Episode 99: CMO Series, Saadia Bryant with Gemline

Welcome to Skucast, the podcast for entrepreneurs in the promotional products industry. Skucast shines a light on our industry's best work, features maverick personalities, and discusses what's really involved in running a modern promotional products business. Skucast is the official podcast of Common Skew. Hello and welcome to SkewCast. This is Mark Graham, and we are back with another edition of our Supplier CMO series. In this series, we interview prominent marketing professionals on the supplier side to uncover what it takes to market effectively within our industry. Industry. Supplier marketing professionals often play a less visible role compared to their sales colleagues. This is not entirely surprising given sales is very much on the front lines of our business. This series is designed to uncover the personalities of our supplier marketers and to better understand the role that marketing plays in bringing promotional products to market. I am very pleased to welcome Sadia Bryant, to the SkewCast today. Sadia is the Director of Digital Marketing at Gemline, one of the industry's bellwether companies providing everything from bags to writing instruments to some of the world's most recognized brands. In her role, Sadia oversees a team of marketers that cover everything from trade marketing to digital engagement on multiple platforms. Prior to joining Gemline about one year ago, Sadia spent years cutting her teeth in the B2C world at brands like Reebok and Crabtree Evelyn. I wanted to talk to her about what marketing looks like through her eyes and what the future looks like for Gemline. I hope you enjoy this conversation. So welcome to the SkewCast, Sadia. It's wonderful to have you here. It's a great pleasure to spend a little bit of time with you on the, on this podcast.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

So can you tell me a little bit about your background before you joined Gemline?

Sure. I've been with Gemline since May of last year, so coming up on a year but not quite there yet. My background really is in marketing consumer goods and services, so I spent the majority of my career at Reebok in a variety of different positions, both domestic marketing and global marketing roles that encompassed you know, some B2B. I worked as the marketing lead as part of a sales team for a while, so calling on big national retailers, but also led very large direct-to-consumer integrated multimedia campaigns. That was really more my global role. I also worked for a small boutique advertising agency in Boston that specialized in the travel and hospitality industry for about 6 years, and I was on the account management side, so really the liaison between the client and the creative team and the rest of the agency. So really working kind of as a business partner. And then most recently, before joining Gemline, I was head of marketing for the Americas for Crabtree and Evelyn, which, if you're not familiar with that brand, it's a personal care brand. They make soaps, lotions, hand cream, that type of thing. And they have retail, wholesale, and e-commerce as their distribution points.

Such a fascinating background. I just love the, the whole experience that you bring to the table from a B2C perspective. And I think we'll get more into that as we go through. But thank you for sharing your background. So what attracted you to the marketing role at Gemline and the promotional products industry?

To be quite honest, you know, if you had asked me when I was going to college if I would end up in the promotional products industry, I would have said, what?

You and me both.

Right? You know, my role here, I know my title is digital marketing, but I really oversee all of Gemline's marketing efforts, both online and offline. And so what attracted me to the company and the role were, one, I came in, I was just really impressed with the team. Just met really smart people, and that was attractive. It's always good to, you know, work with people that you think you can learn from, and I definitely felt that way. I was really attracted to the environment here. Gemline has this culture of continuous improvement, and they really live it. That's something I've learned here. And so they're really open to change and making, you know, looking for improvements And that was something that's attractive as well because not all companies function that way. And then I think the company itself, you know, just the fact that when I think about promotional products, you know, I think one of the things that's interesting about Gemline is, you know, we're a design-build company. I mean, we design and manufacture 80% of what we sell. And so that really brings a lot of my background into play in terms of working for Reebok or Crabtree and Evelyn. You know, again, it's bringing products to market that the company has designed and researched and created. So there was a lot of synergy there for me.

