Transforming TA into Talent Advisory with Elias Albino

So this is a perfect example where, you know, if you're just following a set of, you know, a set of processes, you're going into a. No, a talent neuron or some, or a LinkedIn insight and you're just getting that information and then sharing that information with your hiring manager. You're acting like a service delivery project. If you understand that, that, that line hiring managers business, if you have a level of influence, then you can have a dialogue. You can understand and say, look, this perfect unicorn that you want is not available. Can we trim here, can we adjust there? But in order for you to do this, you need to understand that hiring manager business. Right?

You're very welcome to another episode of the Hiring Excellence Podcast. I'm Johnny Campbell, CEO of Social Talent and I'm joining you today from Barcelona. Well, actually siches just outside Barcelona from Villarosa, where we're hosting a bunch of fantastic talent acquisition leaders for a few days, talking about the topics that are most current and most on our minds. And with that, it's a pleasure to be joined in person for a change on the podcast with Elias Albino. And Elias runs TA over at Syngenta Group. I'm going to have Ellis explain that to you in just a second. And we're going to be digging into today the transformation that Syngenta is going through and the move from more of a transactional approach to recruiting to much more business advisory, talent advisory, business partnering approach and the why behind that. Alice, you're very welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here in person. I wonder if you could perhaps give our listeners a bit of an idea of your own career background, how you got to where you are today and then maybe introduce Ngenta and explain how the organization works in size and what you're doing in case our audience may not be as familiar with, with the, with the brand.

Oh, of course. So first of all, my name is Ilas Albino. I'm originally from Brazil. I have been with Syngenta now for four years. Prior to that, I worked for about 15 years for Deutsche Post DHL. I actually, even though I'm originally from Brazil, my, my kind of corporate career started in the US before that I used to work for an NGO and it was a bit kind of by accident and I fell into, into talent acquisition at that time. I used to work for this NGO which was, which support the leadership development through the exchange of people. And you know, this topic of youth leadership and youth development was something that DHL at that time felt was an interesting topic for them to pursue. And then I was tasked to kind of work with their graduate program in the us So I started with ta, then I moved into kind of the broader kind of LND talent space, did a bit of HR operations, eventually moved to Germany, did some HR transformation there, and then went into business partnering. I was a regional business partner for one of the divisions in dhl. Then I went back to the US because when I was in the US and I was with ta, we did an outsourcing of the TA organization and when I was in Germany, they asked me to go back to insource back the team. So I did another stint in ta and then after that I kind of went full into the business partner world and I have been a global business partner for about nine years, so supporting mainly corporate functions, so CFO, COOs, CIOs. And then for the past two years or so I have also been running the Syngenta business services hr. So kind of the GPS for Syngenta. And when this transformation for TA was identified right then somehow, even though I was not someone that was hiring in Syngento to do ta, my profile somehow kind of raised in the company because of my experience transforming some of the, you know, with the, some of the work we did in the, in the gbs and, and, and the work around business partnering, which I'm going to talk about in, in a second. And that's how I end up kind of getting this, this, this challenge right from Syngenta. You know, if you are in the agricultural business, for sure, you know, Syngenta, you know, it's, it's the, but I can understand that many people won't, because, you know, if you're not close to Agritech, that that's a brand that's not maybe not so well known, but, but Syngenta is one of the world leaders in agricultural technology, Agritech. So it's the number one in crop protection and biologicals and then number three in seeds. And you know, this is a topic that for me is, is quite a one that I develop quite a bit of passion. And you know, the company kind of teaches you how important agriculture is because agriculture is something that people take for granted, right? But we don't realize that in the last 70 years, you know, agriculture had to feed 5 billion more people in the same space of land that we had, you know, since the early, the beginning of the century. And the biggest challenge is that with China growing, India and all this, this country is growing, you know, we're expecting by 2050 to have about 2 billion people more. To have those 2 billion people more, we need to produce about 50% more food than we do today. So from that, from that scenario, Syngenta really plays a very important role because what, what the agricultural technology does and people don't sometimes don't connect the element around agriculture and technology, right. They think, you know, agriculture is something, you know, manual or labor. But the reality is that, you know, the yield of, of the farms, especially the big farms, is incredibly dependent on, on the products that you use, the technology use from a soil health perspective from, from a crop protection, biologicals and everything. So Syngente is a, is a large company with, with about 60,000 employees. The group about 30 billion in, in revenue. Of course, you know, the, the, the industry itself has been going through some very strong headwinds in the past years, mostly as a result of the kind of the post Covid world where there was a huge increase in supply and especially new players from, in China and India started kind of, you know, flooding the market with generics.

