Episode 333: The Real Sales Growth Unlock? Joy (A Chat with Matthew Dart, Blackfish)

Blackfish is an unapologetically boutique brand that focuses on a customer-obsessed experience as the bedrock for building growth. And on today's episode, I'm joined by founder Matthew Dart to talk about 3 things. Number 1, the disproportionate amount of attention we give to outbound sales versus the growth mechanism of creating joy for our customers. Number 2, the efficiency multiplier. And number 3, how to build a robust business without sacrificing the lifestyle you desire. Welcome to the SkewCast, the podcast for innovators and maverick thinkers in the promotional product space. My name is Bobby LeHew. I'm glad you're here. We just returned, as many of you have, from SkewCon and the PPAI Expo. And like you, we are energized for 2025. I don't know that I've ever felt the energy level as intense as I have talking with so many people who are optimistic about heading into the new year, which is why these events are so important. To inspire one another and learn from one another. And since gathering together for inspiration and learning is a crucial part of this, let me invite you to put a stake in the ground now for Q4 because we just opened up preregistration for SCU Camp held September 7th through 10th in sunny Scottsdale, Arizona at the beautiful Andaz Resort. Now, why should you preregister? Since SCU Camp always sells out, so many people want a first chance at tickets before they are open to the public. And preregistering gives you that option, plus you can save $100 on your ticket ticket if you pre-register. So if you want to get in on that early notification list, head on over to skucamp.com to pre-register today. That's skucamp.com, and we'll see you in Scottsdale. And by the way, if you want a great reason to attend Sku Camp, just keep listening. During our conversation, Matthew Dart from Blackfish shares a vital lesson he learned from attending Sku Camp Palm Springs. Here's our episode with Matthew.

Welcome, Matthew.

Bobby, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited.

So Matthew, let's talk about, uh, jump right into it and talk about building a brand. Because one of the things that you said to me, and one of the things I love about you, is you are like this fiercely honest person about the struggles and the wins in the business. And I'm paraphrasing this, but you said profits and growth come from satisfied customers. The reason why I'm bringing this up is I think we have an upside-down view of where growth comes from in our industry, where 80% 80% of business comes from existing business, usually 80 or 90 comes from, and we all know that referral is like the number one, like 85% of our business growth comes from referrals.

So can you unpack that a little bit more?

Well, yeah, I think within our industry and culture in general, there's a focus on business development and sales, right? So if you look at movies, Glengarry Glen Ross, Jerry Maguire, right? Yeah. Those movies, they're about sales. It's sexy. It's exciting. But I think in my experience, I've found that a focus on customer service, that the customer service experience and creating joy for your customers so that they're, they have enthusiasm to work with you. Yeah, that's the most important thing. And I think if you create a culture around, around service, around creating an easy process, a process that customers enjoy, so not just customer satisfaction, but customer enthusiasm, Yeah. Then you convert these clients. They not only become very loyal, but then they go out and they become your biggest advocates and promoters. And I think that's where my team has found the most success. And I'll take it a step back. I'm not a great business developer and I knew, I'm inherently pretty shy and I knew when I was starting my company that for us to be successful, I had to focus on my strengths and I think where I'm strongest is that customer service aspect. And so That's what I focus on. I think there are probably other companies that are very successful on the opposite end of the spectrum, but I would challenge them then to really dive into focusing on customer experience. And I think, you know, I think that's really important.

The reason why I love your answer is because I know this audience fairly well, and I know that the vast majority of them are folks who wouldn't call themselves first and foremost biz dev people. They would call themselves really great client managers and This is an encouraging message because some of us sit on these sort of mixed priorities and taking, creating, use the word in creating enthusiastic clients. I love that distinction between just like having good clients who love you or who are like you or appreciate your service, turning those into enthusiastic clients that actually drives organic growth. So in the end, for people like you, Matthew, that, that probably feels more intentional and authentic as opposed to, like you said, the Hollywood version of going out and landing the big fish and all those kinds of things. I don't think I'm alone in this and I'll shut up, but I think Steven Musgrave with Jenny Mark would agree with the same thing because he also helps his team try to grow organically through enthusiastic clients.

Yeah, I'd agree with that sentiment. I think at the end of the day, we're all people and we want to work with people that we trust, people that we like and people that we enjoy, right? It extends beyond just client relationships, obviously, the people you work with, your family, your friends. And so that's always been kind of my take on it is it's about the people, stupid. It's this, it's right. It's If we focus on this, we can have success here. And, you know, we do ask for referrals and when we're slow, you know, I, I do work my network. I, I get on LinkedIn and I do reach out and, and ask for introductions and, and try to set up meetings. So that is a component of it.

