Everett Katigbak: Indie Streak

Your side hustle is like your true form. I work a day job, but I make ceramics at night. Like there's something in that compulsion to like do something kind of different and you should somehow honor that and explore it.

First of Kind is a new series about design and tech told by its pioneers. Sponsored by Framer, Cursor, Vercel, and Profound. Everett Katigbak played a key creative role at some of the most iconic brands in tech: Facebook, Stripe, and Anthropic. He now sets out on a new adventure. Going Independent. Everett, thank you so much for letting me crash your home.

Of course. My home is your home.

I appreciate that, brother. When we got started with this project, First of a Kind, I was thinking about who are the kinds of people that I've gotten to work with that embody what I think is the shape of this archetype that have a unique angle on the field of design because To me, the field has just evolved so rapidly and continues to kind of emerge as the technologies shift and as the work itself evolves alongside it. And someone who's kind of ridden at the crest of it in his own particular way is you. You've been able to navigate these very distinctive roles at some of the preeminent companies in software. And I want to just chat with you a little bit about what I call the golden thread, which is basically like your backstory that flows through all those projects. And that gives you at least like some grounding on like, well, how did I end up here?

And where am I going with this? Well, you say that in a very logical way, like I had a map, because being able to navigate means that you have some kind of pathway, but A lot of it was YOLOing and just kind of trusting my gut in terms of like where to move next. And it's not a very linear path, but for me, that was part of what was most intriguing was like, what is calling to me? What are the sirens and what are the beacons and all that stuff? And they're not always the things that most people get drawn to. So for me, I think that's, uh, in terms of navigating, there was, it was less about me kind of moving in a direction versus me being pulled in a direction.

Mm-hmm.

But in terms of what I do, it is like if I were to be able to like pick dream clients or dream projects, it is like being able to tap into this very interesting and possibly overlooked thread or seed or something and like really turn that into something meaningful for these companies. And, and human for, for me is like one of the bigger things. So whether it's a story, whether it's like the brand positioning, all the things that make a company what it is, how do I like really find something more interesting and unique versus like what are the things that checks all the boxes from like a marketing and brand perspective?

I think the most vivid example of this that I remember from— so you and I, we, we first met at Facebook and one of the most vivid examples of this for me was some of your earliest marketing design work at Facebook. And then when you and Peter Jordan started producing these videos of the impact that communications technologies had in places as far and remote as one could imagine and sort of developing this theory, this thesis around like, well, what does communication technology mean to people in like this larger sense? And to me, it was transcendent because if, I don't know from your perspective, if you felt this way, but it was like black and white. There was sort of like the, like marketing design, like the stuff that we kind of have to do to check the boxes to maybe sell ads or to to help the marketing team accomplish their quarterly goals. And then there was this new kind of storytelling that felt even bigger than this very big company, right? Sort of put the company in its place along a trajectory of human evolution. And I feel like that will always sort of be, to me, like an example of how you kind of transform your own role and found an Everett-shaped way to apply yourself in a technology firm. And so when people talk about like things, making things more human, that means one thing when it's just an arbitrary person on the internet. But for somebody who's worked in technology in the capacity you have, what does making something more human mean to you? Like what, what, what, how do you kind of manifest that?

Yeah. I mean, this is a, you're bringing me way back, you know? Yeah. It definitely was like, uh, I feel like that era of our careers and, and in the industry was made up of chance meetings, you know, like, uh, I first met Peter Jordan walking through the hallways and he was a contractor, you know, and he was carrying a camera and I was like, hey, I got some ideas. Let's make some stuff. And similar with our other colleague, Ben Barry, him and I met on the first day and we started something very weird and different. So that, those kinds of meetings in those early days kind of dictated the direction of my career, honestly. But with, with Peter and at Facebook at the time, again, using that as an example, I think everything that both we were talking about the company, but people were saying about us was about scale, scale of the network, scale of the investments and valuation, whatever kind of metric it was. And no one was talking about like the intimacy that you got from the product, you know, and I think that was like a simple, but, but like very kind of unseen way to flip it, you know, because technology was so focused on like the kind of infrastructure side of things, you know, and for me, and then when working with Peter, I was like, you know, what's really meaningful to me about this product is like, now I can talk to my family in the Philippines without having to stay up late at night and like, you know, call them while they're all awake, passing their phone around, you know, and that story was really relatable to a lot of people. The more you can tap into those things that, that kind of connect and resonate with other people outside of our industry. I think those are the things that make what we do and what we build worthwhile, you know, because if we're just talking about the, the kind of backend and the infrastructure of this thing that ultimately impacts humans on the other end, I don't know. I think that's for me, the interesting thing. And if we don't highlight that stuff, then it just kind of gets lost.