It's.

We are in, in our industry, we're facing a situation similar to when the generics were introduced in life science, right, where you just have to find your way to differentiate. So that's about, you know, that's about it, I guess from a, from a Syngenta perspective. I don't know if you have any other specific, specific question.

Well, last night we shared lots of other opinions and questions and you were able to bring a fascinating insight. And growing up in Brazil, moving to Europe and everything else, which we won't go there for this podcast, I'd love to know about the transformation. Obviously you have a background in transformation, and I'm gathering the best person to do a transformation is a transformation expert. You probably don't like the word expert, but someone who's had a history of transformation, I'm sure there's a lot of learnings there and probably that applies to any area and particularly in hr. Why or what sparked this transformation, particularly in ta. What was, what was the before and what was the reason to now change it?

Okay, so, well, first of all, right, generally when transformation happens, right, it's very easy for you to discard the past, right, and kind of, you know, ignore everything that has happened. But many things have a reason to exist, right? And in the case of our, you know, in our case there was a, you know, a very sound logic for why we were structured that way. So basically when the Syngenta group was created by combining you know, several business units. There was a decision that we wanted to have a lean group with empowered business units because this was the time, you know, shortly after Covid, where the business was booming. You know, we grew like some of our business units grew like 25% in one year. So at that time it made a lot of sense to have as this, you know, as a decentralized organization as possible because TA had to jump into whatever need that specific country, that specific business had. Well, the situation has changed, as I mentioned, with the, with the, with the influx of the generics and with all the headwinds that we faced the company. You know, also the margin of the company eroded quite a bit. And then, you know, it was the time to start looking, okay, what can we do to, to change that? And as a general kind of strategy for the company, we have our strategy divided by two phases. You know, the phase one is about getting fit, which is kind of navigating through some of this, this headwind. And then phase two is about accelerating innovation. Because another thing which I didn't mention from a, from a syngen perspective is that from an R and D perspective, we have the strongest portfolio of all of our competitors. So from a future proof perspective, we are in a really good place. But if we don't sort out this phase one, then you might compromise that innovation piece. So that's what happened. Right? So we had ta multiple TA organizations, you know, by bu, by region, sometimes by country, by by function. You know, our IT team had its own TA small TA organization. So now we are consolidating everything, which is the biggest step. And again, you know, to align with the business. I'm also aligning our strategy from a TA perspective from this kind of phase one, phase two point, point of view. So in the phase one, we are consolidating the teams. We have reduced already our team by about, you know, 30 FTEs. We still have about 80 in our team. But everyone is today is an end to end recruiter. And one thing that we want to do is to enable the team to evolve more into a business partnering relationship. Especially because Syngenta is a strong relationship building organization. It's an organization that works a lot through cooperation and through partnership. So having that relationship with stakeholders is very important. But the problem is that in order for someone to have those capabilities and be able to spend time with the business, understand the business, have that influence, you need to free up capacity. And so to free up capacity, we're also setting up a layer of operations, TA operations and the Initial steps of a sourcing layer capability which also, and that also includes talent intelligence as well as executive recruitment. But again, it's the first steps, right? It's the main focus for the phase one is to making sure that we're leveraging the synergies across the bus so that we can optimize the team.

So you're moving, this is a moving car that you're trying to upgrade as it's moving. So going from a situation where recruiters were 360 degree recruiters working, you know, locally in an OPCO, a GEO, whatever that might be reporting, I imagine it's local hr, I guess you flick a switch and say your reporting line changes. Yes, but I imagine, you know, day one, the recruiter stays working on the same rec she's working on for the same business unit. Will you do you plan to keep that alignment, that the recruiters are still aligned, although centralized in the reporting structure and now part of a global team? Will they still serve as the same business units, geographies, etc. Or are you making some changes there?

