Episode 359: Danny Rosin's Punk Rock Plan for Promo's Future

So what happens when a punk rock entrepreneur with a Hunter S. Thompson rallying cry steps into the board chair seat of the industry's largest nonprofit trade association? Well, on today's show, we're exploring what it means to lead with edge, authenticity, and a whole lot of heart in a season of massive change. Welcome to the SkewCast., the podcast for innovators and maverick thinkers in the promotional product space. My name is Bobby LeHew. I'm glad you're here. Danny Rosen is co-founder of Brand Fuel, a B Corp certified distributorship that he's built with his business partner Robert Fiveash over the past 28 years. Danny is the board chair at PPAI, a tireless community builder through organizations like Promocares and Band Together, and he's a founder of Promo Kitchen. And he's just one of those rare leaders who, despite his busy schedule, still picks up the phone, responds to email, and actually means it when he says he cares. Today we talk with Danny about what he means by buy the ticket and take the ride, what it means for his vision as PPAI board chair and where the industry's strategic plan is headed. We also talk about that landmark PPAI-ASI carbon study, why it matters and how distributors should use that data in conversations with buyers. And also we talk about the rehumanization of our industry. How that might be the biggest opportunity hiding in plain sight. Today's episode is brought to you courtesy of us at Commenscue. Over 900 distributors powering over $1.8 billion in network volume rely on Commenscue's connected workflow. Process more orders, connect your team, and dramatically grow your sales. To learn how, visit commenscue.com. Now here's my chat with our great friend Danny Rosen. Hi, Danny. Hey Bobby, for those, for those that are tuning in and listening, you have to know a few things. First of all, this is not a normal SKU Cast in one way because Danny and I've known each other for so long and Danny's been on the SKU Cast, but Danny's not only just been on the SKU Cast, Danny has like been the best provider of feedback for the SKU Cast. So there would be a guest on, he's been such a regular listener. He's been through the ups and downs of nearly 400 episodes. So it's a little awkward to say, Hey, my good, great friend Danny, welcome to the SkewCast. But welcome to SkewCast.

It is great to be here again and to be here with you. That is the thing that I am most happy about.

We had a fun time. We were just talking about bikes, of all things. So we're going to go drift off into all kinds of topics. But with Danny's role as chair of PPAI board, that's what sparked this particular conversation. So we're going to start with context around that. And true to form, Danny wrote an article to announce his incoming chair. And he had to quote Hunter S. Thompson. And there was this line that you used called, "Buy the ticket, take the ride," which is a hell of a rallying cry for someone stepping onto a board chair role. So what do you mean by that? What's the ride you're inviting people on?

I think it's always a good day when you could quote a gonzo journalist, you know, Hunter S. Thompson. Maybe the quote's as much about a feeling as a rallying cry. Back to like Robert Fiveash, my business partner of 28 years, my 44-year friendship with him and us sneaking into punk rock shows and, finding out what we're made of with our fake IDs, and we're doing it together. There's a little context in all of this that probably should be explained a little bit. So there's the quote that you mentioned, and then there's also this PPAI profile picture I have that includes— it's like me wearing a nice collared shirt, and in the background there's— it's like a punk rock mosh pit in the background. And maybe while it's like atypical to see a Hunter S. Thompson quote in like from a board chair of an international nonprofit, I want members to know who I am and not just from this like 36-year industry veteran standpoint, but like a little bit of an attitude, punk rock attitude. I'm not afraid to say some things that I think others might be afraid to say. And we're in a fairly commoditized space and there's a lot of change and it's just like, gotta shake it up, man. The DIY punk rock element, all of that. Also that DIY in our industry, like personalization and creative design and decoration and packaging and fighting the good fight for sustainability and all that stuff. It's important to think about our industry maybe through a different lens. And the only thing I'd add is maybe that we need to add from a person standpoint, when we think about like diversification of industry, I'm like, more nose rings and more tattoos, more young people, more color, more edge. Yeah. Where are the Mohawks? Like, you Yeah. Because I think those are the people who are getting after it in entrepreneurial ways.

Yeah, it's a great industry for that too. Prior to us jumping into the rest of this conversation, let's back up one second. You know, a lot of folks come to the industry and this always surprises me when it happens, but they come in and go, what is PPAI? They hear about the expo, that's about their only exposure. So what is PPAI for those that are either new to PPAI or only familiar because of the expo? And what does a board share do specifically?