Right. Even though Reebok and Crabtree and Evelyn are more B2C brands, did you find that there was any disconnect between that past consumer experience that you had when you brought it into a B2B environment, Gemline, in the promotional industry?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's some definite differences in the roles I've had before, even where I've had B2B as part of it. So let's say, you know, I'm working with at Reebok and selling the, you know, helping the sales team sell the product into retailers like a, you know, Nordstrom or Target or, you know, a Sears, which has clearly fallen on hard times. But, you know, you're selling— your sales job there is to the retailer. Then you have to translate that to the actual customer. But the difference there is Gemline doesn't have a campaign that's direct to consumer, and then it's also, you know, an additional campaign that's really more B2B. It's all B2B. So that's really been a difference in thinking. However, ultimately what we do still needs to appeal to that buyer who's making that decision. So I do think that, you know, my direct-to-consumer experience does come into play there because I'm trying to think beyond, yes, we need to create tools and get our message across to distributors, but we're still selling to that person who's making the buying decision.

Yeah. And knowing Gemline for as long as I've known the company, I know that the idea of brand, a breed of brand steward, and this whole concept of design being a core principle, those are all things that are so tied up in the B2C world. I mean, if you don't have a great brand and you don't have great design and you don't have great customer experience, you're pretty much dead in the B2C world. You can certainly get by much further in the B2B world without those attributes. There's no question. So I, I can see where there'd be that right fit with your consumer background, specifically at a company like Gemline. So you've been on the job for about a year, as you said in your intro. Be honest here, what are some things that frustrate you about the industry as you see it today? Because I see you as a relative outsider. I mean, you're part of the club now because it's been about a year, but relatively speaking, you're new to this space. So I think that you could probably be honest in saying this frustrates me, this is broken. If you're willing to share, what is it?

Yeah, so it's actually interesting. And I know I'm not offended that you call me an outsider. That's fine. You know, you actually touched on it in your comment prior to this. One of the things that I think is frustrating is that idea of brands, right? So Gemline, I find it really interesting that we work really hard to create marketing materials and tout our products as Gemline products, but the distributor wants to strip all that away and go to their customer with a suite of products that they don't want to identify by where they came from. And so that for me is really frustrating because I do think one of the challenges is how do we make sure that Gemline is recognized for what we're doing and that doesn't get lost in mix. I do find that to be a challenge. And so I feel that a lot of promotional products can be very commodity-driven, and that's not unusual in other industries either. It depends upon the industry. But as you said, you know, the brand image of Gemline, even though we have brands, you know, like Samsonite or Igloo, we have consumer brands under our umbrella, but Gemline gets sometimes lost in that conversation. And I think that's an opportunity where We, because we do so much work and we are design-build and we're not, you know, going to China and buying things off the shelf, like that's a real differentiation for us. I'm not sure how to solve that yet, but it's something that's always in the back of my mind.

I think that's fascinating. And I could also imagine why that would be weird and frustrating for you as someone who's coming into the business. And I think that the only thing that I can say, given my past distributor background, is that it's easy to go to a customer and present it as Samsonite or present it as Igloo or present it as Roomie because those are maybe more identifiable brands to the end customer. And there's, there's value there. I think that where things start to fall down, and this would certainly apply to suppliers that are in your competitive basket like Logomark or Polyconcept or even companies like HITT, if I think the distributor views it as a brand that may not have instant recognition of the end customer, then it almost goes into a different category. It's not to say that it's a lesser category. I just think that the distributor is probably thinking back to negative experiences where the end customer has Googled the product SKU and has gone and found it somewhere else and they get burned. Now, that's a whole separate podcast in terms of maybe the distributor is lacking a value proposition. If they're worried about that, that's very clearly a separate conversation. But. But I can imagine for you, that's probably one of the first things you said to Jonathan when you got hired and said, why is this? And I'm sure that Jonathan had a very long answer for you as to why that was happening.

You know, I think one of Gemline's focuses though, and challenges though, is making sure that our value proposition isn't lost in that conversation. And so collectively, that's something that we as an organization are trying to figure out. How do we make sure that that's not lost? Even with the distributors, because to your point, yes, I totally understand what you're saying. But I think again, what makes Gemline different is the fact that we design and build. And so there is a whole value in what we invest a lot of money in research. You know, we do our own research, you know, we try— our designers travel. And so there's a lot of work that goes into every product that we put out. So that is what makes us different and why we're may not be exactly like some of the other people that, you know, are part of our competitor set.

