Episode 314: Numo + Created Co, a chat with Jim Martin, Jeremy Moss, and Ryan Schneider

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. SkewCast is the official podcast of Common Skew.

If you walk into the coolest local craft coffee shop in your market, the likelihood is high that you'll see coffee ware and insulated drinkware on the shelves from our guests today, Jeremy Moss and Ryan Schneider, who started Created Co. in 2015. Created Co. is a distinctly different brand. They are not your average drinkware company. They are known and respected by the craft coffee coffee community for their artistry and product. Fast forward a few years, and Jeremy and Ryan with Creative Co. and Numo's Jim Martin found one another. Two strong and proven but disruptive brands who both have an affinity for making cool products for discerning buyers. Now, we see a lot of brands enter our industry, but there's something about this that feels a little different, and perhaps it's the way they approach their partnership, which is what we talk about today. Hi friends, I'm Bobby LeHew, Chief Content Officer at Commenscue. Today's episode is courtesy of us at Commenscue. We are the work-from-anywhere platform that powers your connected workflow, enabling you to process more orders and dramatically grow your sales. Over 800 distributors have trusted us to fuel their team's growth and to make the messy and complex parts of this business, from CRM to shops to order management, simple and delightful. To learn more, visit commonskew.com. Now here's my chat with Jim Martin from Numo and Ryan Schneider and Jeremy Moss from Created Co.

Thank you guys for being here. Ryan, you have a massive and highly respected brand in the craft coffee community, like 42,000 followers on IG. Jeremy, you guys have the most distinct drinkware in some of the coolest coffee shops across the country. For those that are new to your brand in the promo space, how would you define who you are and how do you talk about your brand, Ryan?

Yeah, great question. I'm actually here in New York City and there's a coffee shop just down the street that's carrying some of our drinkware. To be able to see that in that setting was pretty, pretty cool. But we started the brand in 2015 and with the purpose of bringing people together over coffee. It's what inspired us. A lot of Jeremy and I's conversations was always over a cup of coffee at our local specialty coffee shop. In Costa Mesa, and it seemed like everybody in our area had a lifestyle apparel brand, but we're like, what if we create a brand and our product offering is drinkware and it's, we use vessels to bring people together. And that was how it all unfolded. And then one thing that happened was we, our friends were artists. And so we wanted to also put art on mugs and sell it on our website to the consumer. And so that's how it all started. It wasn't like we immediately were working in the craft coffee industry, but we did start with mugs as our, as our offering at the time.

You have this beautiful design aesthetic, and we'll of course link to everything in the show notes. And Jeremy, how did you, when you started out, you wanted to create something distinctly beautiful because your drinkware is distinctly beautiful. How did the brand evolve from when you first started, sat over that first cup of coffee to where you're at today? Give us a little glimpse of the journey that you've had.

Yeah, it definitely has evolved. You can see that we even have a timeline on our website that kind of shows where we started to where we're at today. And kind of how Ryan mentioned, we did start as that lifestyle brand where we were presenting designs and things like that on mugs. And at the same time, specialty coffee was booming, right? And so some cafes and roasters in our area had actually ended up reaching out to us and asking, hey, can you like help us develop some product for our merchandise lineup for retail? And so we started doing that and then slowly but surely, as we were working with more cafes, more roasters, we kept getting this question of, do you guys have cappuccino cups? Do you have latte cups? And we kept having to say no because we didn't have them. And so that put us on a journey of developing our, our own line of that vitrified collection, multiple styles, sizes, colorways, specifically created with the specialty coffee beverage in mind. So that was the second evolution of the brand. And then of course COVID happens and no one's sitting in a cafe. No one's able to sit in a cafe and drink from these beautiful wares that we've created. And so we're sitting on the sidelines starting to ask ourselves, what are we going to do now? And you could still drink from travelware and people were still doing that. So rather than sitting on our hands, Ryan and I looked at each other and asked ourselves, some of those questions that you don't really have much time for when you're a scrappy startup, but things like, what are our core competency? Like, who's our customer base? What do they need? And so we decided to double down in the drinkware category and space. And that led to the development of the vacuum insulated collection, the travel line. And we specifically honed in on the iced coffee and cold brew movement. That was something that was booming, really exploding at the time. And we launched the cold cup that went over very well. And yeah, that's how it's evolved. And so we launched that at the end of 2021 and it was accepted widely in the coffee community and now both are back. So people are drinking from ceramics again and, and moving about the country with our travelware. So it's been a nice ad for us.

