Episode 336: The “Quiet Work” of a Power Brand: Inside MOTIF’s Unique Culture with Joel Antymniuk

Create and appreciate. That's the motive that drives Joel Antemuke, the CEO and founder of Motif, a branded merch design agency that builds best-in-class experiences for brilliant brands. Joel's passion is embodied in his creed. It's this: the real magic isn't just in reaching our goals, it's in pursuing them. We need to shift our perspective and realize that happiness and fulfillment in our entrepreneurial lives doesn't come from simply hitting targets, but from embracing the process of getting there. On today's show, we're exploring Motif's fresh approach to the business, including how to build a brand that invests in both growth and wellbeing. Welcome to the Skucast, the podcast for innovators and maverick thinkers in the branded merch space. My name is Bobby LeHew. I'm glad you're here. Joel Antemuke founded Motif in 2016, and since has grown their crew and in-house design agency to a full-service firm, including kitting and shops.. We talk about investing in brand from the inside out and real talk about wellbeing, Motif's 4-day work week, their health day initiative, and the power of quiet work, where ditching constant notifications and giving your team the space to do creative work leads to focus and higher quality. And Joel is one of our speakers at our business bootcamp experience called SKU Camp, held September 7th through 10th in Scottsdale, Arizona. We just dropped session details about what's happening at SKU Camp. And at SKU Camp, we'll be talking about everything from how to craft an unforgettable customer experience to navigating economic volatility, all while conquering global supply chain challenges like tariffs. We'll also discuss the importance of ethical sourcing and raising leaders in your business, and the fun stuff like developing an agency mindset, fashion-forward merch, and innovative lead gen tactics. Now, if you've never been to SKU Camp, treat yourself. You and your business will be richly rewarded. And if you've been before, I assure you, you haven't been to one like this one. Tickets are going fast. You can get yours at skewcamp.com. Today's episode is brought to you courtesy of us at Common Skew. Over 800 distributors powering $1.8 billion in network volume rely on Common Skew's connected workflow. Process more orders, connect your team, and dramatically grow your sales. To learn how, visit commonskew.com. Now, here's my chat.

With Joel. So Joel, you came at this business from a design angle, like you came at it from a design approach. So meaning you love the merch industry and the design process, but have you evolved in your approach to merch with clients or— and the way you think about merch from when you first started?

That's— yeah, I like to think we have. I think overall our design angle or approach has always been a part of a more foundational creative approach in general. So yes, offering design services is, I think, one of many areas we can bring a creative approach to this, to this promo world. It was only maybe a few years ago we kind of whipped up during this rebrand, working with kind of a local, you know, marketing agency and we collaborated on it was, was the Create and Appreciate tagline. And I think, yeah, in the last— and yeah, I just, I love it too. I just think, you know, so good to do great things that can just kind of like live together. But just embracing the fact that like there's creativity everywhere, right? And, and I think just, just saying that out loud and, and embracing it is going to bring a lot of value to your team and to your clients. And so, yeah, there's creativity in design. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But I think there's creative approaches and creative outlets in managing the business and your leadership team and your systems and your workflow. In your, in your culture or your client touchpoints. And I think that's been something really enjoyable for us as a team is to just always keep that top of mind and be like, listen, like we can approach each day with creativity. Yeah, yeah. Keeps things exciting.

I love that. What type of clients do you like working with the most?

Honestly, just anybody that appreciates an experience and not just another transaction. Yeah, you know what I mean? Where like sometimes a new client will come to us or we'll prospect a new client and they'll be, you know, a little disgruntled though. They'll kind of have their wall up and be like, you know, just no sales pitch, no fluff, just like, what's your price? And it's like, ah, you know, for sure. But you know, and you kind of got to wheel them in and get them loosened up. Or you have the ones that are genuinely coming and looking for like a human connection and an experience. We can do the transaction. We're great at transactions. I think a lot of people are. Uh, but again, somebody that's open to actually developing a partnership and like looking to be a part of something more than just like, here's money for merch.

So yeah, and that tagline, your branding is beautiful. We'll link to this in the show notes. Your branding is beautiful, what you guys do with, with your messaging. I mean, create and appreciate all of that. It, you can tell that you're trying to get clients to approach it from a different angle, from the open their aperture, their focus a little bit and consider what can be done with merch because you haven't, you have in-house design, right?

