Episode 283: Industry Trends Driving Innovation Now with Bill Petrie and Kirby Hasseman

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. SkewCast is the official podcast of Common Skew. We have a very special crossover episode for you today. You likely know our two guests, Bill Petrie and Kirby Hosiman. With over 23 years working in executive leadership positions in the promo industry, Bill Petrie is the founder and creative director at Brandivate. He helps both suppliers and distributors grow their businesses by effectively communicating their brands. He's a frequent speaker, former Promo Kitchen chef, and he's the host of the Promo Upfront podcast along with his friend and co-host Kirby Haaseman. Kirby is the CEO of Haaseman Marketing and Communications, a full-service marketing company and promo distributor. He's also served on the board of Promo Kitchen. In addition to Promo Upfront, Kirby hosts a weekly web show called Delivering Marketing Joy, where he interviews business leaders from around the country and publishes Monday Minute, a weekly short video series on personal development. Kirby has published 5 books: Delivering Marketing Joy, Fan of Happy, Think Big: Marketing for Small Business, The Give First Economy, and his most recent hit, The Target. Today, Kirby and Bill join me on our show, and next week, Mark Graham and I will be joining Bill and Kirby on their show in a fun little crossover project. But for this episode, I wanted to get inside the head of these 2 leading industry thinkers. To talk about the most innovative trends that are changing our industry for the better. Along the way, we discuss the impact of technology, e-commerce, the distributor-supplier demographic changes, and since they are both prolific creators, the impact content is having on their marketing and where they are seeing the greatest returns. Hi friends, I'm Bobby LeHew, Chief Content Officer at CommsQ. Did you know that 80% of B2B buyers expect real-time interaction or as near real-time as they can get? Most expect a response to their email within an hour, and as you know, many now contact you via text or Slack for an immediate connection. Now, it's because of this real-time demand that we built portals. You can give your clients complete visibility with portals. They can view all current and past orders, place reorders, and start new projects with a click of a button and on their own time to get that immediate response they crave. Your clients will love the transparency, and you'll love that easy reorder button, the ease of use, and probably one of the best client retention tools available today. Because if you can get them hooked on real-time responses, you can have a client for life. Check out our portals and our work-from-anywhere ordering platform at commentsq.com. Now here's our chat with Bill and Kirby. As I mentioned in the intro, it is really rare to have these two join someone else's show to give an overview of trends that are happening in the industry. So welcome, Kirby and Bill.

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Absolutely.

This is going to be fun.

We're talking kind of two main trend topics because, because we all of us in the room love content, that'll be on our docket today. But first, we're going to talk about, talk about overarching industry trends. Yeah, um, and I know you guys really unpack this on your podcast, but there's a lot of interesting numbers about out there about the industry and demographics and what's going on. PPAI reports that small distributors, less than $2.5 million in annual sales, comprise nearly 50% of the industry, um, the $25-26 billion industry, whatever the reported numbers are. Um, and then ASI is reporting they're the first company to hit a billion as a distributor, first company to hit a billion for for Imprint this year. It's worth mentioning that ASI lists small distributors as under $250K in revenue, medium size as $250K to $1 million, and large distributors $1 million plus. That was on their latest State of the Industry report. And so my question to you is that we're talking about the biggest trends that sort of driving innovation right now. Have the demographics changed in the industry? And if so, How is that impacting folks running a business moving forward? Bill, let's start with you.

You sent these questions in all fairness, and I didn't look at them.

So of course I didn't expect you to.

I don't even know how many are on there. So from a distributor perspective, I think, you know, a lot of these lists, the size— what's interesting about what you said there, Bobby, was the sizing disparity, what PPAI considers small, medium, large, and what ASI considers those same demographics, you know, it's like, you know, the difference between a supersized meal at McDonald's and a supersized meal at Burger King. Everybody has their own metrics. So I don't think those type of things matter a hell of a lot when it comes to innovation. I think historically you see smaller companies are more agile, they're more nimble, and, and they, because they have to break through the noise created by the people who have larger budgets, they tend to be more forward-thinking and more innovative. And I think we need to remember as an industry, as we see the proliferation of lists that come bigger doesn't always mean better. Better means better. And I think, I think we get so hung up on these ranked lists. I know Kirby's going to completely disagree with me, but, you know, I, I do think, I, I do think that what drives innovation is people wanting to be better, people needing to get noticed, people needing to get their message out there, not necessarily, uh, size for the sake of size's sake.