It sounds like you have three kinds of divisions. You have the retail, you have cafeware. So what the, these awesome coffee shops are using as their utensils and what they're in their cafeware in their shops. And then now you've entered the branded merch space. Are those, do I have that right? Those three kind of areas?

We were doing also branded merch space in the branded merch space also prior. These items were also being retailed in the shelf, diner mugs, things like that. Even people would also even retail the Ventrified product as well. But definitely with the new stainless category, you're seeing way more branded merchandise happening within the coffee category. So that's pretty, pretty neat to see. Yeah.

Jim, you saw something really special and created— you do not just partner lightly, let's put it that way. You're very particular, incredible design eye. What is it that you saw and created that made you think this is going to be an exciting, cool category to bring to the industry?

I think initially we actually were doing some diner mugs for them, some of our colored diner mugs, and we've been working with them for a number of years. And really when they developed that cafe line of vitrified ceramic stuff that was designed for coffee shops specifically, the kind of thought that went in behind what they did, and you could tell, and how it was perfectly purpose-built for their audience, it was something that that it intrigued us for sure. It really caught our eye. We understood that not only were the— was it just— and by the way, it's just these two dudes in Southern California. They have a really good team, but it's these two dudes in Southern California figuring all this out as they go along. So not only did they have this incredible, almost aspirational customer base, but they, from a design standpoint, but they also had the ability to bootstrap it and be super scrappy and what they actually produced is gorgeous, perfectly in line with their audience, and it just was— we've been big fans for quite a while. And so then when we started talking about stainless stuff, it was an opportunity. What was said earlier, that the vitrified café mugs can only— they only have so many applications in a promotional space, but the stainless stuff, it's just spot fricking on. And The links that these guys go to in terms of design and product design is— In our industry, lots of people that get close enough, you know what I mean? It's pretty stuff. It's close enough. They may walk a trade show in Asia. They pick out something that's pretty, but agonizing over every last little detail is something that I think these guys do really well. Beyond all of that, they have this body of knowledge that they've built over the years to really understand how to apply why, how to be meticulous, where to be meticulous, and how the end product is greater than the sum of its parts, right? So I think everything that runs through their packaging, through their color palette, through the actual shapes that they're picking and developing, it was pretty easy for us to think that it would, if we had the opportunity, that we'd love to be able to partner with them.

Yeah, this design-first ethos is something you both share very well, very strongly. Ryan, what is it you saw in Numo? What made you think of, Jeremy, feel free to answer this too, what did you, what made you think, you know what, Numo is the exact partner for us in this?

Yeah. Just like you got to see recently when you visited Texas, right? Hardworking. They get after it. They do things different. You see a lot of things in the promotional industry. Everyone's, they look the same. And when you see New Mouth, it's completely different from the colorways to the creativity. It's, they're not just going to do status quo. Even so, Jim talked about the diner mugs and the diner mug was like our hot seller, but what Jim was doing with the diner mug, he had it in 10 colorways.. And this was like those bright, beautiful kind of pastel colors. And nobody was doing that in the, in the industry at the time. Right. And we actually brought that to the coffee industry and people, they grabbed onto it. And it was things like that. I'm like, this is the right partner. He's willing to take risks. He's willing to do things different. And so that's to me, you know, a few reasons why we wanted to partner with them. Also, we have great partnership with Jim, just easy to connect with. There's natural chemistry. It's never felt like forced. Anytime you're working with somebody, it could be an artist, it could be somebody in business, you want to be able to go to dinner with them, have a drink, have a good meal together, and it's just natural, right? Talk about life, talk about business. And so just all those different things there. And yeah, he's been nothing but supportive of us, our brand in the past, and also where we're headed. So it's, that's who you want in a partner. So yeah, it's cool. Definitely excited about what's happening with Nemo.