Yeah, so from, from, from a placement, from a workforce placement perspective, we are consolidating, we did a lot of work already in consolidating the teams in some centers which we have across the world, which are leveraging the broader capability for service delivery. We will keep for sure talent partners in some of the key geographies because as I mentioned, Syngenta is a relationship building company. So you need to have like in places like France in places and in other places where you know, you need to have that relationship. But going back into their point around the how do you organize from a geography perspective, we're trying to have a combination of both vertical and horizontal, meaning that the vertical piece will be that the teams still organize themselves broadly as regions, covering multiple buses instead of 1 bu each, but covering multiple bus. But we are also establishing this concept of the communities of practice which cut across the regions for areas like for example, in our business, production and supply is a really big piece of the puzzle from a TA perspective it and digital. So the idea is that you have the teams organized by region, but you form a community of people that exchange, you know, best practices and engage and develop that expertise around an horizontal line with and this is something that we're still developing. But the idea is that also like some of the senior stakeholders in those functions in those areas will also have some type of, you know, single point of contour, like a rock. So that's what we're trying to do. From, you know, to keep that geography still align, but providing a bit more structure to the functions and teams who have also a global type of organization.

And did you start with a common system? Did you always have the same ATS or CRM or have you had to try and consolidate that into one system?

No. So we have been for the past two and a half years with smart recruiters and our HR system is workday. Um, you know, it's. I've, you know, this morning we were just talking about ats and the challenge is that I, I don't think I ever seen a team that loves their ATS or loves their integration with their hcm. Like it's, you know, from the back in the day with the taleo times, you know, success factors and you know, I've seen so many of these ATSs. So generally what I try to do is I try to follow this idea that, you know, you, the order should be people process data technology. Right. So from that point of view, we intend to allow the ATS to land for a little bit longer because also we're in the middle of this transformation. I don't want to add another element of transformation. And smart recruiters in the end of the day is kind of meeting the requirements. Let's just say is a move into some type of integrated platform with workday because we have our talent management in workday a possibility? Yes. Is it happening in the short future, in the long future? I don't know. But the idea is that we at least now have all the teams in the same ETS with the exception of two of our business units. That one, that is the generic business unit, Adama, who has a different brand, so they a different ats. And our China business, which is very, very big, which is also in, in. In successfact.

Is there a seasonality to the hiring in different parts of the world? Can I ask that from the perspective of is there an opportunity to leverage downtime for. You know, traditionally when they were decentralized, I imagine some teams had quiet periods whilst other parts of the world, other businesses were crazy. And is there an opportunity now that folks can, can move their resources to a different business unit whilst they're quiet and move back and.

Yes.

How has that played out?

Yeah, look, and that's actually a big challenge we have which is, you know, seasonality is one element, but there's also the element of the diversity of the bus because in the agtech business, you know, the seeds business and the crop protection business are very different business, you know, they have Very different needs, you know, very different seasonalities. And so for example, our seeds business now is going through a big transformation around really focusing on some of the high growth markets and adjusting headcount and everything in areas where that's not the case. So you have now that we've combined all the BU teams into one, right? You have the seeds, which was the team, that was the seeds team with capacity available and then other areas where you don't. And then you end up having also some these geographies. Like for example, our North America business is now more in a, in a stable situation and it's, it's not growing as, as fast as it did in the past. So there, there's much more concern around headcount in Brazil, for example, where it's booming, then there is much more demand. And the thing is because of this historical challenges, some of these teams, they are still adjusted to the previous reality, right? So we are having to make sure that the teams kind of support each other and leverage that capability. And that's one of the reasons which I've been speaking with the team openly about this, that as individuals leave the team. I don't have any intention of doing any further layoffs or anything like this. But as people move on natural attrition, we will be replacing most of those roles in our centers in Montevideo, Budapest and Pune. Just because this gives us much more scalability, right. Than what we have today.

When you look at the, you mentioned the people processes and you mentioned a third thing and then data and tech, I love that. Process wise, have you had to standardize all the processes? Were there common processes for how we hire, how we raise a wreck, how we disposition the candidate, et cetera, et cetera, or do you have to bring all that stuff in?

Yeah, so we are in the process of doing that, right. You mentioned like, you know, we are building the airplane while flying, right. Like so we are actually, you know, next week I have our steering committee for the, for the, we call Evolve TA the project. And there we're going to be presenting the new global process. The idea is that, you know, today we have extremely fragmented processes between India, Europe, North America. And the idea is now we're going to have one standard global process including the, you know, the key defined handovers for the TA operations organization and the sourcing layer that we are establishing. So you know, this is not an easy thing because you take for example a country like Switzerland, which is our headquarters, right? And you know, it's headquarters so you have that kind of vip white Glove mentality. And the team who is mostly in Budapest supporting Switzerland, they really struggle because sometimes they don't understand why there are so many of these variations. But before we didn't have a global process that I could go to the Swiss team and say, look, this is our global process. What you're asking to do is not in scope. Now we can. So this, now will, will generate this, this next level of discussion of saying, look, this is the global process. If you want us to do, you know, onboarding or, you know, for example, I had some time ago where there was a request for us to send a letter to the government related to someone's mobility issue or whatever. Because again, because TA has resources, right? People just think like, oh, let's just give this to ta. But if you don't establish those boundaries, the team will really struggle. But so now with this global process, this will allow us to happen again. Maybe in the future I can share how successful that was because it's, it's early days, but that's a big challenge.

