Episode 280: “Fuel for Good,” Brand Fuel’s B Corp Journey with Danny Rosin and Mel Hubner

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. SkewCast is the official podcast of Common Skew. Making business a force for good. That's the purpose behind B Corp. And when our good friends Danny Rosen and Robert Fiveash, through their company Brand Fuel, became B Corp certified, it's as if they opened a door for our industry in a way that wasn't quite possible before. Why? Well, it felt like Danny and Robert were one of us. A legacy distributor over 25 years in business. And though they have this amazing track record for community impact, most of us equated B Corp with one thing: sustainability. When in reality, being a conscientious business who cares about where and how their products are made, who they sell to, and how they impact the planet and the people they serve is what Brand Fuel was about. And when they became B Corp certified, it was like a wake-up call to what's possible for any entrepreneur in this business, large or small. But it wasn't an easy journey. Today we talk about Brand Fuel's 10-year ambition to become a B Corp certified company, not because of the designation, but because of what the designation would inspire them to continue to be. Our guests today are Danny Rosen, co-owner of Brandfuel, and Mel Hubner, director of social impact and sustainability at Brandfuel. Danny, along with his 40-year friendship and partnership with Robert Fiveash, founded Brandfuel in 1998. He is the proud co-founder of Promo Kitchen, Promo Cares, and Reciprocity Road. He's also the co-founder of Band Together, a nonprofit that has donated $12 million to the Triangle nonprofit community through live music experiences. Experiences. He serves on the board of A Place at the Table, a pay-what-you-can cafe, and Gabby's Pals, a nonprofit that empowers people with special abilities through fulfillment programming. He has served on the executive board of PPAI, as the president of Carolina's Association of Advertising and Marketing Professionals, and volunteered on numerous PPAI committees. Mel Hubner is the director of social impact and sustainability at Brand Fuel. Mel focuses on growing their collection of sustainable products their partnerships with other purpose-driven organizations, and the positive impact on their team, clients, and the planet as a certified B Corp. She's passionate about community engagement and the role that businesses play in addressing social and environmental issues. As a B Local North Carolina Triangle board member, Mel also creates the space for B Corps to engage, collaborate, and support each other locally and globally. Talk with Mel and Danny about the B Corp process, how it has changed their organization, their shift in working with clients, the decision to bring Mel on as their director and what her role encompasses. And even if you're not interested in becoming a B Corp, you'll appreciate the relentless pursuit of honing and shaping a business of any kind and any size to become a force for good. Before our chat with Danny and Mel, have you heard about our newsletter called The Backpack? The Backpack is an emailed newsletter we send to you on the first and third Friday of each month. It features trends in merch, top articles and podcast episodes, and global news impacting merch life. How are recipients responding to the newsletter? Well, our open rate is 75% higher than HubSpot's best benchmark, and our click-through rate is 200% higher. I'm not bragging, I'm just suggesting that it's worth your time to check it out. You can see our latest issue and subscribe at commonskew.com/backpack. And one more note. Did you know that 80% of B2B buyers expect real-time interaction or as near real-time as they can get? 80%. Most expect a response to their email within an hour. And as you know, many now contact you via text or Slack for an immediate connection. It's because of this real-time demand that we built portals. You can give your clients complete visibility with portals. They can view all current and past orders, place reorders and start new projects with a click of the button and on their own time so they can get that immediate response that they crave. Your clients will love the transparency, and you know what you'll love? That easy reorder button, the ease of use, and probably one of the best client retention tools available today. Because if you can get them hooked on your immediate service, you have a client for life. Check out our portals and our work-from-anywhere ordering platform at commonscue.com. Now on to our episode, and this recording was a live interview during our sustainability event called Products and Sustainability, but it's available today as a recording here for the first time. Enjoy this inspiring chat with our good friends, Danny and Mel. Thank you for joining us today.

Thanks for having us.

Mel, let's kick this off because I'm curious if a lot of folks are like me, I have a rough idea of what B Corp is about. But really, I could— if you had to pin me against the wall, I don't know that I could answer it succinctly. So what exactly is B Corp? And why is this so important? How would you explain it to someone who doesn't know anything about it?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I do this every day. So I'll try to keep it simple. But yes, so B Corp is a certification for companies that are focusing on social and environmental impact for for-profit companies. So it really touches on that, that role of businesses as a force for good, right? It is also a framework. So it is, every B Corp has to go through an assessment that is open to the public. And so those that are even considering becoming a B Corp or not sure how to become one or if it fits their business, they can still join the B Impact Assessment and use it as a tool around their social environmental impact as a business. And it's also, it's a movement, you know, B Corp is a movement where we're really hearing a lot of different brands. Just, I'm a B Corp, B Corp this, would a B Corp do that? And it's a movement of businesses that are really taking into consideration their social and environmental impact and their, their community involvement and making decisions around stakeholder involvement, not just shareholders.