We do. Yeah, we have 3 full-time in-house, in-house designers and we try and take a creative approach from day one. I was like, wouldn't it be cool if like a sales rep was like also kind of a graphic designer or a creative individual, right? So again, like approach sales creatively, like you got to find ways to stand out.

So that's interesting.

Do you—

do your designers work with all of your clients? Do you have like certain clients that you set aside design time for? How do you sort of manage the graphic design side? Of it with your customers?

Yeah, the design team is a part of the day-to-day workflow. It's usually kind of projects at the beginning will be managed by our sales reps or account managers. Yeah. And they'll collaborate with the design team right off the get-go. So whether it's just standard mockups, right? So we package everything up, you know, on that sales order. Here's the product mockup, here's the descriptions, decorating details, and the sales rep is working with the design team during that process. So they're involved in that day-to-day stuff. And then, and then, yeah, we definitely save a piece of each of their plate for higher-level design projects that, you know, that we charge for and we take our time and we're, you know, we're putting out some really cool work. And then what's really important is making sure we're also designating enough of their plate for us as well, right? Like it's important to always kind of work on yourself, you know, as well.

So on that note, you invest a lot in yourself. It shows with your work you've done. I mean, one of the interesting things you said to me was when I called you Motif Marketing, you're like, ah, no, it's not, it's not Motif Marketing, it's not Uber taxis, Bobby, it's Motif. I love that though. I mean, you, you make a serious heavy investment in the brand, and that is a rarity in this business. Unfortunately, it's still a rarity. What do you, what do you want customers to think when they engage with Motif initially?

When they initially see or think or hear of Motif, I want I want intrigue. I want to spark intrigue, right? And be like, that's why I want marketing removed, right? Again, and it's like Uber. It's like Uber. The hell is Uber? I know that's like kind of like a cool, fun word. I'm going to look into this. And then they look into it. And if they don't look into it, it's definitely somewhere in their brain for when the time comes for them to look into it. And then I think that's where they start doing their research. And you can start kind of feeding them stories and introducing the company to them. I just kind of find that like if it's like Motif marketing and if they see that, they're like, no, we're, we're good. We don't need marketing, right? We're good to go on marketing. It's like, I'm sure you are.

It's a great point.

Yeah. Like, come, come check us out because maybe there's things we're doing. Yeah. You don't even know exist. And this is a big part of our kind of sales strategy going into this year is like, now you have a problem because we just made you aware of something you don't have, right? Maybe our approach to this, a product, a design, whatever.

Yeah.

So yeah. I love that. I always like to remind folks that even SanMar, whose name doesn't mean we ship apparel items, was a, was sort of this combination of Sandy and Mark's name, and they built the brand experience. And, and you could argue that they had the same kind of like approach, right? Or maybe it wasn't even as sophisticated as your approach. Maybe it was just, this is what we're going to name it because these are our names. But I love the fact that you were able to evolve and build the experience, and the name becomes synonymous with the experience you're going to build. Like right now, The name Sandmarc is synonymous with great service, right? So it's really cool. You mentioned in your interview with Chris Sinclair that what you work on internally with the team extends externally to the client. So you've mentioned a few times the investment you've made in the brand, the time you spend on the brand, but what do you mean by that? How does spending time working on your own brand pay off with clients and with your team?

Yeah, I think initially it was like, you know, we're going to use these creative outlets and these resources to elevate our own brand. And it just makes sense with You know, you create like a really attractive, cool, intriguing, you know, unapologetic, this is who we are type brand. Obviously that's going to build trust, maybe create a wow factor and intrigue from clients being like, hmm, I really thought we should maybe be taking that approach to merch too. Maybe we should be putting more intention behind our, I don't know, million-dollar merch budget. Like some people are spending a crazy amount of money on this stuff and there might not necessarily be a ton of intention behind it. It's more just like bottom of the to-do list, like here, just like just get something done for me. Yeah, but I think over the last, over the last few years, I've come to really realize it's not just branding, like we work on ourselves and then that kind of projects out into the world. It's anything we work on ourselves. And the reason I've kind of had to reflect on this is Oftentimes I'll worry that it's like, okay, maybe I'm not spending as much time on things that are directly going to increase revenue, you know, like revenue, revenue, revenue, that is growth. It's like, yeah, obviously that is definitely growth. But there's so much more that goes into that where it's so much more enjoyment is. And I think, you know, it's, it's systems and processes, like let's work on systems and processes that's going to equal a more positive end-to-end experience for the clients, working on your culture and work schedule and work-life harmony. You know, that's going to be a happier, healthier team, better representation for Motif, better customer service for the client. Yeah. And again, it's just like work and life is just— it's the same thing to me. And it's like a healthier, happier you— yeah— is a better you, right? So like, why not take care of the team and yourself and the company? And it's— you're just going to be better.