Yeah, Kirby, somewhere between PPAI's 2.5 million and ASI's top 40, which starts at, we know, close to a billion and comes down to about 37 at the bottom of that top 40 list is this huge swath of distributors from 2.5 million to the 37 million number. What are your thoughts as a distributor who sits in that category?

Yeah, I mean, I, I think in this way I, I'd push back a little bit on what Bill said in the sense that I think size does matter when it comes to innovation. It's one of those things that it matters and it doesn't, right? Because I think Bill's point about, you know, being smaller does give you some advantages and And that's totally true. But I would say that cash is helpful when it comes to innovation, if we're just being honest, right? Like, there are, there are people in this industry who I would love to hire, and I think they'd help me innovate, but I can't afford to do it because I'm a smaller distributor. So I would say that some of those larger folks have the just, just the bandwidth, they have the ability to innovate like on technology, right? Like, whereas I am leaning on my partners like Common Skew and things like that to help ensure that we're on the cutting edge of things. Larger distributors, larger suppliers have the ability to invest in that, to do that themselves. So A, I think it does matter. But on the other side, one of the things I love about the industry is once it gets down to the brass tacks, it's people still buy from people they like, know, and trust. And in so many ways, whether it's the Halos of the world, the Proformas of the world, or the Hospit Marketings of the world, ultimately I am going to be sitting across the desk one-on-one from a human. And in that moment, it doesn't matter. So does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes perfect sense because even in those large distributorships, you have these small units of teams that are actually operating the same way a small distributor does in many senses.

Can I push back on Kirby's statement real quick, Kirby? Real quick. You know, you're right that larger companies have the ability to invest in those things. It's the fact that a lot of times they don't. A lot of times they just sit on a pile of money because they're worried about what the future holds or they want to report specific earnings numbers to people who have invested and things like that. So just because someone has the ability doesn't mean that they are. So while you're technically correct, you're wholly wrong.

I'm used to that. Yeah.

Yeah.

OK.

In the essence of time, we're going to move on, Kirby.

Otherwise, I'd love for you to volley that back.

All right.

Industry demographics, biodiversity. What's the most positive thing you're seeing change in the industry? Kirby, let's start with you.

Yeah, I honestly, I have said for years that I think that our industry really models a really large small town. It's really big, but man, I have seen for a long time— you know, I'm from a small town in Coshocton, it is incredibly white, right? Like, my hometown is incredibly white, and I have been surprised for years at the level of consistency within our industry with that exact same sort of consistency. I have seen progress in that, um, not where by any stretch where I think as an industry we want to be, but I think we are starting to value different genders, different people of color and all that sort of thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And just as a quick anecdote, Bobby, I know you are a big reader and I think you'll appreciate this. I just finished a book called The Anatomy of a Breakthrough. And one of the big points that the author made was the injection of diversity of thought. And this was specifically about just diversity of thought into a creative project. They actually did studies across decades. And the big thing they actually studied was the show Doctor Who, right? Show Doctor Who across decades, right? And they said that they figured that teams that had worked together for a long time would create the best work. But they sort of definitively debunked that, is that when they introduced different people, different thoughts, different generations, the episodes became more creative, more interesting. And I think that that is the piece that comes to mind when I think of diversity right now is I think we focus so much on color or lifestyle or that sort of thing. It is, if you can introduce diversity of thought, creative projects get better.

It's about perspective. Bill?