So, yeah. And I love that you guys made it explicit. And ironically, the thing that seems to be most scalable is invoking the intimate relationship between two people. That's the thing that's actually bigger than all the technology, that actually drives the creation of that technology, not the other way around. It's that desire that's really palpable. And I always felt like it was amazing how vivid you guys portrayed that. I want to snap back to how you and I met because to me, it was a very instinctive day. At the time, Ben Blumenrose, who was our first marketing design hire, was sort of standing up a marketing design team in practice at a technology company, which was no small feat. And he's hiring for a particular shape of designer. And you came and you presented a very broad portfolio of work that did not seem to sort of fit what we were looking for. But instinctively to me, it felt like we needed to hire Everett because he did not fit the shape of what we were looking for because your range alone created a set of opportunities that I felt like we weren't even considering or thinking about. And that at the stage that we were at, we needed to seriously start to take into consideration beyond what we felt like were the known knowns, the things that, okay, we need marketing materials, we need graphic design assets, we need to do all these things that kind of check the boxes to your point. Do you remember that day? Because to me, I feel like that was at the start of our adventure together.

Yeah, I, I definitely remember that whole process. And one, I appreciate you kind of telling me a little bit behind the scenes. Uh, I don't know if there's a statute of limitation for what's the feedback and stuff. So I think, uh, you can tell me, you can whisper to me like who gave me no hires and I'll systematically murder those people. Right, right, right, right, right. Uh, no, I, uh, it was similar on both ends because for me, um, the motivating factor first and foremost was I gotta get to San Francisco. You know, it wasn't like I need to get into the tech industry or I need to do something related to my career. It was more focused on where do I see myself physically and what city kind of matches my vibe and all that.

Why San Francisco? What, what at the time, like what was the, the draw, the allure?

I mean, at a personal level, uh, my dad, uh, moved here from the Philippines in the late '60s in the kind of Summer of Love days, you know, and he'd always like rant and rave about San Francisco and like he would always bring us here as kids. So I had like very vivid memories, you know, and then also I grew up in LA and Southern California and the biggest thing there was like, I don't ever want to be in a car ever again, you know, and I'm not, I don't see myself as an East Coaster in terms of the weather and all that stuff, but I do like how, how mobile people are out there. So for me, I was like, oh, San Francisco has public transit. So that really was it. But also a big part was the culture, you know, like the cultural density and diversity here in terms of like artists and music and counterculture and stuff at the time. Arguably, like a lot of that has kind of been distributed and moved away from here. But, um, that was the thing that compelled me about San Francisco and That was actually like advice that I got in design school. Like one of my mentors, uh, this person named Joshua Trees, who's like an amazing designer, uh, and I really looked up to him and I was like, hey, gimme some advice. I'm about to graduate. And he's like, don't move for the job. He's like, find the place where you want to live and where you can see yourself. Basically, like he's telling me to focus on yourself. Don't, don't get distracted by like these other things and offers or carrots or whatever. And I always like thought that was weird. Career advice, but also like I took it really to heart and I was like, I don't want to live in Southern California and work in that environment. And San Francisco is where I saw myself.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really sound advice, right? Like where you wake up every day is probably one of the biggest structural decisions you make. Yeah, it is your environment and it flows through you.

Yeah. And I think that for me, career-wise, has been one of the things that in terms of what makes me thrive and what helps me come out of my shell and be a little bit more open is, is like both the physical environment and the cultural environment. If I can feel comfort and be myself in a space with around certain people and stuff, then that's where I start to like dig deep and like come up with weird shit, you know? But, um, if I feel like very closed off or I feel like kind of, uh, combative over my ideas that I have to like really advocate in a way that people don't quite get it. Then I find it's like really hard for me and I tend to like kind of revert inside a little more. So I appreciate you saying that like we need to hire this guy because he's weird. Cause I think that goes against conventional, like, uh, you know, interviewing and stuff like that.