I love how you have sort of turned sales strategy as an inward-out approach. And what, what I mean by that is— I'm gonna chase the thread here— there There's a commonality I'm seeing with some big market brands that obsession is the new sales strategy. Meaning, when MUBI, or MUBI, I think it's MUBI, the streaming channel wanted to promote their movie The Substance, they didn't reach out to a distributor. They reached out to an Instagram account called Director Fits, and it was simply an Instagram account that highlighted directors' outfits, like what they wore, like Wes Anderson wears corduroy and things like that. My point being is that Director Fits, the account, was obsessing over director fits, and they attracted the interest of an outside buyer. And I see similarly what you've done with your brand is you have obsessed about building the best brand possible, and that obsession then attracts people to the brand. Would you say that's a, that's a, that's a part of the sales strategy?

I, I think so, yeah. And I think brand as in, you know, Motif as a team, and I don't know, maybe use the word organism, right? And Yeah, I think the more we've always focused on, like, let's make ourselves as attractive as possible. First, you know, 5, 6 years, we grew basically entirely on organic growth. Now we're being much more intentional and strategic of where our growth is coming from, which is that great difference between from 1 to 5 years is very, very different than 5 to 10 years as far as like an entrepreneur and a business. But yeah, yeah, I think it's I think, you know, the more you work on yourselves, that's naturally going to transpire into, into the right people, at least.

Yeah, that's another great point you mentioned. You talked about quiet work, which I thought was a beautiful phrase— time blocking, quieting notifications. I love this term. You riffed off of Cal Newport's Deep Work. But can you unpack that more with your team? Because you've coupled— you've mentioned a few things I hear. I think they're very successful strategies. One is obsessing on the brand, but then also obsessing with yourself, in terms of obsessing with with time management and quiet work. But can you unpack that phrase and how that translates across your team and why that's important?

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, love the term unpack. I plan on using that quite a bit moving forward. Yeah, so definitely obsessively learning from Cal Newport and other people kind of in his community. So we've been successfully running a 4-day workweek as a team for almost 3 years now, and I'm not going to dive into it. I can expand on that, you know, elsewhere, but it's, it's been great for us.

Interesting.

Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah. And it's, and it's been huge. And like, we're, we're growing year over year. And this, this most recent year, like doubled in, in more measurements than just revenue. And so like, it's just, it is, it's working for us though, for us. And so after 2 years, I did a review of it, right? And, you know, I've become a fan of like, never, never just set and forget. You know, in life or in business. Like, don't just like implement a new plan and then like leave it alone. Like, things, things are just constantly changing and evolving. You kind of got to get back to that dial and, and relook at it. Yeah. And so did a review of it. And I guess overall with our, our culture and work and life and 4-Day Workweek is from the beginning I've always tried to find ways to share some of the perks and benefits of the entrepreneurial lifestyle, kind of how work and life is one. You know, it doesn't have to be 9 to 5 and you're done, because yeah, once that 5, 5 PM alarm goes off, like, who are you kidding? You're taking your work home with you, you know what I mean? Like, right, we all have a human brain. You're not just like, yep, now I forget about it. It's like, absolutely no, you don't. Yeah. And so the 4-day work, work week is one, and, and with that 4-day work week, your day off is called your HD. Health day, right? So again, everybody gets a 3-day weekend. The whole premise is like, better rested, a healthier and a happier brain is a better brain. And after 2 years, I was noticing like, it's interesting, like a weakness of all these amazingly awesome good people that are attracted to Motif and come work on the team, you know, they'll end up working a lot on their HD. They'll end up checking their emails over the weekends and so on. It's like, okay, so as the leader and the owner, it's like, that's amazing. However, it's like, you don't want burnout. You don't want them to feel obligated. There's this, this push and pull relationship with this 4-day work week. And so I was noticing a lot of people being like, well, I'm not getting a lot of, you know, rest and stuff on my HD and on the weekend. You know, I'm finding some of it's on them. They're, they're checking their email when they shouldn't be checking their email. You guys, turn it off. Here's the thing, read this in a book, don't know which book, but your in— your inbox is like a to-do list in which the entire world can add to. That's insane. That's insane. Like, come on, turn it off.

