to be. They're very nice people.

Holly?

I would say the same. I came from an industry, my entire career was in Fortune 50 to 250 companies, publicly traded. So this is my first go from being under the thumb of a private equity supporter and investor. But I've been really happy with the investors that we have. They've been fantastic. And I think, you know, to what you both have said, you know, been very supportive in terms of, a sounding board to run ideas past and to talk about, you know, what's going to happen going forward and how we could think about that in a little bit of a different lens. I do agree that I do spend, you know, pretty much 6 weeks preparing for that every 12 weeks. And then we have a mini board meeting every month as well. So, so there's a lot of engagement, but I look at them as they're our advisors and that's what they're there to do. And so, you know, we have a culture of high accountability and high performance, but that doesn't mean that we can't try things and, you know, embrace failing fast. And if something doesn't work, Let's just make sure that we're learning from it and we're pivoting in a different direction as we move forward. And they're fully supportive of that. So I've been really, really pleased and very blessed.

So you guys have all reached, you know, amazing stages in your career in sales leadership and coaching and have obviously accrued a lot of wisdom kind of during that time. What would you tell your younger selves about sales leadership in general and coaching?

I would tell myself to listen a lot more and talk a lot less. You know, I think in the beginning of my career, I did feel like just the, like the conversations we had this morning, like I had to have all the answers and I was the one who had to save the day. And I think as soon as you realize that you have this incredible team that you can work with, and once they start to bring you the answers and you start to really kind of work together, that's when growth really happens. So I would tell myself to shut up.

And what, and what else? And what else?

Run. That's right.

That's right.

Real chat.

That's right.

I would pinch myself. I mean, I would not have believed that I would be in the industry that I'm in with people like that I love and have had the opportunity to work with amazing companies and in my past and currently. I mean, I don't, from where I came from and the, you know, the, the life that I had, I would not have thought that I would be where I am. I think I was programmed to think that you're not successful unless you're a doctor or a lawyer, you know, an engineer. And that was it growing up. That's sort of what the, the party line was. And holy shit, you can be really successful being in promotional products, working for a supplier of pens and books and bags and notebooks. And you know what? You can have a blast. Like you can, even my kids are like, I just wanna be, do what you do, mom. I don't know what you do, but you look like you love it. And I'm, I, I do, I love it. I love what I do. I love that we come to the show and it feels like coming home. I love that everybody hugs everybody. What other industry does that? So, I mean, I think first I would just be like, you're gonna be okay. Your life is gonna be okay. And then as far as like advice to myself, it would be for sure, listen, a little bit more wouldn't have killed you. Um, and, and I think that, I think when I was younger, the younger version of myself had felt like I needed to get credit. I needed people to notice that I did it. Now I don't give a shit. I want my team to get the credit. I want them to shine. I, I love watching people who work with me, for me, do make great things happen. It's so rewarding. And that's the, maybe the mature old person that I am now. Uh, old person, old, older person is, that is super cool. And so I think when I was younger, like you didn't have to do it all. You didn't have everyone have to, everyone notice. You could just chill out a bit and let everybody else around you be who they are and shine. And that was the most rewarding part.

Yeah, I think, um, active listening is certainly important, but I'm gonna take this a little bit of different direction. Um, I would say I would tell my younger self to make sure that you're hiring the best talent that's out there and building an A-team. And it's interesting because when you're young in your sales career, you know, you really don't have the education around how do you build the right type of, uh, sales team and hire the right talent that's gonna be focused on driving revenue for you going forward. I mean, if you think about it, we probably spend more time getting trained on how to drive a car than we do on, you know, that. And that's such a critical piece. And I think, you know, in younger years, you sort of have that tendency to race to hire somebody because you've got a hole, you need to fill that gap, you need a buffer between you and whoever it is. And, and in some cases, you know, you make hiring mistakes. And so I think that's been, you know, certainly a big, a big focus for our organization, a big focus for me as I've grown throughout my career is to make sure that I'm taking the time to really hire the right people and the A-team And there's been some, you know, insightful kind of seminars and books along the way that helped me through the years.

Yeah. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SkewCast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing to SkewCast on iTunes, iTunes, or to our blog at community.commonskeew.com. Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening.