EP 51 - EP 51 with Fen de Villiers: The Flame of Vitality, Heroic Archetypes and the Inspirational Energy of Art

Boom! There we are.

Hey, Sol!

Hey, brother! Yes, I do. Loud and clear, my friend.

All right, man. What do I call you? Do I just call you Sol?

Yeah, Sol's good.

All right, man, fantastic.

Fen is— is de Villiers Dutch?

Um, uh, well, actually it's, uh, South African.

Oh, of course, I did think, but maybe as well.

Yeah, it's just— it just— it's de Villiers. Yeah, um, it's— it's just an old French Huguenot name, actually. Um, my father's from SA, so yeah, um So yeah, that's kind of where the name originates from.

Yeah, yeah, I did think that initially, but then I was like, wait, he has an English accent, so how does that work?

So yeah, it's not— I don't have like a really strong SA twang.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's slightly there though now that you think about it, you know.

Yeah, I suppose if you were to concentrate on it, then yeah, people can kind of point it out. I mean, my dad has it, but but I sound just, yeah, more sort of English, should we say. You're from Australia, right?

Or— Yes, born in England though. So English, 100% English stock, but from Australia, raised in Australia.

Okay. All right, gotcha. Gotcha.

Cool, man. Well, how's it been going? How is the world of incredible sculpture and art that you put out, how is that all going at the moment?

Oh well, it's busy, man. I'm working on my next series of sculptures now, so it's a busy time of the year. I've got another sort of exhibition coming up, so it's just— this year is just going to be taken up with me carving and casting work into bronze and stuff like that. So it's full on. It's full on.

For the Bronze Age.

The new Bronze Age.

Yes.

Indeed, indeed.

It feels a bit like that though, doesn't it?

Um, yeah, I suppose so. I suppose you could say that. Yeah, I suppose you could say that.

Not that I experienced it directly, but it seems like, at least from where we were a few years ago, that there is this extra level of almost piracy, you know. That's what some authors have written about. It's like this new level of where before the boomers could essentially have the, you know, safer but more, um, yeah, the safer, more traditional standard of living. Now it seems like our future's kind of hanging in the balance, that there lays some sort of extra level of, um, mischief or, you know, in unreliability of most Western cultures today that lends itself to the man of adventure, the man of action.

Oh yeah, absolutely. No, I completely agree. I think, I, you know, I think in these, um, I mean, I, I always look at it like this, like in these, um, sort of anti-dynamic times or these periods of extremely low energy, should we say, um, if you're not, um, you know, pushing forward and trying to, trying to sort of cut something, um, into, uh, you know, what stands before you, um, or where you, or where you hope to be going, then, then you'll simply be kind of lost in the, uh, the swamp.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. I had a guy yesterday who, he said, Sol, like, how do I, how do I get what I want? I was like, you know, my— he said, my life is kind of— I'm just not really doing much, it's not very successful. And I said Well, what do you want to do? And he didn't know. He hadn't actually sat down and thought, what is the kind of life that I want? What do I enjoy? What do I want to be doing 20 years from now? And I think part of the issue that people, maybe the majority of people don't get into a situation like that where they have designed their own life is because they've never had the time or inclination to actually think about it. So they go from job to job. Thinking, you know, oh, this might be good, this might be fun. There's no guiding North Star of how they actually want to create their life. So you naturally just end up kind of pushed around by the winds. And so I told this guy, I was like, look, it doesn't matter what you do right now. Uh, you know, you're 19, it'll, it'll kind of all blend into experience for your life. But you do need to think about what do I value? How do I want to be spending my life? And then once you have that image in your head, you direct thought energy towards it, and whatever way you can kind of backtrace, how do I get there, and start working from there.

Oh yeah, I mean, I think, I think that's great advice. I mean, especially to young guys today, um, you know, who are, as we, as we discussed, completely and utterly lost. Um, you know, one of the ways, of course, I've been, been trying to do this is simply you know, you, you can look back to a degree, for example, for myself in the arts world, and you can look at heroes and artists that you have found inspiring and that make sense in your life today, and you can, you can learn from them and you can aspire to be, you know, stronger or better, or, you know, let's say, um, uh, you know, try, try to grab grab at that vital flame and pull it forward and, you know, and, and march forward in this darkness that we, um, that we're in. But I mean, it's interesting because I, you know, I look at, um, you know, I came across your channel not that long ago. I'm relatively new to, uh, Twitter, um, but I see, you know, what you're putting out there, and you put your— you know, you're pushing out a positive message to a lot of people who I think are finding themselves very much kind of trapped, lost, don't really know what the hell to do. And I think that must be really, really, really hard. I mean, I'm fortunate enough to have, you know, arts as my practice. And I think that's something that you find with a lot of guys when— I mean, certainly in your circles where it's like you encourage them to get involved in a discipline like weightlifting or, you know, just, you know, sculpting your body or, you know, sculpting your body and therefore, you know, having a healthier mind. Yeah, um, to traverse this, this place we find ourselves in. Um, it's, it's of key, key importance now, uh, now more than ever, I would say.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's just what I've kind of— I feel like is my current role, uh, and service to the world, to just let people know what I've learned myself in my experience, and then There are— this is part of the thing with like my Soulsthetics page where I post pictures that kind of have this— you can't quite put your finger on it, but there's some artists or photographers or just the vibe of the picture itself that communicates this vital living, which it seems to have just gotten lost. Um, yes, like you said. So like, literally, like, people are losing their vitality, their quality of being alive. They're getting weaker, sicker, closer to death, like all the time, lower energy, less testosterone, declining birth rates, low sperm count. All of that is you're losing life. You're losing your vitality. Yes. So it's literally like something like you said, you said flame, which is a really good way to put it. That can burn bright if you're feeding it fuel and, you know, championing it at the front of your values, or it can die out because no one pays attention to it. No one gives it oxygen.