Yeah. And that's, uh, I feel like that one of the lessons that at least at Facebook that we learned were that some of the most contentious hires were like our top performers, right? It was, it was what we did this like retrospective towards the end of my time there. It was often the folks that were shoe-ins that were just, they were fine and they did what they did. But the folks that were the most contentious, where the room was split, ended up being consistently our best people. But you arrive at Facebook and I feel like in some respects, the needs of the company were trying to push you in one direction and you ended up finding a separate path. I feel like part of the reason why I see you as a first-of-a-kind designer is that The analog research lab was not self-evident, right? It's not the kind of thing that you would think, oh yeah, this is like once you get to this stage of a startup, you build an analog research lab. You crystallize the mantras of the company in the form of war posters, and those mantras become cultural touchstones that go way beyond the company itself. They become a thing that gets uttered in the main vernacular of American culture. People don't appreciate that something as simple as move fast and break things is a turn of phrase, I would argue, because of those posters and because of the Analog Research Lab and because of the friendship that you struck with Ben Barry. So I want to start right there. How did that sprout in that soil?

Yeah, the first order of duty when Ben and I both started, we started on the same day, and We both arrived at the office at the same time for orientation and like we go to grab the doorknob at the same time. It was like this weird kind of like awkwardness, you know. Uh, ended up being like one of my kind of closest collaborators and longest-term collaborators, you know. The first thing we did was like when Ben Blumenrose was like, so we're going to form this marketing design team. And we're like, nah, fuck that. We're not called marketing design. We're called communication design. And what we do is communicate, you know. And I think it, it was nuanced, but it was like a very symbolic gesture because it made us feel like what we're doing was bigger than making the number go up.

Yeah.

So I think once we did that, then you started seeing things as forms of communication. And you and I were talking about bumper stickers, you know, and how anything like anyone's ethos and like mantras can be distilled down to like these short statements and stuff. And in a way, I think that's what the Analog Research Lab did in an environmental sense, you know? So Ben started his career at a screen printing lab and he's a very analog person and similar to me, I taught letterpress and even before that I was like a graffiti artist and a tagger and like a ruffian and all that stuff.

I think there might be footage of us like tagging offices.

Yes, there's a lot of that. And some of it was like a little bit of this fish out of water syndrome where like Okay, I'm in a sea of engineers that all, I don't know shit about this, but I do know about this thing, you know, and no one's telling me not to do this. So like the more we did it, I think the more we, we just like kept doing it cuz people were like coming out against it or like supporting it. And I was like, oh, I think we're striking a nerve here. Yeah. And, and that was what was beautiful about that time was the environment supported that, that kind of. Weird melting pot of ideas and things. And the more internal conversation and discussion and debate we had, I think that was actually like supportive.

It was massive. I would argue like, um, in much the way that the way we talk to ourselves shapes the way that we think and the way that we perceive the world. I think you can scale that up to an organization. And at the time, Facebook needed a lot of self-talk. It needed to sort of like confront its own ideas. And sort of get unified around what do we actually stand for? What are the things that matter? And what I love about Analog Research Lab was one, that it was provocative, that nobody was lukewarm about it. There was a strong positive or negative response to what was almost like a propaganda arm. But I also love that it was a bit whimsical and unpredictable. It would sort of appear in places that you wouldn't necessarily expect it to. It would force you to face these ideas that we had just talked about days before at all hands or a mantra. And it was okay with disposing things that didn't catch or resonate, right? Some things had a certain half-life, but some things really stuck around. The war poster stuck around. A lot of the work that you guys did in terms of getting employees to step away from the computers and make things with their colleagues with their hands, that stuff resonated because it made you appreciate that Yeah, we can be hiding behind our machines all day long, but if the whole conceit is to make the world a little bit more social, we in turn need to embody those values. We can't make something that we are not. And I always felt like that the Analog Research Lab was a conduit for that.

Similarly to what we were doing internally, I think we're using that as like, I guess, our testbed for like how we wanted to communicate externally.

It wasn't like a strategic thing, but it was like, it's like a useful sandbox, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

We were like, this is how we feel about working here and what we're building. And ultimately those become seeds for these kind of external messages or like how we kind of present ourselves to people outside of here. So I think that, that was a lot of what, what started it and what was the catalyst and all that stuff. But yeah, I think the more that we, we kept hearing again, like these external messages about like, were like impacting the world in one way, for us, like we almost had like some kind of allergic reaction to those things. And that's some of what the Analog Research Lab was for Ben and I. It was like wrestling with our own feelings about things, you know, whenever we would talk about designing for engagement, like, you know, we'd look at metrics and it was like, you know, I remember the hottest thing at the time was like Google's A/B testing shades of blue and all this stuff, you know, and for us, we're like, Oh, they're doing it because they want to see what gets people to click more and do more things and spend more time. And for us, I think we're like, how do we get people to like live their lives more? Because that's, that's the substance that gets into Facebook. Yeah.

Let's talk about that tension because I think it actually segues kind of nicely to stuff that you're doing right now.

You say tension. I definitely think we're all made up of contradictions as people. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but you know, there's these dualities to things, you know, I'm like, both an anachronist and a futurist at the same time. You know, I wear vintage clothes and I drive vintage cars, but I also like work in these like very kind of progressive tech companies and stuff. And for me, I like that kind of spectrum, you know, because I think with the analog stuff, you know, part of it for me is like conceptually I'm like, these at the time were, I don't know, these paradigm shifting things like You know, I was very drawn towards letterpress because of the aesthetics, but once I started thinking about the meaning for it, I was like, this is what spread knowledge globally, like the Gutenberg Bible and movable type, you know, and now we can't have Parliament without that. Yeah, exactly. You know, and now we, we see it as like a thing for cute wedding invitations. You know, it's really weird how this thing that was like so transformative became something that was like, you know, it's like a very kind of boutique type of thing. So I like tapping into some of that conceptual history and like seeing how the things we're building now fit into that continuum of things, you know, of human existence and communication and, and documenting our stories and stuff like that. So working at these tech companies that are kind of at the, the kind of forefront of things for me, the thing that, that is most compelling to them is that they are infrastructure companies, you know. We see them as consumer tech companies, but for me, there are these things that become these bigger underlying layers that connect humans in a number of ways. You know, like at Stripe, it was the economic layer, but like the economy is what drives culture and transference, like all the way from the Silk Road and like, you know, this Marco Polo kind of transversing that thing towards now, like the internet and all these things. For me, that's how culture and mashups and all these things happen. Part of my rationale towards moving towards this direction as a solo entrepreneur and creator and all that stuff, it's a bit of the pattern of my career. It's like I would go to these companies before they were big or before people kind of saw something in them, and people would borderline like question at the time, like, why are you going there? You know, and You know, when we were at Facebook, one of my colleagues was like, before that I worked in the museum industry as a, at the Getty Museum. And they're like, God, that sounds boring. Like, why would you work at this like college website type of thing? You know, or this like social media, the social media wasn't even a thing, you know? And then after that I was at Pinterest, you know, which maybe was a little bit more legible, you know, cuz they're like, oh, this is this quirky consumer brand, you know? Then I went to Stripe and everyone's like, why would you work at this financial tech company? It's like kind of this weird small company. Then I went to Anthropic, you know, which again, like many people, I was even skeptical about it.

Some in this room, I was skeptical about it too.

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people, you know, for, for a number of different reasons, you know, I think most people largely were like, oh, AI is just a fad or whatever.

I'm really glad you didn't heed my advice on that one. Yeah. Really, really glad you, you, you, you saved me a lot of heartache.

Well, that's how I know I'm striking a chord or I'm like kind of being pulled in a direction is because I I think it's not because I have any special radar or anything like that. It's because I think, uh, it's like I'm, I'm at these weird kind of cruxes of things that are about to emerge. And like, that's what's interesting to me.

I would disagree with you though. I think you do have a good radar. You've got a nose for emerging technologies. I mean, how would you attribute your own aesthetic when it comes to like selecting these teams that you've worked with, all of which have been like formative companies?

Right.

These are not like ho-hum startups, man. These are like formative businesses, each of a different variety. What would you attribute to your selection process?

Yeah, man, I guess I wish I could bottle that up and sell it as a course because I, I, then I'd be making some money as a—

we're writing a book right now, man.

Yeah.

Gold Roman today.

Advice, I guess my advice is— I'm dating myself too, but Charles Barkley was like, I'm not a role model, you know? And like, I In many ways, I think of myself like that. I'm like, when people ask me like, how should I be doing this? I'm like, it sounds like weird and like non-advice, but it is like kind of like follow your heart type of stuff.

You know, it's like this like live, laugh, love type of thing, you know?