Yeah, I love what you said there about diversity of thought, Kirby. I think with diversity or an industry that's historically slow to change, and I think that's reflected in diversity initiatives and in DEI in general, I've said it before on Kirby and I's podcast. I think DEI is really suffering from a branding problem. Diversity means 100 different things to 100 different people. Equity means, again, 100 different things to 100 different people. And so people tend to focus on those two and debate what that means and how I'm disenfranchised and that's not fair. And if we focused on inclusion, that's a really Teflon argument. It's a very difficult one for anybody to say, I don't want to be inclusive. If we would focus as an industry on inclusive, being inclusive, and I think it starts at PPAI. It starts at larger firms that are hiring people at large rates. That's where this starts. It's marketing to people to join our industry. That's PPAI and ASI, and it's large companies being intentional, as Kirby would probably say, intentional about let's make sure we do have diverse thought, whatever the background is. Diverse thought, because diverse backgrounds do lead to diverse thought because they're different experiences that they bring to the table.

Supplier demographics. How is that, how has that changed as you have both been in this industry a while? Are we seeing more innovation by upcoming suppliers? Are we seeing larger suppliers take on the innovation role? Or is the consolidation impacting the industry's innovation as we move forward? Bill, what are your thoughts?

I'm not sure we're seeing a lot of innovation from suppliers other than the continued trend toward packaging and experience. Experiences. I think we're still seeing that, but that's been happening for the last 8-10 years thanks to Jason Lukasz and our newly retired friend Mike Simczak from Auric Audio. They really brought that to the table. A lot of people have adopted that. I think again, what's challenging is it's hard for new suppliers to bring something new to the industry. It's hard for them to enter the industry in an industry that is resistant to change. Most people would rather dance with the devil they know than possibly partner with an angel they don't. And so that is the biggest challenge is getting people people's attention that, hey, this is new and different. It's not just a pen with a blinky light this year.

Kirby?

Yeah, I agree on this one with Bill. I don't think we're seeing a ton of innovation across the industry, and that's not a shot. I think part of that is just the sort of hangover effect of COVID It hit for, for a couple years there, it didn't make any sense from a financial perspective to invest in innovation, man. They were just trying to get pens off the boats, right? Like, so to, to their defense, where I do see innovation from my perspective is much more actually on the smaller distributor side, but the smaller suppliers, excuse me, smaller suppliers who are very narrow in their product focus. And what I mean by that is they're not trying to be everything to everybody 'cause it's really hard to compete in a big world. Those folks who have narrow product focus and then like figure out ways to innovate in delivery and stand out in that way, that's, and those are the ones that stand out to me as a distributor 'cause I'm like, okay, I can go to market in a totally different way and deliver, that's, that's where I see some innovation happening.

Kirby, while we're with you, and let's talk again about distributor changes, particularly changes in services, how they've changed pre-COVID, during COVID post-COVID, and what's remained permanent moving forward. What kind of changes as a distributor, what kind of changes have you seen in your own business and services?

Yeah, I think we've talked about this a little bit, but I think I'm probably a little bit more on this than many distributors as we, you know, we have you hear the term agency, a model as a distributor. I mean, we have in-house video production. We have digital marketing services. We invested in print. And to me, that's where those services lie is that you can become a, you know, there's, it's, it goes back and forth. You know, there's a, you can become all things to many of your larger clients. They can print it in-house. You can do digital marketing. You can do that. I think that does a couple of things. Number one, you become— and obviously it's what I'm betting on, right, as an entrepreneur— is that we become the one call. It also— there's some of those services that are much higher margin, right? There's no cost of goods in me managing your digital marketing services. There's some cost of goods, but it's a totally different deal. That being said, I think it's really important when you add those things that you don't lose sight of your core. I always say that we need to make sure that we still focus on the straw that stirs the drink. You know, 85% of our revenue still comes from branded merch. We need to not lose sight of that and make sure that we're, if we're doing these other services, that they are synergistic with what we offer, we have offered in the past, if that makes sense.

Yeah, Bill, what are you saying?

I agree 100% with Kirby, so I'm not going to belabor the point. The only thing I'd add to it is I think for, for distributors, what the real change in services, what I'm seeing is distributors are finally starting to think first as marketers and second as salespeople. Good point. Um, so we, we all agree that everybody buys promotional products, so if that's what we all agree on, that's the foundation of the industry, then stop trying to sell people what they're already going to buy. Focus on getting them the right equipment to solve their marketing issues. What piece of branded merchandise is going to do that? And when you start thinking about it from the end result of the client and less about what can I sell them to make my car payment this month, you end up really being starting that agency model that Kirby and his team have already fabulously built in Ohio.

Yeah. And Bobby, if I may, one of the things that I've found that you talked about a trend, I was having this conversation with Bill the other day. That I was talking to another distributor and he said margins are really getting tougher to come by right now, just in this inflationary period. And I gave, I really didn't respond. I wanted to give it some thought. And what I came back to is we need to get back to the concept of getting proactive about the ideas that we promote. If all we're doing is reorders and listening to phone calls, yeah, that's when margins deteriorate. And so ironically, while it's a trend, it's sort of going back to basics that we go to our clients with actual solutions to their problems, which is exactly what Bill's saying.

Yeah. Yeah. And oddly enough, distributors face margin pressure in a different way. We've seen an increase in services, so more distributors are doing kitting and packaging fulfillment, but margins have stayed the same or declined. And so there is a squeeze in profit that's happened as a trend in the industry. Let's bundle 3 different technology questions into one. So You know, this isn't just because we're a technology company. Technology runs every facet of our lives. So let me ask you how technology is changing the industry and innovation moving forward, both in client-facing technology and the ops that runs a distributor's business. And then, of course, in e-commerce, it's just 3 different areas. But how do you see technology moving forward impacting the industry? And it's a broad question, Bill.

Yeah, I think from client-facing technology, which is the first part of your question, I think it depends on your definition of client-facing. I think I think if you are a supplier and your client is the distributor, yeah, we've seen a ton of tools. I think a ton in common SKU is, is, or not common SKU, but I'll get to you guys in a second. But there's a lot of great tools that suppliers use to sell to their sales force, which are distributors. That's their client. When we're talking about end users as a distributor client, not so much. Common SKU, which I allude to a second ago, you guys have done a great job with presentation tools and things like that. Facilis does a great job with things like that. A lot of innovation there, but it's not enough. There's still the same way we've presented products. I think that, that, that's one. From an operations technology perspective, I think we're seeing it a lot, especially with companies like you and things like Probo Standards. But again, I think not enough. We are— I still joke with people when I explain the industry in which I am employed that we are kind of like Mad Men except without really snappy outfits and cocktails at lunch hour. Most of the time. Um, we're still, still distributors that run paper manila folders across offices. We still hear phrases like camera-ready art. We're not there yet, uh, and hopefully we will. And then I think you said, I think last week, e-commerce. I think the biggest, you know, distributors are scared of e-commerce, right? They are, they fear foreign print, they fear seeing that on TV, whereas I think I think all three of us would agree. I don't want to speak for anybody here. I'll speak for Kirby, but I won't speak for you, Bobby. But I know Kirby would agree that I think we agree a lot. A rising tide lifts all boats. And when we see those, uh, commercials for 4imprint, that's giving the entire industry visibility. That's a good thing in my opinion. But I don't think people understand, especially distributors, understand how they can employ e-commerce as an additional revenue stream, not to replace what you feel comfortable doing and you think your secret sauce is, but it can be an additional revenue stream for people who do want that Amazon-like experience. I want to click and buy, I just don't, I don't want to deal with them. And that's okay, you can make a ton of money doing that, you can make a ton of money doing that. So I think the biggest challenge is they don't understand really how do I, how do I make this part of my business and not have it envelop my whole business, thereby I'm now competing on price with 4imprints.

Yeah, Kirby.

Yeah, in this, I was conflicted about my answers on this, but as I'm listening to Bill, it's kind of coagulating my thoughts. So I think when I look at these areas, I think that the level of innovation is driven by two places. It's by suppliers and by end users. I'm only speaking for me. I'm sure there are more innovative distributors out there. But when I think of, you know, operations technology and the promo standards of the world, Those are the folks who are doing so much more of that. And obviously, CommonSKU, you are making it easier to, to manage orders and things like that. And then the e-commerce piece, you know, the tools have become out there, but I think it's because end users are demanding that they don't go through an entire presentation, pick the color, pick the item, and then realize it's out of stock. And then, hey, I want to have that Amazon experience, so I want to have my own company store. So suppliers are, I think, doing most of the investing in my experience, but it's because end users are sort of demanding or requesting it. On the other hand, I think to Bill's point, those of us in the middle, when we need to appreciate and show a little piece of gratitude for the folks who are doing that work, and then number 2, not put our heads in the sand and decide that we want to do business the same way we've always done it. I think the ones who are coming out on the other side are the ones who are like, okay, I'm going to try. A common SKU shop. I'm gonna try to build this thing, and it may not go perfect the first time, and it— there's going to be— understand there's going to be a learning curve, because every time you do something the first time, you're probably going to suck at it. Being willing to do that in a way so that you can quickly get better at it and add that piece of business, like Bill said, that's going to add to your bottom line but also add to the experience where customers actually come to you for that sort of thing— I think those who are willing to lean in on that come out stronger on the other side.

You know, it's ironic. Suppliers have done a great job providing marketing tools both to distributors and to the end user at the same time. And what we're, we're seeing in B2B research in general is that the B2B buyer is demanding more and more self-serve tools.

Yeah.

So things like the portals. And I asked, and I asked Dale Denham this question. I said, what do you think is the biggest trend happening in the industry? And he mentioned shops. I don't mention shops just because we sell shops. I think it's, it's just been an astonishing interesting number to see grow. I mean, July— Kirby, you and I were talking about this— the 3 Js in the industry were always our slowest months. July was the biggest month we've had for shops yet. So there's interesting embrace happening, and perhaps we serve, you know, maybe a more progressive side of the market. But it's what's— the gap where B2B buyers are demanding more digital self-serve has to be filled.

Well, and I think what you're seeing is that the customer is saying, look, Again, I was just listening to this on Delivering Marketing Joy, the podcast that I do. The gal that I had on there, Deanna Shimoda, was saying that 73% of customers want to get all the way through the sales funnel without dealing with a salesperson. And so utilizing and embracing those tools so that you're giving them access to everything they want until it's time to actually push the button is, I think, Powerful. Yeah.

There's a reason why large grocery stores are doing away with people scanning your items and they're almost fully self-serve. Your audience is telling you what they want. It's a shame on us if we're not listening.

Yeah, we've all three been at this a while to see probably some really astonishing trends happen with the receptivity of merch in culture in general. From the consumer standpoint, from B2B, doesn't matter. The B2B consumer and the B2C customer are the same. How have you seen the impact of merch affect the public at large, both negative and positive? Bill, let's start with you.

Yeah, I think the one thing that stuck on my mind when you were talking about that is with the proliferation of collaborations, both that make sense and both that make me go, I don't understand this at all. But yet I'm looking at it, right? So, you know, there are some that are actual functional and they try to make it functional. There's some are just clickbait and and gosh darn it if they don't work. So I think that bodes very well for our industry. You know, when we got in the industry, and I'll speak for me, when I got in it 23 years ago, gosh, I'm old, but when I got in 23 years ago, we were this redheaded stepchild of marketing. And I get to say that 'cause I do have redheaded twin boys. But you know, we were this kind of, oh shit, what are we giving away at the trade show next week? That was our marketing. Now we are really, we've elevated. PPAI has done a fantastic job over the last decade. Really elevating us. And so I think the future is very, very good, but only for the distributors that are really trying to create that overall experience. There are still many distributors out there and still making a decent living putting logos on things. Those days are almost over, if they're not over already. Yeah, that we used to joke, all of us in this industry used to joke when we would go to a trade show, we're jaded, we don't see the magic and all that. Our audience is now aware that it's not that hard to put a phone number or a logo on a pen. It's not the magic it was 5, 10 years ago. So if you're not working continually to create that magic, you are going to be left behind. But I think the future for our industry is rock solid.

Yeah.

Kirby? Yeah, I think that in— I think Bill and I've talked about— I think Bobby, you and I have talked about this separately. One of the benefits, for lack of a better term, of the pandemic was that it showcased the the need, the desire to do quality merch, right? You know, it doesn't make sense to spend $25 to ship a 5-cent pen. And so I felt like there was a real shift in, okay, well, if we're going to do this, let's go ahead and do it right now. So I think that elevated our industry in the conversation of marketing and advertising, in culture. Like, it really, I think, made a big difference through there. Now, the one thing that's the caveat— so I'd say that's a real positive. The caveat is we need to continue that work as an industry. It is really easy for us to go, yeah, okay, everything's fine now. Let me sell you some cheap shit. And we, we have to fight that urge. I understand that, you know, sometimes that we want to go inexpensive, but it doesn't have to be crappy. And so I think spending that time to educate our customers, to help them do a better job of representing their own brand, if we as an industry can continue to do that, it will serve the entire industry well.

Go ahead.

No, I was totally great. Just, I was, I was verbally applauding.

This— here's a great Mark Graham question. Okay. This is, this is a fun one. What industry topic in the past 12 months has divided the two of you the most on your podcast?

I'm going to say lists. Yeah. So, yeah. So Bill, now I will say I want to, I want to back him up on this. So too, so I am, I love lists. I think they're fun. I think they're interesting. I think they're fodder. I don't really care. Like, I, I actually like the fact that many of the times I disagree with them. Um, Bill has, I, I think, talked a lot about it here recently where it's like he just doesn't like sort of ranked list where it's, where it's, um, it's kind of subjective. I, and I, Bill, I want to back you up here. So I, Promo Pulse just put out their top content providers or whatever. And it was fascinating, Bobby, that, um, the, the next day there was comments about it. It was very positive, whatever. But the next day Jason said, look, Jason Noakes from PromoPaul said, this is exactly how I come up with the list. Here's the metrics, here's the why. And I will say it was satisfying to understand that. So to Bill's— to back up Bill's point, I think that there is value in that. But I really, I just enjoy all the lists.

Yeah, too many lists, Bobby, too many lists. Boy, I sounded very Trumpian there. It's the worst deal we've ever had. Um, no, here's— I don't mind lists when they're ranked, and I'm talking specifically about ranked lists. I don't mind ranked lists when there's data and metrics behind it. Largest sales volume, of course that can be fudged, but you get my point. Same thing with, with, uh, Jason Nokes' list. It's the, the lists that are ranked that are, well, we're throwing what we interpret as creative, or we interpret as innovative, or we interpret as this. When, when it's ranked and there's not tangible, uh, specific data, I don't, I don't like the rankings. Now, I love lists when, for example, greatest places to work comes out. I'll use that as an example. That's just listed alphabetically, so I don't really care what the metrics are. It's where I get divisive on it is when it's ranked for silly reasons, and it's just for, for us to talk about.

So, right, but you know, which is what we're doing.

So there we go. Exactly.

All right, so another great Mark Graham question: what's one opinion you held about the industry 10 years ago that you now realize was wrong? Kirby, let's start with you. Yeah, sure.

So I, I think 10 years ago I thought that there would never be a supplier and a distributor that were owned by the same whether they, whether the supplier came over or whatever. I felt like that that was an incredibly divisive way to do business. I actually still think that to a degree. But do I think that could happen? Yeah, I think it could happen.

I thought by now there would be several large unnamed suppliers that would have eschewed the traditional business model of going through the middleman of distributors and they would go direct very publicly to end users. I still think that'll happen. But it hadn't happened yet. I also thought I'd see some exclusive deals between specific suppliers and specific distributors, thereby giving distributors kind of that, uh, we're the only ones that have this type of product or this exact product, but we haven't seen that. But those, those are the two I thought of.

Interesting. Okay, both very similar. Let's switch now to content trends, because we all work in the world of content. We love this world. It's something that we love and agonize over. Um, straw poll. Where do you consume most of your content now? Kirby, start with you.

YouTube's number one. TikTok is the fastest growing for me.

For you personally, that's where you—

for me, that's just me personally. YouTube by far. It's— I mean, it's— there's not a close second. That's where I go to do research. That's where I go to be entertained. But I will say that now that I'm sharing more on TikTok, boy, it sucks you in.

Yeah. Bill, how about you?

I am not a ticker or a talker. I am a podcast guy. So really, podcasts. I go down avenues avenues and deep roads and try to find podcasts that not only entertain me on when I want to not think of work, but also help educate me when I am thinking about work. So I'm a podcast guy.

Yeah. Okay. Are you both using AI right now in some of your content? If so, how? Kirby?

Yeah, for me, it's— there's a couple of things. Number one is ideation. Hey, give me this many ideas about this topic and then I create from there. And then the other piece is, you know, as a company, ChatGPT will be saying, okay, because we do the digital marketing and social media and stuff like that for other companies, man, it's hard not to sound the same with every post. So we'll use ChatGPT and some of those tools to be like, okay, help me write a post that means this, just to give it a fresh voice. We always are putting our own flavors on it, but those are the two places that I find we're using it almost on the daily.

Yeah, I find I do, and I find I use ChatGPT almost as a thesaurus. These days, as opposed to going, I use, okay, I want to say this, but in a different way, help me. And then that spurs the ideation. So it's very similar to Kirby. It's ideation. I also use, I will say, on the graphic side of it, I use Midjourney on a daily basis, both for clients and for the content that we do here at Brandivate. It's become my own personal stock photo. I don't have to go searching for you know, weird-looking office people looking strangely happy in a place they shouldn't be that happy. I can create my own. And it's been an incredible tool to, for me and my clients. Absolutely.

You're both working in content of the various content practices you deploy for business, whether it's, you know, both between Brandevate and Hausemann. Are you, where are you seeing the biggest impact? Are you seeing in newsletters? Are you seeing in YouTube? Are you starting to crank up more short-term form video? Like, where are you seeing big returns and big impact? Or maybe that's a little dramatic, but just returns or impact. Kirby?

Shorts, shorts, shorts, shorts. So, and again, you guys know Monday Minute, DMJ, promo up front. Love that. We get value in all of those. In the last couple of months, probably 3 months, I've started ramping up shorts that I can go across platforms. So I keep them at 60 seconds, put the captions on.. So I'm on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, you know, like you name it. I'm going across those platforms and the feedback I've gotten on those has been really, really good. It's literally the kind of stuff where people are actually physically coming up to me in person and going, hey, I really like that specific video. And I haven't had that in a long time. Yeah. The other thing that's interesting is this sort of that same piece of content across platforms. One day on Facebook that'll go crazy and no one cares on YouTube. The opposite happens the next day. And so the volume of Shorts that you need to get has been, that's been eye-opening for me.

Yeah. Bill, how about you?

For me, it's a bit of a cross because I, you know, we do the podcast, which is obviously a marketing vehicle for Brandivate. I do a blog every Monday, obviously another, you know, but that's writing. That's reading people actually reading and engaging. The Beverage of the Week is now a video, a short video. So I agree there. I think for me it's variety. I don't think it's one or the other. So I'm answering your question in the way of a politician. I'm not really answering it. Um, I think it's variety though. I think people want variety. Uh, they crave it. I know I do. I try to give— create content the way I consume it. I get bored hearing the same thing and seeing the same thing over and over again. So I figure if I'm bored, there's got to be a lot of people bored. So to me it's variety because I find, like Kirby, I find value in all of them.

Yeah. As running, running businesses, we want one answer and there is not one answer when it comes to content, unfortunately. What do you both— this may be a really dumb question because it might be obvious as we're sitting here, but what do you enjoy working on the most? Because I think that has a profound impact on what a distributor creates. I always talk to the distributor about when they talk about getting into content, I start with what they enjoy. Like, what is it? What do they enjoy themselves? Because they'll tend to gravitate toward it and accomplish it first. Kirby, what about you?