That is, you know, it's— yeah, absolutely so true. And, you know, this is something that I suppose we kind of resonated on, we kind of connected on, because, yeah, I've always looked at, um, you know, what's going on in society from, from a visual culture standpoint. And, you know, when you talk about the vital flame and that vital force, it's, it's been utterly occulted, hidden from view within the main, um, or major arts institutions, of which, you know, I'm obviously somewhat aware of because I'm a sculptor who's working in our contemporary times. And it's interesting because if there is no inspiring vital force, let's say you look at an image, you look at a painting, you look at a sculpture that is, you know, it's expressing an archetype of strength or vitality. If these things are not within our cultural realm, and, you know, art has the ability to uplift and inspire, but if these things, like we know, have been utterly occulted from current society, then it's like it only adds to the, you know, this mist that we're all walking through. And yeah, I mean, it's like I've— I'm a sculptor who's watched this now, and I've come to the understanding that instead of getting into the whole political scheme of things and getting involved in left and right and all this kind of, you know, petty, petty kind of games that you can end up going into, I wanted to look at this entire thing from an energetic and cultural standpoint. Yes, I wanted to look at it and say, um, you know, where are we, where are we going? And I wanted to stand for kind of the polar opposite of what our culture is currently putting out. As you say, you know, it's, it's there to actively weaken you. Yes, it's there to, to drain your life force.

Yeah.

Um, and what's going on— and this is something that I, um, started to very much come in contact with and became aware of as a young student in the arts, but then as someone who went on to carry on a career in the sculptural sector, shall we say. Because it's, you know, I think Sol, when you really look at it, art and true culture is there to express life and to uplift. That's my belief. It's there to provide and give power to the viewer and instill power in the viewer. That's my opinion. It's to provide the viewer with a sense of inspiration. Inspiration is a very strong thing. It's a very, very primal and powerful energy that runs through you when you're in that state, actually, that state of inspiration. And so if you look at the current arts and culture system, which is a very tightly controlled system, All of the major institutions are running on a script. They will only allow a certain type of art to be displayed even.

Really?

It's, it's, oh yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's the— if you look at the contemporary art scene, it's obsessed with the politics of identity. It's, it's very much looking at, like, you know, if you go and see a contemporary gallery, museum, or theater, you will come in contact with art that is concerned with race, gender, sexuality, power, and privilege.

Labels.

Just, just these sort of like labels. Yeah. And it's playing to this very cultural Marxian nonsense.

Yeah.

Um, and, and the art is very much rooted in the philosophy of deconstruction, which is this, this, this element of, you know, you, you take an idea and you essentially, you rape it of all its worth. You, you pull it apart, you disconnect it from context, and you keep on going until there's literally nothing left. Yeah. And this is, this is directly connected with, you know, what some people know as sort of the cultural Marxist view.

Yeah.

And you'll begin to understand that there are certain expressions within the arts that are no longer allowed and that have actually been occulted. And there's certain expressions that simply do not fit the script and narrative that we've been prescribed. And I say prescribed because frankly, you know, that is actually how culture is today. You've been given a very narrow view.

Yeah.

And it's like there, there is, there's an acceptable element that you can work within as an artist today, um, that can only be sort of expressed and explored within that very, you know, sort of tight, constricted element of, you know, that I spoke about. And if you're not doing the art that's based around gender, gender norms, or gender differences, and it's, you know, it's very kind of low vibration, kitchen sink sort of nonsense, then, um, you simply, you simply just won't be given the oxygen or given the ability—

The funding, right?

Well, there's elements of funding, but it's also, it's like, for example, you want to participate in a group exhibition or you want to, you know, have some of your work shown in a more public space or scenario that's taxpayer-funded, for example, and they simply will not allow It simply will not allow certain types of expression. And interestingly enough, the stuff that I have very much started to focus on, because I saw what wasn't allowed, it was that vitalistic energy. It was that masculine energy. It was that energy of, you know, showing unapologetic expressions, shall we say. And being straight shooting, you know, it's— I think unapologetic is an important word because it's like, if as an artist today you can't truly express where we are, what we stand for, and what's going on, then it's like, that's the entire role of an artist is to honestly express the time in which we are in, but also try and give life within that time, you know? And it's, I'm curious, Sol, I mean, like, What was it that originally— I mean, you, you came across my work on, on Twitter. We sort of connected. It was like actually quite a sort of a, you know, um, quick, quick sort of connection actually that we made.

Yeah.

Um, but what was it that you saw in it, like, just as a viewer from the outside? What was it right around you that sort of, you know?

Yeah, so for those that, uh, don't know, go, just go to Fen's, uh, Twitter quickly and look at his statues and sculptures that he makes, so you can just be more context and have the idea in mind. But like you said, there's this quintessential, almost brutal, but in a masculine aesthetic as well, ideal expressed in that way that I was just like, this guy gets it. Like, you know, like it really was like that. It's like you see the statue and that's, that's, you know, all credit to your skill of an artist to be able to actually make that into bronze, a bronze statue. But it's just like this innate feeling and seeing also, you know, digging a bit deeper, you've got, you know, some incredible ones, you know, the Ode to the Fireman and things like that. These heroic figures that it is the counterculture to support masculinity in that public way right now. That's just a fact. So, you know, it's also like, I'm obsessed with large statues. Like, in my, in my, you know, ranch that I have one day, I want like literal 40-foot marble statues of Greek gods or fucking whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The inspiration and just grandeur of having that in your environment is— that's why they built monuments to the, to the gods, to show their appreciation for you know, these spirits and whatever they thought ruled the world at the time, but there's something magical about them. And that can be, you know, communicated in a small statue as well, like, like you have. But there's something about just knowing that there are artists out there who— there were a lot and have been a lot over the decades, but I think like the majority, the popular, at least in like, you know, Western culture, is, as you were saying, very label-focused, very oriented, very Marxist. As most of the universities are. So seeing that was just cool. And I know that, you know, having the— if, when I rule the city, they're going to be mandated on street corners so that the populace have, as you say, have that dose of look at, you know, look what we stand for. Look at this monument that we've managed to organize and put together for our community. And doesn't it just represent like a hero of ours? You know, people are immortalized in statues if they've done particular heroic things or they're an icon. There's something very special and magical about a statue in the likeness of something which just communicates an idea without saying anything. There's no words on a statue, you know. True.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely true. Yeah, I mean, I think you put it really well actually, Sol. I mean, That's— I suppose that's the thing that always sort of enchanted me, actually, was that you could, you know, culture and art is something that really brings people together, that, you know, they feel deeply and it speaks to their spirit. If it's honest culture, I mean, of course, you know, coming across honest art and culture today is difficult, but when you, like, you know, the way I try to explain it is when you hear like some music that you really like, or when you hear, or when you sort of come in contact with, I don't know, a great theater piece or some real honest strong art, it really does make you feel energized and unstoppable, right?