And then, yeah, Jeremy, how about you? Yeah, just to piggyback on that, if I were just to say one word, it was a bit of, it was a culture fit, you know, just meeting with Jim over the years and being able to riff with him and just have these natural conversations. It was very clear that Numo cares about creative. They care about design. We care about creative. We care about design. Like you've mentioned at the top of the call, Jim does have a really great design eye. So I think we have a mutual respect for one another in that way. And not everybody in the industry does have that or have those things. So to have that emphasis on craftsmanship, and as he mentioned, we do take a very painstaking look at the design process. And sometimes you got to have a good deal of patience when you're dealing with that. So I think there is definitely the patience on his side and there's just that mutual respect for one another that we both, we see what each other are doing and have that respect for each other in what we do.

I like how all three of you laughed when you said that about obsessing over the design, because you all know you've traded the million emails and all the different prototypes and everything else going back and forth.

We're getting better. We're getting better over here.

Yeah, but that's what makes you both craftsmen and artisans. Go ahead, Jim.

And I do just want to say that this is not— this is years of us feeling each other out and being like, what if, maybe, I don't know, and finally figuring it all out is not something Speaking back to, we don't do this a lot, and the reason why we don't do it a lot is because I don't— along the lines of what Jeremy said, we really just don't find many people that we'd like to. We don't find many people that we have so much in common with from— in all aspects of things. It's not just we like pretty things, it's that we also are willing to do the work to figure out how to make pretty things. And then sometimes we finish each other's sentences when we're thinking about stuff. So it's good, but it's not something that happened we— I didn't send them an email, or they sent us an email, and 3 months later, here we are. Yeah, look at us. It's been a long process.

Yeah, yeah, a lot of years.

Yeah.

How does— Jim, you can probably best answer this, but anyone feel free to comment— how does created— this partnership created a new— represents a new kind of category buyer that seems to defy the— seem— this oversaturated market? Like, it's a category that somebody wouldn't say, oh, that's the category we should get into, but this is different. And I— and part of it has to do with the elevated aspect of your design and the mugs themselves, but Jim, how would you answer that?

I think the specialty coffee world is— I've used the term aspirational, and I think everybody has their— with the ubiquity of the big coffee brands in the world, Starbucks created this whole look at a mug that we're selling and whatever, right? And it left this vacuum for these small coffee shops and roasters that are doing it right, that are not over-roasting their beans, that are doing that are concerned about what their store looks like and have this ethos that sets them apart from others. I think these guys with what they did with their vitrified stuff really tapped into that, like I said earlier. I think that in the promo space, these are the stores and the coffee shops that the ideal end-user buyer is going to every morning. Starbucks is not it. They're going to their local high-end, amazing, beautiful coffee shop. And then they're seeing the brand, and the branding is so intrinsic to what these coffee shops are doing. And the ware that those stores are selecting is their ware, the created ware. And so I think what it does is— the hope is, and what's proven itself out a little bit is that These end users are seeing that and then it's resonating when a promotional products distributor is able to actually present and sell that same stuff that they're seeing in their local coffee shop. So I think that to me, I think is the best application. It's a little bit nuanced and it's a little bit subtle. I guess what I'm trying to say is those coffee shops are picking what these guys are doing for a reason. And then those end users, are picking up on why those coffee shops are picking what these guys are doing. So I think that kind of creates that little bit of a space and a little bit of a market that is— it's very different than opening up your traditional promo drinkware supplier's catalog and flipping through and saying, "Oh, that looks fine." This is a little bit more curated, a little bit more definitely elevated. We think there's a definite there's a play there for it in the promotional product space.

So for sure, Jeremy or Ryan, either you want to tackle that question before I move on. You're fine. Jim just knocked it out of the park.

Yeah, he did. I'll just, yeah, I think it all kind of comes back to this word of craftsmanship. And that's, as we mentioned, that's like the culture fit between our companies and what Inwin created. And there's that like famous story of Steve Jobs where cares about what even the inside of the computer looked like. It sounds insane, but he took that level of like craft and care. And not that it were Apple, we're always trying to look at it and take like the craftsmanship approach and really care a great deal. And so not everybody does that. And I think that there is something that when you hold a product that does take that level of care and consideration that you can tell the difference. And it might not even be something that you're necessarily cognizant of. It really does make a difference in your day-to-day when you have a product and feel it that way.