How are you thinking about Flex on that? Like, you know, a lot of, lot of folks from the design, this would look at a kind of federal, state, local model where you might have federated processes that are just have to be, but then you might have variation at a call the state level in terms, it could be opco, could be geography going, there's some flexibility around this. And then, you know, other things you decide yourselves, like have you, have you, have you built that kind of a structure where there's, there's, there's flexibility in that?

Yeah, more or less. So basically, yes, some flexibility is always needed. But one thing that I've learned in this time working the business services industry, you know, with, with finance, operations, procurement, operations, everything is, you know, that flexibility needs to be limited to legal requirements, compliance requirements. If you leave it to, you know, preference or desires, then you're never going to have a standard process and it's going to be very difficult for you to drive scalability, right? Because if every talent partner runs a different process because that specific country likes to do things in a different way. So we're going to be pushing this global process and in the global process, we will allow of course, some flexibility. For example, in places like Germany, France, Switzerland, where you have some requirements from a legal perspective, those will of course be accommodated. But that's it. Right? Like we cannot allow for this, you know, this whatever country prefers to do.

I want to get into the people piece and particularly the business partnering piece you mentioned at the start, obviously that not only was the structure didn't allow flex for moving recruiters into different parts of the business because they were all localized and there was a no standard process. But how they work is important. You mentioned there was more of a transactional approach to recruiting and you're trying to move more towards again, your experience, which is more business partnering. Define transactional. What does that look like? How did that show up? And then maybe share with me your view of what, what does it look like to be a business partner in a recruiting context and how do you get there?

Yeah, look, and again, I don't have the answer yet. Right. But that's the, that's part of the journey. But the thing for me is the analogy that I always make with my team is that, you know, it's, it's similar to what HR went through, you know, when you had this move from generalist to a business partner. You know, what is the difference between, you know, a generalist and a business partner? And of course there are many, many things that are, you know, taken in consideration. But for me, I think the number one, in my experience, the number one thing that differentiates someone that is a generalist and someone that is a business partner, even though sometimes the titles can be interchanged, right. Is influence. Is this capacity that you have of influencing the decision, be it the business decision, being the hiring manager decision. And I think that's one of the, the, the, the, the main challenge that I see with the team where, you know, when you are purely a kind of a end to end360 recruiter and you're just kind of an order taker, you know, you will be treated as an undertaker, you know, you'll be, you'll be seen as a service delivery organization, which is, there's nothing wrong about being a service delivery organization. But in some cases, you know, like if I look into some of the escalations that I get from our senior stakeholders, you know, like had two, you know, this week. They are mostly related to this element around. Look, your recruiters, they do a good job, they fill the job in the, you know, fairly reasonable amount of time. They do what needs to be done, but they don't understand my business. They, they understand my need, which creates a lot of frustration. I can give you an example, right, where recently I had a senior stakeholder come to me and say, look, your team came to me and said that there are no candidates at all available with that set of skills in that geography that I'm looking for. You know, that's crazy because I know company X, Y, Z that has those people. So this is a perfect example where, you know, if you're just following a set of, you know, a set of processes, you're going into, I know a talent neuron or some, or a LinkedIn insight, and you're just getting that information and then sharing that information with your hiring manager. You're acting like a service delivery practice. If you understand that hiring manager's business, if you have a level of influence, then you can have a dialogue. You can understand and say, look, this perfect unicorn that you want is not available. Can we trim here, can we adjust there? But in order for you to do this, you need to understand that hire manager business, right? So that for me is one of the most important things is that we had kind of a change management call some time ago. And you know, one of the speakers there was, was speaking about this, this motto from the Navy SEALs, which is, you know, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Right? And that's why, and that's why something slow as. Slow is smooth, slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Smooth is fast. Explain that to me.