Yeah, yeah.

You know, it's, and it's a feeling that you don't—

Might as well be magic, you know?

Yeah, yeah, indeed, indeed, yeah. I mean, and actually being within that state is, well, it's very, very dangerous, in fact, to actually have that energy or to have a certain group of people energized by true and honest culture that speaks to their spirit. Because of course, again, it goes back to that thing. It's that life-giving energy.

If you feel that way, then you're not gonna accept slavery. You're gonna be like, "Hold up, actually, no, I'm gonna leave my house." But, and this, this is where the connection with health and this kind of intersects is where—

Absolutely.

Because they have slowly weakened us through various different things that, you know, I've mentioned a million times in this podcast, um, food quality, plastics, pollution, um, you know, EMF, you know, everything, the pharmaceutical industry, the medical industry. All of that. Yeah, it's— each one is a little bit, but when they all add up, it's like you're gonna have a weakened human on average, uh, in the society. And why is that? Because the weaker you are, the better they can take advantage of you. It's very simple. Um, so the, the, the statues are almost like this recharge that people can tap into to kind of get onto that track, which is the same thing as taking your health to that next level and being aware of the modern kind of detriments to it.

Yeah, I mean, this is something, I mean, you know, again, you get it, Sol. It's, you know, when you look at art, this is why I really encourage people to— because, you know, a lot of what's going on in the culture sector is people have this feeling where they don't— they've kind of turned their back on art and visual art, shall we say. Or fine arts, and because they just see what's currently pushed today and they think to themselves, well, so much of this doesn't speak to me, and they kind of disconnect. But I would encourage people out there to honestly go and find— I mean, this is really quite a revolutionary thing to do in today's age, is to go and find your culture's art and their true expressions. You don't have to look that far back. You can look back to early modernism, a period that I look back at. If you look back at the Italian Futurists, if you look at the Vorticists, if you look at what was going on with the Art Deco sculptures—

oh, I love Art Deco.

Yeah, I mean, this is not something you have to even look that far back at to see. Yeah, yeah, there was real glory there. There was, there was real life-giving expressions. Okay, it wasn't, it wasn't hyper-traditional in the sense of, you know, uh, perfectly carved Renaissance sculpture or whatever, but Yeah, it doesn't necessarily matter because it's the metaphysical embodiment of ideals that are truthful and beautiful and honest and have this, um, you know, have the ability to, to actually kind of awaken you to who you are and what, what culture you're actually a part of. Because that's also something you, you really notice along with, you know, the the food that's been, you know, totally degenerated and stuff like this, is that they've really done their best to disconnect you from your culture and where you come from and who you are and what the greats of the past stood for and what the gods and the archetypes of the past stood for. I mean, this is something that I constantly try to do in my own work. I mean, it's an early— it's in its infancy, infancy really, but I always try to connect to archetypes because those— because I feel like art should talk to the universal and the eternal, the timeless. And it's, you know, I try— I mean, these masculine archetypes that I'm playing with, these are things that have always been there and we didn't— you know, you can manifest them in an image of a sculpture, let's say, and you don't have to I don't have to sit there or stand there and try to explain to you what it stands for.

It should—

art should speak that language.

It doesn't need labels. Art doesn't need labels. Like, good art, you don't need to even the caption or the name of the painting.

Absolutely. No, absolutely.

That's how I rate good art, is like you see and you go, oh yep, there's— it's just hitting something, you know.

Something— there's something there.

Yes, exactly.

There's, there's an energetic response going on that you are tapping into. I mean, this is— I suppose this is something that, that you also come in contact with as well in the, in the more sort of fitness world, is if you're, if you're healthy and you're, you're looking after your body and you're eating the right things, you are putting out a much higher vibration energetically.

Yeah.

And it's like honest art can do that too. It sort of, it pushes out an honest magnetism that has that nourishing life-giving force. Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, it's like all your environment at all times has an energetic signature and—

Yes, yes.

Luxury things, the more expensive things, they have a higher vibrational energy, whether that's due to the materials, um, who made it, you know, the style of it, the quality and maybe love that's put into those things that are more expensive because there's less of them. They carry a resonant frequency, which to the point where you go to a luxury hotel, uh, in the lobby or the bar or whatever, and just kind of absorb the feeling of like, okay, so this is what, you know, $1,000 per night is, uh, to stay. And it's like, that's going to feel different than your motel. Like, why is that? Right. You know, there's a bed and it doesn't look the same, but there's a resonant energetic feeling that you can tap into and just be aware that your environment may be doing that to you, uh, for better or worse. And you can— when you spend more time in those higher-end luxury environments, like, it rubs off on you to the point where you make more money. Uh, and it, that's That's, that's common advice given to people is like, if you're struggling making money, go, go and, you know, buy a drink at a bar of one of these places and just kind of really absorb it and think it in and, and become more comfortable with being in that kind of environment. Like, this is normal for me. And then because you're shifting those preconceived beliefs about money that you had and money that you're going to have and being in that environment, it all kind of coalesces together into making more money through through one way or another, right?

Yeah, I can see, I can see the, uh, the approach there.

Yeah, yeah. When you're sculpting, is it— and, and maybe just going to the actual process, like, you— it's not a big chunk of bronze that you're kind of chiseling out, or maybe it is, I don't know, uh, but the, the energetic process, like, do you feel there are certain bursts of inspiration where you're just channeling that energy into it, or is it more you can see it kind of come through the clearer the image is?

Yeah, well, it's a great— yeah, it's a really great question because, I mean, for bronze, it's really a process of you work in clay or wax and you will build— it's an additive process, you'll build something up, you sculpt something up. And then when I'm working in stone, it's a process of taking away, so I'm purely just carving into the material and, you know, looking to find the shapes and the forms and the the image that I want to convey. But of course, that image that I want to convey, or what I'm actually trying to express, comes through me as an energetic response. It's like you feel it in your belly. You're not spending the time really thinking about, oh, it's gonna be like this, it's gonna be like that. It's a process of, channeling, um, well, that creative force. And, and you don't feel it in your head, you feel it in your belly. I think that's something that— yeah, it's an element of that, but it's, it's, it's something that I, I always find quite difficult to actually put my absolute finger on and say it's, it's exactly this. But yeah, I can only speak of it in energetic terms. It's like you, you are in contact with that material and you're channeling a certain energy, and it's— you're following the process.

Yeah.

And this picture that you're trying to put into the stone or the, or the clay or whatever, it begins to make itself known to you, and you follow that force, you follow that energy, and it's very much an organic process. I don't— you know, I do drawings before I make a sculpture, or I'll make small maquettes or little figures, but it's never exactly the same, and I'd never want it to be absolutely the same as the drawing. I think you must allow, you must be in a process of allowance. It's what they call, you know, getting in and out of the zone, you know. You can experience the zone as an athlete, you can experience the zone as someone who's, you know, painting a picture or drawing or or sculpting. It's being in that process of hyper-connectedness and concentration, actually. And it's only really in the zone that that creative energy will flow through you. And I think other artists might relate to this, but it's quite an interesting thing, is that when you're in that state, you're sort of dreaming while being awake. And then what you have is you have this process of when you sort of come out of it again, is you're sometimes surprised by what the hell you've actually— what's actually manifested, because you're like, God, what, what took place here? What actually is this? What's, what's coming forward? But it speaks to me intuitively, you know. Um, and I think that's the thing, is, is I always find that, you know, you make it— as an artist, you make something and it comes from an intuitive response, and then you show it you put it on display, you bring it somewhere, and other people then recognize something within that. They say, oh, that speaks to me. I don't even know why, but it speaks to me. And again, it, again, it comes down to that. It's that energetic response that you, that you have. And some people don't, you know, some people feel it, other people don't feel it at all, and that's totally fine, you know. It's not for them, you know. Yeah, it's— that's, that's—

yeah, there do seem to be certain people who Well, you know, these, these ends up being the greatest artists of our generation, and they are idolized for a reason, is because they have some level of the ability to channel into this thing that everyone resonantly feels that not many people have. And, you know, they were chosen by whoever in this lifetime to live that kind of life and be that kind of person. And I think it's revered as almost mysticism. That's why the greatest pop stars or artists, they're desired by everyone. It's like this— yes, they're rich and famous as well, but there's even the broke musician. If they have that real spark of something divine inside them, it's so beautiful to kind of experience and and just even, uh, have that feeling, that connection with it. Uh, and it— I think it is something that you can cultivate. Um, I think a lot of people absolutely may, like you're saying, they, they intellectualize the creative process a lot, and that's maybe a result of our cultural kind of grind production, uh, absolutely dominant culture. So, uh, so you think, how do I— how do I— how can I monetize this? How many hours a day do I need to be practicing this before I then I'm able to do this thing. And that's true to a point. Like, you have to learn how to sculpt, you have to learn how to, how to paint and do the thing, and there's skills within that. But there's another side of the creative process where, because you are showing up every day and trying to get into the zone, the zone becomes more accessible to you.

Yeah, yeah, I know, you put it wonderfully, Sol, actually. Yeah. Um, It's something that I've often said because since I came online, there's been a number of actually young artists, painters, sculptors who have reached out to me and they say, "Ah, you know, it's really great that you're trying in your own way to try and forge another way or show another way." And I am simply in my own small way beginning to try to forge another way. It's early days, but it's great to see that it inspires has started to inspire other artists.

Yeah.

And they ask, you know, could you give me advice? What shall I do? What can I, you know, how they sort of say, how can I do this? I've got my day job, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. And it's true. Yeah, well, there's the other, you know, there's that of course. But it's something that you've touched on there is it's like we spend a lot of time trying to over-intellectualize the process of going in on being an artist or being someone who actually wants to go ahead and create. Yeah. And you know, you've got these barriers where it's like, oh, but how am I gonna do this? How am I gonna monetize it? And I find this, it starts to get into like a really difficult and profane area. Of course you need to, to a degree monetize your art. Of course, otherwise you simply can't do it. But those who spend more time getting into the process and genuinely making, genuinely creating, and pushing forward with that inner voice that is telling them to make the art. I think that's a much better place, a much better, uh, thing to follow, rather than coming at it from this, this other theoretical standpoint of, oh, but how am I going to do this, and how is that going to make, and how's that going to happen? Yeah, yeah, it's like it goes back to this esoteric thing of I believe that if you look after the work, everything else looks after itself, in the sense that if you follow that energy, yeah, of creation, then you are going to be— and this sounds very esoteric to a lot of people, but you're going—

God provides. God provides. And yeah, you know, that's what it is.

It's, you know, it's—

it—

you can look at it like that, but it's, it's like you're— when you're following the creative process, you're following a truth, you're following an honesty, um, that, that, of course, is if you're not getting tangled up in the, uh, the mental gymnastics and games of the current postmodern world in which we reside. But if you are genuinely following something inside of you, which is, you know, this voice, this, this, this, this fire, then I believe nature finds a way. That's, that's what I Yes.

Um, what was I going to say? Yeah, there's almost like this threshold where you have to put in X amount of hours to learn the basics to the point where you could comfortably learn to put your own bit of pizzazz into it, whatever that is. So like, you know, the basics, uh, you're not going to fumble, uh, whatever it is.

That's important. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so there is that. And then it's almost like that is the prerequisite of earning your stripes to then be able to deliver the artistic flair. The, the snowboarder that's never snowboarded isn't gonna try and be like, well, I can see if I'll do this new turn or whatever. It's like, no, learn how to just go in an S down the, down the slope first, uh, you know, before you even try and do your backflip or whatever. But once you've been down the slope a thousand times You know, go, go to a jump and experiment with it. And wherever that may make you land, maybe you crash, but maybe you pull off this great trick that no one's seen before. And then that enables you to kind of develop that creative process, that creative skill, because the creative skill of tapping into the zone and the spirit is a skill in and of itself. And you can do it through writing, you can do it through sculpting, you can do it through anything. But it's this underlying creative energy that I think all humans have access to in their own way.

Yeah, no, I absolutely believe that too. And it is, you know, of course, you know, don't get me wrong, you do need to learn the ground basis of whatever skill or practice you're going into. And I'm still very much in that process now. I mean, I'm still a young sculptor and I—

Always will be, right?

Yeah, I mean, you should continuously be learning. And all the manifestations of the work that I'm making now are, you know, it's— you essentially, as a sculptor, you put out a piece of work that was an entire process. It was an entire process. It was like, you know, a writer puts out a book, a sculptor puts out a piece of sculpture. It contains the entire journey of the artist in there. And you are making the work, you know, you're making the best work that you can make with the ability that you have in this time now.