Um, where for me, again, I, I find those points of tension, you know, and that's the thing that I'm drawn towards. And like, I see like how much can I push towards the edges of these types of things. And I think that's what people are afraid to do in their careers, you know, either because they're like, I'm fine going down this thing, you know, and like climb the ladder and get towards this role or get towards this thing versus like, what's this idea of like expansion in, in your work and in your career? You know, I think another way to put it is like the more experience that we get, the more kind of like focused that we get. But for me, it's like the— I want to like broaden out and expand and do more things. Um, partly it's because like my, my brain is wired that way. I like— I'm like one of those people that are like, oh, there's something over here, I should go towards that, or I should go towards that. And I'm not saying it's better or worse, but like there are people that can specialize and go like really deep on something. And I think if your brain is wired that way, then you should like play to that, and you should like go really deep and become a master at that thing. But The way that I, I think about it is like, it's not even being a generalist. I, I think about it being a master at being a generalist, you know, because you're able to like have this kind of fluency in all of these different, uh, these different categories that all relate towards creativity and design thinking. But for me, the next thing is like, not just solo entrepreneurship, but it's like, who are we as people on this world that like has this platform and like, what do we generally want to say to people, you know?

Yeah.

And then, you know, as a business, it's like, how do we turn that into something that can sustain us? That, you know, the model has clearly shifted towards like, like working in-house, you know, people are getting laid off, like the robots are taking over, all the things, you know. But I think it's in many ways, it's like a time for us to like think about ourselves and what we generally want to do and what type of value we add towards the world and like this cocktail of resources that we have, how do we leverage those?

I wanna talk about your new practice. 80% of my job is opportunity routing.

Mm-hmm.

It's like in some respects finding, oh, this is a thing. Uh, you should talk to this person. You founder, you should sell to this customer. Investor, you should talk to this team cuz they're amazing, right? Um, you designer, you're looking for your next gig. There is a you-sized hole in this team right here. Right. And to me, like, I can build up my entire life resume on finding these novel connections. And that gives me meaning, right? It gives me enormous meaning to see a kid post a photo of his home, first home, and say, thank you, Figma. That like a company that we helped build created prosperity for somebody out in Minnesota to buy their first home. That gives me enormous meaning, right? And to me, like the the act of going independent is an extreme act of meaning.

Yeah.

But when I think about trying to route opportunities to you, I'm like, I don't, I don't, I don't know whatever it's looking for. Should it be film projects? Should it be startups? I can see how Everett could be helpful across a whole range of teams, but I don't even know how I would sort those. Like, how are you sort of billing yourself? How are you kind of learning your own sales motion? As, as an entrepreneur and as an independent creative?

Yeah, I'm definitely trying to find the blend of like self-initiated and self-driven projects, you know. So like my practice as a storyteller is really the thing I'm letting kind of dictate like what I do, both personally as like a filmmaker, but also like professionally with like the brands that I want to work with. The kind of pivot into this world is not, not just because I think individually, like people need to like tell their own stories. But I do think brands and like marketing have like very quickly like pivoted towards like, oh, we can't do it this like traditional way because that's not working anymore, you know? And like really it's like, how do we get down to the ground and like tap into the people? And like sometimes you buy that through engagement. You're just like, oh, there's all these creators that I kind of like, let's pay them to say a bunch of cool shit about us, you know? But like, how do you build in like an authentic voice for yourself as a brand so that like the people that come to you naturally know what value you bring to them, if that makes sense? Yeah.

And you, I saw on the internet that you, you have like a first client. Are you talking about that at all? Is it, is it a team that you're working with right now?

Kind of, sort of, I guess I'm talking. Yeah. I mean, I, I've been working a little bit with Cursor, you know, I, oh, amazing. And some of that is just, um, They're kind of letting me be what I do best. And, and in terms of that, it's like finding these like interesting threads to pull and turn them into compelling narratives. You know, it's like, in terms of like what, what you're saying with like, what do you funnel my way? I, I tell you like what not to funnel my way. You know, it's like, I'm not the, like the production agency that's gonna go like, help us with this launch and like deliver these assets in all these formats. And like, I'm not that type of thing, you know? But I think it is like some kind of cultural sleuth inside of these companies. And I'm like, I'm not going to give you the expected type of thing. I'm going to try and find something that is like meaningful and only you can own this type of thing.