Yeah. Who's saying— Go ahead, Jim.

And I do want to just pile onto that one. What's important is that their target market and their core, if you want to talk craft. There's nothing more— when I say this, I don't mean derogatory— hipster craft artisanal focus than a coffee roaster, right? And someone who hangs a shingle to pull shots at a local market is all about what goes into making their coffee, right? And roasting their beans and doing all of that. And they don't want to associate with anything that's not authentic because of all the care that they put into what they do. And so I think that These guys, I've actually attended, I went to a show and watched them do their thing early on, and the reception that they have is so, it's just real, right? All these roasters are coming by and they're their homies, right? They're not their vendor. They're along for the ride with all of them. Hell, I think y'all had Jimmy Butler pulling shots in a booth once, right? And I don't know if you know, but Jimmy Butler, they told me, I didn't know this before and they probably wouldn't mention it. But he's this huge coffee nerd. And during COVID like when they were in the bubble, he like basically opened a coffee shop in the bubble for these NBA players. He is obsessed with fricking coffee. And of course, end up pulling shots in a trade show booth for these guys. I don't know if I should have shared that or not.

No, no. Yeah. Jimmy, we do all of his drinkware for his brand. It's a— and he cares about those details, design, quality, all those things. If you check out his brand at all, it's like They don't skimp out on anything, packaging, details, website, beans.

That happened organically. It didn't happen because of any sort of dumb modern commercial arrangement. It just happened.

And organic relationship.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

That's even, we're out here in New York City right now doing things in the coffee industry. It's, that's like where we sit and that's, it might not be like this mass market thing., but we, for years and years, we've been showing up, supporting the industry, connecting with the baristas, and really not just saying we're community-oriented, but really actually coming alongside people, boots on the ground, whether it's a barista, whether it's a, somebody at origin, a farm that's bringing in green coffee to the US, then to the roaster, and the buying person that's buying the merchandise. So it's this whole circle that we're connected to within the coffee industry, and it's been pretty cool.

Yeah, that's amazing. I am talking to you, all three of you, and realizing that you're all obsessives. There's no such thing as details because everything's important. It's a pretty— I could see that relationship between the three of you and how you came together. There are, Jim, 4 products in the collection currently through Numo: 2 tumblers, a mug, and a cup. Are there plans to expand?

We did actually in January launch a larger cold cup and a smaller tumbler, and the roadmap that these guys have is freaking awesome. So I am so stoked about it and I'm so excited about it. They have got some really cool stuff up their sleeves and it's going to be great.

The colorways are beautiful. We've talked about this before, Jim. I was just mentioning this to you before about Numo and for Created and your brand. There's just some really beautiful colorways. Are you seeing more color trends like this become high demand in craft coffee space? Like, how can you— who can speak to color trends, where they're at and where they're going?

Yeah, we just did a really deep dive on color just in these last 60 days and just seeing what's happening out in the marketplace. We're currently, but also even going into 2025 and it is really interesting to see where the market's going. And there's a nostalgic play right now happening. There's people want comfort, escape the chaos of life, and they want, I don't know, it's interesting. So I, we're really excited about color. There is a huge opportunity in the craft coffee space. I think even just the market as a whole. I think color makes people happy. It makes them feel something. And I think we're definitely trying to find that right balance that feels true to the brand, but also maybe push a little bit and take some risks with color. So yeah, we're excited about color and we have some really cool things that we're planning.

Beyond color, Jeremy, are there other trends happening in the craft coffee space, in the drinkware space that we should be aware of that you are looking forward to? Not that you're going to just spill everything that you've got coming up, down the road, but a little glimpse into the future.

Sure. I can tell you a couple of things, both that we're doing now. And then also I think some of the trends that we do see, we're dropping, we actually are just dropping a spring summer color drop. So that is live and also will be available at Numo as well. So we're doing a quick little color selects that'll drop them for spring summer. We did the sage green, a loquat yellow, and a royal blue that look in merchandise really nicely together. Really, they're really beautiful. I think the obvious trend is the 40-ounce mega mug that's out there. In terms of that, we have been slow in that and slightly trepidatious, I think. We just launched an 8-ounce tumbler.