Yeah.

And of course you should always aspire to continue evolving and continue growing. You know, you— I think as an artist you never want to just become this one-trick pony and you say, oh, I just kind of make this one thing. It's like, no, you should hope to continue to grow and evolve and your work can can, you know, harbor further strength and further life, and it gets— it gets— it matures.

Yeah.

And so it's something that I, you know, it's something that I actually have thought deeply on. It's something that I've spoken to a number of people about, is, you know, I inspire a lot on early modernism, and it has a very— it has a very brutal and, uh, you know, primal aesthetic, which I love because it expresses direct energy. But then you have people who are like, well, I'd like to see it more refined. And I think that's, you know, I think that's a really, really great thing to, uh, to think about because that's also where I'm very interested in going as well, is continuously growing. I'd never want to become completely just trapped in one, in one style and just say, oh, this is me now and this will be me for the next 50 years or something. Yeah, it's like I'm actually now in my next series of work, I'm starting to look into Art Deco and I'm starting to take more of that inspiration and bring it together. I'm excited to bring that together with, with some of the, some of the more, um, you know, energetic, um, futurist-inspired works. And, and so it's— I'm kind of in that process now, which I'd like other artists to get involved in actually, is to ask these aesthetic questions of today and to say, what is a style that resonates with who we are today? And actually not only who we are today, but where we are going, because it's— I think that's an important thing, is that if you look back in the past, there were different art movements, there were different styles, there were different things going on. It was very very, very exciting if you look at the visual arts of the past and the different movements that were involved. And I think it would be great for that to come back again today, where you could have artists that have different inspirations, some artists that are far more traditional, some artists that are far more classical, some artists that are, you know, really in the forefront and avant-garde and trying to push aesthetics into new realms. That's what a healthy culture should be. It should be, um, brimming with all kinds of different possibilities.

Yeah.

But of course, it, you know, we're currently shackled and chained to this zombie culture that we, yeah, that we're in. So that's not allowed.

It's, it's, uh, it's said that, you know, architecture is an expression of the health of the society. At that time.

Fascinating.

Yeah, um, art is the same. Um, whatever art a society produces is dependent on the sentiments on average of the people. So when there's a vital future to be proud of and to aspire to, the art is going to have those values. And like, man, our country's on the map, we're, you know, we're expanding this industry, everyone's trying to help each other, and you know, we're in it together and let's do it for tomorrow for our kids. Like, that will inspire some really, you know, as we've seen in the past, some great inspirations, uh, and statues and art. But then because you have today, everything's labeled, it's all doom and gloom, everyone's cortisol is fucked from looking at social media and the news, then okay, what is that unhealthy society going to produce unhealthy statues and monuments of like, you know, sexually depraved things in the middle of, you know, public squares or, uh, these brutalist buildings, which just, you know, they inspire like this really depressing vibe instead. Like if a building is going to exist in a public space, you should one, take the tradition of the country in order, like, okay, what did our buildings used to look like? Let's try and at least incorporate some elements of that, keep it classical, uh, you need— and unique. But what we seem to, uh, see now is these brutalist skyscrapers because they're cheaper, car parks, uh, even like libraries that have been commissioned by architectural departments of Marxist universities, these disgusting, um, eyesores basically, and $100 million have been spent on it. So it's like that, I think, is just a symptom of where the culture is today. And things that countries and governments that are building beautiful things because they recognize the value in it and the value in aesthetics for the people, they're the ones that are going to be better off in 50 years.

You really touch on brilliant points there. It's, it's so true. I've often, you know, meditated on the idea of, you know, the health of a society is really reflected within its visual arts or within its arts in general.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, you know, it's, it's, it provides a great, um, thermometer to actually see where things are. And it's, you know, that the way I look at it now is it— what I, what I think is really important is that there is enough of us now, there's enough people across the internet and people, you know, the different connections that we're making, even with, even physically, um, that I'm starting to come to the point where I think, do you try to actively change the culture that you are in for the better in these dark times? And I'm interested in your opinion on this. Or do you start to look to form a breakaway culture, um, that is, you know, because I look at this, unless something radically changes within society, which frankly I don't hold much hope for, then we'll need to form a breakaway culture that will, you know, essentially get off this sinking ship. And we'll need to build our own institutions that are open to showing another way and that resonates with us, should we say.

Yeah.

And because essentially the mass are bewitched by the narrative of today, they follow it blindly, literally bewitched. And yeah, and they are misled, sadly. And, and unless they can be energized and awakened, then you're fighting an uphill battle that I think is better sidestepped by— yeah.

Well, yeah, so this is what I think about it. You can't fix a failing system You can only build a better one and hope that the performance of that inspires others to join your society and not this crumbling one. Uh, that's the only option because rather than try to Band-Aid fix all these things, all these institutional rules which carry their own energy, and thousands of people around the globe have kind of subscribed to those particular rules. So imagine trying to break those biases in hundreds of thousands of people. It's, it's impossible. So what you have to do is create a better, more high-performing version where the health of the people is more primary and, and apparent, and success, and like there's something to strive for. And then people that are aligned with the vision, one, are going to come. So your high percentage of those people are kind of on board and more motivated to it. But yeah, like you said, it's, it's the breakaway kind of path where that's our only real option, uh, if we want to live truly vital lives.

Yeah, it's, it's something that I start to think more and more about. Um, it's—

and that's as simple as growing your own food, right? Like, it's, it's not everyone pack up and leave. It's, it's— there's this other system of, uh, growing your own food so you don't have to subscribe to the food narrative and what they allow in the supermarkets. It's taking care of your health. It's, it's— there's this other almost cultural civilization which we know produces— that anyone can participate in as we're kind of connecting these connections online with people that are values-oriented around the same things. So you have this cultural community forming on the internet which I think can be somehow mechanized or weaponized with crypto technologies. Not weaponized literally, but just like, yeah, actually juice to this thing, uh, through the technology. I think that's gonna be the future, uh, in terms of having this, uh, online structurally sound community which inevitably has to become physical in real life. Obviously that, that's the end goal. Uh, but I think it's very interesting how like-minded people, despite all censorship and everything, it's very easy to find content that aligns with you. You know, you browse a bit on Instagram, uh, and the content algorithm will be, okay, he likes this, I'm gonna, you know, suggest this person. So you can actually use those tools to align yourselves in contact with people that are like-minded. And I think more and more people are kind of waking up to that each day.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, this is, this is something that I've been noticing. I mean, I'm kind of a boomer when it comes to, um, the whole—

how old is this—

Twittersphere. I'm 32, but I, I never jumped onto this whole Twitter thing until relatively recently. I mean, I made a Twitter account a little while ago, but I never really got into it as much as I have done recently. Yeah, um, I mean, I'm not fully versed at all in, um, you know, for example, BAP and all this kind of stuff. I haven't read the book, I haven't gotten into all that kind of stuff. Yeah, you'll like it, you should. I still need to sort of check this stuff out, but it's interesting because I think that's one of the great gifts of the internet at least, is that we can indeed form, you know, these digital meeting places, let's say. And it's, as you say, eventually though it's going to have to become physical, it's going to have to become become and manifest itself in the physical world.

Yeah.

And that's actually now where I start to become excited because I think there— it's undeniable now. There are literally thousands of us, millions of us who are starting to awaken and figure things out. Yeah. And that's a very, very, very exciting place to be, especially for— well, I mean, for culture, for health, for all kinds of things. Because it doesn't take huge amounts of people— going back to the mass narrative— it doesn't take huge amounts of people or percentages of populations to cause an entire shift in the thinking of a society. It, you know, some, some say it's anywhere between 3 to 5 to 10% even.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, rule of the minority.

Yeah, I mean, if you have an energized group of individuals or people who are connecting, who were individuals who are now, you know, more of a kind of, you know, cohesive group, yeah, um, that can inspire— and that I come back to that word again because it's— you ultimately need to inspire and show another way. And that's what I think you're doing and other people in this sphere are doing. I'm trying to do it myself now in my own small way, shall we say.

It's not small, don't diminish what you're doing, you know.

But it's from that that real change can take place.

Yeah, and it's— inspiration is, okay, look, what is it really? You are performing or doing something in a way that when other people listen to you or see what you're doing, they are copying and doing that thing. That's inspiration. You inspiring me to go do this because you do it, you know? That is at a direct level influencing behavior of others. If you can influence, uh, sorry, inspire, um, millions of people into doing something that's good for their health, good for the health of society, then society has no choice but to get better. That's what it is at a mechanistic level. So if you want to change the world, yeah, focus on inspiration, focus on yourself, uh, doing the things which do inspire others, which will also inspire yourself and inspire everyone. It's this beautiful network, uh, butterfly effect. To— that's how you change the world.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I mean, Sol, like, when you look at the current system that we're under, the current thing that we reside in here, I do— I mean, the cracks are showing, right? I mean, you do see that the— it— like, the system begins to eat itself. Yeah. And it really does start to become this sinking ship.

Yeah, and, and piracy begins once there's no stability of the institutions kind of underpinning everything. Then a lot of things change very quickly.

Yeah, it can be a rapid shift. And I think that's because there's so many, there's so many, as you guys would say, call— you would call it black pills. There's so many black pills going on in, in a lot of, um, a lot of these different spheres. And I think the, the sort of the white pill that I'm certainly taking is that I just, I think we're actually starting to see a, this is falling apart. It's not going to be able to continue marching forward for too much longer with the way things are going. It's not going to be able to continue the just the entire propagandistic machine that is required to, to have this, to have this, this entire, uh, mirage.

Yeah, yeah. Lies, lies can never stand in the face of the truth. That's a quintessential fact of life. And anything that's built on lies will eventually crumble and fall. Uh, and the truth is always there. The truth is the truth. And What's key about communist ideology is based upon lies. It's based upon, you know, shaming and you can't discuss certain ideas. That can never sustain itself. So the black pill is actually a white pill, you know?

Like, yeah, exactly.

We can all agree that, okay, this society probably isn't operating well. People are unhappy. People committing suicide. You know, no one's healthy. We're not innovating like we used to. Like, something's wrong. Birth rates are declining. It's bad. So if you want that to continue, like if you want things to not break down, then you'll just have that system continue and it's not working. So this has to fall away. The lies have to fall away in order for the truth to remain and the new society to be built. It's just simple. And there's a bit that's like, yes, lots of turbulence. Um, who knows what will happen? You know, maybe more war, whatever. But ultimately you have to be white-pilled the at macro change, which means our kids and our grandchildren may very well— well, they will have the type of life that we would desire for them because we will create it and affect it. And the blank space that's kind of left now as institutions crumble, you can fill that with your own creation.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's— you've certainly put that very succinctly. And you know, it's I think it's about just, you know, you mentioned it briefly there, but it's essentially just, it's going to be turbulent and it's about weathering the storm. And you've got to look after your mental health, you've got to look after your physical health, and you've got to keep yourself energized.

Yeah.

And I think if you can do that and you can go through these turbulent times, which are definitely coming because society will go through its, you know, the death throes, shall we say.

Yeah, already turbulent, right?

Like already Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We're already seeing it. And but if you can, if you can, if you can survive that and you can come out the other side, then it's, it's going to have been an amazing journey to have been on. Yeah, I think. And it's going to be an incredible experience to have gone through, or at least partly gone through, because I mean, this could also take considerable time, or it could happen very quickly. It's something that we need to to, you know, be present with, I would say.

Yeah, it's— the Chinese have a curse saying, "May you live in interesting times." Yes, that is absolutely true.

Yeah, it's absolutely true.

So interesting times, because when we are speaking to our grandchildren, we can say, "You know what? Come here, little Jimmy, I'm going to tell you a story about, you know, how the world collapsed in 2022." So hey, look at the bright side, we will have some interesting stories to tell.

That's indeed true. That's very, very true, Sol.

It would be worse to have a boring life, truly.

The thing is, I've always said this, is you, however you come at this, you only sort of live this one life where we are now.

And well, some might debate that.

Exactly. That's why I say that's why I say It depends how you come at this. But say this manifestation of yourself, you have this one chance, let's say, of, you know, how it's, how it's playing out.

Yeah.