I want to get to that in a minute because I think that's a really important topic, the ups and downs and navigating those in the business. Do you have a client growth story you can share that sort of exemplifies where you talk about creating an enthusiastic client?

I've got more of like an industry growth story. So in the tech industry, and this goes back obviously further than the massive tech layoffs of last year, but in the tech sector, there's so much turnover. These startups, a lot of them, they don't last very long, and these people are going from company to company. And so if you look at a lot of these resumes, I mean, they're all over the place. They jump they jump around quite a bit. We've really grown considerably in the tech sector because when these clients leave, they take us with them and before they go, they introduce us and plug us into the team that's going to be taking over. So we see that turnover as an opportunity and it does create challenges and I've got peers in our industry that have, we've we've chatted about, you know, some of the challenges they, they encounter because of, of, you know, turnover within their, their, their customers or their, their clients' businesses. But I see it more as a, a net positive. I, I think it's an opportunity.

I totally agree. Industries are very close-knit communities. And so we found that true with oil and gas because the oil and gas industry was, is a very close-knit community. And because my distributorship was in Oklahoma City, we would have the exact same thing. You know, of course we'd panic when a buyer leaves, but then they'd go to work for, you know, another big oil company. And it was a, it was a great— we would never said that was our, our lead gen plan, but I'll bet if we were to look back at the numbers, we'd realize that we had more business growth that came from enthusiastic clients who'd left one brand to go work for another.

You're exactly right. And, and we used to do the same thing. I, I'm, I, you know, when I, when a client, an important client would leave, it would, you know, just throw our hands up.

Right.

What are we going to do now? You know?

Right, right, right.

But I, but I, I would challenge anybody to, to see it as a net positive Yeah. And communicate, have relationships with your clients. We have clients that give us the heads up all the time. Hey, I'm going to be leaving. We ask them, please make introductions. Let's make sure it's a smooth process and we would love to come along with you, you know, at your next company.

You're currently building or have built a brand book. Can you give us a little insight into what that is and what that's about?

Oh man, this is tough. Okay. So I think the last time we chatted, I mentioned I was building a brand book and some of my peers in the industry are going to listen to this and be Oh, I thought he completed that. Okay. I have not completed the brand book. It's gathering dust.

Hey, we, we all do it, man. We all do it.

Right. I think there's, there's many things I think with, with Blackfish, our website's a good example.

Right.

Right. It just keeps getting put on the back burner. But this podcast is, this, this episode's inspiring me, this process.

There you go.

There you go. To pick it back up, you know? Yeah.

But is, is the reason, part of the reason you're sort of trying to harness that though, is just trying to get your team aligned around certain talking points and certain brand priorities?

Yeah, I think the, for me it's about creating consistency across, we're a team of 5, so just creating consistency about the brand message and what we're all about. Yeah. And I think it's just reinforcing it. It, you know, the process of kind of preparing for this podcast, you know, it really gets me thinking about what's important to me, refocusing and recentering on what our intention is and what the goal is. And I think the brand book is a good way to kind of harness that, but also to communicate what we're all about to our clients as well.

And clarifying that, I mean, how— I'm sure included in that is like how you now define success for your team, which I'm assuming has a lot to do with those enthusiastic clients.

Yeah. You know, would you, you know, you asked me about this in an email, some of the topics you wanted to hit and, and it's success for my team and, you know, our company's success. It's not something, you know, we look at our numbers, right? And projections and hitting our numbers. And obviously that's important and that is a component of success. It is probably the primary component from a business perspective. But I think we are a lifestyle business. We've set up Blackfish to provide— well, I set it up to provide myself and my partner with a lifestyle that allows us to travel and have these experiences, these experience new cultures and new places. And that extends to the team as well. We want them to have that flex, the same flexibility. And income that allows them to pursue their passions and have experiences that they're passionate about. So I think that would be our biggest— I would think that's success. But I also think just for myself and for my team, we continue to grow as individuals and grow our skill sets. I think that's also an important component.

That's fascinating. Let's stay on this topic for just a minute because I was going to ask about this. You've purposely built a lifestyle business, which I think the term requires a little definition. You sort of explained it there, but not only just for you and your partner, but you said something about your team too.