Where is B Corp most misunderstood? Where do we misunderstand it?

Yeah. So, you know, quickly, I'm new to the industry, right? And so when I first joined Brand Fuel, I quickly noticed that B Corp is also— it's often tied with environmental impact. That's really not just what we're focusing on, you know, the B Corp assessment has 5 categories: governance, workers, community, environment, of course, and clients. And so it's a scorecard that involves all these different areas of social impact and sustainability. So it's not just the environmental impact. And that, and it's great because it fits a lot of the different industries and different sizes of businesses and different goals that businesses have. So it's not just one, one thing that fits you know, that puts you in a box. You have the different areas that you can focus on.

Thank you for clarifying that, because it's not just about sustainability. I think it was a big, very important factor. And Danny, what does validation through B Corp matter for your business? And honestly, as a representative of our industry, what does it matter to our industry?

Yeah, I'll say elevating the perception of our industry is a big one. I think about youthification, like bringing younger entrants into the industry. I think the buyers are getting younger to some extent. I think the old generation has screwed up the world, and I think the younger generation is looking to make better decisions with their dollars and work with companies that actually care and want to do better things for the earth, for example. I think it's a good measuring stick for our industry. I think it's always important to think about how we can elevate the industry through measurement. And I think B Corp does that. I know everybody's talking about AI. So maybe AI is a disruptor. That's either a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it. But if it's a threat to you in some way, I think B Corp is differentiation. And then alignment with supplier brands and retail brands that are doing great things in this world that we can sell. Patagonia, Cotopaxi, TenTree, Clean Canteen, Ocean Bottle, Milk It List, all of them. I'm excited about shout out to Chameleon Like. They just got B Corp certified. So awesome. They're part of the family. It's really great. So yeah, ultimately it's a mark of pride and we have it at Brand Fuel now. We're super proud, but we want to see this happen more in our industry.

Congratulations to Chameleon Like. And I know how hard they work at that and worked at it. And Danny, you too. This has been— here's what's surprising, might surprise folks. It's been a 12-year journey for you. 12 years you've been thinking about this. When did it go from a wish to an actual plan?

Yeah, well, yeah, it's kind of embarrassing to think that it took 12 years, but, but I, but so 12 years ago, I got invited to an event. It was a B Corp local event, kind of like what Mel puts on here. And I was so inspired. I called Robert up like immediately after. I was just like yakety-yak in his ear for like 10 minutes straight. And it was kind of the thing that we've been searching for since we started Brandfuel in 1998. And Robert was equally excited. To get started. But the process was really intense. And I just like, to be honest, in 2011, we failed miserably. I think we got like a 52 or something. And it was a painful awakening at first. But B-Labs, they were great. They encouraged us to keep at it and keep giving us— they kept offering guidance and support. And I thought that was great. So we started to educate ourselves and we started adding B Corp certification to our strategic plan. It sat on there for almost a decade, which drove me nuts. I'm a get stuff done kind of person, but we started to address our weak spots over a 10-year period. And this is kind of a good opportunity to say like congratulations to PPAI and also like CommonSchool. You guys put on this event, specialized event, that those are the things that help organizations like ours get there. But as a more mature company, I think, you know, we're more focused now than we were when we started, when we reapplied 2 years ago, and that process of hiring Mel was a step after, a bold move. And I just, I think about how grateful we are to have her on our team and to think about our industry and like at some point in time that there may be people with that director of social impact and sustainability title more in our industry, which is so cool.

Absolutely.

But, you know, it's funny, a lot of this stuff is just about now asking ourselves if If the B Labs team were, if they were in the room with us when we are making a decision, you know, would they be okay with it? Would that be a good decision for us? And those are good things for us to push up against what we do. And I brought this little prop here. It's like, you know, this little hat, this little cowboy hat, this little foam stress reliever. You know I was going to go there, Bobby. You know, it's like, is it okay to sell this, you know, foam stress reliever in the shape of a cowboy hat at like a Western party when executives are getting this thing? Ding, ding, ding! The answer is no, it is not OK. And so, you know, I think now we're really addressing those types of issues in a different way.