Just turn it off.

Who do we think— who do we think we are? And so Again, I've constantly obsessed over, you know, doing efficient work, finding my right schedule, my right rhythm, when to turn notifications on, when to turn them off. And I wanted to share that with people. And so again, it's like, oh, I have to work on my HD. It's like, listen, if there's critical work to be done on your HD, then yes, that give and take agreement that I outlined in this rule book is yes, get it done, but you got to leave these people alone, right? So if you know somebody is on an HD, don't send them a Slack message. Yeah, don't send them an email and definitely don't send them an email and then a Slack message letting them know.

Right.

You said it was just kind of like a circle back, like, hey guys, what kind of behaviors are we, are we doing right now? Yeah. And that's where I kind of came up with the term. I was like, this is quiet work. So again, thank you. For understanding what we're trying to do here with this 4-day workweek and being a part of this, like, much bigger picture change. Yeah, literally for our kids, even my two boys, once they're in the workforce, it's just normal to, to not have to work as many hours. I think AI is going to help with that whether we like it or not.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, put in that work, but it might not actually seem like work when you're just at home. You've made the choice to keep up because you care about your job. Right? So you're not being forced, and the whole world thinks you're not working, right? Because it's your HD, right? And so it's just a different category of work. So I've called it quiet work.

I love it, man. It's so good. It's so rich. Joe, you really approach the business from— you really try to approach the business from a healthy perspective in terms of the, the demands. Because I think we, man, we buy into these real false ideals about what work should look like. Study after study has proven that you can only really do about 4 of deep concentrated work, maybe even 2 a day. Just the human brain. I love what you said about like you can't turn it off. Like you're not working 40 hours a week, sometimes you're working 80, but because it's all up here and we do a lot of creative think work in our business, that's what we do. So let's talk a little bit about building a team though. You, you, one of the final things that you just mentioned was about qualitative work versus quantity.

What did you mean by that? Well, basically it's not about doing more work, right? Well, like, if they're not working 5 days a week, they're not doing more work. It's like, yeah, but what's the goal here, right? Are we making sure they do more work, or are we making sure they do the work and good work, right? And so we shouldn't be measuring it quantitatively like an assembly line, like building the Ford Model T car. You can just like very much measure how much people are working. It's, it's thought work, right? It's, it's, it's qualitative work. And so an hour is not an hour for every person. Like, it isn't. You can chop this up as much as you want, but it isn't. Like, 1 hour for me might be very different than 1 hour for you and somebody else. And so a big part of this is I guess also understanding with the 4-Day Workweek RHD is in this last year I implemented what we call the freedom work schedule, which is everybody has the freedom to work from home as much as they want. Okay, we have this big beautiful warehouse in the prairies. You can come in, there's a collaborative workspace. I'm providing that for you, but you have the choice. And so choice is a huge thing too. They still come in, but it's their choice. You know, I don't really like being told what to do. Right. A lot of people are the same in that regard. One real interesting thing I learned about that is I tried to set it and forget it. I was like, yes, mission accomplished. All right, freedom work schedule. I can just forget about that part of my job. Not true. I talked to one person and they're like, I'm literally a healthier person physically, mentally. I have more time at home to work and also get supper ready for when my girls come home and spend more time with my partner. Partner. I was like, damn, that's amazing, man. Yeah. And then somebody else I talked to and I check in with, and they're like, this is not going well, right? I know, I know I need to come into the warehouse and collaborate and be around people, but I just, I don't, you know, have the necessary willpower or self-control. And the freedom work schedule was failing them. And so at first I was kind of like bummed out. I was like, ah, like, why? You know what I mean? I thought, I thought this was like as good as it can get. Yeah. But that's not the case. I've learned to appreciate that it's, it's something that I'm gonna constantly have to have my hand on the dial and, and touching in with people because everybody's different, everybody's life situation is different, and it's constantly changing, right? And so things need to be custom catered to let each person thrive in their own way.