Yeah, exactly. So I want to shift gears a little bit, and I want to dig into the marketing department and the discipline of marketing at Gemline. First question is, can you tell me about the makeup of the marketing team at Gemline right now? The size, the different roles, how many people report into you?

So we're small but mighty. I have 6 people in my group, and it's a mixture of brand communications, which really focuses on, you know, the advertising that we do. We still produce a lookbook, photography, video. So those type of pieces that are really, I'll call it, customer-facing. Trade marketing, which is really working on, you know, with some of our— we have a national account group, so some of the larger customers and partnering with them on product placement and, you know, some of their marketing tools and making sure that we are integrated and take it take advantage of as many opportunities as we can. We have a graphic designer as part of our group, and then we have really a digital marketing component, which really is managing, you know, our content and presence on our own website, and then with platforms like ESP and Sage and Distributor Central and CommonScale.

Of all the things that you just mentioned, so A, it sounds like you've got a lot of moving parts and a lot of different people that report into you, you think about the channels that you invest in, would you be able to identify the most effective one for you?

It's a really interesting question when you talk about effectiveness, right? So, effectiveness, you know, when you think about it, really comes down to being able to measure. And in order to measure, you need to establish what it is you want to measure and what is considered a success. That's something that, to be honest, you know, we meaning Gemline, can get better at. So I don't know if I can talk about most effective or least effective. I think it comes down to what are you trying to measure and what were your expected outcomes and did those measure up to those at all? I think when you talk about effectiveness, there are things that we can measure. So, you know, I can— we can send an email out and I can know click-through rates. I can know how many people, you know, opened it. So there's metrics that I know what our average is and I know which ones are good and which ones are, you know, fall below. So I can tell the effectiveness and the cost per email, our CPMs are really, really low. So measuring effectiveness because we can't— we don't sell products through our website yet. You can order samples, so I can't translate that into sales. Is it effective in terms of the CPM? Absolutely. In terms of what I'm reaching, is it effective in terms of does it translate into sales? I can't yet measure that. So it's kind of situational, if that makes sense.

I mean, maybe another way of positioning the question is, is there a channel that gets more attention than others at the company? And if so, what would that channel be?

A channel meaning online, offline?

So more specifically, it could be trade shows versus offline advertisements and trade publications, digital marketing advertisements, so on and so forth.

What I can share with you is that, you know, our three largest focuses really in terms of— trade shows play a huge role still. Our advertising is a big piece of what we do, and our own website is a big focus for us. You know, we spend a lot of time, you know, making sure that our products are up to date. It's a good resource and research tool both for our internal team as well as our external team. And that, and coupled with the time that we spend just on the platforms overall and making sure that We are doing our best to be front and center, getting in front of, you know, our distributor partners.

Right. It's interesting how you have one foot firmly in the offline world. So specifically, you mentioned advertising. You also mentioned trade shows, but you also have one foot firmly planted in digital, whether it's platforms or whether digital advertising. How do you find digital marketing at Gemline complements the offline marketing channels? So you could give an example with trade shows specifically, or really anything that you want, And I'm just fascinated by the interplay between those two at a company like Gemline.

We just had our first major launch of 2019 in January, and that also coincides with PPAI when we produce one of our lookbooks. We used to call it Style Guide, but it's a lookbook, but it's a printed piece that we do. Our approach to all of that is to make sure that they're synergistic. So when we started planning them out, We're looking at the photography that we're doing and making sure that we can use that in the offline and online channels. So the imagery that you see in that printed piece is also what you saw in our booth at PPAI, and it's also what we're using in our digital advertising. And then we also use that imagery in a lot of the collection flyers that we did, which are, you know, tools that both are leave-behind as well as they're available on our website. Website, you know, to help cull our very large line down into selling stories. So really looking from an integrated perspective, how do we make sure that the online and offline do complement each other? Because just from a customer experience, you don't want to have someone have a completely different experience with an online piece versus an offline piece, or something tactile that isn't tactile. Like, it's really important to have a consistent image and message across all of it.