Is that possible?

So I think it is possible. I've got a funny story about, about this actually. Yeah. Yeah. So the first time I met you, we went briefly, it was in 2021 at, at SKU Camp in Palm Springs. So it's the last day of, of SKU Camp and we all head to the pool, right? So we're in the pool. I'm kind of a shy guy, you know, I've met people at the event, but I, but I didn't know a lot of people that were in the pool partying, So I'm sitting out at the edge of the pool and Greg Gill swims up to me and, you know, asked me my name. We began to make introductions and he asked me about Blackfish and we're talking a little bit and I told him that, you know, I came out of SKU camp there. There's so much motivation and you're just so inspired, right? And I was a little torn. I'm like, I just don't know whether we're on the right track. Should And I had actually called Karen before we ended up in the pool to ask her, I said, do you think we're doing this wrong? Should we focus on growth and just try to just capitalize on how great we are and let's grow this thing? And she says, what are you talking about? Like, we've got this life we built and it's amazing. What would you trade that for? To make more money. And so I was talking to Greg about this and he says, he basically puts his hand up and he's like, he won't even remember this I'm sure. But he is like, shut up for a second. He's like, you need to figure out there are two models. There are growth models and there's a life and a lifestyle model. Figure out which one you are and you've just answered your question. And so I think a lifestyle business is a business that allows its owner to pursue their passion, and the lifestyle they want. And there are growth models where the model is to grow it as much as it can be grown. And that's the goal. The growth is the goal, and that's not our primary goal.

Yeah. I love that you have drawn a dividing line between that and we could argue, but we don't have time for it, but we could argue that even the growth model is like a net sum, like the gain of that is eventually a lifestyle business too, because eventually they want to sell the business.

But anyways, we, but you don't know if you're going to live, right? I mean, that long, right? I mean, you could die right now. You could walk out of your home and get hit by a bus, right? Yeah.

I think more people post-COVID came out of it with a healthier version of what you're talking about. Like, more people are leaning toward, you know what, they'll be listening and saying, Matt, we're on that track too. We just didn't clarify it like you did.

I think COVID. So Skew Camp 2021, right? That's the first event most of us had attended.

Wow.

Post-COVID. It was my first event. And I know that talking to a lot of people, a lot of people were nervous about being around other people. We were in meeting rooms that had open windows and fans and people were sitting, giving each other a little bit of distance. Everything was outdoors. So yeah, I think it, that did focus it for us and it reinforced for sure, about what was important.

That's cool.

I love hearing that. In 2019, you invested in Commonsku, and that obviously had to be a big difference in making your business a lifestyle business because it allowed you a lot more flexibility yet transparency. I won't speak for you, but what's been the strongest benefit to the team?

So we won't get into pre-Commonsku because that was a hellscape, right? Sure. It was awful. Lots of long, long hours. But I think what it's given my team and I, it's just more time. I think Commonsku is an efficiency multiplier. It allows you to get so much more done with the time you have because it just streamlines the entire process. And so, you know, for us it's been a game changer. We did a lot of research before we decided to come aboard and start using Commonsku and we haven't looked back. It's made made, uh, our lifestyle and business model possible. Yeah, yeah.

You know, you've chosen the fairly peripatetic life. I know, just like traveling a lot, and you're trying to run a business while living vividly, and I just respect and admire that so much. We no longer really have to expound on this, but can you speak to the possibilities CommonSkews opened up for you in terms of just being able to be that flexible and the transparency around it?

Well, I think like the main thing for The, the main benefit that I find is we can be anywhere in the world. I can access sales reports, production reports at a click of a button. Yeah. And get that visibility that's necessary to run the business and, and make decisions in the moment. The other thing that I think is probably a little bit more important is collaboration. Yeah. Within our industry, it's so important between our team, between our clients, and I think it just makes collaboration so, so easy and yeah. You know, I can be at the other end of the world on completely different, in a different time zone and be helping a colleague with a project and making sure that everything that they, you know, that needs to get done is getting done.

Yeah. You said something so insightful to me about navigating the ups and downs of this business. And if we all looked at like a 12-month past sales history, we would see these peaks and valleys typically in our industry. And during those peak moments and those down in the valley moments, there are like almost two areas to be concerned about your own activity and your client activity and then your headspace. How have you managed to maintain forward momentum and positive energies in those?