Um, Joe, I love how as a younger entrepreneur you're really trying to tackle that head-on. Like, whereas people want to policy this into something they don't have to deal with, you're dealing with the realities of, of human complexity. Yeah, yeah, it's fun. Let's talk a little bit about CommsCue and Motif, because CommsCue has, has been a part of your story as you've evolved and grown. How does CommsCue sort of fit your team and your brand's ethos?

Yeah, that's a really good question. First of all, we love common SKU. It's been great for us, but overall it really aligns with our culture and kind of our overall vibe. We've always positioned ourselves and kind of broadcasted that we're forward thinking. We always want to be on the right side of progress. We always want to be pushing the envelope. With, you know, tech solutions, product development, how we approach the industry. And so it very much aligns with that. I think overall, when we onboarded Commscue from, from another kind of software community that we came from, is as my team's onboarding and they're seeing the dashboard and just like aesthetically and how user-friendly it is, sorry, they're just like, ah, Thanks, Joel. This makes a lot of sense, actually. You know what I mean? They're just like, this, this makes sense.

And it's, ah, yeah, it was just such a great fit. I love that. How has Commenscue impacted the business? Like, what kind of impact has it made on your business?

Again, it's, it's one of those, those internal kind of focuses, right? It's, it's an operating system, you know, it's a, it's a CRM, but that directly oozes out to everything forward-facing, right? It now we're anything from custom branded sales forms to project portals to pop-up shops. All of these things kind of add to that Motif magic. And so it's just like another step in the right direction.

Yeah.

And if we're out there broadcasting that we're that type of distributor, it's just another feather in our cap to be like, look, like, we're not, we're not scared to do, you know, the hard thing to keep progressing, you know.

You've built such a flexible work environment as a leader. I'm sure that has also been beneficial to you. How has CommonsCube benefited you as a leader being able to see things, transparency? I don't want to lead you, but how has that helped you?

It's helped quite a bit. The management dashboard, just a quick bird's-eye view snapshot of what's going on, and the ability just to kind of click through the action title tiles or the graphs and kind of get a bit more granular on, on what you want to dive into. But again, overall, like, one wouldn't really think that switching to a different operating system and community would have as much of an impact on, on your, on your culture and, and morale and identity, right? Again, both internal and external. And I think that's probably, uh, what I'm most stoked about. I think a big part of being on the right side of progress is not necessarily where we are or where Common Skew is, is we're very aligned on our willingness and, and passion to keep growing.

Right.

So you guys, you guys listen like you listen. I think through anything I might need to improve or why this, why that. And you guys listen, right? It doesn't mean it's all going to get done necessarily, but it's, it's that willingness to always be improving that is like right in line with us.

So well said. Let's talk about you as a leader and just you as an individual, because you're fascinating, Joel. We've watched your journey for a while now. I really— I respect what you've done, what you've done as a brand, who you are as an individual. This individual, like, this sort of rebel spirit that you have is, is kind of fascinating to me. What motivates you? You said that you've never really been about being the biggest, selling the most, being— I mean, don't let me put words in your mouth, but what, what motivates you now as an entrepreneur compared to years ago?

I draw a lot of motivation from my kids, actually, and just like, you know, just tuning into like other people that have kids and just like them looking at me, right? Like, I want to show them what I deem to be the most fulfilling, most exciting, best way to live this one life. And it's just really awesome to honestly tune into that almost daily, you know what I mean? Like, I act as if they're watching me and like, I want them to take risks. I want them to treat people fairly. I'm not saying I'm doing all these things all the time. I'm a human too. I'm sure of screwing up, but my kids motivate me a ton. They give me a lot of courage and a lot of motivation. I think I crave personal and professional growth. I know that sounds super fluffy, but like, I really do. Like, I crave it and I, and I love it and I just That's, that's my approach to life for sure. Yeah, yeah, I just—

it's awesome.

This is going to sound like a tangential, tangential topic to what we are discussing, but I think it's very important. When you talked about growth as an individual, are there like sacred disciplines or habits or practices you use in your daily life or weekly regimen that sort of refuel you?

We just—

it's funny, when we got on this call, we were talking about habits, and because both of us are in like this negative 20, negative 40, you're like some negative 40 weather right now. What fuels you in terms of habitual structure in your life?