Yeah, good question. So for those who don't know, PPAI is the nonprofit trade association for our industry, and it's really involved in education, advocacy, big events like everybody knows. I think people say I'm going to PPAI when they're actually going to Expo, but there are leadership conferences. There's a lot of research, a whole team around research and professional development. Those are really kind of the core things. And I like to say it's like scaffolding for the branded merch industry. And I would also emphasize that we're a nonprofit. So every time you write a check to PPAI, you're supporting like an organization that should be supporting you. From a board standpoint, I'll say that the board exists to support members. And here's something Drew Holmgren, the CEO of PPI, were talking about at an event we were at recently where we were talking about adding a t-shirt into the boardroom on a chair that just said member. So there was like representation of a member in the room at every meeting that the board had. So if anybody wants to help make a member t-shirt, let me know.

Might know a few people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We might know a few people. But my role as board chair is to take all the wisdom and the cautionary tales of all the board leaders before who I've interviewed, all of them, like Denise. God, she was so good. Hard to follow. Andrew, Kevin, Brittany, Mary Jo, Todd, Tom, Ira. I'm gonna forget everybody. I mean, like, great people who have led the association and just take that insight and build on it and then help the board to make strategic thoughts or plans around like the association's focus. And, and I get to work one-on-one with Drew, and I think my role is to be really direct with him and honest and be a sounding board for him. That said, you know me, Bobby, and those who know me, I'm also gonna be a good drinking partner for him when what hits the fan. But also to like celebrate. I think the plan is like, let's toast a lot because we're going to intend on a lot of celebrations happening.

Yeah, we've got a few of those to talk about already today. One of the fun things I loved about your article, you said when you look in the mirror, you remember why you chose this industry. And when you look in the mirror, Danny, what do you recall about why you chose this industry?

I'm looking at a younger Danny, but I'm also thinking about a younger Bobby. I mean, we grew up in this industry. We both remember like searching for products on like microfiche and Overnighting business cards to suppliers because that's all our clients had for camera-ready artwork. I mean, back then it was like 3 to 8 week production on everything. You didn't have access to product level testing. I mean, there was really a lack of transparency and I would also say trust. And it's just a different way that we sold. But we both, I think, remember driving from an office every day to go see a prospect wearing a tie with a suitcase full of products and dropping off catalogs. It's embarrassing, but like, that's kind of our history. And I think then, then I think we saw like overflowing opportunity. I still see overflowing opportunity. I mean, you can open the door of any business and help them. And there's just an opportunity. When I think about this looking in the mirror thing today, it's about a different approach to creativity and design thinking and trying to differentiate through like first-to-product marketing and collaboration and giving back. Speaking of collaboration, like being a part of a community like the Skimmunity. And you do all those things and strong reputation and, and money follows. I think we're playing Santa Claus every day. And so I want to have fun. I want to be invested in local things, national things, international communities. We can do all that in our industry. And I'll make this really personal here. I look in the mirror, I'm going, nowadays I'm thinking like, I wanna build something special that my daughters will be really proud of.

Yeah. The interesting part about what you're saying too is this spark about what we saw in this industry and what attracted to us is still alive today for people that are getting into it. They see that same thing, whatever that common wavelength is. In your article, you talked about 11 things we can control. I thought this was really good. Things we can control versus things we can't control. But you also went on to talk about how we as an industry should stop doom scrolling and start upskilling. And we're entering this— it's hard to say the word unprecedented anymore because it's just happened so many times— but we're entering this age where technology is going through another tectonic shift. By the way, Danny, I was delivering a webinar yesterday and I cited you and us because I said we were a part of that wave when there was the first, probably first big technological shift called e-commerce. And what I mentioned was there were folks like our company and companies like Brand Fuel that were part of that initial wave that went from a non-technology world. We were doing catalog programs, we were doing fulfillment, and we moved into e-commerce and started doing company stores. That was a huge shift for the industry. Then we saw this technological wave of digitization just in terms of people, backends, and operations. Now we're seeing this massive shift in AI. For those that are hearing this, you know, stop doomscrolling, start upskilling, you know how busy and chaotic our industry is. What would you say to folks that are now looking down the barrel at this? Because it's kind of scary for folks as they're looking at, man, this is big.

I think some people are scared, some people are embracing it. It's like any new thing. And there's some people kind of sitting on the sidelines ready to kind of see what happens next. It's kind of a simple answer, and maybe it's, I don't know, I hope it lands. But I was thinking about like what I tell our sales team and had this conversation with one of our salespeople the other day. It was like running his fingers through his hair. I hate this international stuff. I've got, you know, all these, it's so complex. Like, I hate this. Right. And I just, I put my hand on his shoulder and I was like, go to the pain, go to the pain. I mean, if it's not hard or challenging, there are digital platforms out there that can handle your client states pretty damn easily and make your job obsolete. So reference a little music here, a little Rolling Stones. I think you got to dance with the devil. You've just got to embrace the chaos and you've got to do the work, the really hard work, so your client doesn't have to.

Drew unveiled PPAI's strategic plan at Expo, and the new strategic plan has three pillars: elevate the industry, strengthen community and member success, which of these, what matters to you most? I sort of had a combined question here. One of them was, and so I want to put a pin in that and then ask you this. Last time you spoke at QCon, you talked about the industries was, is, and must be. And now that you're in the chair, you have an ability to help shape that, or at least guide the conversation in direction and influence kind of where we're going. What's the must be?

A great question. I'm thinking about a lot of different things with the must be. I mean, to me, it's definitely technology What are we doing in terms of investing in on-demand platforms and international distribution capabilities, new products, new exciting decoration techniques? You mentioned AI, the battle against or the dance with AI. And I hope when we think about like what's next in that future, that we're really looking at quality. We've got to put quality out into the marketplace. I get kind of concerned about that from time to time. I'm seeing a trend of products that are not the— we saw an elevation of the value of a product post-COVID where the price points were higher. And, and now it's shrinking. And I think that's sometimes focusing on like consumer demand and what they're asking. But the real opportunity there is how do we think about really educating our customers on like investing in higher quality And so the other side of that is it kind of comes down to B Corp thinking. And I said thinking because I don't think you need to have a certification to do this work, but go for certification if you can. But Robert, my business partner, he once said something that I just loved. He said, our industry's survivability is directly related with sustainability. And so I would just also think about that. I charge everybody in our industry to think about the role they play in creating a more sustainable industry. Yeah. And so that's Suppliers investing in quality-tested merch like I talked about, and distributors choosing to sell through a sustainable lens. And when we sell like this, we're educating our clients, and essentially you're giving, you know, data points to suppliers to make better decisions based on those things that we're driving to create more ROI in our industry and for our industry. And that's just, yep, working collectively to lift the entire industry up.

Staying on this topic, we've got two paths here we're gonna take. One is I wanna talk about the perception of merch and that transformation that's happened, and then we'll get into the carbon study in just a minute. But PPAI's new vision is to make branded merch the premier marketing channel that powers lasting connections. Like, what's going on in the conversations in the boardroom with you and the PPAI board? Are we still competing against traditional channels for budget share with buyers? Is this about mindshare, or do you feel like merch is sort of entering or carving an entirely new category post-COVID? Because we did see quite a transformation happen. And for those that don't know, we have a merch trends newsletter called The Backpack that we produce on the first and third Friday of each month. Sounds like a pitch. I wasn't planning on talking about this, but Danny sends me a lot of ideas for this. So he's, he's like in tune with what's going on in merch and culture. So I'll just ask the question again. Are we competing against traditional channels, you think, or are we carving this entirely new category?

I think competition is kind of interesting when you think about all these different channels. And also, yeah, this kind of directly relates to what PBAI is really working on with some of the strategic plan and Melissa Ralston, Drew. There's going to be an investment in the industry's research and also partnership arrangements with other organizations, thing called Super Friends, where we're getting American Marketing Association and American Advertising Federation, other organizations like that to kind of really show them the value of the medium that we have. And I'm thinking about the work that PPAI is doing to educate and to be in front of these other organizations in the Super Friends model. And once we educate, ultimately that starts to elevate the perception that you're talking about. And then the valuation of our medium all of a sudden starts to head north, and that creates margin and attracts more entrants and more partnerships and things like that. I'm also thinking about the rehumanization of our industry, if I can call it that. I think there's going to be a movement around more human-to-human work. On a local level in some cases with this physical medium we sell. I'd ask you a question, Bobby, like, do you trust AI with your personal data?

Yeah, yeah, I, I do certain kind, depends on what you say, AI, certain kinds, certain types, certain brands or companies, like you would assess anyone else. But I see your point, what we're going, I think, is that the person-to-person tactile experience, the trust from human to human, Everything about that is gonna get more special, more unique.

I think so. I think our industry's really positioned well for that.

So well.

I mean, I don't trust AI with my personal data. I don't trust that it tells me the exact right thing every time. And yeah, but I do trust you. I do know you. I do know where you live. I know you're a human. Like, so I think there's an area for both. Just like when the internet came along and back in the day, we were all freaking out. We're all freaking out right now, but it was okay cuz we positioned the industry appropriately. And in this case, I think you'll have some AI, you know, tactical transactional types of purchasing. And we really need to be looking at GEO versus SEO now, generative engine optimization, and how are we gonna be found through AI as an industry or a company or an individual. Lots of change is happening, but I do think the human-to-human element, there's a place where people are going to buy from humans in the future 'cause they're not gonna trust AI as much with certain things.

I do sense that we as an industry might be taking it for granted that we're about to see this massive increase in the need for tactile one-to-one experiences because it's going to be very subconscious shift in culture, but it's going to happen because there's going to be this overreliance on AI and the new tools coming in. And then just like we've seen with albums, just like we've seen with other tactile experiences, those are going to become more and more important. And I say this because I don't know that we're thinking strategically enough about what that looks like for us, meaning we're here for the ride and we'll ride the wave and that will result in more sales and more growth. But what if we got strategic about that moment that's coming? It was like as if we could see COVID coming and that post-COVID experience that happened where promo just elevated.

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Yeah. I want to talk about the carbon study. This is really interesting. PPA— and if folks that don't know, PPA and ASI jointly commissioned a carbon study together, that's kind of a big deal. These two organizations don't always collaborate at this level. This is It's not like they're opposed to each other, they just don't collaborate at this level. What made this the right moment for that partnership? What does that signal to the industry?

Uh, first of all, I'm really proud of PDAI and ASI, like really proud. I think this kind of work, this collaborative work is super valuable for the industry. And many years ago there was more competition between the organizations, but I think they are working more hand in hand on things like this. So to me it's the right moment because I think sustainability is way bigger than competition. And so signaling to the industry that climate accountability is a shared responsibility, that's not about marketing. I'm really proud to be a part of an industry looking at it through that lens.

Yeah, I see your point. Our biggest threat is not each other as competitors. Our biggest threat is sustainability.

Bingo.

You said you held your breath for the outcome of that study. How should distributors and suppliers use this data in conversations with buyers? You're in a unique position. You've not only been in the industry, as a veteran, you are a chair, but also you actively run a very successful distributorship, so, and a B Corp at that. So how are you at Brand Fuel going to be using this data in conversations with buyers?

Yeah, I got a little bit of inside tip when it came out because we were part of the study, and so we heard about it. We weren't able to share it, but we did share it internally with our staff, and there were— you could hear the cheers. People were really proud of our place as a certain medium that, you know, came out. But I think we're talking about how does a salesperson frame cost per impression, something that the ad world uses a lot more than we do. But I think we're here now. We can say we can position merch as both an effective and a low-impact marketing investment. And that's it. It's like we can show these stats that changes the buyer behavior. We hope over time. I think it matters. It should matter. And I've Salespeople take this data to their customers the appropriate way with conviction and pride, there's no turning back. This is really going to help the industry.

There was an interesting phrase you just used, low impact, because I think that study come out and maybe a skeptic would say, what do you mean? We have impact, right? But I do like how you framed it low impact because the perception is that it's high impact. Is that the distinction we see here?

Yeah, that's exactly it. There's some thinking around what's missing in all of this too. And, and that's the thing we need to keep working on so we can use those kind of buzzwordy terms. And yeah, I don't know that it's super meaningful, but the good news is that we're doing the right work right now and we're planting the seeds for larger studies and more insight that we can deliver to our customers, which is going to drive innovation on the supplier and manufacturing side. So this idea that we're planting seeds for more progress, which I'm really excited about, this is kind of an opportunity to say to suppliers, like, thank you for investing in this. It's really important. I know it's not cheap. I know it's new, it's fresh, it's hard, but it's the work that they're doing that's allowing us to deliver this type of intel to the world.

You have obviously lived this in a very visceral way with Brandfeel because becoming a B Corp is not an easy task and So this is a very intimate experience for you and Robert and the team and for everything that you've done. I did love a quote from the article Andrew Kelly from Overture said that, you know, we can't look at this and go, cool, we're doing great, we don't need to improve anything. And as someone who's lived through B Corp certification, how would you encourage— are you still seeing gaps, massive gaps in the industry? Or are you saying we've seen— made so many leaps, but are you seeing gaps still?

Yeah, I mean, that was a great quote that Yes, there are big gaps that we see at Brandfuel, and we talk about where those gaps are and, and where we can approach partnerships to close gaps and offer our insights to help with the data points and things like that. But supply chain transparency, it's better, but it needs to get even better. We need more measurements. We think about material innovation as well. Like, what are the new materials and where are they coming from? And The circular end-of-life solutions that are there today that we need more of, we need more options, but they are showing up. And again, suppliers are doing the hard work and all of this stuff to me, like the marketer salesperson in me is saying like, I now have a story to tell that I didn't have before, which is really an edge around materials and end-of-life solutions. Nobody wants this stuff going into the landfill. Nobody. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's like, who wants another product, another bottle with a logo you've never ever interacted with? It's an advertisement.

We need to move beyond that. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna switch to collaboration and community. I know it's such a big passion for you just in general. And as I said in the intro about your involvement with everything from Band Together to Brandfuel, to PPAI, community is always a big deal to you. And I have to pivot a little bit to ask you about Commonsku community, because that was a big part of why you've been a part of Commonsku, and Robert and the team have been part of Commonsku for a while. You emphasize collaboration as our industry's future. How does Commonsku fit in that world with you and Brandfuel?

I just want to say, like, the sku-munity— and we were first on the platform and we're really proud of that and we're still there. And I think that just says enough. I mean, I could drop the microphone there. This comes down to a lot of the people that we work with there. I mean, we're just such huge fans of the people, you know, the brand, the merch, the platform, of course, man, just top-notch humans. I mean, we love you, Mark, Catherine, we love David some days, but it's just such an important community for us. And it's like we're walking into hiring new people and bringing, onboarding them into Brand Fuel. As often as we can. And it's the one area I don't think we have much friction in terms of onboarding, and that's really special. So for us, it, it's a mindset, you know, it's about being a part of something that's beyond us where collaboration can benefit everyone. And you look at the things that exist today that didn't exist before, like Restaurant Prossy Road, which you were a part of founding, and Promo Kitchen, which you were a part of founding, and what we're doing at Promo Cares. I mean, all the, the ASIPPAI carbon study. Truly believe this when I say this, I believe that Commscue in its essence, it is about community. And I think you all have inspired other organizations to be built around that same idea because you've shown the success and the history, the long history and the growth that has brought our industry just so much wealth and worth around like human connection and learning from each other and friendships. I mean, that's, it should be about that at the end of the day. We had to—

stop blushing. I have to share this one little anecdote I just saw past the screen, you know, through a Slack message or something on the team. But we've been doing so much development work and shout out to the team for enterprise and advanced distributors. And Brand Fuel is a customer who is runs a very complex business with fulfillment, kitting, distribution. There's lots of connections through tech platforms and things like that. But a really interesting and incredible comment from Allison, who is Danny's ops manager, director, like just incredible ops everything person. We did this split ship taxes project and it just— she said something like, you've taken years off my life from doing that. So when you get a comment from somebody like her, that is that savvy about ops and everything, that makes the team pretty proud. So anyways, I had to throw that shout out as much to our own team as anything else.

Yeah. And Allison is amazing. She's been with us for 20 years and she's grown up in this. And, you know, if you are an Allison, you're the operations person, the technology person, and you're in charge of the CRM, the order management platform. I will say that Allison would not be here if Kaminsky weren't here. Yeah, she's— yeah, it just has to be smooth.

Danny, you mentioned something as an interesting tangent we didn't plan on going down, but the industry has grown in sophistication. Just the— what we do as distributors has grown in so much sophistication. There are now these roles— I mean, Allison has always had that role at your organization, but there are now these roles where we're seeing this entire layer of operational managers, whether they're wearing a part-time CFO hat or whether they're tech or whether— but they're pretty much ops people. It's an interesting touchpoint about what's happened in the industry in terms of growing complexity as well.

Yeah, agreed. We have 2 full-time people that work with logistics titles now, and that didn't exist 10 years ago. Yeah. And that's Allison's driving, like, what are the needs of the operation? And I think our industry is starting to really think about how to run business outside of just a sales lens.

Danny, you started with— and we started this conversation with buy the ticket, take the ride. You've bought the ticket. You're board chair. I mean, you're leading. For someone, for someone listening who's brand new to the industry, or maybe they're uncertain, they're— I'm going to pause and just say, in this industry on any given day, you know how stressful it can be. It's always comical when people look at our industry and they're like, oh, that looks like so much fun, right? And then the irony is that it is, but it's also a very deadline-driven business. There's lots of complexities. But for someone who's listening, they're either uncertain or they're brand new, how would you encourage them to look at this upcoming year? Forget 5 years from now. Just look at this upcoming year.