Yeah. 12 years ago almost predates our industry's laser focus on sustainability. So back then, was your vision first, like, the doing brand good as a general theme? And then did you evolve as a professional when it comes to sustainability? Because here's why I ask this. When I was talking with Chuck Hammond with Raining Rose, he talked about B Corp, and he said it was not something they chased. They didn't shoehorn it into their business. He said, attaining B Corp was simply a ratification of their values. We know you as someone who has been involved in Brand Good for a long time. You didn't need the B Corp designation to know that your heart was in Brand Good. But was this an evolution for you as a leader too?

Yeah, so much so. I mean, it's funny, we've always tried to do the right thing, like this idea of having a corporate conscience, which I think is like kind of an oxymoron. But I think as Robert and I, you know, started to do more social impact work we started to realize we were attracting great employees and like Mel and retaining clients and attracting folks that really allowed us to kind of have that visceral feeling of wholesomeness, like we're doing something right. It felt more than about just profit and that made us proud. And so we doubled down on brand good and we were doing volunteering locally and donating things and discounting things for nonprofits that we loved. And I think, you know, those are kind of the easy things. And then, and then like just recently, we all went through the pandemic. We had to make hard decisions, too, which kind of helped us start to force our course towards B Corp certification again. For example, the pandemic happened and our staff agreed to take pay cuts. And Robert and I were the first ones to do it. We did it early and swiftly and largely, and we had to do it to survive. And, and then we made the hard decision to pay everybody back when we could. We weren't cash flush. We didn't have the money to really do it, but we did it anyway because it was the right thing.

Yeah.

And then it was like rejecting tobacco companies as clients.

I was going to ask about that. Here's a question I have about that, Danny and Mel. I have a question about process in just a minute, too. But how did this road to becoming qualified change the way you did business the most? I mean, you probably had to winnow out some clients and change your focus.

Yeah. And we talked to Mel about this as well when we were hiring her. And we've told the whole company this. And so this is kind of a hard thing to say. But I'll just say we, from a financial perspective, I think the willingness to say no to customers because they're not values-aligned fits with us makes us realize we may shrink a bit at Brandfuel before we grow. And I think we're willing to do that. I mean, this is all, you know, it's a commission-based industry. We've moved a bit away from that and right-sized more salaries on our sales team and things like that with different commission models. But there's a lot at stake. And so strategically abandoning old ways like those tobacco companies and fast fashion companies and moving and suppliers that sell Confederate flag things, we just don't go there. And so we're bumping everything up against the certification. We're asking ourselves, you know, would our kids be proud? You know, would Grandma be proud about the decision that we made?

Maile, what was this process like? I mean, Danny, I know you went through this process, and Maile, you're very acquainted with the whole qualification process and everything about it. Like, did Branfield submit multiple times? How did, how did the, how does the process, because there are probably folks here that go, "I'm curious, and I want to start my journey toward B Corp." Yeah, and before I touch on the process piece, I just want to add to what Danny said around we may shrink before we grow.

I love that we said that because now that we are really positioning ourselves as folks that are focusing on social and environmental impact, we are already seeing clients who are coming to us because of that. You know, they're asking strategic questions around impact versus— before they go to like the backpack or the mug, you know, they're asking, so what are you doing around your environmental impact? You know, what are the types of suppliers that you're working with? Working with. You know, so they're asking, we're already attracting those folks. So it's really amazing. And I want to say too, we would love to also work with mission-driven, not, not just B Corps. B Corps are great. We're part of that movement. But nonprofits, you know, other folks that, that are doing the right thing and are being purposeful, but perhaps don't have the means to get certified just yet.

Right.

So we want to keep that equity piece in mind as well. And so going back to the process, yes, I mean, you have the assessment, like I said, it's open, and you have certain questions they have to answer based on how you answered the initial questions, others open up. And as of right now, you have to hit 80 out of 200 to get certified. If you hit 80, perfect, you submit your assessment, you know, B-Lab is going to review, and then you go through the verification process. That is a lot of documentation, a lot of audits, you know, it's a a lot of back and forth. That process is the process that takes the longest, you know, in the certification process. And then once that's all in check, you do get certified. But you know, if you do the initial run through and you did not reach the 80, that's okay, because I love that the assessment is kind of written where you can get ideas on how to improve, you know, so the questions, they have different levels. And so, you know, you know, in order— if you focus on this and set this as a goal, you know that you'll get a certain amount 5 points, you know, and that might take you to the 80.

Yeah, so it's coaching you as a process in a sense, just a qualification and coaching. Dani, I'm reminded of something the founder of Starbucks talked about, and that is once he hit a certain apex of success, that was actually when he was the most nervous. And so it seems like this isn't just a, "I crossed the finish line, now we're done." It feels like this is a constant evolution of your business moving forward. Is that correct?

Yeah, it's completely correct. I think, you know, it's like every time you get your points, it's like, you know, they're mini high fives and tequila shots for everyone. We're so like proud. But that whole process is, and the auditing, it's agonizing in some ways, but it's really revealing about, you know, what you're made of and where your blind spots are and the industry's blind spots, actually. And we rely on— I mean, we're not making things. I think about Chameleon and some of these other B Corp organizations. They've got so much more to do. But, you know, we're trying to— I think we're really trying to really redefine who we are as a company through this process and have it be something— you know, we always talk about it as being a journey, but really forcing us to look at ourselves what the opportunities are. I think about companies like Fareware. Oh my gosh, we have such a crush on them. Like they are really good at like the product side and making sure that the supply chain is tight and right. And they take it super seriously. We're learning about that. We're not as good, but where we're really good is the social impact and the volunteerism and things like that. So it's a step-by-step process and something to always look at and try and reinvent as we move along.

I was just talking to Denise Tashereau with Fairway yesterday, and she used a great word with me, "coopetition." And she talked about sharing supply, more supply chain resources and things like that. So she's so refreshing. Danny, we just came back from CEO Summit, and your business partner, Robert Fiveash, our good friend, was there. And there are roles emerging in the new generation and the new evolution of the industry. There are roles like COO that are coming up. More people are hiring HR. This role, Mel's role as Director of Social Impact and Sustainability, Danny, do you see that— 2-part question: Do you see that as a role that will become, or should become, more prevalent in our industry? And if so, how do you baby-step your way into something like that? And then I have questions for you, Mel, about the role itself.

Yeah. So yeah, I'll just say that, you know, Making this decision to hire Mel was, I think, when I'm thinking about like the future of Brandfuel, it was just a critical decision. I think we realized that nobody here had the bandwidth or the resources or the education to be able to do it as well as someone that we invested in. So we're taking a hard line there. I mean, Mel's got this background in working with multiple B corporations in the nonprofit sector. And so if you can't do that, you know, I was looking at some information. If you go to promocares.org and you go to the distributor, the supplier section there, there are recommendations on that page of things that you can do, incremental things that you can do in your business to really start to add impact internally and externally and maybe take a pathway towards the B Corp certification. But, you know, I'll add one more thing here. You know, I mentioned earlier, this is— we may take a step back to move forward. We may shrink to grow. And, you know, I'm super proud of what we're doing. And we're up 10% this year, just, you know, so we're excited about that. But I look at, you know, ROI, we all do, you know, return on investment. So when we hired Mel, you know, think about this in your own business. If you hire someone, look at it as a capacity-building investment. And so instead of return on investment, we were looking at ROR, which is return on relationship. How do we build rapport with our customers, our suppliers, internally with our staff? It was— this first year really is about relationship building and also education. And we feel like the return on that will come in year 2 and 3 and 4.

I was visiting with the— we have a podcast that we'll release soon with the former CMO of Adidas, or Adidas. Depending on what part of the country you're from. And he was talking about, he used the term "greenwishing." And there's a lot of greenwishing in the industry. What this strikes me, though, with Maile and the investment that you've made in Maile and Maile, your vision and role is crossing that line of greenwishing and saying, "No, we're going to have to put some action to this." Maile, your role, are you advising clients? I mean, do you vet suppliers? Like, we're, I'm curious what your day-to-day kind of looks like.