Yeah, I'll start, I'll start with a real banger, actually. I, I removed alcohol and became a non-drinker, a badass, a badass non-drinker is how I like to frame it. Almost no, but almost 2 years ago. And it's just been, it's been a total game changer. I use the wordage like superpower, like it's a superpower, man. When you look at it and just analyze how much of your capacity something so silly like that takes up, And again, this is just me, you know, like this is just for me. This is my, this is my formula. So that's a big one is, and I guess removing that has kind of resulted in me not needing as many refuels, you know what I mean? You don't need these drastic breaks because you don't have this like huge high and then this huge low and then it's, it's more just kind of Right, you know, it's, it's, it's nice.

Yeah, that's cool. You and I did the same thing. I did mine during the pandemic when everybody's kind of started drinking more. I decided to quit then. So yeah, you get this bandwidth, you get this openness, you get this— it's, it's kind of the superpowers. I love the way you phrase it because that's so true. What do you, what do you enjoy doing when you're not working?

Are you still skateboarding? I certainly am, yes. That is definitely still my zen time. It's hard to put words to it. It's just when you know, you know, and it's just like, you just get this feeling. And it's— I hate, I hate how the whole world is like, well, you got to make sense of that. You know what I mean? Like, you know, why is that? It's like, I don't, I don't want to have to figure out why, you know what I mean? Like, why does everything have to make so much goddamn sense all the time? I can't just be—

I love that.

Yeah. To the skateboarding point, one thing I want to share is a year and a half ago, I completed my biggest YOLO project, again, YOLO, is I built what I call the hog barn out at our acreage that we are very fortunate to live on. And what the hog barn is, is it is in fact a heated indoor play area/skateboard park for me and my boys. So it's pretty badass, man. It's a total dream come true.

So that's amazing. I absolutely love it. And I really love— that's a really good lesson that I learned from you here today, is that you don't have to explain your obsessions.

Exactly.

And they don't have to have a net gain into the productive cults of productivity. Yeah, they can just be because you absolutely enjoy them.

Yeah. And it can be a want. Like, you shouldn't have to explain your wants if your wants aren't hurting anybody, right? I mean, it's like, well, I want that. It's like, well, why? It's like, I'm not— I don't know why I want it, and I'm gonna—

I love it. Just be human, man.

Yeah.

What do you— what are you reading now? You're always voracious reader. You're hungry all the time.

What are you reading now? Yeah. I just cracked open The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And it's kind of exciting because it starts drawing on stoicism, which is— I just kind of started learning a lot about that maybe a year and a half ago. I read this book called The Daily Dad, which is just amazing. And yeah, so The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. It's great. I love reading, dude. It's like a $12 book, right? I mean, you can read these $12 books and be equipped with— yeah, so many more tools in life. It's just like, holy crap.

Yeah, it's the greatest ROI that ever exists.

It really is the greatest ROI.

It's the greatest ROI. So speaking of that, what, what book— is there a movie, documentary, YouTube podcast, and it doesn't have to be business related, that has really impacted and changed and shaped who Joel is? That's hard. It's a big question.

Yeah, I think just top of mind, like, since this kind of like personal growth improvement stage of my life started. Like, I've always been, you know, very much into always getting better and learning and, and taking risk. But, um, just kind of this stage of life— I'm not quite 40, but I heard a saying the other day where like your first 40 years is all about learning your formula, so making mistakes, doing as much as you can, and then the next 40 years is when you really start living, baby. So that's kind of what I'm trying to do.

I love it.

Um, I I would say Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martell. Just really, really instrumental in business and in life. Just, I'm a huge advocate of protecting my time. My time's very valuable and it's, it's the one currency that we're just never gonna get back. You know, like we, we have to listen to these, to these old buggers, you know, years and years where they're like, you know, you gotta spend more time with your kids and, you know, take more risks. And it's just like, you know what? You know what, sir? I think you're right. I'm gonna listen to that.

I love it. I do love, I do love how you walk this fine line between this rebel spirit and this person who does embrace that, who can see wisdom. Joel, it's always a joy talking with you, my friend. I really truly mean that. Thank you for spending time with us. Joel is also speaking at SKU Camp, and one of my favorite things about Joel's topic is that he's talking about sort of how we seem to be approaching business the wrong way. And some of this he hinted at during our podcast, uh, interview today. But we can't wait to see you in Scottsdale, my friend.

Thanks joining us. Awesome.

Thanks so much, Bobby.