This is this idea that, you know, if you just operate like, you know, as a, with a very kind of fast paced type of mindset, in the end you don't get the fast result. If you operate with the right mindset, sometimes slowing down to go fast, in the end you get a much better result. Right. And that's a bit of the challenge that I have with the team, because if you're just in that kind of operational mindset of closing racks, 40 racks to fail.

Yeah.

And you, and you don't spend time speaking with the, with the line manager, understanding their business, you know, understanding what the issue is, understanding truly the capability where things are going, you know, what is the market, what is the pipeline of candidates. That's where I see the. Which again, I see a lot of similarities to the generalist world, where a generalist can also be in the same thing. It's very common for a journalist to just be in the flow of, you know, going to work day, feeling this, opening that, opening a position, you know, responding to people. There's so much stuff that is very easy for you to get distracted. Right. So that's why in order for you to build that capability, becoming a talent partner, a true talent partner, one of the things that we need to do for sure is free up capacity through things like automation, you know, through things like optimizations of process. Because if they are just every day just kind of completely Overwhelmed by tasks, then you cannot be a partner.

Agreed. I think there's two things that I see. You got to have the time to be a talent advisor and then you have to have the skills and capability to be a talent advisor. So walk me through. What are you doing to free up time and what are you doing to build skills and capability?

So let's start with the capability, I think without doing too much promotion here, but I think the support that you are providing is helping a lot because our North America team already takes advantage of social talent, but we're now rolling out to the rest of the team and we intend to do more. But build those capabilities and have this constant kind of learning mentality is very important. And on the capacity side, the most important thing is, is really identifying the areas where the recruiters are spending a lot of time. And we can either automate, for example, looking into some AI options for high volume roles, but also simple things like today we have in smart recruiter enabled interview scheduling. No one uses it for whatever reason because, you know, for some random reasons, like, for example, you know, like I cannot block a slot in the calendar and then the interface, you know, you, you start blaming the technology instead of finding a solution. So let's find a solution that free ups, frees up time. You know, like we did a bit of an exercise to identify where were some of the gaps from a process perspective. And we identify from a kind of a six sigma point of view that there was a lot of wait in our process. Just wait for things. You wait for the line manager, you wait for this, you wait for someone to book us some. So all of these weights from a process improvement perspective is also something that we're trying to change by, for example, concentrating activities in a group of people that only manage that activity and can find more synergies. And that's why, again, moving to the centers, there's an element of cost, of course, but there's also this very important element around process efficiency. Because when you create that center of expertise around some specific task, you get things done much faster than if every talent partner around the world has that exact same task.

Ellis, who is your boss?

My boss is Arman. He is the head of talent and culture.

So if I'm Arman, I'm coming to you and I'm saying every three months I want to know, how's it going?

Yeah.

How are you thinking about measuring, if you can, the fact that you were building a capability to be talent partners, how would you measure that and prove to your boss to the business that we are getting this capability.

How do you think about from a capability perspective? I think in the end of the day, what I would like to do, and it's not something we'll do this year because there's too much going on, but I would like to implement some type of NPS approach because today we have a satisfaction type of survey. And. But for me, you know, especially as being a business partner, I've learned a lot the importance of nps, because NPS shows you that is, you know, it's not about that transactional satisfaction, but when you really identify, okay, what are, who are the detractors and who are the promoters here? Because we, we cannot underestimate, you know, from a business partner perspective. I learned so much from the detractors, right? As a business partner, one of the things that I love the most and gave me most satisfaction was when I was able to transform someone from a detractor to a promoter. You know, someone that gave me a score of two one year, the next year gave me a nine. And that for me is, is. Is probably the most logic way, let's just say for us to start assessing, because I'm pretty sure I have not done the baseline yet. But, you know, even though I look into the satisfaction by from a transactional perspective is fairly high, if I would implement an NPS now, I'm pretty sure that it would be quite low because I suspect that the great majority of our hiring managers would rate our TA team as a seven, as a six. You know, and that's why I like the nps, because you really identify the difference between where you're truly delighting the customers versus where you're just, you know, doing a job.