Align yourself with at least a sense of glory, a sense of honor, a sense of nobility. Yeah. And these are archetypes, these are archetypal things and energies you can connect with. And if you can do that, then it's, it's like that thing, you can at least look back on your deathbed you can at least say, my God, I did what was needed at the time, and I actually stood for something, and I lived to a sense of nobility. And I think that's key. I think that's so important today.

Yeah, it's like the worst punishment that you can face in this life is knowing you didn't step up to the plate when it counted and you were too scared and you failed essentially your people, you failed your family because you didn't, you know, speak your truth and be honest about what you think, what you believe, and stand for it. And that's what we saw at scale with, with all the, the lockdowns and things. It's like this little incremental, um, erosion of rights because not enough people willing to say, wait, uh, this doesn't actually make sense. Like, it's indeed— this is why propaganda is such a tool because it diminishes the energy of the people through repeated demoralization. And if you're consuming this content online that's making you feel upset, everything's bad, uh, I have no energy, like you literally, it lowers your energy. If it's increasing your fear, you're lowering your vibrational energy.

Yeah.

So they do that to a people and they say, be ashamed of who you are, your ancestors were bad, uh, et cetera, et cetera. They— it's spiritual warfare, it's energetic warfare, which is warfare, uh, on, on some level. It's as old as Genghis, you know, Genghis Khan, when he used to send out spies to the cities, you know, months before he, uh, would even attempt to kind of conquer them. And he would get his spies to spread rumors about how Genghis Khan's army is the biggest the world's ever seen, that the most vicious, most brutal to the point where the city was so demoralized by the time he came through, they all just gave up and they didn't even bother fighting him because they thought, well, there's no way we can have a chance against Genghis Khan's army. And then he rolls in and maybe the army isn't as big, but because they had already given up, the war was won before he even had to pull out his sword.

Wow, that's— yeah, I mean, it's brilliant that you bring that up because it comes down to that thing again, isn't it? It's being able to instill fear. And if you have a sense of fear in the mind of people, and I think that's very much what we have today. It's like, I recently posted a quote on my Twitter page and it states, you know, like all the enemies that we now face are internal. And the biggest enemies that we face are in our own minds. The feeling that we shouldn't say this, we shouldn't write this, we shouldn't speak this, we shouldn't think this. These are the biggest enemies that we have. That was by Bowden, Jonathan Bowden. And I think it's just so absolutely right on. One of the goats. It's absolutely, it's so damn right on. And it's something that if you're policing, if we're in that state of constantly policing what you're gonna say, oh, I shouldn't say this, you know, And it happens to everyone. I mean, I even catch myself doing it, um, still today. It's, it's been so instilled within us, actually. And if you have that process, then you are, you are imprisoned. You are imprisoned, and you're living under a consistent state of fear. And that's where, you know, I think it's great that you bring up the Genghis Khan, uh, um, concept, because it's, it's like you're really just ruled in your own minds. Yeah, you don't have to have physical chains on, you don't have to be, um, you know, having someone put you in a gulag because the prison is carried everywhere with you.

Yes, you— it's so our mind, you are the prisoner, the jailer, and the jail all at once with everything. It's, it's at a very you know, simple level in terms of your self-limiting beliefs, that keeps you in a chain, uh, that affects your reality. Because as we believe is as we perceive, and that's what we see in the world. It's very simple. The, the outside is reflected— is a reflection of your inner mind. So if you have all of these chains on you, you've accepted that I can't say this, I can't go here, I can't delve into that idea or concept and you can't express your true honest feelings, okay, so you're a prisoner. Like, what does a prisoner do? They speak when they're spoken to. They can only go in a certain area and they're locked inside. They don't have freedom. If you don't have mental freedom, that's the stuff, because like you can never leave that jail. You're in there 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That is the worst mental prison, worst prison to be in. You know, obviously I don't want to be a physical prison. There's lots of prisoners going through very, very hard times, and it's both in there, right? But at scale, if you haven't broken any laws, you are within a mental prison. And a lot of the state of your life is looking at yourself and saying, well, why don't I just walk through that door? Why don't I just delete this wall from my mental reality? And then I can step outside. I'm not in prison anymore. And part of that is being honest with everything. And these ideals of nobility and sacrifice and heroism, they speak to that freedom.

Absolutely true, absolutely true. You must align with these things, you know. The, the civilizations of the past did, and they're extremely powerful, again, archetypes that you must, you must align with. Especially in these times. It's, um, it's really— it's— I think you put it well. It's like you, you can, you can— everyone has the ability to walk out of this prison. It's actually, you know, it's, it's simply just being able to have the courage to leave the chains at the door and walk out the door.

It—

yeah, in a sense, if you had that kind of— it would almost be like a mass enlightenment that could that could happen once the spell— once the spell is broken. Yeah, again, coming back to sort of esoteric terms, it is a spell. It's a spell that's been cast upon people.

Yes.

And once that spell is broken, um, you could— overnight, things would be radically different, right, in society.

And that's the power of the Twittersphere we find ourselves in, is that memes will poke fun at the lies of the institution. And when you see a meme that, you know, maybe you're on the cusp of all these ideas, you haven't quite had the wool pulled from your eyes, you see a meme that develops— or sorry, delivers a particular point of information or pokes a hole in, you know, one of the reigning statements that they kind of take to be true in a funny way. Humor disarms, and humor allows you to tell the truth without people getting upset because the context is like, well, it's funny, or you deliver in a certain way that, that gets people to think about it, or it gets it into their brain beneath the guarded defenses, which are usually set in place so that if they see the color red, they can go, oh no, that's blue. That's blue actually. Like that rejection of reality through humor, through art as well. That is the role that those things fill. And that's kind of like you send out one tweet which might change someone else's perspective in a, in a simple way, which they then carry on to their family a bit of information. Hey guys, we probably shouldn't eat that because look at this. And then the whole family gets healthier. They have more energy to pursue whatever they want to do in life and the health of the society increases and so does their vitality. And Therefore, so does their inability to be ruled over.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's great that you bring up memes actually, because, um, yeah, since getting involved further in Twitter, I'm just absolutely blown away by some of the fantastic—

it's incredible— such a high level of intelligence as well. God, yeah.