Yeah. And what's surfacing for you right now? I mean, our friend Bri wrote an amazing piece about internal life at Cursor, and it's like, it feels like a form of like not recruiting, but it is kind of recruiting. But it's very genuine. It feels very well researched. When you act as a cultural sleuth, what are some of the early things that you're seeing that maybe they have not yet articulated to themselves?

Yeah, no, Bri is my homegirl. Like, we worked together a lot in the early days of Stripe Press too. And like, I'm working with her at Cursor a little bit on, again, the gap right now. And this is like the pattern with most like emerging companies and new categories of things. You know, it's like people and consumers and media think you're one thing, you have aspirations to be another thing. So right now, like AI agent vibe coding is the thing and everyone's like, oh, I'm, I could be like a coder and I've never kind of touched this thing because like Claude will code for me or whatever kind of model it is. And I think Cursor is very much a precision instrument for professionals, you know, and I think that like people, people don't get that. Like it is an entry point for a lot of people, but it is the thing that, that kind of gives the depth of mastery for people that genuinely kind of think in that way. You know, I think that that kind of is the difference in like what they're building versus like, and I don't mean this in a bad way, but it's not like Canva that's like exposing design towards a broad set of people. It might even be, it might be more like a Figma in that analogy where it's like specifically for professionals doing this type of thing, you know?

Yeah. I want to like actually like circle around Luis Valdez because, uh, another friend was saying that like when we, when we select main characters, we're actually saying something about ourselves. Which I thought was like, that's my brain is circled around that observation a lot.

Yeah.

It's like when we create a character or select someone, we're saying something about ourselves as the narrator, as the author. And the Luis Valdez project is a labor of love for you. Um, through that same lens, like, what does that project mean to you and what does it say about you and the kinds of projects that you want to seek out going forward?

The Luis Valdez project. Is another example of how like I just have this infinite kind of side hustle, side quest type of thing, you know, where like I have a day job. At the time I was working at Anthropic. I started the film before I was even working at Anthropic. So it's this thing that like kind of has always been in the, the background, but that was equal in scale and commitment towards like the other things I was doing. So I think once I started going down that path, And I don't know, I just saw that as being, it's like the one revelation I had and the advice I give to a lot of people is like, your, your side hustle is like your true form type of thing. You know, I work a day job, but I make ceramics at night. Like there's something in, in that, that compulsion to like do something kind of different and you should somehow honor that and explore it. So for me, this Luis Valdez story, that's about someone that has had a huge impact in the world. but like there's no film about him. There's like, he's kind of very much behind the scenes type of thing. That's another thing that I resonate with, uh, which is also like why I'm starting to do more of my own, uh, social media type of stuff. It's what drew me towards the Stewart Brand thing is like everyone knows about like these quotes that Steve Jobs said at Stanford. And everyone attributes them to Steve Jobs, but they're like, no, there was someone that like planted that seed in his thing. Yeah. So those are the types of figures and the types of stories that I like to tell is like, who are these like unseen figures?

You know?

And when I kind of teamed up with the director of the Luis Valdez project, I think that's, that's when I just kind of knew it was like, I need to like dedicate more of my time, not just to this project, but these types of projects, you know? I love it.

I just think it's one of those, again, Everett-shaped projects that it's hard to picture the world just producing it on its own without you. And my hope is for folks that want to be a first of a kind, that they kind of recognize that sometimes the universe just shows you a gap and you're the only person who can see it and thus fill it, right?

Yeah. Well, a lot of it is I'm just kind of following these things that pique my interest and trying to do weird shit. So I don't know, a lot of times that is what kind of evolves into this thing that like most people didn't expect. And it's not something I expected. And I think that's the most surprising is like, I don't go into these, uh, these things knowing that it's going to be a thing. In many ways, I'm more surprised than like other people. So I don't know, that's the thing that, that keeps me going is like this uncertainty of stuff.

Well, except that you don't have a master plan, even though All the evidence shows otherwise.

At some point I'll have a book that says all these like abstract things like Rick Rubin or whatever. But yeah, until then, I can't wait to workshop it with you.

Yeah, cool. Everett, thank you for this conversation.

For, uh, of course, anytime. You're always welcome in my kitchen and living room and all that stuff.

I appreciate that. I'm gonna have to reciprocate. Yeah. All right, good luck.

Well, thanks all.

This is First of Kind, a new series about design and tech. Told by its pioneers. Sponsored by Framer, Cursor, Vercel, and Profound. Follow us on X, YouTube, Threads, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts. The future belongs to designers who build.