I can recommend that. Nobody's in the room today but Tom from Accenture we've had on the podcast before brought in what I thought was one of the better ways of measuring this process. And I learned a lot of lessons from Tom around NPS or hiring manager, which was looking at not just an MPS over because some people have an MPS or hiring manager, and you rate the recruiter, which kind of gives you nothing because do you like the recruiter score, which doesn't really help as opposed to defining. And Tom and Accenture's benchmarks were four or five key questions which are around how we measure, measured, that the recruiter is doing the things of a talent business partner. For example, do they recommend a structured interview process? Do they bring talent insights? Do they help shape, shape, shape the your need? Do they give you, you know the correct comp and bends information and support you on that. So it's very tangible things and that's what they rated. And we're able to see then across the, across the board to see are, are our recruiters doing the things that a talent advisor should do as opposed to are they popular? Because often as you, as you probably experience pop, sometimes recruiters who aren't popular are doing a brilliant job because they're pushing hiring managers. They're being. Being a partner doesn't always mean being your best friend.

Absolutely.

It might mean challenging that hiring manager, which might not make you popular, but you're doing your job really well. I'm going to bring to a close in a couple of minutes. I'm very conscious of your time, Elias, but what advice would you have from your broader HR experience and the particular transformation at the moment to any other talent leader who's listening to this podcast, who's going through a similar transformation or about to start this transformation, do you have four or five key lessons learned, do's and don'ts from the mistakes or the positive things you've done in the past that you could share with us?

Sure. Well, I think if you're doing a similar transformation, one of the first things that I did with the team is they saw themselves before as a community because they were, they operated as a community. And you know, one simple mindset shift that we're doing is no, you're not a community anymore, you are a team. Because one of the challenges that I had, and I think some people might have as well, was that this topic of adoption and adoption is something that makes sense when you are a community, not when you are a team. Right. But sometimes, and I don't know if it's clear, but like when you are a community, you are basically kind of aligned to a certain need, which is, for example, your direct manager who is in the country, HR head or whatever. And you are part of this community of ta. So you have to be kind of, you know, aligning to both. But in the end of the day, your line manager is your boss. So then you operate it as a community. But when you bring everyone together, several members of the team keeps that mindset of community and say, well, but this doesn't work in our country, or this doesn't work here, it doesn't work work there. And it's a big shift in mindset, you know, to really have everyone think and act as a group and then because that's when you can allow things to happen. Like you mentioned you know, be able to redeploy resources. Because before everyone was like, no, this is my job. You know, I work for North America. Right. I work for sourcing North America or Europe or whatever. So that's. I think it's an important one. The other one, I think, on the partnering, and this is more from a business partner in general, is that something that I've learned is this great book called Influencing Without Authority. And I cannot remember the author now, but in that book, they talk about how influence is a currency. And as a currency, in order for you to withdraw that currency, you first need to deposit. So I think that's one tip that I learned as well, which is, if you're doing a transformation like this, or even if you just want to be a business partner, how much are you depositing into that relationship? So you're building that trust. You're doing what needs to be done, you're engaging, you're spending the time with the manager and everything, so that when you have to push back, when you have to challenge, then you have the currency accumulated to withdraw. Right. I think that's a very important one as well. And then I think from a TA perspective, again, this piece that I spoke about the people, process, data and technology, something else that not only in ta, but even in broader HR and other areas of operations, I've learned that it's a very important one because it's very common for you to put technology, for example, first. And then you develop your process around an ATS or, or a system or. And then, you know, you then realize that your people are not then ready for this, and then your data doesn't feed into this. So, you know, in the end of the day, I think have the right people, develop the right process, make sure that the data is the data that should, that should be there and, and meets the requirements. And then whatever tool, or in the case of, of ta, whatever ATS fits there. Because I, as I mentioned before, I don't think I ever met anyone that says, wow, I'm super happy with my ATS and I cannot find anything else. You know, I wouldn't change it for anything in the world. Right.

So I'm yet to meet them.

Yeah, exactly. So. So, you know, it's. Is it. Is it the best thing to keep pursuing that person, that perfect ats, or just focus on your people, your process, and your data and work with whatever ETS is more feasible for you?

I love those three pieces of advice. Looking from community instead of community, making a team. Second of all, the concept of currency and you've got to earn the currency before you can take it away in terms of that transaction as a business partner, which is wonderful. And the third piece being those four areas, the people, the processes, the data, and then the tech comes last. I love that order. Three great learnings to hopefully share with anyone listening. If anyone wants to reach out, reach out to you to specifically ask you about how you did things, what you're doing, if they're inspired by this conversation. LinkedIn a good way to come. LinkedIn.

Yeah, I think LinkedIn is the easiest one. Yes.

Fantastic. And I can attest to Elise being a very open, supportive and helpful person who will give you good advice and doing a wonderful job. Alis, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. Pleasure to have you here and thank you for joining us and listening today.

Thank you.

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