Wait, time out, time out. Are you saying basically you're being drug into this? You sound very resistant to this whole gallon drinkware thing.

Speak more to that.

Yeah.

We just want to be true to who we are. We've been in craft beverage, craft coffee, or craft beer, craft wine, any of those kind of categories or places. And there's not really an application for that for us. And so it's easy to chase, I think. And we've just slowed our roll and just been like, hey, people in our— from where we are in specialty coffee and in the craft beverage community, they're drinking a cappuccino from an 8-ounce mug and they love it. And yeah, that's probably— that may not reach the masses, but it's who we are and it's where we do. Now, that's not to say maybe we'll never do it, but today it just didn't feel like it was the right fit for our brand despite the trends.

Right.

And yeah, and yeah, we've got some ideas that we're working on.

So yeah, right. Ryan, any other thoughts on that? No one's saying— I mean, You guys are being gentlemen. No one's saying the word Stanley, but we all know what we're talking about. So I'll be the one to say it. Ryan, what are your thoughts on that?

No, honestly, kudos to them. Very impressive. I don't think anyone could have seen that item on the shelf or in the marketplace and thought that's going to be the next water bottle that takes over the entire category, right? You just never know. And I think it's also just one of those things that with design, there's things that could just catch fire or it resonates and then it goes viral and things like that. So I think there is, there's an appetite now for that size of a water bottle. Maybe it's comfortability, all those different things. So I think we're going to, we're going to ride that fine line, but we do have some products that we are going to be coming out with. Maybe it's not going to be 40 ounces, but you did ask a question if what other trends are we seeing? And that's actually, we'll go to one of the products that we, this is actually the first place we'd be really going to talk about it. So you, yeah, which is exciting. It's going to be, we're launching a new tumbler. It's called the Nomad, and it's going to be ceramic lined. And that is actually a very big trend that's been happening in the coffee space. Vacuum insulation, 18/8 stainless, but this will be ceramic lined. So it basically will not change the taste of the coffee. And in our world of coffee, that's a big thing, right? So people, there's a thing called cupping coffee and you're tasting and trying to get certain profiles and notes and all that. And so now when you transfer it to one of our tumblers, Nothing's going to change. There'll be no metallic taste to taste the pureness of the coffee. So that's actually launching very shortly. So the Nomad Tumbler, it's going to be in 3 different sizes. Another 8-ounce. We have a thing for the 8-ounce, 12-ounce, and a 16-ounce. And it's going to have 3 interchangeable lids. Love it.

Thank you for announcing that here. That's exciting news.

I love it.

As you are all 3 talking, I'm sure distributors are doing this. They're thinking of those buyers of theirs that have discernible intentional taste.

Yeah.

And that's what we're talking about with this. Before we go to our final round of questions here around just entrepreneurial advice, Jim, is there anything else you want to add in terms of the Numo partnership, anything we've covered so far that I may have left out?

I don't think so, other than I do think that distributors should open their eyes when they're getting coffee and pay attention to what's going on in the shops and the stores where they are, because I think that— and I've seen it, and I've seen it in, in the smart distributors that are doing that are able to take what is the stupid— I won't say stupid, that's not the right word. The age-old, oh, I want something retail, I want something retail. When you're getting your coffee, if you open up your eyes and look and see what's going on around, you can accomplish that and really understand what that end user is wanting because chances are your first meeting might be in that same flipping coffee shop. And advice for all distributors, I think, would be to pay attention to those things that are pretty around them and understand Who is represented there? Yeah, I don't know.