Yeah, well, exactly. And I think that what's such an interesting opportunity, and I also think probably a significant challenge for Gemline, is that given your size and given how ubiquitous you are in the industry, you deal with literally the gamut of customer types or distributor types. So you're going to have some distributors that have been in the industry for quite some time, are used to traditional catalogs. I know you got rid of your mainline catalog recently, but they're used to a specific way of interacting with you. And then you've got younger distributors that are coming into the industry that don't have any of that experience or baggage that some of these older distributors have. They don't have those habits and they're coming in, they may be in their 20s and they don't care about a lot of the traditional ways of doing things. So you also have to come across as relevant to them. So I suppose that's a comment, but the question in there is, How is that something that you as a marketer navigate at Gemline, where on one hand you have to, you have to still be relevant to these modern buyers, but at the same time you don't want to alienate presumably your core, your base, which are these distributors that have supported you for some time? From a marketing challenge, that's got to be a tremendous challenge you're dealing with.

It is a challenge. I think, you know, we still do things like if someone really wants a catalog even though we don't print it. There is a digital version on the website that you can go and create and download an entire PDF. So if you've got to have that thing with all that information in it, we still make sure that that's maintained and is up to date. You know, on the other hand, you know, something that may be more progressive like our lookbook that has no pricing in it, it's really image-driven. And the role of that is really to drive awareness and interest and get people to our website where they get into the nitty-gritty of the product should they choose to. And that, you know, is probably frustrating for somebody who's used to getting a catalog and they want to flip the pages and see every piece of information about that product. So it's just trying to balance both and making sure that we have tools available to satisfy different types of audiences, right?

I think that you're doing a good job of that because one hand you want to make sure you're not alienating either side of the market, but you also don't want to come across as being too in the middle either because then you're not appealing to either side. So I think more than anything, it's a true opportunity for a larger supplier like you to really embrace innovation and investments in new ways of communicating, but at the same time not alienating that base. Yeah. What is the biggest marketing challenge facing Gemline today?

There are many challenges, right? There's never only one, but I think one of the biggest ones is just improving our ability to do more more one-to-one marketing. So segmenting our customers and being able to speak to them in a more relevant and meaningful way. And that means delivering the right messaging at the right time to the right customer. And, you know, we have some initiatives going on internally that will help us get there, but I think that's really where the opportunity is. And that's something that makes you more efficient and effective. You know, we recently did an email test where we were able to do and segmentation based on information that we gathered at PPAI. And, you know, the open rates for those emails were much higher and the activity rates, they actually did click through to the content that we wanted them to click through. And the time that they spent on that content was longer. So it's improving that so that we're much more efficient, but with that comes additional complexity in terms of managing even more different types of customers and expanding that versus just not just traditional and younger, but really segmenting them by what they buy, where their interests are, the type of customers that they have. And I think that's really where we have an opportunity to become more efficient with our messaging.

You'd be able to segment on a whole host of different criteria, whether it's a new customer of Gemlines, whether it's an older customer of Gemlines, whether it's a customer that's ordered bags from you versus a customer that's ordered writing instruments versus a customer that deals with beverage industry versus a customer who deals with the automotive industry. Is that what you're saying that you're ultimately trying to go there to send targeted campaigns where the content is different depending on who's receiving it? I think that's really interesting. I can imagine there's no end of complexity in designing something around that. But I certainly know, you know, just even my experience, that it's so difficult to wade through all of the supplier communication over email because a lot of it is not really directed towards you, or it feels like it's just been spammed out to everyone. And that's challenging because then distributors start to tune out, and then suppliers really miss that opportunity. Whereas you contrast that with something that's more targeted based on some experience you've had with that supplier. Forget about the industry. I mean, just think about what we're like as consumers when we're dealing with brands that we love offline or online. We tend to gravitate towards the ones that really customize that experience and build that relationship with us as opposed to feeling like I'm getting something that doesn't really apply to me. Well, anyways, I wish you the best of luck in overcoming that challenge. So, no, No podcast with anyone at Gemline would be complete without asking a question about Jonathan Isaacson, of course, your fearless founder and CEO. So my question is, Jonathan is a strong-willed and successful leader. How have you challenged his thinking since you joined the company almost a year ago?