Yeah, I think one of my favorite pieces of content to do each week is Promo Upfront with Bill. It's— not only is it like a little bit of a therapy session because my buddy and I get to talk, but we laugh. And like, there are times where I'm not in a great mood. I think, Bill, you'd agree. We come and we're both grumpy, and then we kind of put on that persona and do it, and I leave in a better mood. So that's for sure. I find that writing is therapeutic still for me. And so what I'll do is put some things down on paper and then I really am having fun with the shorts too. Like, again, because it allows me to try a bunch of crap. Like, hey, I like this idea and I've only got a minute to do it. And so that's been really fun for me lately too.

Yeah. Rather than emotionally investing in one big piece, you've got all of this. That's interesting. And the therapy thing we all get. Bill, how about you? How—

what do you enjoy?

Yeah, I love doing Promo Up Front with Kirby. You know, we've done a weekly podcast for darn near a little over 7 years now every week, and I couldn't ask for a better partner than Kirby. I've said that, uh, not any, any chance I get. Without, without Kirby, there isn't a promo up front. There just wouldn't be. Um, and so it is a therapy session, and I love the collaboration. I, I love the fact that neither one of us prepare for it. We just kind of show up and, and do that. And I think we're gonna do a crossover event here in the next week or so, so more on that to follow. But I love doing that as a collaborator. Individually, I have always used writing as a therapy, um, for me. And so my blog tends to be all over the map. Sometimes it is about business, sometimes it's about personal things I'm going through. It is absolutely catharsis for me. And, and without— and whether I publish it or not, I write almost every single day because that's what helps me remain centered, remain balanced, remain focused.

Final question, I'm asking this because really the community loves this question. We're all looking for insight like this. What's the most recent article, podcast, book? I know this is a regular question, but honestly, I love it What's the most recent article or podcast or book or video you've watched that really made a difference in how you work, how you live, or how you think?

Kirby. So the person who— and I follow a lot of folks, you know this— Seth Godin every day, Ed Mylett, there's a bunch of them. Alex Hormozi is a guy I've been following. He's about a 33-year-old entrepreneur who has had $100 million exits. Man, that guy is thoughtful. He's got a podcast called The Game. That comes out a couple times a week. Um, I find every time I listen to it, I'm like, man, that's like— he is so wise beyond his years. I've, I've found him to be amazing. He has a book called $100 Million Offers that is powerful, and he's got a new book coming out here. And again, I have nothing in it, but a new $100 Million Leads that I like— I think it comes out like in a week or so. I'm gonna buy it the moment it comes out. So he's one of those voices that that is impacting me right now.

That's cool.

Bill, how about you? Um, I just recently read a book by one of my favorite reality stars, Anthony Mediciore, who used to host a show called Hotel Impossible, where he would go in as a hotelier and help renovate these small mom-and-pop hotels. And I always found— I like those type of shows, I find them fascinating. And he wrote a great book called, um, gosh, what's the name of it, what's the name of it, uh, Show Up. And in it he talks about 5 steps about getting out of your own way, and that's something I struggle with. And it really resonated with me. It was a quick read, but it was a good read. And my biggest takeaway from it was, well, there's a lot of big takeaways, but biggest one is don't sweat the small stuff, obsess over the small stuff. And I really, really, really love that. So Anthony Melacciore, Show Up. Love that book.

I love that. I always say when Mark and I are putting on events, we always joke that there are no details. Really, it's everything. Everything is, you know, Bill and Kirby Jerry, you have made such an impact on this business. I love your show Upfront. We are doing a crossover, which I mentioned in the intro, and so Mark and I'll be joining you on that show.

I can't wait because that's your, your show format is fantastic.

It's fun. It's energizing. I love it. And thank you for making such a profound impact on this community and on the industry, my friends. You impress me both and amaze me.

Thank you.

You're too kind. You're very too kind. Thank you so much, Bobby.

Honor to be here.

Thanks, Bob.

Money. You bet. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of SkuCast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing to SkuCast on iTunes or to our blog at community.com and Sku www.youtube.com. Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening.