36 - EP36 w/ Jones: An OG Internet Disciple, Hacking for Fun and Profit, AI and the Matrix + Internet Life Lessons for Success

Uh, what'd you have for dinner?

Um, I— so yeah, good question. I went to— I'm trying to remember what it was called. It was a kum cucumber salad. Oh yeah, I don't know, it was an Indian place. It was like pretty much, um, it's kind of like dinner.

I had a—

it was pretty much just your typical salad of lettuce, tomatoes, you know, cucumber, onion, but with some like vinaigrette on it, some lemon, and then these Indian spices. It's kind of like a spicy salad. It was the first time I've experienced that and it was nice. I like it. I recommend it.

Having a light dinner is a really good feeling. Like, I know with, with me, I have to eat a lot, you know, if I wanted to, you know, put on weight or whatever. But it does feel better having a light dinner going to bed, so I recommend people do it every now and then.

Yeah, especially it is so hot outside, so having like a nice refreshing light dinner, um, and a refreshing drink is It's something, something.

That's nice. And, you know, was it one of those like Indian vegetarian places that are quite spiritual, or was it just an Indian place?

It's just an Indian place. They serve amazing food, but I mean, I don't think it's spiritual. They got like a big projector screen, like, bumping like Indian music all the time. And yeah, they got good—

not—

they got good food though, so I'm not knocking them, but it's not like any spiritual place by any means. Yeah, yeah, it's a—

it's like a—

it's like a fancy Indian restaurant, I would say.

Yeah. Um, I wanted to— first of all, welcome to Soulcast. Thank you for joining me.

Uh, Joe, thank you.

Uh, as he's known, one of the most unique thinkers I've ever come across online, and someone that— yeah, so unique that your voice and the way you look at the world is just so creative and interesting. And that's why I kind of— I wanted to bring you on here just to talk about that, talk about your upbringing, which I know has been crazy. Well, not necessarily upbringing, but your, you know, your situation a few years ago. Uh, you can tell it better than me, but you mentioned recently the kind of journey it's been since you were homeless, correct?

No, I wasn't homeless, but, um, I mean, I might as well have been. I just was never home. I was just like crouch— uh, couch surfing, if you will. Yeah. Um, and doing a lot of bad stuff.

So yeah. Yeah, well, obviously you don't have to talk about, uh, what you don't want to, uh, but I do want to just kind of ask your experience in terms of maybe just the— whatever you want to share, but the great ideals of how you came out of that situation. You know, what were the kind of things that happened to you that changed that mind state? As we know, you know, you have to change your mind before you can change your external circumstances. Uh, if you could just talk about that and kind of the path to where you are now, which I know is a radically different situation?

Yeah, yeah, no, so good question there. Um, I'm trying to think where to start there. So I mean, I'd say even at like starting even as like a young child there, um, I definitely had some issues there, and I of course became a kind of a troubled youth. Um, and Yeah, I'm trying to figure out— sorry, we're trying to figure out where to start. So even as— I'd probably start like even kind of like an early teenager. Um, in my circumstance, I was kind of— I could do whatever I wanted to do and no one could kind of say anything about it, which sounds really cool but it's really a bad idea for a good— a young, a young child to kind of just do whatever they want to do. Um, so I mean, I experienced a lot of things as a young age. I grew up kind of fast because of that, but I also had to learn a lot of hard life lessons really quick at the same time. Um, well, it took a little bit, but yeah, we got there. Um, I'd say really where a lot of it's— a lot of it started was, um, just a mix of, you know, I'd be like 12, 13 years old. Um, I mean, most kids would be, you know, hang out with the friends, go home, go to school the next day, and I would just, um I disappear for a couple of days and come home when I wanted. So it's kind of a mix of being a bad kid in real life and just doing really dumb stuff that were bad ideas, um, and then mixing into— I take breaks of that and then I'd go to online. Um, I spent a lot of time on chat rooms, you know, 4chan, just like stuff like that where I was just balancing being a degenerate online and being a degenerate in person and just living that same kind of feel in, in both worlds. And that was kind of fun part, to be honest. Like, I mean, I think if anyone spends any time online, it's, um, a decent amount of time online, is everyone knows that you can be a different person online than you are in person. And I mean, and that was kind of fun for me.

Um, the OG Anonymous days, right, before everyone had a user profile.

Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm older than a lot of people, like say like Lambros there, but yeah, I was on 4chan when I was like 12 years old, um, and of course there's a lot of stuff you see on there. Yeah, um, but it was fun though. It was fun. It was a lot of stuff. I mean, I guess to step up— to step back a little bit, there was a— I went to Christian school like my entire life, right, as a kid, um, and so then you know, some life circumstances happened and then some things changed. And then I got introduced to public school and I learned, I was kind of like where we went from very strict, you know, church on Wednesdays, you know, at school, you know, Saturdays, Sundays, and you know, this is how it is, to public school. And it was a pretty rough public school to where there's no rules and these kids just did whatever they wanted. And there was a lot of bad stuff going on. And it was a little bit of a shock for me but it also— I liked it. I was very intrigued by it. I was like, this is, this is really awesome. Um, this is a big change. It went from like a ton of rules to no rules very fast. Um, and that's kind of— I'd say I've already kind of been on the internet. I've been on the internet, um, since I was a small child there on chat rooms, but just kind of, you know, LARPing and just kind of talking in chat rooms and getting nervous and leaving. Um, but I'd say kind of, kind of around the kind of around like the middle school age where I started to be around these people where there's no rules and, you know, I guess some kind of bad stuff was happening is when I, you know, I was more brave online, I guess, really. And I was kind of getting more involved in, you know, these, these different type of aspects, um, which was— I mean, it was fun. I mean, it was fun.

I think it was back then, right?

Oh, it was though. It was definitely the Wild West on the internet back then. Um, and it was also at that age, you know, you're like, you know, 13, you're like 12 to 14, and especially I could kind of do whatever I wanted. It was the Wild West online, and it was the Wild West in real life. So it was— I felt like I could do whatever. I mean, I, I could do whatever I want at that time. Yeah, I mean, to some extent, but what I couldn't do in person, I could do online. So it became this thing where it's like I could do whatever I want, basically.

But a very dangerous place to be in as a young male.

A young male, like, no, you know, role model to look up to. I'm just going out there and seeing what trouble I could get in, what boundaries I could push, and what happens, right? I'm just testing the waters, and nothing's pushing back, so I'm just pushing more is really what's happening. Yeah, so, so then, um, I'd say that's when the online became like much more serious. I started spending a lot much more time online. I'd have my breaks, um, you know, where I live, you know, it's, it's very cold winters and it's nice summers. So, um, you know, wintertime when it starts getting not so nice and warm outside, I'd hibernate online. And then, yeah, it would be nice outside and I'd go back to being a real person. And that was kind of the cycle for a very, very, very long time.

Um, and so like, we're meant to, I think, chill out a bit more in winter. I've been reading into how, you know, seasons and how sleep's tied to sun. Like, we are naturally just ebb and flow of like the yearly cycle. We've adapted that as humans. And in seasons, uh, winter, you just have naturally less energy, you need more food. Same, and the opposite is true for some. Yep.

Yeah, and that's one thing where, I mean, and kind of like, as I've got older, I've been kind of more aware of, you know, what attributed to that. And I've realized that, you know, the weather and the seasons are a big role in how I was as, you know, a child, and even how I am today. It still kind of affects me a little bit. It's just—

affects everyone.

Yeah, when it's, when it's pitch black at 5 o'clock and you've been working all day, you know, and you never see the sun, it's cold, you know, it's— it could lead to Yeah, I mean, it affects—

some people don't see the sun and it's fucking sunny all day outside. That's where we're at now in this society, right?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I, I get that. I've, I mean, I've, I've been there too. There was times when I was a teenager where I didn't see the sun for months because I slept when it went down. Yeah, I mean, I slept when it came up and I, you know, woke up when it went down. And again, that was another thing where I was like, man, this is so bad for me. Yeah, um, it took learning the lesson before I realized, you know, right, what's going on here. But, um, yeah, that's something as I got older. Um, you know, I mean, those are, those are things that people I've always heard say, um, but things I've also always brushed off. I was like, yeah, whatever, they're old, they don't know what they're talking about. Um, but typically they know what they're talking about. Yeah, it's like the older I get— yeah, but as I got older, I was like, they were right about everything, everything they said. They were like, you are who you hang out with.

And yeah, all those clichés and things you hear, ah, that's just Dad, let's sit down and talk. Nope.

Yeah, I'm not listening. No, they're, they're always right. They're always right. I'm just like, man, now I say the same things. I know other kids are like, yeah, whatever. I'm like, all right. Yeah, um, yeah, you give advice and you're like, hmm, would I have listened to myself at that age though? Definitely not at all. No, not at all. Um, but that's why I respect the people that do. I mean, there's some people that, you know, some younger kids where I'm like, hey, here's some advice I'm just throwing it out there just because it feels nice. I feel like I should say it. But the people that do pick up on it, it feels nice just knowing that, all right, this person's got a good future ahead of them, that they're, you know, they're this age and they're listening. They're gonna do pretty good. But yeah, so I'd say kind of like 13, 12, 13, I started spending a lot more time online where even when it was nice outside, I didn't wanna go outside. I just wanna be on a computer. Um, and I mean, I think looking back on it, um, I mean, I think like obviously like there were some mental things involved with that. Like when you're, when you're cooped up in a dark room all day every day, like you're not, you're not, you're not extremely happy, right? So, um, you know, I'm aware of that. I'm, you know, looking back I'm like, all right, this makes a lot of sense. Um, but yeah, so I just started I don't know, I got— so this kind of saves my age there, but so I got Xbox Live the first day it came out, um, literally the first day it came out on the original Xbox, right? And that's kind of when everything changed.

That is, uh, one of the first like major online gaming platforms.

Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, there was some other stuff before that that were kind of big, but that's when like it was mainstream where there's a lot of people online. Because before that you had kind of like that extremely nerdy people online. This was kind of the breakthrough where, I mean, if you were still spending standing all day on a computer, you're pretty nerdy. Um, but this is someone like, it kind of broke through to another level of mainstream. And yeah, I mean, honestly, I just got— I was just fascinated with playing with people online and hearing them talk. At first I was too scared to even hop on the microphone because, you know, I'm like, I sound like a girl, I'm a little kid. Um, so I'm just like living the life, it's cool, you know. Mom steps in, I'm like, oh, I'm not doing anything. But, um, it was cool. But then it eventually got to a point where, again, I'm testing the waters. I feel like a lot of young kids do that. They— I mean, it's natural kids. They want to push the boundaries and see where the boundary's at. Yeah. So I started, I started doing that online where, you know, no one could really correct me, to be honest. Um, so I was just like, you know, I'd be that little tiny kid with a squeaky voice in game lobbies just talking, talking tons of shit, talking so much shit. And how much fun was it though? It was, it was like And that's what's kind of weird. People like talk about like, oh, the old days, and like, you know, back when I was a kid. My favorite moments of my entire life are just being a little shithead kid on the internet. Like, yeah, it was the best time ever. Like, you felt like— I don't know, I'm not—

it was the best explanation, right?

Because it would— yeah, so, you know, it's so new. Like, it's whenever you hop into a brand new game. Yeah, there's— you hop into a brand new game, you're playing like Skyrim for the first time, you're like, oh my gosh, there's all this stuff I got I gotta figure it out, what's going on. That's what it felt like. I'm like, there's this whole new world and I'm exploring it and I'm 12, you know?

Yeah, everything seems like a fucking movie, you know? Your imagination runs so wild, your senses are so pure that everything— by looking back on the graphics of old games, I'm like, that is not what it was in my head looking at it now, right?

Yeah, like I remember, I remember I replayed 007, came on Steam, and I was like, man, like I thought this was very realistic. Yeah, the interesting part that kind of like reflecting back on it there is that it was— I could do and be whatever I wanted, which was very like intriguing to me as well. But also, of course, with online, there's that sense of this isn't tied to me. I could say anything in the world. I could do anything I want. And it's not going to come back on me, right? So that was— I mean, again, as like this 12-year-old kid just like being a little shithead pushing buttons, like, that was—

it was a little—

it's a kind of a power thing. It's like I could do anything I want. Um, so then again, I just started, you know, I was talking shit at games. And then when I first started getting kind of more heavy into computers, I was in like, you know, I was like 12 years old when I joined like this Xbox, like, you know, I started getting to like clans, game clans, right? And then from game clans, it turns into, all right, well, we're better than you, um, right? Just kind of natural rivalries. Yeah, online little tribes. It really was— it was— it's like if you were part of this group, you came across them, like, you're in that group, and then there's other groups, and then you start battling. And it starts off as just like you're battling of who's better at this game. But what's very interesting, and this could Continue. This never ends. But when you start getting into that tribal mindset online, there's this who's the baddest, and then it starts extending outside of games and starts kind of taking up the level. And then it turns into who can really just do the worst thing possible and who could take it to the highest level. And they are the ones who are the king on the block there. Um, And so that's kind of why I started with— well, not just with games, and that's, that's where it starts. Yeah, yeah, it's— well, yeah, it literally is like, like online gangbanging, and it starts off with like 12-year-old kids. And like, I've seen a lot of people, I've seen a lot of people like where I kind of ended up at come from that. They come from games and then they're, you know, they're clicking up with people, and it's, you know, it makes sense, you're playing games with your friends, but then you start talking shit to people and then it turns into like, you know, this, this whole thing. Um, so yeah, I started off there and it's just, um, you know, talking shit on the internet. And then it turns into, you know, like, well, I hacked your clan website, what are you gonna do about it? To people are now— people have now found out where you live and they're gonna order a bunch of pizzas to your house and call your mom. And like, you know, it kind of starts escalating these levels, right? Yeah. Um, and then it turns into like, you know, like some serious issues. Um, it's like, all right, well, you, you ordered pizza to my house and you called my mom, so I'm gonna call your mom's boss and make up this lie and get her fired. And then it starts getting like very exaggerated, and then you're like, you're, you're really messing with people's lives. But you're still a young kid and you still don't really understand the world, and you also have that disconnect of what's real life and what's not real life, you know. Um, So yeah, I'd say that whole Xbox Live changed my life. Yeah. Just 'cause I kind of got stuck in that rabbit hole a bit. I think that actually changed like my views and how I see a lot of things, which I think there's a lot of bad that comes from that. I think primarily bad comes from that stuff, but there's also some good things as well, which is what I try to, used what I've learned in different ways there. Like, to give like a small example, there's like this thing called like, you know, social engineering, right? Where basically you're just talking to them to do what you want. So when I was a young kid, you know, I wanted to have that Xbox Live. I was addicted, man. So I would call Walmarts, you know, and I'd specifically look for Walmarts in kind of, you know, like poverty-stricken areas. And I sound like a girl. So I'd be like, "Hey, you know, this is Brittany from, you know, Microsoft. We've had like a, we've had a bunch of reporting that these recent Xbox Live game cards that we've sent you have bad codes. We had an issue, you know, at our facility here and there was a bad batch and we think you might have been affected by this. So I need you to go ahead and grab 5 Xbox Live, you know, 60-day game card codes and scratch them off." back when that used to be a thing, scratch off the code, um, and read me those numbers so I could verify if legitimate or not. Um, and they'd give me, they'd give me a bunch of codes. I did that for like games and stuff like that. Like, I want a new game came out, I want this. But yeah, so start off with that. And then, um, yeah, so then I had free Xbox Live. And then also I had a side hustle where I'd sell these to other kids and they give me money. So now I'm making money, right? I've learned I could still kind of get what I want and do what I want. Um, and so, I mean, that was another one where it kind of— it did kind of change my life a little bit because I was like, I could just call someone and tell them to do what I want and they'll do it if I say the right thing. Um, yeah, so I mean, it just— that was the beginning. It's just, it gets like Yeah, that was probably— I was probably like 13 years old when I was doing that, and I was starting to realize, you know, if I say the right things, um, I could get what I want.

That a bit more, like, what do you think are the main triggers?

And do you—

you know, it's manipulation in a way, but is there certain things you look for or see in conversation? Like, what are the commonalities in— you know, if communication is a valuable skill And it's interesting to be able to, you know, it's a form of hypnotism in a way, like taking them on an energetic ride, uh, and saying the right things. And with trial and practice, you can, you know, everyone's a manipulator to, to some level. You say you want to say, right, your boss, you want to, you know, try and get your son to study more, like impress a girl. Yeah, it's a girl, anything. There's a certain mode of communication for all things, and the right situation calls for different tactics. And it's so crazy if you think about the— all the million different ways that you can channel communication in terms of the emotions you can communicate, the combination of emotions. And epic speeches can galvanize 10,000 troops to go win a war. Like, it's, it's really energetic communication as it is, you know, it's not how— it's not what you say, it's how you say it. So what are your thoughts on that distinction and how does that relate to communication in your experience?

Yeah, I mean, I, I completely agree. I mean, I've seen it used to get what you want, to put someone down, to make someone go off the internet. I mean, that's the one thing I learned at a young age is— and like, as I got older, I kind of understood it more as well because I, I know what I was doing to some extent. But, um, you know, speech is extremely powerful. And that's the one thing where I think some— I mean, again, like you said, if you want to say something to your boss, subconsciously, you know, you're going to try and impress them or downplay where you messed up, right? I mean, people kind of naturally understand these things, um, but I think that there's a level, and that's kind of a dangerous one to play with, but once you, you really understand the game and you know what to do, um, it could be really, really be abused, you know. Again, like, you could, you could, you could say things a certain way and you can make people feel good. You could, you know, motivate people. You could tear people down. You could take stuff from them. You know, speech is extremely powerful. And again, it's, it's kind of one of those— it's like a, it's like a power almost, where, you know, you, you— when you're good at it, you could use it for bad if you want to. But it's one of those things where, I mean, it's obviously not a good idea, and it's, it's really terrible. But again, that's where, you know, learning that power at a young age is not— it's not a good thing to do.

Yeah, without the maturity to wield it properly.

Yeah, because you don't know what you're doing and you're just, you're just having fun. And you're, again, when you're a young kid, you're just, you're testing the limits, you know.

Yeah, no real—

and it's online, it's online, it's not real life, you know. Um, so, but again, it's— and that's where it's interesting because that's actually something that's used, uh, very often even nowadays. I think for like, just give an example, right? Um, there was that, that, that Twitter hack that happened, you know, maybe like a year ago or something like that, where a bunch of celebrity accounts were hacked, right? Um, they were tweeting stuff. I think they were actually tweeting to like, send Bitcoin to this address and we'll send you a double, or it was something silly like that. But it was like all these big people, like, I think Elon Musk and Kanye West, all these people were doing it. Um, that was due to social engineering. Someone talked an employee at Twitter into doing what they wanted to get access to what they want. Yeah, that's, um, That's actually, I'd say, most big compromises in security nowadays. I mean, people are weaker than computers are and most infrastructures are. The issue with anyone's company or someone, you know, being compromised is the people that you have that control those tools, because they're, they're, they're weak. You, if you, if you get them at the right time and say the right things, like even I don't know, say someone goes through something really hard and like, you know, they're kind of down about it. They go through like a death or like a breakup, or, you know, like they're kind of, you know, a little bit weakened just because of what's going on, which is very understandable, right? Yeah. Uh, if someone knows what's going on and picks up on that and preys on that, you know, they could become their friend and then kind of slowly talk them into doing stuff and then getting it, you know, and then eventually getting to what they want, which is in that case was, um They have pretty much control of every Twitter account. Um, but again, it just comes down to— which is another interesting topic— is, um, people are weaker than computers are nowadays, at least when it comes to that kind of state. It's— you don't got to worry about really your computer getting hacked.

It's—

you got to worry about what you clicked on, what you were convinced to click on, or what someone else might click on.

It's like that thing, um, you know, Facebook meme pages who'll say, hey, your porn star name is the first street you ever lived on and your childhood pet. And people go, oh, haha, this is my name, fucking Sally Peters or whatever. And then they'll take that information because they have your email and recovery questions that they usually ask you. Hey, what was the first street you lived on? Hey, what was your first pet's name? And then, right, I've got your password, which is probably the same for a lot of your emails and banking accounts. And that's, you know, I think the the biggest source of being hacked or having your data—

Oh yeah, 100%. Well, the other thing is too, is besides the pet name, another common one is what's your mother's maiden name, right? You could find out, if you know someone's email address, you could find out their mother's maiden name and the street they grew up on just from a Google search.

Yeah, probably posted it on Facebook for you.

Yeah, honestly, yes. Like I've seen that where people Well, again, they're like, what's your mother's maiden name? And then they have them added as a friend on Facebook, and like their middle name is the maiden name, you know? Yeah. Um, and it's just— yeah, I mean, people are though— that's— I mean, that's where it gets a little crazy. It's that people are the weakest link right now.

Um, and what do you think is the, um, big hacks going on that's shutting down the meat processing plants or the, uh, the oil pipeline?

Yeah, I'm not— I, I'm not too sure. I kind of got out of that game like quite some time ago because it's not a good game to be in. But my assumption is that— I mean, kind of same thing. I mean, I could tell you for a fact that most these big company, like old money type organizations— I mean, even the government, right? Yeah. Um, they're using like like these extremely old softwares, and like they're using like Windows 98 or XP and like to power these things. And, um, they just don't care about that stuff. I mean, but also it makes sense as they go into a board meeting and it's just a bunch of old guys like, hey, we gotta spend a bunch of money to increase this Windows version to this one. They're gonna be like, no, I don't care. Yeah, um, I want profits. So yeah. So I think, I think part of it is, um, it's just older people don't understand this, um, and they're probably not going to. Um, I mean, most even younger people don't understand it, but it's, um, it's really hard to convince a conglomerate corporation. I mean, nowadays it's probably easier, um, but I mean, I bet like that stuff was using very old systems. Um, I mean, the people that were operating it like don't know what they're doing. They're just doing their job. And they're probably, you know, not young guys either, or familiar with this type of stuff. So, I mean, this stuff will keep going on as long as people can make money from it, they're going to do it. Um, the only thing that really— I haven't followed up on that article, but I did remember that the US government said that they retrieved the Bitcoin back. Um, that really kind of scared me because How is that possible unless they knew who it was and they told them to send it back, or they got access to their computer? Yeah, which, um, I wouldn't expect the government to be that smart to be able to do that. Um, so, right, like, yeah, yeah, you can—

what was the other thing about the Bitcoin security? I think it was that, that point was that, yeah, we've recovered the Bitcoin and You know, everyone was like, oh, you're not meant to be able to do that. Like, how did they track?

Right. And that's when I saw that, I was like, oh geez. Well, well, I mean, I guess here's kind of another thing where, um, I mean, everything is solved by— it's like if you're trying to crack a password, right? If I say I hacked this website but the database has encrypted all these passwords in a certain encryption, like, you could, you could see what that encryption is and you could try to crack that password. So you use like a bunch of like, you know, graphics cards, for examples, because they have with the most computational power. Yeah. And so you could crack them faster using that. So the, the real thing that scares me about crypto, to be honest, is that as technology progresses, which happens very fast, um, computational power also increases very fast as well. And so it really is— I mean, I don't know if it's 5 years from now, 10 years from now, I'm sure there's people that know the answers to this, but, um, it's a matter of time until I mean, any password could be cracked instantly, including your private keys for your wallets. Um, there will be a day, there will be a day where someone is going to load a list of every single wallet and crack the private keys for them and take all those Bitcoins that people lost access to because they have the computational power to do so. Um, I mean, it's going to happen one day. There's no one, anything to do about it. It's just that's how it works. Um, So that's what kind of scared me when I saw that article was, all right, what kind of computational power do you have going on here? Um, it's either that or it was kind of staged, it was fake. I highly doubt that they knew this person, they convinced them to send the Bitcoin back, or they caught them. You know, I, I really doubt that whole scenario where we got them, we sent the Bitcoin back to us. You know, um, I figured the only options are it's either they got some secret way of cracking stuff, which I'd still kind of— probably not, but still enough to make me nervous. Or it was fake, um, or they're just lying and saying—

want to seem— appear cool, or like—

yeah, which— who would— who would be shocked that the US government lied? So yeah, exactly, any government. Yeah, like, oh yeah, we got that money back, uh, don't worry about it, didn't just lose— don't ask how. Yeah, we're not going to tell you, but it's bad. Secret, top secret, right? I mean, I'm sure someone just— they sent $5 million in Bitcoins back. Yeah, they just lied about it or something. But I mean, that was a little, a little nerve-wracking there.

Um, do you know much about AI or consider the whole possibility of all of this technology potential that we're creating as humans kind of unconsciously? Really, we're just being driven by innovation, whether that's profit or, you know, the larger energetic whole is kind of just marching towards something, but we don't know what. No one's conscious of what we're developing towards. And every time— yeah, more computational power, like you said, that is closer to the exponential point where it all just goes and the AI gets enough power to just instantly solve things. And it's very interesting as to what—

yeah, so I mean, I'm Yeah, that is an interest of mine. Um, I feel like it's at some level— and I don't know if this is natural or I don't really understand why— but there is this feeling of we are creating our own god at some level. If, you know, if like we are just— yeah, there's just this drive where we, we are like creating this higher being and is, you know quite literally what we're doing. Um, but I don't know, I'm also, to be honest, I'm, I am not convinced that this is like the real reality, but I also do understand this is the only reality that we have, so we have no choice to accept it. So like, I'm not gonna like, you know, freak out, go crazy about it, but I mean, it is what it is. But I mean, it's just we could— it wouldn't take long for us to create a reality. And, you know, I, I kind of have these talks with some close friends there, and I don't know, The Matrix really to me just hits a little too close to home there. Um, and it really— I mean, again, like, there's— mathematically, we are probably— this is probably a simulation. I mean, there's a very good chance of that mathematically. Um, the other interesting thing too that I like as well, besides, you know, like With space, for example, is, you know, space is, at least when I was in school, you know, space is supposedly infinite, right? Google got their name from what is, what was at the time considered the largest number that could ever exist, a googolplex. And so just like if you have 3 pairs of pants and, you know, 4 shirts, there's only so many ways that you could arrange those until you start having duplicates, right? Well, I mean, I'm probably not using the right terms for this. I'm not, you know, But, um, yeah, when it comes down to, uh, like the atoms or the molecules and, you know, all that stuff, there's only so many ways that you could rearrange them before you get duplicates, is at a high level there.

Um, factorial, right?

Yeah. So mathematically, if you were to go a googolplex across the universe, which supposedly infinite, um, you would come into exact copies of everything because there's only so many ways they could, they could be created. I mean, be adjusted. So if you want to, if you want to Googleplex across the universe, mathematically you would come into exact copies of everything you know and see, because there's only so many ways that all these molecules and everything could be arranged to make something up. You start running out of unique, and you start creating duplicates of what has already been created, um, just because that number is so large.

Um, okay. I mean, so even down to like, it represents is how many, like, bigger than—

it's not what— it's not what it represents, but at the time— now there's larger numbers, but at the time, um, googolplex was the largest number that anyone could possibly conceive. Um, and just out one though, right? And that's kind of— I mean, I'm not going to argue with that. That's kind of my thought process. She was like, well, it's out of zero to that, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um, but, but I don't know, I Yeah, effectively at the time it was like, it was like to the power, to the power, to the power, to the power, to the power. Like, it was just an extremely large number, right? Um, but yeah, I mean, yeah, mathematically, you just, you, you run out of, uh, yeah, you'd run out of options. You'd hit the same exact thing, like, even down to the chemical construct of your brain, um, because there's only so many ways that could be arranged. So you would, you'd, if you're traveling across the universe with a duplex across, you'd find, you know, ones that are very close, but eventually you'd hit exact Um, yeah, the exact copy of, you know, it maybe be us right now talking, having this conversation, a googolplex across the universe. Yeah. Um, so I mean, I think the other thing that's kind of with the— this is kind of— this is gonna be an odd take, right? And I'm not like super invested in this, but it's just kind of what I feel like is like— so have you seen The Matrix? Yeah, so there's the Agent Smith, right? The Agent Smith kind of like takes someone's body over and it's like, you know, goes to go after wherever they're going after. So the one thing that I've kind of realized— microdosing might have been involved or not— but so the one thing I kind of realized is that, um, every time that I've had an extremely good idea— well, what I felt like was a good idea, um, and other people have told me the same story as well— but you have a good idea and you're like, man, I really believe in this, and then all these people tell oh no, not gonna happen, or no, that's a bad idea, and they try to put you down, right? Or they just— they're not buying it. Yeah. Um, every time it's a really good idea is the time I get the most resistance, right? And it feels like, in a way, Agent Smith is like, nope, nope, uh-uh, you're not doing that. And so exactly, dude, the more time Agent Smith shows up in my life, it's like, no, don't do that, terrible idea. I'm like, I'm doing it. No, I'm doing it.

I'm gonna break out Matrix, you fuck.

But literally, like, I feel like— I mean, I have, you know, uh, I have a friend where we kind of like, we, we dabbled some stuff and like, it was really about breaking out of the Matrix. Because again, it's especially nowadays with everything that's going on and social media and all these algorithms. I mean, like, you're— the algorithms are made to make you keep looking, you know. Um, and it— and then everyone just agrees to whatever they saw on the algorithm. It just feels so fake. Yeah. And so it, it feels like you are in the Matrix. And, um, yeah, I mean, I mean, to this day I still feel like when, when someone's telling me no, I can't do this, and I believe in it, I'm like, all right, Agent Smith. Like, I've actually called people, but I'm like, all right, Agent Smith is, you know, here. Yeah. Um, I'm like, I gotta do it, you know. It's trying to stop me.

Good man. I'm gonna do strategy. Yeah. And anything— I mean, your mental, uh, an Agent Smith, literally.

It's— yeah. And it's just, um, I mean, you're— there's probably times you're gonna have bad ideas, which, whatever, you're gonna learn from and grow from them, right? But I mean, there's— I've talked to a lot of people, and a lot of people have said, like, you know, some of the best ideas I've had that worked out for me well in the long run, that were very hard and they weren't easy. Yeah, everyone told me I couldn't do it. Um, and to me, it's just like, you know, Agent Smith is coming out saying, no, don't do this. You keep, keep, you know, keep typing away and doing what you're told. Don't break out of it.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's, uh, it really is like, okay, even if there isn't a simulation, right, treat it like a simulation because it responds. It's all about mental models, right? You want to take the model that is going to serve you the best in whatever this situation is. It doesn't matter, but what inputs are going to get the best outputs? Is your life quality going to be the best if you believe this, and then in another situation you believe that? And for all you know, all the reasonings and whatever, if you treat it like a simulation, that at least for me, your beliefs program the reality that comes out. Basically, uh, you know, it's— you call it perspective, call it spiritual awareness, or whatever. It's like understanding these key principles of the universe, how you relate to it in this 3D realm. But The Matrix is such a good way to put— and you could go into like, is the Matrix predictive programming and we're all in fucking pods and it's, you know, the way that—

yeah, it can get real deep, right? Yeah, whatever, which would make sense. But yeah, so there's a lot to it.

It would, it would. And maybe we'll get there one day, and maybe we're in it now, but you know, you got to figure out what works best for you. And yeah, it's the beauty of simulation so far. Avoiding the Agent Smiths of other people that, like you said, tear down some of your ideas, that whether their insecurities are rising up so they attack it, or they're jealous that you thought of that and they want to stop you doing it, or they genuinely like just think it's a bad idea. All your benefits and growth and everything come from those intuitive ideas which no one else understands. You know, that's how innovation is ever done. And, and people are persecuted. Yeah, thinking of the different thing than the norm. But that starts with one person, one idea that comes from the ether, and then the whole population progresses because of it, right?

I mean, again, like, if it's a crazy idea and it works, then it can be a game changer, and that's where innovation really happens. The other thing too, the simulation, is it's kind of a sensitive subject with some people because, you know, there's some kind of you know, there's religious beliefs that kind of counter that. And I mean, I think the main point though is that with the whole kind of simulation, kind of Matrix type thing there, is that it's still that same idea of, all right, there's people that are just kind of going with the flow and doing what they're supposed to, and there's other people that are aware and they're saying, I'm not following this path, you know, I'm going to figure out and do this on my own. Um, because again, it I mean, it really feels like in life there's observers and there's people that are doing it, you know. Um, and so again, for me, the Matrix kind of theory, you know, kind of dabbling with that is, is my take with it. I'm like, I'm like, there's people that are just watching the Kardashians doing all this normal type, you know, being consumers. Like, I'm wearing my Nike shirt and I'm watching Disney Plus at night. They're just doing their stuff. Um, and there's other people that are like, I'm breaking out the Matrix and I don't like Agent Smith. So it's kind of, again, it's, it's— I'm taking control of my reality. Is— I, I really view it as, um, there— I— whether it's in reality or not, you know, I have to accept it as it is. I got no choice in this. Um, but I do believe I can make it my own, and I don't have to do the normal route, you know?

Yeah.

Which I think, I think is a, is a very powerful thing. Like, if you honestly believe that— I mean, I think a lot of people kind of like, oh, it's really cool, but, you know, if you really believe that you could take control of everything around you in your reality, um, and you do something about it, I think you're gonna live a pretty good life.

Yeah, 100%. It's the only option once you realize like everyone has the lives they have because the things they do each day. And you can do the things each day that get you towards an amazing place and progress, or or just do the same shit, which is getting you nowhere. So it's about awareness. And, um, I guess you learn that through life, hopefully, and you have people that can tell that to you. And but the other thing is, like, if you never get told that, like, if you're never shown that by other people— and this is what I love about you, is like, you, you tell me about the, the times that you've been able to really get through to a younger guy who's, you know, hungry and wants work for you or something. And those stories where you can positively impact someone else's life, like you said, you can now know that, okay, this person is going to have a better life because of what I was able to teach them and they've taken on board. And that's a great thing. And that's what ideally I'm— I want to do with podcasts and, um, you know, exposing minds like yourself to, uh, the general population, which is—

yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I think, I mean, I'm not, I'm not like religious or anything like that, or I mean, I don't, I don't know. I keep my mind very open to a lot of things. Like, I'm not tied down to one thing, but I do think that at some level, I mean, again, kind of what I talked about before is I went through a phase of doing a lot of bad stuff. I really pushed the limits, and then that led to me, like, I was in dark places. You can't do that type of stuff and be like a happy-go-lucky guy living a normal life. And then, um, there's just a lot of bad stuff that comes with that. And I think that for me, I wouldn't change it ever because I mean, I learned a lot from it early, which was good, but also I could relate to people who are in those places and I could see them. And like, I understand, I very much understand what it's like to just really be like, I'm willing to prove myself. I just need a little bit of guidance or a push in the right direction. Like, what do I do? And it's like, I'm willing to work, but I'm just lost. And I personally never, I had to figure it out on my own. No one helped me, which I mean, it's kind of a thing a lot of people say, like, I came up on my own or from nothing. And I think that if you do that, that's very respectful, but I also think that it's something that you shouldn't expect from everybody. And so if you see someone who just needs a little bit of a nudge or like a little bit of guidance and you could give that to them, it, you know, besides the whole thing like, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm changing their life thing, it's more of like I'm doing for them what I wish someone did for me. And that by itself just feels good, you know. Yeah. Um, so again, it's like, I, I mean, again, I mean, the kind of ladies— so like when I was, when I was young, I would, I only hung out with like bad kids because I respected them more than kids that like were rich and had a good life. Because when they, they wouldn't complain about stuff. When they did, like, it was some very serious problems. Like, I respected that a lot. Like, I really like that aspect where it's like, I mean, some kids crying about, I didn't get this for Christmas, and some kids, you know, not crying but like, yeah, I had to sleep in the park tonight because, you know, my house was raided, you know, for drugs, my parents went to jail. I just kind of blew it off like it's nothing. I had a whole lot more respect for those kids because, yeah, they were living it. They, you know, they were going through it. And that's who I wanted to be around, was those people, because because they knew what life was. Yeah. Um, but same thing when I'm like, you know, hiring people or, you know, trying to like help people out. It's, you know, I, I just respect people who have been through a lot and are still trying, rather than they just kind of did what they were supposed to do and they're like, I'm looking for a job because I'm supposed to. But if you, if you struggled really hard and you've kept fighting, like, I'll, I'll I'll fight for you and I'll fight with you, you know, because I— that's a— it's not a common trait. So that's the main thing I look at when, honestly, when I hire people. It's, um, I don't— I'd actually prefer someone who didn't go to college. Um, I don't care about anything. All I care about is what do you know now? Do you have the ability to learn? Because I want to give you something that I know you can't do, but are you going to figure it out? And when you mess up, um, you know, what you learn from where you messed up, and I'll, you know, I'll help you out there. That's the only thing I care about is, you know, are you willing to really put the work in and learn from this to, you know, grow yourself but also get to where you want to be?

Yeah, they're probably the key things in terms of a growth mindset that, you know, whatever situation you're in, if you can be honest, learn about your fuck-ups, and you know, take wisdom from that and then also be up to any task that you may come across, even if it's something you haven't done before, because, you know, I'm capable, I'm a strong human, and I'll figure it out. And if you go into everything with that situation, with that mindset, then you're pretty good.

Yeah, really, that mindset is you're gonna make it. I mean, I'll be honest, like, I'd say a good— not as much anymore, but, you know, kind of say even a year or 2 years ago, I'd go into situations all the time where like, I have no idea what I'm doing at all. Probably like, I got this, no problem at all. I'm gonna figure it out. And sometimes I'd have to work like 14 hours straight, multiple days. Like, I'd— but I'm gonna figure it out. I know that I can figure it out. I know I have the ability to, and that I will do it, right? Yeah, easy. Like I mean, I, I dropped out of middle school, I dropped out of high school, I went to college for 6 days and I was like, you know, screw this. Um, I dropped out of high school 3 times, but it's just like I didn't need to because, A, what I wanted to do, which is what I do now, no one's going to teach me in school how to do this. Yeah, but the internet will. So instead of going to school, I was like, I'm going to hang out in chat rooms and internet forums and talk to people that actually are doing what I want to do now. Than learn about, you know, World War II for the 5th year in a row. Like, I mean, so the internet is— yeah, the internet, it's— there's, there's so much. And again, that's where kind of an interesting thing that I've, I've been thinking about lately too is that, I mean, 4chan's big. A lot of people have kind of dabbled in there, whether it's like it's /fit/, it's the technology board, it's /b/, there's like the gun board, the cars board, you know, whatever. Like, there's, there's a lot of people that have been involved in that over time. And it's interesting because a lot of people that have explored, you know, that kind of part of the internet, or, you know, um, I feel like they all are willing to explore ideas that aren't traditional, if that makes sense. Yeah. Um, a lot of stuff comes from there where it's, you know, no one would tell you to do this, um, but there's some solid advice. I mean, there's a ton of not solid advice on there, but there's also some, some, some, some hidden gems on there. And again, you're Yeah, you're— but like, you're— when you're on the fringes of all this stuff and your ability to kind of like filter and learn, you're just going to take some messing up. You can kind of filter and figure out, all right, what's going on and what information is good or bad. Is you can learn a lot of stuff from like just the fringes of the internet or other places where— just go out there and talk to people, figure it out, you know. Don't read a textbook.

Did a lot of reading.

Yeah. For me, honestly, most of the stuff I've learned as a kid, and this is kind of ties into social engineering a little bit, but I say when I was about 14 years old, I started going into these communities where they were actually like, you know, they were making good money, you know, they were doing digital marketing, they were doing good stuff, bad stuff, et cetera. And I would just pretend that I was their age and I did the same thing they did. And I would just like read the forums for a while, kind of listen to how they talked, pick up on the keywords, right?

Yeah.

And then one day create an account and be like, hey, I'm one of you. I'm like you, but I'm also like better than you in some way. That way they would try to impress me and then work with me. So, well, a lot of it, a lot of my learning, to be honest, most of the stuff I've learned was me faking it to making it as a young kid. Yeah. Just going to communities where people did what I wanted to do. Yeah. And I'm like, hey, I'm one of you too. When I just talk like they talked and then they're like, hey, can you do this? Uh, yeah, sure. And I figure out how to do it and then they give me money. I'm like, okay. And then I just keep— can I keep going that way?

That's cool, man. Um, learning through immersion, the same with, uh, languages. It's the best way to learn, really. You got no training wheels or floaties and you just thrown in the water.

Yeah, it's like, you know, baptism by fire. Like, all right, I want to do this. I'm going to be around these people that do this and let's see what happens. And the cool thing is too, since the internet If you end up looking like an idiot, just re-register under a new username and start again, you know, until it works. Yeah, you know, and, you know, maybe the 5th time, the 10th time, eventually someone's like, oh man, you're really smart. And then you keep going, you know. Um, it's easy. I mean, I, I honestly believe that a very vast majority of everything I've learned was either from, you know, messing up, um, in real life or, you know, doing stuff online and from the internet. I've learned everything from the internet, which I think kind of gives me a little bit of a unique mindset because, yeah, I don't know, no one ever taught me anything, but the computer taught me a whole lot of stuff.

Yeah, well, I remember, you know, most of the skills that I have that have enabled me to do Sol Brah stuff was when I was on 4chan, like 15 14, and yep, they would just mention Photoshop and I'd be like, oh, what's that? Yeah, yeah, I'd go torrent the software and then I would play around and be like, well, how do I cut that out and put something else?

YouTube it. Yep.

And then now I use that every single day in terms of my, you know, like design and photos that I do. Sol Brah, and you know, that wasn't at school, that spending time online and just being curious and thinking the whole time like, okay, I just have to— if I press the keys in this certain way or, you know, mouse movements in this particular program, I can get output X. And then from then on, uh, I was able to access it. You know, I liken it to a magic spell. And when you read a new website or learn of a new website that can convert something differently or you know, format something, it's like that's another magic spell that I have. I can put— turn, um, you know, dirt into gold if I, if I put it through this program or want to create this kind of thing. And that is so crazy to me. And that, you know, is it magic?

It feels like it, especially again, it was kind of the same thing for me. Like, I— there was this old website called, uh, YTMND where people would like create GIFs and put like MP3s, and it was popular for a while. And like, that's where I was like I'm gonna Photoshop stuff and do this, or I'd like Photoshop pictures of people, you know, it— embarrassing pictures, or like just Photoshop my head on like funny things or whatever and kind of play, and then the 4chan type of stuff, it was fun. But, um, it— that's the, the beauty of it is like, I don't know, it's— I wish I could go back into those days of being young and on the internet where everything is so new and magical, because it really does feel like a magical world where you're like like, what is going on? And again, you're torrenting stuff. All right, now I get software for free, and now I'm doing Photoshop, and now I'm doing websites, and now people are giving me money. And it's like, you know, it's insane. The, the only, the only thing that I— that's kind of the hard part with that one there is because again, I think there's a lot of value in that. Um, I mean, for me it worked out. I think there was a little bit of— there's a lot of, you know, struggle in it as well, but The hardest thing that I ran into is especially, you know, I had all these skill sets, right? I knew like, you know, I dabbled in like, you know, kind of bad stuff there. I knew kind of like servers, websites, you know, I knew Photoshop. I kind of knew everything, right? Because I grew up online. But it's like when you go to apply for a job, you're like, hey, I know all this stuff. And they're like, how? And you're like, uh, well, um, like you can't really explain, um, how you have that stuff. So The interesting of it is most people I've seen— so to be honest, most people I saw, I, I know that grew up in that kind of same way I did, um, have nothing to their name and, you know, are drug addicts or died, you know, overdosed, or, you know, or it's most the time it doesn't lead to good stuff there, to be honest, because there's a lot of depression. If you're spending a lot of time on a computer, it typically is due to depression or escaping something. And then also drug culture is very big online, and then it's very easy get sucked into that. So I think that's a very big catalyst to watch out for. And I mean, I went through that, but I was okay. But again, even when you get outside the other end, it's like, okay, I know all this stuff, but what do I tell an employer how I know this stuff? Or what can I, how can I prove this? So it really turns a lot of people that come into that into, they have to be an entrepreneur. There's no option. It's either I have to create my own business and figure out a way how to do this. Because no one's gonna hire me.

Yeah.

Um, and it— that's where it becomes interesting. That's where there's a lot of make it. I feel like it's like the becoming a man phase, is that when you grow up on the internet, it's time to make money. It's like, all right, yeah, what are you gonna do, you know?

Um, and you can just—

you have to figure something out. Yeah, you can, but it's like, ah, that's where it gets so weird because I mean, when it— when it— like, so hacking, for example, all these young kids like get drawn into it. I mean, it's a— it's a power trip. You feel cool. I mean, I get all that stuff, but it's kind of cringy at the same time too. Um, I mean, there's ways to do it legitimately, but I mean, most people are doing it in a kind of a cringy way, to be honest. But it's like, that's, you know, the chances of you making anything out of that are extremely low. And if you do make anything out of it and it's illegal, like, you're committing felonies for like a couple thousand dollars, you know? Like, it's, it's just not a good idea. Yeah, uh, at all. Yeah. And then, and then people like to brag about like, oh, I did this. It's like, all right, well, now you got in jail for— you're in prison for self-snitching and you made 2 grand, and now you're never getting a job, you know? Like, yeah, um, so selection though. Yeah, but again, I feel like, I feel like if you want to go the grow up on the internet route, it's— I feel like it's very powerful. You can learn a lot, but got to be smart. It's not as easy as I'm going to do good grades and, you know, take the normal course. Um, you gotta, you gotta be able to realize you're gonna fuck up. You gotta be able to realize when you fuck up and then adapt.