He knows the industry inside and out. He's well respected for his perspectives and insights. He really eats, lives, breathes the industry, and so I feel fortunate to be able to learn from him. You know, my experience has been it's not so much about challenging his thinking, but it's about asking questions about why we're doing what we're doing and having there a willingness and an openness to try something different. So, you know, for example, in the past, you know, Gemline has gone to market with, here's our, all of our new Here are all of our new backpacks. Here are all of our new coolers. And, you know, one of the things that we did when we brought out our January launch is I made the suggestion and clearly went with it, but the team helped make it happen, was we looked at it and we said, you know what, maybe we have an opportunity to do this differently and to tell more stories about how that product might be used. So, if you think about tote bags, yes, tote bags is a category. There's all different types of tote bags. But why do you want a tote bag? If you have a tote bag for a meeting and convention, you probably have a very different set of criteria than if you're looking for a tote bag that's for travel or an executive gift. So really looked at how do we tell those stories a little bit differently and bring more context to them. And there was a willingness to give it a try. And I'm happy to say that we got really positive feedback, not not only from our internal team, but also at PPI is kind of where we kind of unveiled this and even merchandised our booth that way and really got overwhelmingly positive response. So that's just one example. But I think, again, it's not so much about challenging his thinking. I think it's about just challenging what we're doing and why we're doing it and having acceptance to try and do things differently. And if the reception to that wasn't great, then okay, we would have pivoted to something else. And I think there's the ability here, or the willingness here, to try things. And, you know, if they work, great, we'll continue down the path and fine-tune it and work at it. And if they don't, then we're willing to pivot, right?

Well, I think that's also one of the key benefits that you get when you bring in someone without that industry baggage, without that industry experience, because you see that. You see that where you've got this groupthink mentality where it's hard to break outside the industry. So I think that asking those questions is good. And clearly you found a home where people are prepared to answer those questions or at least accommodate them.

Yeah. Or ask the question with me and say, we don't know. I think sometimes that's just as important of an answer instead of having one.

Right. Yeah, that's true. That's true. As opposed to trying to BS your way around it. It's like, hey, I don't know. Let's work on this together. What is your proudest accomplishment on the job so far?

Two things come to mind. One is really just being able to feel like I'm part of the culture and really working with my team. I've got a great team that they inherited me, but I think, you know, it's been great to be able to come into a company and just have a really great supportive organization and team. And then second, I would say that really this January launch was my first opportunity to kind of steer a lot of what the communication tools were, what they looked like in the messaging, and just had a lot of positive response both internally and externally. So feeling really good about that.

Oh, that's great. Well, congratulations. So what's on your desk right now?

What isn't on my desk?

So that's a better question. Yeah.

You know, a variety of projects, both big and small, so we're actually gearing up for our next launch, which will be in April. So we have a lot of logistical things happening around that. There's also some small things like performance— well, that's not small. I've got performance reviews on my desk. You know, we've got some large digital initiatives that the company is investing in, and so there's a lot of workshops and ramp-up work being done to get to our CRM system and some other exciting things that are coming down the pipeline.

So it varies. Yeah, no, absolutely. And then how about literally what's on your desk? Like, I'm curious to know, do you have like a coffee cup with a Gemline logo on it?

Or, uh, I have got a Mir coffee cup in front of me, and Mir is a partner that we announced at PPAI. So I've got this lovely camp cup on my desk that I love. Beautiful line. Yeah, yeah. I've got a Gemline Bluetooth speaker and the standard computer. Even though my title says digital marketing, I will admit there's some paper on my desk.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. So you're, you're a marketer that has an organized desk. You don't have a lot of stuff on it. Sounds great. You're nice and organized, even though you do cling on to some paper, which I do as well, even though I consider myself someone who's very much into the digital space. It's surprising how much I love a good notebook and a good pen as well.

I do too. I write and think. That's just how my brain works. So, you know, I always have a notebook with me because I just— that's just how I digest information.