Maybe this goes back to us encouraging our customers to do what they do in their personal lives, which is invest in things that are going to last and that have meaning and intention. So that's a big part of that, I think, as well. Oh yeah. Jeremy and Ryan, since we're talking to an audience of entrepreneurs, you have been on quite a journey sitting over a cup of coffee, building a company that's going to serve the craft coffee community. What do you— what would you say, Ryan? And then we'll go to you, Jeremy. If you were to sit down and have that cup of coffee with a new entrepreneur in the business, and I'm sure this has happened to you many times already, where— what advice would you have for folks? We're talking to distributors and agencies. There are a lot of solo entrepreneurs who are very aspirational in our audience as well as large agencies. What advice would you have based on your journey, Ryan? If you said, you know what, if there's one thing I'm going to share with you, it's going to be this.

Yeah, I would say trust your gut. I would say being an entrepreneur, entrepreneurship, I would say it's not really calculated. In my opinion. It's sometimes risk is that you can weigh the risk, but sometimes you gotta take the jump and trust your gut. And that's how I would say we, we took a jump, right? It's like we didn't really know what we were doing. We didn't, I didn't go to school for this, anything like that. It was like I had a gut feeling about something. We stepped out and it's things start rolling, right? And it's this snowball effect and you just keep going. And so that would be my second thing is perseverance. There's going to be hard days. There's going to be days you want to quit. There's going to be days where people think you're crazy. Like how many people laughed at us that we sold mugs? Honestly, they're like, that's what you're doing with your life? Or whatever the case may be. They like, they couldn't put two and two together. It was like everybody we knew did mortgage, real estate, or some service-based industry. And it was like, they couldn't understand, they didn't understand the product world. And we got laughed at moments. And it was like, but I don't know, it's to me, it's trust your gut. And then also just, you know, you got to have perseverance to get through those hard times.

Yeah.

Jeremy, how about you? Yeah, not much more to add. I think there's a certain level of that comes along with the perseverance conversation and just like self-belief, just knowing that like, all right, like I, I do have what it takes. I can do this. That's very easy to get that kind of imposter syndrome that comes along and sits on your shoulder and tells you that you can't, or you shouldn't, or maybe this isn't a good idea, especially when you are designing products and doing things. There's that very vulnerable moment of hitting go. And letting something that you've built and created out into the world. And it does take a certain level of self-belief. And then there may be something that comes along that is difficult. And that's where that kind of perseverance comes in. And I think you sprinkle a little luck on top of those things and maybe you'll meet someone like Anumo along the way and you never know where things are going to develop and go and another customer comes along or something happens, but it's definitely, you've got to be passionate about what you're doing. Cause there's going to be moments that are tough. You got to believe that like you can do it. You got to have the grit to just persevere in those moments that are hard. And the highs are high and the lows are low. Overall, it balances out over time and you start to get your feet under you. And so those are some of the things that I would say to anyone who's the new entrepreneurs or folks that are looking to pursue on their own.

Thank you, Jim. You downplay your impact on this industry all the time, and I know you hate it when I throw you questions like this, but how would you answer that question? You're running an impressive massive organization, but it's different running a supplier business today than it was 5 years ago. How would you answer that question?

I think for us, we have a guiding principle and it's to make cool shit, period. I think that is something that persists throughout time and continues to present itself, right, in new and different ways, and as different things pop up be it what trend-wise, what decoration technology-wise. For us, that's the biggest challenge and it forever will be. It's that whole fear of staying relevant and how do we stay relevant and how do we ensure that for us, we've got a few people that work for us. Everybody that works with us, and I'd include some of like Jeremy and Ryan is kind of part of that same crew. We all have a little bit of a role to play, but that one kind of guiding principle for us is always to make cool shit. If we do that today, then I think that we were successful, and if we can work on trying to do that tomorrow, then that's a really good start for us. I don't know. It's really simple and it really distills down to that for us. So what was happening 5 years ago was the same thing that's happening right now, so for us.

I love that. I think that's a fantastic way to end this conversation because you were all, as I mentioned earlier, you'll hate some of these grandiose ideas, but artisans and craftsmen, and you really approach your business that way, and it's such— so refreshing to us. And we have so many discerning clients, and what's encouraging for us as distributors and agencies is that we're seeing the taste of our buyers elevate as well. And this is a perfect time for this category and a perfect time for the created numeral brand. So Ryan, Jeremy, Jim, thank you for joining us today to chat about it. Awesome.

Thank you so much.

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