Yeah, that changed from fucking around to creation, taking it more seriously, and, you know, let's say progressing your life in a more positive way.

Yeah, um I'd say there was a couple kind of events to that. There wasn't one main catalyst. I'd say I was like 18, 19, kind of around that. Um, I was ordering tons of drugs on the internet because, you know, Silk Road existed. That's when I first started buying Bitcoin, when it was $2 each. I was buying a ton of drugs. Yeah. Um, and it was a— yeah, it was awesome. I was living the life. Um, I had no responsibilities at all, so I was doing a bunch of drugs and I was, I had already had explored the dabbling with doing whatever I want on the internet. Like I'm the king, I can do whatever I want. I felt good, but I still didn't really understand the real life versus the internet. Like it was all kind of warped together. Yeah. And so then around 18, 19, yeah, 18, you know, doing a bunch of drugs, doing a bunch of stupid shit in person, just literally feeling like a god. And making money.

Um, fly too close to the sun.

Yeah, I— within that, that summer, it was the summer I was 18 years old, and I still hadn't graduated high school either. Like, I wasn't doing good either, but I felt like I did whatever I want. But, um, yeah, I went to, uh, I went to jail, I went to rehab, I went to suicide watch, I went to a mental hospital. Like, I— yeah, um, I had, you know, people very close to me die and take their own lives and overdose on drugs. Like, It was very condensed into like a small amount of time where, all right, this is real life and shit's hitting the fan. Um, you know, this doesn't— this actually doesn't work as I thought it did. Um, so that was the first step where I was like, okay, I'm— I still kept the internet thing because it felt good, but, um, I kind of— I calmed down on the drugs and I stopped hanging around with the people I knew, which drew me more into the internet because everyone I knew at that point, you know, we like to do drugs and get fucked up and that's why we were friends. That's what I realized over time, right? Like, I didn't actually like them, they didn't actually like me, we just liked getting fucked up. Um, and they were all terrible people and I was probably— I was a terrible person too. But so like, that was the point where I was like, okay, I am who I hang out with. I— that's where I learned that aspect. I was like, okay, I'm not hanging out with them. But then I had nobody, so then I was like, all right, I'm on— I'm on the internet all the time now. I'm working, I'm on the internet, and that's it. Um, and then still just kind of fuck around the internet. People started going to prison, people started to get like, you know, is— that's where like the games really stepped up, where people would turn your power off for a month or the internet. Well, not me, but like people would really fuck with your real life. Yeah. Um, and like, you know, hire people to come to your house. Like, it's like, you you got now 19-year-old kids with money doing bad shit on the internet. So that's when I was still kind of heavy in that. I was kind of, you know, fading off of that because I was like, okay, this is also a bad idea. But at the same time, at that point, again, I knew all this stuff. I had, you know, I knew crypto, I knew how to do this stuff, but it wasn't worth shit back then, you know. And if I had it, I was spending on drugs, you know. So like, I still I still kind of was struggling with that stuff. Um, but the biggest thing is that I knew all these things, and like, I've been through a lot in life, and I was trying to do the right thing, but the only thing I could do was get some shitty-ass job that I hated, that like anyone could do. Anyone could do this job. And like, it was depressing, to be honest. Like, it really— like, I was depressed because I was like, I felt like I was better than that, but no one's gonna hire me or pay me to do better than that. So that's what I was, you know. I was— I was worth what I was, you know, someone's gonna pay me for. So, um, that was a struggle for a little bit too. And then, um, to be honest, like completely honest, you know, I had a kid and that's when I was like, okay, you know, there's a little bit of struggles, you know, along the way, but, um, that's when I was like, this isn't a game anymore. Like No one's gonna pay me to do anything if I can't prove it. If I just keep doing drugs, I'm gonna end up like all my friends, either in prison or in jail. If I keep doing all this shit on the internet, I'm gonna end up in prison or in jail. Um, and that also induces drugs because you start getting paranoid. It's all this dumb shit, like you just sit online and drink. Like, it's just everything I was doing and have been doing for a long time was going to lead me to a bad place, and I didn't want that. I just wanted to do something. And so that was a big catalyst for me, is I I was just like, look, I gotta fucking, I gotta buckle up and I have to prove what I know to people. And I have to create money because I can make money, but I wanted to make money in like ways where, you know, you don't want to sit around like, you know, Thanksgiving table talking to your family, got nice stuff and like lie about how you got it, you know? So I wanted to be proud of what I did and I wanted to be someone respectful. And that was honestly so extremely hard because I didn't know how to do that. I've never seen anyone do that. No one taught me how to do that. I didn't have any— no, I didn't have any experience of how to do that, but that's what I wanted to do. So, um, that, that took years. That took, that took a long time, to be honest. That was so hard. To do. And it was just like— and I'd fail all the time. I'd just get shut down. And, you know, I'd, you know, start drinking a little bit or start doing drugs because it didn't work and it sucked. But, um, I just kept doing it, to be honest. I just kept doing it. And then I started to kind of do what I knew best, where I started going around communities and hanging out with people that made money legitimately, legitimately. In ways that I would think I could be good at, and I pretended I was one of them. And I learned, you know, what they did, how they acted, how they carried themselves, and I started to do the same thing. I mean, like, they would read books, they would go to bed on time, they would, you know, they did good shit. And so I was like, all right, well, I know for a fact it works. These people are all doing it. Yeah, I'm gonna start doing that. Yeah. And, um, It worked, man. I mean, that again is one of those things was like, all those old people told me to do this forever. Everyone told me to do it. Yeah. And I was like, you're wrong, I'm gonna figure it on my own. And it took me a lot of struggle and a long time to figure it out. And at the end I was like, goddamn, they're fucking right. Like, they, they knew what they were talking about. Um, but yeah, I'd say just having, having something to live for besides myself, um, is what made me want to to not be a shithead, to actually like try to be something and be proud of who I was.

Uh, it's beautiful, man, and I feel that, and it really comes full circle to this whole discussion. So yeah, I want to thank you. That was a lot of wisdom condensed in that, uh, in that Soulcast. Um, I know people can reach you at @JonesHChrist on Twitter, but thank you so much for time, man.

Of course, it was a pleasure.

I appreciate it.

I'm a big fan.

Cool, thank you. Well, I'm sure we'll do this again one day. Uh, this has been Jones, everyone. Thank you for listening. Have a good night.