All right. So I'm curious to ask you, I've just got one or two more questions and I could really keep going on with you because this has been really, really wonderful. What three brands do you admire the most and why they can be either from the industry or they could be from outside the industry.

There's a few brands that stand out to me, and there's so many, especially so many people that are disrupting things right now. It's kind of exciting. Three that stand out. One is, if you think about it, Nordstrom. And I think about my background and I'm coming out of retail and that industry is really struggling right now and trying to figure it out. And Nordstrom, you know, has always been about service, and they figured out a way to expand that service model into the digital age. And they're being rewarded for it. They're one of the few retailers that you don't hear stories about where they're closing or they're struggling, you know, and they've embraced both online and offline and tried to make that a very seamless experience. So there's somebody that I have a lot of respect for. In addition to that, Coke's on my list just for its longevity. It continues to make itself relevant. They've been around for over 100 years. And even just the willingness to, you know, they reinvigorated their whole Diet Coke brand last year with flavors that were meant to target millennials. But it worked. You know, it came down from can design to the flavors to, you know, they just continued to evolve. And I think that's something that, you know, I've seen some research that says if you look at the top, you know, 20 blue-chip companies from like the '90s, very few of them exist anymore. So business is tough. They've done a great job of also being consistent, but also, you know, willingness to adapt. The last one that comes to mind is Netflix. And the reason I talk about that is they've just been such a disruptor. I mean, who would have thought the company that was mailing you scratched DVDs would successfully challenge both the TV and the movies, movie industries. I mean, have you seen Bird Box? I mean, they're producing content that, you know, is being watched and digested, and that's really people's go-to. And it's not a lot of quality entertainment. I think they just continue to evolve and challenge. And again, scratch DVD days are long behind them, but it's just a really interesting way that they've been able to evolve and change with the marketplace and really reposition themselves.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And Bird Box is a pretty alarming and disturbing movie, that's for sure.

It is, but you know, who would have thought you'd be talking about a streaming service creating movie content that's consumed more than a movie in a movie theater?

It's incredible. What's interesting about those brands that you mentioned, I mean, at first glance you might think that there's not much in common between them, but I think is interesting is that clearly Nordstrom and Coke are brands and companies that have been around for some time and are notable because they've made this transition to the electronic age fairly effortlessly, or they've done it successfully. I'm sure there have been missteps along the way, but they've been able to do it successfully where those brands are very relevant today just as much as they were a couple decades ago. Netflix, of course, has only been around since the late '90s, but you think about the industry they're in, you think about the broader technology ecosystem, they might as well have been around for 100 years. You think about all the things that have changed in their 20 or so year history, going from, as you say, scratch DVDs to streaming and producing their own content, might as well be completely different businesses. In terms of distribution, in terms of investment. So what's clear to me is that you love brands that are market leaders, but also ones that have been able to weather the storms of time and change. So I don't know if I'm putting words in your mouth, but it's kind of interesting. And I relate that back to Gemline as a company that to some extent could be the Coke or a Coke of our industry in that you're large, you've got lots of influence, you've been around for quite some time, but you're also navigating this change. So anyways, I just thought of that. I don't know if it's an appropriate parallel, but, uh, it's one that came to mind.

Yeah, no, I think that's a fair point because, you know, there, there are brands that come and go, um, and I think longevity for any brand or any company is a testament to being adaptable. And I think the smart and healthy ones usually are that, and I think that's admirable.

Well, Sadia, thank you so much for all of your, your time and all of, uh, all these great lessons that you've shared. And I know we covered a bunch of different topics, but it's been a real pleasure having you on the SkuCast. And we wish you all the very best as you continue to disrupt things and put your stamp on the company as well as the industry.

Oh, well, thank you. You give me a little too much credit there, but I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you. And I'm still learning in the industry, but I look forward to continuing on this journey.

So thanks for your time. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of SkuCast. Be sure to keep up with our latest content by subscribing to SkuCast on iTunes or to our blog at community.commsku.com. Until next time, friends, thanks so much for listening.