Yeah, I'll say a few things. You've got to get closer to your customers than ever before. You've got to really listen to them before you sell to them. The word sell, by the way, came from the Old English word sellan, S-E-L-L-A-N, which means to give. I think just think about that. And then I think believing in our medium, like really believing in our medium, because if, if you believe that what we sell helps drive employee engagement and retention, fundraising, recruitment, helping companies sell more things, your confidence is probably the answer you're searching for. And then maybe investing in your own capabilities. So this would be around education, thinking about the LMS, the learning management system, the JGR. Hey girl. That she created at PPAI, that the platform there is incredible. So invest in that. I mean, think about AI literacy and, you know, from my vantage, I think you've got to think about sustainability and fluency around that. E-commerce is big with the on-demand platforms. You and I have seen that change in scope. We've got a lot of work to do. You are the king of creative storytelling. People say you're the Yoda of the industry.

I think, I think you're the only one that says that, Danny.

No, I say you're the poet laureate, but of the industry, but I think you're the best creative storyteller. And if you build skills around your own capability around creative storytelling, I think that's great. Uncertainty's tough, man. This last year was tough. It was uncomfortable. And from a Brand Fuel perspective, I just say that kind of lights a fire here where we are, or it just, it kills complacency and it forces us to start thinking about clarity and what's next and innovation. And so I think I just, I encourage everybody to go there instead of like sitting on their hands and complaining.

Yep. We will link to PPAI's education portal in the show notes on this. But I have the last question. Danny, you quote one of my favorite writers, E.B. White, and I love this quote because it epitomizes who you are as a person. And I'm someone who's known you for 30 years, 25 years. The quote is, I get up every morning determined to do two things: both change the world and have a hell of a good time. Your intro that I read at the beginning, Band Together, Promo Kitchen, Promo Cares, Board Chair. You're doing a lot. And I want to sort of shift this to a personal conversation now. As a leader, I think people would look at how many irons you have in the fire, how many things you have going on. You've always been able to maintain this incredible enthusiasm, which is so inspiring to somebody like me. What's changed over the years that makes your focus so much sharper and healthier now?

Yeah, this is my favorite question, maybe because it's the hardest question. As I take a deep breath, do you have any idea how good you are, by the way? You are just, you are so good at this.

I just ask the questions, man.

You know, well, they're good questions. I hope it's not too late in life to realize that if the people that you love the most, they're not rooting for you or celebrating you, that you probably missed an opportunity, you know, and I think And that really strikes a chord for me because Robert and my wife Nicole, amazing, like partners in life. I mean, both, you know, Robert, 28 years in the business, 44 years of friendship. You know, Nicole's, we've been together for 25 years of marriage. It's been hard and beautiful and all that. But I don't know, you just have to, I am thinking about as a leader now, like how do I make this opportunity that I have in my life that I've worked really hard for to make this journey a about something that's just, that's bigger than myself. And I've always done that in the back of my mind. But today, at my age, I'm trying to shine a light on and empower other people in this season. And I'm trying to be kind of more pushing more people ahead and being more of a thoughtful whisperer than kind of how I'm known, which is like frenetic Energizer Bunny. I'm like an espresso shot. I'm high energy. I'm go, go, go. I'm ready, fire, aim. And so I think I'm trying to really pause a little more and make sure that the light is on other people, staff members and people coming up through the ranks in PrimoCare. So stepping away a little bit, at the same time still doing what I love. I hope that, that hits home for people.

Absolutely. Absolutely, man. You are, you're going to hate this part. You're probably the industry's greatest encourager. And I think that's one of the— I think that's one of the most beautiful things about you. And you and Robert have always been such encouragements to me. So anyways, my friend, it's been great to have you back on the SkewCast again for, I don't know, the umpteenth time. Thanks for all of your always giving me feedback and for tuning in. Danny is— it's funny, if you ever email Danny or reach out to him, you know what the funny thing is? He responds. And he responds right away. And it's always been one of these interesting things about Danny because he cares. But thanks for— I'm going to keep going on and I'm going to drift off.

And let me just say, I do care. I also really care about you and I love you and I appreciate the invite to be back again. Love, love everything that Common Skew is doing.

Thanks, my friend. You bet. Chat soon.