I mean, it, it really— honestly, as a, as a visual artist, um, coming in contact with memes and seeing, seeing how masterfully they can disarm and completely switch an idea. It's absolutely incredible. And there was like that thing I came across not that long ago talking about the magic of memes, actually. And they are magical. But then again, visual culture in many respects is, you know, is a sense of magic because you're able to transmit an idea, you're able to transmit a visual idea, it's instantaneous. And ideas spread. I mean, you know, ideas spread like a kind of a virus even. We see how certain ideas are spreading in society today and we see how counter ideas spread through them, but memes just give that immediacy and immediately can sort of, it's like, again, it's like casting a spell. It dispels that.

It's its own art form, right? Like you don't need this caption. You can just see a meme which has some visual representation of, you know, soyboy versus the Chad. And you see that and you just instantly know, like, okay, there is some context if you've seen other memes, but you can generally see, oh, the guy with the big jaw, he's attractive, he has this perception. And the soyboy, you know, he has this kind of idea about the world. It's funny, it transmits information that doesn't need captions and, you know, can inspire or at least inform or somewhat change someone's mental perception, which is art. As well.

Well, yeah, I mean, and it's, and it's extraordinarily archetypal, and it speaks that archetypal language. I mean, even just this, this idea that you talk about, you know, the soy boy and the Chad, or all these different things, and it's like a reflection of the, you know, he's got a big jaw, the Chad has a big jaw. But it's— these are archetypal displays in nature of certain types of dominance or virile, uh, expressions within, within nature. But it's brilliant to see them being archetypally connected to in the digital age of meme culture. And these are things that we've— I mean, we as human beings know instinctively. We can see these elements and displays of power. We can see these elements and displays of youth and strength, you know, within people, for example, but also within animals, because it's all again archetypal. And that's why, you know, I connect as an artist in the visual realm because, again, it's talking to archetypes. I think if you can control the archetypes and you can display the archetypes and you can put them forth, which is what memes do brilliantly, then that is a beginning of peeling back the veil and exposing the kind of, the, well, yeah, essentially the matrix. Yes. You know, it really speaks to that. I think that's absolutely fascinating. I mean, especially like this thing that was coming about recently where that woman was asked to define a woman. Did you see that? I mean, I haven't, I've seen it kicking around on Twitter recently, but it's like this thing that you constantly see where people— you'll have a lot of people who will constantly ask you to define words whenever you're trying to make an argument or something. Right. They'll say, yeah, but define this and define that. And then it's just extraordinary that we— it's like this display of that we don't even know what the hell language stands for anymore. Because everyone has to define whatever a word supposedly means. And then when you try to define the word, someone else—

that's not true.

Yeah, yeah. Or they'll say, but define what you're actually trying to define the word with, with the words you're using.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Extraordinary. Yeah, it's absolutely extraordinary. And it just shows that there is absolutely no basis on which society stands anymore. It's eroded.

Yeah, again, it's that hyper langualisation, and that's not a word, but you know what it means. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's the definitions, the labels, all of this kind of illusionary rhetoric which is just meant to obfuscate and actually like devolve, deride the argument so that what are we— we're actually not discussing the issues anymore, we're focused on these meaningless definitions that don't actually have any real world, uh, tangible kind of existence. But yeah, I, I think it's like human beings haven't changed, right? Technology has just allowed a different form of these things to occur. And back in the day, it might have been, say there's a, you know, King Henry, um, would, would have like a King Henry the Drunk would become a meme if they were the the, the underclass or like the peasants who ruled over him, they didn't like him. They noticed he was drinking, so they called him King Henry the Drunk. And that, yeah, you know, it, it removes a level of authority. And you can only give authority over yourself. Like, someone— no one has authority over you. It's what authority you believe to be valid. And that's a totally internal thing. Yes, someone has more guns and could exist physically you know, punishment on you, but the authority only comes from what you give them. And memes and poking fun and, and kind of just figuring out, you know, oh, these guys actually aren't what they say, it's, it's a way of again improving the level of energy of the populace. And yes, it all comes back to that central tenet of inspiration. You know, memes, I'm sure, have been the result of, you know, millions of people going to the gym for the first time, things like that.

Oh my God, yes. Okay, I mean, can you imagine the, the mass effect that these memes have actually really had on the real, on the real world?

Yeah, you, you actually see that memes become reality. Like, I literally think that if it means, you know, memes, uh, are in the dominant kind of conscious mind of millions of people around the world because it was shared a certain number of times. That many people having that idea of reality in their heads directs thought energy towards it, brings that reality into existence, or increases the chances of it.

Yeah, no, so true, so true. It's, um, yeah, it's an extraordinary thing. And that's why I, I really do, you know, it kind of just to sort of conclude and summarize here is like, I don't put my faith now in the dirty game of politics from either left or right, but I do put the faith in culture. I do, I do believe that that's where the fire lies, and the— and I think that's where the, the changes will come from, is that it will come from a cultural standpoint. And it's only, it's only through true culture and also the use of memes and all this kind of stuff that you will have an energetic response to what's going on today. You, the only way to counter where we are is through higher energy and higher vibrations. And I think that, you know, moving forward, I can only hope that your audience and my audience and all the people that we are interconnected with and who we're inspiring or uplifting will align further with these things. And together, that, you know, that's powerful. There really will be change. There really will be that we can achieve the dreams that we all have if we can just bring a sense of, you know, cohesion together and actually work together and be more of a collective force in these times.

That's beautiful, man. I wholeheartedly believe that as well. Incredible. Thanks, man. I want to just take a moment, say thank you for the work you put out. Thank you for your time to join me on the Soulcast. I know what you're doing is inspiring a lot of people, myself included. So yeah, I just want to thank you for that. And can you just mention, you know, exactly what you're working on? Where can people look at or see your art? And just give us a kind of where people can find you.

Sure. Yeah. Well, you can find me on Twitter. I mean, that's, that's where I sort of spend most of my time now. I think Twitter is a great, um, it's a great platform. Uh, just you can search me up, it's @FennDeVilliers on Twitter. Um, I have my, my Instagram page as well, you can find me there, although I don't really post much on Instagram. It's kind of a platform I don't really find that interesting, um, as Twitter for example. And then of course just my website where I, um, We'll need to be updating with, with newer works and expressions, but it's just my name, fendervilliers.com. Um, yes, Sol, I would like to thank you a lot for having me on and giving me a platform to, um, push some of my ideas out there and have this really interesting discussion. So thanks a lot, man.

Oh, you're welcome, man. I appreciate your time, and this has been Solcast. Thank you, everyone at home listening.