Okay. So I think for, for smaller businesses like ours, I think community is, is hugely important. So I've already touched base on SKU Camp. I think these types of events, and I think that's one thing that, that, that CommonSKU does well, creating community is, is so important where you can share ideas, and connect with each other to figure out some of these problems and our challenges. There are so many challenges within our business specifically. The other thing, going back to SKU Camp 2021, I met Brenda Spears and she founded the Ripple community. And so shout out to Ripple 13. That's my group. I love you guys. They are great. And just the support and camaraderie within that community is great. We connect twice a month, we share funny stories, our wins, our losses, we support each other, we're vulnerable and can open up about challenges we're having, doubts and worries and whatnot. And so I think that's just been invaluable and it's really strengthened me as a— I think my team definitely recognizes the difference pre-Ripple to now. That's cool.

Yeah. To get that support. That's fantastic.

Sure.

Eric, we, with our last 4 minutes or so here, I wanted to ask you a few things.

What excites you most about the future of the business?

Future of the business. You know, I'm really excited about, I think we can all agree that, that let's say 10 years ago, right? There was a lot of like greenwashing, you know, that this item is green because it utilizes a certain percentage of maybe recycled material and that percentage might be tiny and it just, it didn't seem authentic. I mean, we're talking about, you know, being authentic. Like earlier during our conversation, it just wasn't authentic. It was kind of gross. And it's really exciting to see everybody dive, you know, headfirst into sustainability. That's something that's very, very exciting for me. The other thing is I feel like product quality is really increasing and you see a lot of exciting brands that are entering the space. And I think that's, that's so amazing because we don't want to make brand fill. That's not our goal. We want to make high-quality products that are going to last a long time and that are going to give, create the most impressions for, for our clients. Yeah. So I, that's, that's what's got me most excited, you know, beyond the people. I think our industry is filled with a lot of amazing people that I've gotten to know over the last few years and it's been, been a lot of fun.

So great. We already know you travel and so what do you, what else do you enjoy doing when you're not working and where are you traveling next?

So next we're going to be in Barcelona and Basque Country, which we're very excited about. And I guess what I'm excited about is just being outside. I like to, any excuse to get outdoors, whether it's bike riding or running, going on a hike, camping with friends, eating good food, going to restaurants and spending time with people I'm close to. I think that's, those are my priorities for sure.

The marrow of life. I love it. What book, podcast, video, or movie has really made the most impact on you lately? Business or non-business.

I knew this was coming, so I've been thinking about this. All right. Okay. I don't have any good books to share because spy thrillers and science fiction's probably not going to do anybody any good, but those are good books, but go ahead. They are good books. So the 10% Happier podcast with Dan Harris.

Oh yeah.

I had a friend that introduced me to this podcast while I was training for a marathon. And I was hesitant to begin listening to this podcast because it sounded so self-helpy. To me. I was like, oh, what is it? It sounds like a self-help book. Like when life gives you lemons type of thing. I started listening to it and fell in love. It's amazing. They touch on everything from productivity, protecting your time, improving your sleep, meditation, improving your relationships. Right. And we've been talking about that earlier in this conversation. And yeah, I get a lot from it. I think it's a valuable resource and I recommend it all the time. I think anybody can grow from listening to it. I think it's amazing.

I totally agree. He's so pragmatic, so practical. I mean, follow him on social channels and he just, he, he just is able to take this esoteric idea and bring it down into real life. And the funny thing is you and I were talking about panic before we hit record, just because we were talking about particular challenges. And I was, I was telling Matthew so that folks are listening to know that I was telling him the story about a panic attack I had in front of a client. And the panic attack I had in front of a client was around the same time Dan Harris, for those that aren't familiar with him, is a newscaster for, for, for national news program where he had a panic attack on air. That's how his whole 10% Happier got started.

I did not realize that.

Yeah, it was on air, was one of the national broadcasts like CBS or NBC, and that's where it started. And when I had mine, it was like Dan had around the same time. So I had like some, somebody that, that I looked up to who was able to go, you know, this happened to me too. And so anyways, I wasn't, I was less embarrassed when I realized it can happen to somebody on that scale.

Yeah.

Matthew, this has been a pleasure, man. I really enjoy talking with you. And as everyone has probably already figured out, you're incredibly authentic. I love your brand. I know you say you need to work on your website. I love your website. I love what you've done with your business. And thanks for being willing to hang out with us for a little bit and talk about it.

Yeah, thank you for having me. It's awesome.

You bet.

All right, take care.