Yeah, um, crazy. It looks crazy. Um, yes, I am definitely— so number one is education for, for our team and then for our clients as well, you know. So, um, you know, we can be doing all of this hard work, but if we don't know how to communicate, you know, if we don't know how to bring it back to— so it relates to the client and our team, you know, there's no point. Uh, we got— we got to be able to do that. Um, and so education is number one for sure. And then I definitely meet with clients. So I'm actually currently at a client event. You know, I joined our team, it's a nonprofit client. We're here and I'm having conversations with folks left and right about our mission, you know, about the things that we can do for them and the initiatives that we have. So absolutely, and I am meeting with, along with our team as well, with clients. And then in terms of suppliers, you know, big focus has been on our B Corp, you know, suppliers, you know, understanding what they're doing, but also finding other B Corps out there that that have not been introduced to the industry just yet, you know. So looking at those folks and having conversations and having those— bouncing ideas off of each other, you know. I really do see sustainability in my role and what we're doing here. It's a very innovative field, you know, it's new and it's needed, right? And so, and that's how my role has been, is just like around innovation, getting feedback and addressing those in terms in having those innovative solutions. Um, and yeah, and so those are like number the two things that I'm doing. And then in terms of vetting suppliers, not just looking for those other B Corps and mission-driven suppliers, but also looking at impact reports that suppliers that we know, uh, are pushing out, you know, they're being transparent, they're doing the hard work, you know. I love— I know we have Gemline coming on soon, but I just love their commitment to PVC-free, you know, they're they're not there just yet, but they're being transparent about it and they're setting that as a goal. You know, PVC is a plastic and it has harmful chemicals. You know, we would love to see more partners taking stands like that, you know. Um, as well as we have, you know, suppliers there like Sandmarc, for example. I also saw that they were doing the really efforts of producing apparel in Africa, right, and finding innovative ways to do that. And so doing that research and taking the time is, is my role, you know. So we don't take— so, so our, our team doesn't have to do that, and they have a trusted resource. Um, and of course, you know, having conversations, you know, maybe suppliers are not putting those reports out there, maybe they're not tracking the data just yet, but as distributors, if we're asking them those questions, you know, and showing that not all distributors are caring, clients are caring, you know, hopefully suppliers will be able to catch up, you know. And in terms greenwashing, greenwashing, uh, the other side. We, you know, I really would love to put a— make it clear that, you know, by seeing the— some greenwashing in industry for sure from suppliers, you know, uh, taking, taking the time to do it and having a resource like mine is really key to be able to differentiate those things.

Brand Fuel Account Manager Jesse Bryan just chimed in on the chat where everyone probably saw, can confirm that Mel is a great resource for client meetings. I can only imagine Mel, having a resource like that. Absolutely love it. Um, as you look at our industry, Mel, what do you hope to change?

You know, I love that. I was thinking about that today, and I loved how Danny kind of kicked us off saying about the perception of the industry. You know, uh, before I joined, I mostly thought of, oh, it was like the cheap, quick, you know, things that we get. Uh, but really, in the way we can do that is one, if we're educating our clients about the work that BrandFuel is doing, for example, you know, we're hoping that we are, of course, already seeing consumer trends around sustainability and wanting those products that are giving back and they're keeping the impact in mind. But, you know, if they don't know that that backpack is doing that kind of work, right, like they won't buy those. So education is perfect. And so to get more clients to buy those products from us, right, and we are having the conversation with the suppliers that are doing their hard work, right, to be able to provide more of those options. And then joining, of course, sessions like this today, you know, it's a great opportunity to talk to other distributors, you know, that hopefully get inspired and feel like, yes, this is something that we should be looking into and doing, you know. So all of us play a huge role in changing the perception of the industry.

Yeah, good for— thank you, Mel. Thanks for that. Dani, how would you encourage others who are considering becoming B Corp? I mean, are there pitfalls, concerns, advice you would have? Everybody's on their journey in this in some way, how would you encourage them?

A friend of mine said something to me the other day. This is perfect answer for your question. Uh, he said, uh, you got to go to the pain. You know, you've got to go to the pain. Um, we have an industry that's still backwards, and we're really fighting the good fight. And I just love where we're headed. I mean, we're seeing, you know, more products from suppliers that are sustainable and It's not greenwashing. I'm thinking about the bright side of it. Like, find those things and invest in those things that you know you can do. Put those into your common SKU presentations more often. I think there are simple things that you can do that maybe if the B Corp certification is a little bit too much of a lift right now, work your step-by-step process to get there. Rally your troops. Bring everybody together. Talk about why it's important. You know, our industry doesn't have the best reputation in certain circles, and I think we need to address that. And it starts, you know, with you as a salesperson who's out there looking at where to represent not only, you know, your company, but the entire industry. Think about the entire industry and how that we can lift the industry up by selling this quality merchandise with pride. Challenge your customers to think differently. They're still trying to buy cheap stuff. Margin integrity comes with this. Decision, this conscious decision to put caring into your process and thoughtfulness. You know, the world needs positive change. We've got an opportunity as an industry to get invested in that. So if you can't do the B Corp, do some of that stuff.

Mel, thank you so much. We're looking to you and watch you with admiration. Thank you for leading the charge with this. And Danny, my friend, Thank you for being such a relentless encourager, relentless encourager. Thank you both for being here today.

Thanks, Bobbie.

Thanks so much for having us.

You bet. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SkuCast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing to SKU Cast on iTunes or to our blog at community.comandsku.com. Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening.