Ep. 101 First Be An Unforgettable Person With Jim Cathcart

Take it, Mark.

No, I'm just listening to you play, man. That's more fun. Whenever you get Jim Cathcart near a Garry guitar, you know what's going to happen. They're going to have a good time with it. Hey, Darren. How are you, brother?

Oh, man, I'm pumped. Legend, legend after legend, and this guy has won everything. They're going to have to make up new awards just to keep him striving. This, the Cavett, the Golden Gavel. Csp, cpae. Mark.

Yeah, I mean, and he's here. You know, we talked recently about ToastMasters and the NSA and what's happening in that relationship. Our special friend today has mastered both worlds. Highly respected, a cool guy. And don't get him started on his guitar. Darren, I can't wait for our friends to meet the inimitable hall of Famer, Jim Cathcart.

Anyone can. A presentation. Few deliver unforgettable presentations. What's the difference? You're about to find out. Welcome to the Unforgettable Presentations podcasts with your hosts, world champion speakers and coaches, Mark Brown. Mark Brown.

Your life tells a story and there's someone out there who needs to hear it.

And Darren Lacroix. And Darren Lacroix.

Stage time.

Stage time, time. Stage time.

Ready for some powerful presentation, AHAs. Let's dive right in.

Mark. He could be the classiest man on.

Earth in many, many ways, right? Multi talented as well, and multifaceted. Let's welcome Jim Cathcart. Hello, Jim.

Oh, great to be with you. Thank you. Both talking to speakers about speaking.

How cool is that in the green room? It just happens.

Yeah.

Wow. Jim, when you had told me just recently, last week about your background and how you started in the JCS and what you did there to lay your foundation, you've got to share because a lot of people, I think emerging speakers think they, well, they could give a presentation and they think it's just a quick jump and then boom, you know, a couple techniques and you're unforgettable. And that is not the case. So, Jim, give us a little bit of your background.

All right? I grew up in Little Rock, Arkansas, and when I was 26. So this is 1972. I'll save you the math. I'm 74. I was born in 1946. Anyway, at age 26, I was working for the housing authority in a $500 a month job. Had a new wife and baby at home and no college degree, no money in the bank and no expectation of a meaningful career. So I just thought I'D grow up and be a nice guy and die when it was my turn. Get out of the way. And then one day, I heard Earl Nightingale on the radio. Former golden gavel winner from Toastmasters International. He was the dean of personal motivation. He was on 900 radio stations all over the world at that time. So I'm sitting there as a clerk at the housing Authority board because I'm an assistant to a man who doesn't need one. His name was Bob Moore, and Bob Moore was not busy, and I was his helper. So I was sitting there just, you know, twiddling my thumbs and reading books on urban renewal, thinking, you know, maybe I can progress up the ladder and become a middle manager someday. But I wasn't interested in urban renewal. And then this voice comes on the radio in the next room, and this deep, fatherly Earl Nightingale says, if you'll spend one hour a day and study extra, in five years or less, you'll be a national expert in that field. If you spend one extra hour a day and study in your chosen field. And I did the math. You know, an hour a day and study in any subject, let's say it's five days a week and only 50 weeks a year. Well, that's over five years, 1250 hours of focused study on one topic. And I thought, well, what? You know, that would even work for me. And I was an average student. I never had been an athlete or, you know, excelled at anything. I thought, well, I don't. I don't want to be good at urban renewal, so what do I want to be good at? And then it hit me. I don't know. A couple weeks later, I want to do what he does. But I didn't know what that meant. And I had two things that would sort of inhibit your speaking career. I hadn't given a speech, and I had nothing to say.

We've seen people make it with that, though.

And so I decided, well, heck, I'm going to take him at his word and just become fanatical about studying personal development. So I did, and I joined the JCS. That was 1972. I joined the JCS to form a local chapter in my neighborhood. The JCS, for those that aren't familiar, is the Junior Chamber of Commerce. And it was started back in the 1920s by a group of young men that wanted to learn business skills and get known in the community. But you couldn't do that until you had a college degree or you were a major person in a company. And a man named Clarence Howard who had founded or was the leader of the Chamber of commerce, said, I'll take you under my wing. You guys can be the junior Chamber of Commerce. So they did that. The JCS proliferated over the years. Their motto was young men can change the world because it was all male at first. So I joined to form a local chapter and they said, we have a program called Leadership in Action, and it's about goal setting and interpersonal communication and motivation and public speaking. Really, I need to learn those things. And so when's our Leadership in Action meeting? They said, we don't know. You plan one. How do you plan? Well, it's in the owner's, the operator's manual, you know, for the JCs, the officers and directors guide. Read that and you planet. So I put it together and we had a little group discussion and it was awesome. And I said, well, let's do it again. They said, well, go ahead, plan it. Well, to make a long story short, in the next two years, 73 and 74, I did 400 JC's meetings after working on weekends for no pay. Wow, 400. I mean, it was like your story, Darren. You know, with, with all the, the comedy clubs and the Toastmasters and everything else, you. I was just absolutely fanatical about personal development. And the JCS became my vehicle because here were other young people that were involved and interested in personal development. And we had a manual and some other tools. And so there were chapters. There were 282 chapters in the state of Arkansas at the time. And this was the peak of the baby boom, being JC's age, which is under 40, and back then it was under 36. So I was virtually every day, or, you know, most days, going after work, home, dinner with my wife and little baby son. And then I'd go to a JC's meeting. I remember when Jimmy was like 2 years old, if that. He had a little tricycle and he was riding around the living room on it. He said, bye, bye mama, I'm going to JC meeting. That's what it was like for dad. But as I went to these meetings, you'd always have to give a report or stand up and do something like you do at Toastmasters. I was awful. I remember one time I was running one of the meetings and our state president had come as our guest for the evening. And out of a few thousand members in the Arkansas JCS at the time, this was Little Rock, Arkansas. The president, David Hale, gave a presentation and I was the one running the meeting. And after the meeting he said, jim, come here. He said, and he's looking for a way to be tactful. He says, you haven't had officers orientation yet, have you? And I said, why? Which means, of course not, as you can tell. And he said, look, let me give you a few pointers on how to run a meeting and how to deliver a presentation. And, you know, I had many embarrassing moments over the years, but I got better and better and got popular and then got in demand. And then I started selling Earl Nightingale's motivational tapes door to door. Quit my day job at the Housing Authority. Then I was hired by the USJC's national headquarters to move to Tulsa, Oklahoma, and be in charge of leadership training programs for all 356,000 JCs at that time. So in 1975, 6 and mid 77, I was the senior program manager in charge of individual development leadership training programs. And I flew all over the country giving speeches. Then after that, I formed my own business, became a speaker and trainer. Met a guy in California who was a college professor, and he said, my God, you're making a lot of money doing this compared to me as a college professor. Let's go in business together. So we did Dr. Tony Alessandro, and we formed a business together. And then I ultimately moved to California, and we merged everything into one checkbook and started promoting ourselves. And one day, I'm sitting in our office in La Jolla, near the beach down in San Diego, and the phone rings. I pick it up and it's Earl Nightingale's voice. I'd listen to his tapes for thousands and thousands of hours. Every time I got in my car, I played Earl Nightingale tapes, much to the chagrin of whoever was writing with me. But I really, really, really textbook, Dictionary style, was fanatical about it. It was an obsession. So I knew I had to reprogram my worldview and my thought processes and to be more compatible with what Earl Nightingale was teaching if I was ever to become successful in the world that he dominated. And I, you know, I figured I'd be this much successful compared to him. Well, I'm coming in for a landing on this, so take your time. This is great.

This is wonderful.

I'm sitting there in the office in La Jolla. The phone rings, and I pick it up and it says, may I speak to Jim Cathcart? That's Earl Nightingale. And he said. I said, may I help you? And he said, my name's Earl Nightingale. I said, oh, believe me, sir, I know. And he said, well, I just read an article of yours that I think would make a good audio program. It's on personality types. And I said, yes, sir, it is an audio program. Dr. Alessandra and I jointly authored this. By the way, parentheses, it was the first ever audio program publicly marketed on the subject of personality types. Today, 8 million people have programs on that, but this was the first ever. 1984. Nightingale said, well, if you will send that audio program to me, we may want to publish it. So I sent it to him and he said, I like it. If you'll rerecord it to our specifications, we will publish it. And in 1984 and 85, Nightingale, Conant Corporation sold three and a half million dollars worth of our audio program, Relationship Strategies for Dealing with the Differences in People.

I hope you got more than that much.

But think of that. In 1974, I was selling his tapes. In 1984, he was selling mine.

That's just amazing right there. Wow. Yeah, dreams do come true, man. That's amazing.

That's amazing.

Wow. Congratulations.

Other than that, there ain't nothing new.

In case our viewers and listeners haven't figured it out yet, Jim Cathcart is an absolute hoot. He forgot he's 74 years old. He thinks he's 27 years old.

He still does. And.

And you go back all those years used to beginning is in the jcs. And why I find that interesting is I get the feeling many of our coaching clients and people who are starting out, Jim, they think they've got to find the next big topic, the next big speech, the next amazing thing to put their stamp on the world as presenters. How would you advise an emerging speaker who gets 10 minutes of time with Jim Cathcart? What do I do to get started?

Jim, let me give you a little context. For the last five years. Now, this is skipping Covid year, of course, 2020, but 2015 to 2019, all.

The way up to the end of.

December, I was, among other things, lecturing.

All across mainland China.

23 different cities, tens of thousand, maybe hundreds of thousands of people, four books translated into Mandarin or into Chinese. I did all these speeches through a translator. In the year 2019, I did 71 days in country on six separate trips.

What many people wanted to know from me is, how do I become a speaker? And they would come up to me and through a translator, they would say, how do I become a great speaker? And my answer always started the same. In order to be a great speaker, you must be a great person. There is no way to be a great speaker. Without being a substantial individual who's making the world better. Speaking is simply one way of expressing what's in you that's of value to the world. So if you want to give the greatest speech ever given, then Jesus would be a good role model because you're going to have to be almost that good. You're going to deliver a speech that's that powerful or famous or whatever. Right.

Wow, Mark, we haven't heard this before. This is.

No, I got two. I got a two star keeper here. Two star keeper right here. Keepers, Jim, are what we have people write down little nuggets. And I'm going to share a few when we're done.

That term popular many years ago.

Yeah, I'm going to share a few of these. Towards the end of our program, if.

You see him leaning down, he's taking notes.

It may have been Bill Gove, but the founder, I mean, first president of National Speakers association, but it could have been someone else. They said, when you're speaking to an audience, if you're telling a story, you want to see their eyes. If you're teaching a skill, you want to see the top of their head because they're writing it down. Isn't that cool?

Brilliant. Brilliant.

Yeah.

Nice. And Jim, when we talk about unforgettable, we talk about creating. A lot of people are known for a single story or a metaphor or something. And you're known for the ACORN story. That's one of. One of your unforgettable stories. Where did that come from? So first, tell us a story about the background about how that I had written.

Well, first off, I owned a psychological research firm in Arizona for a few years and developed some, not totally original, but original combination of material that was teaching people how to understand who you are. And it delved into multiple intelligences, primary value systems, natural values, not learned values, personal velocity patterns, behavioral style, background imprint, preferred information sources. You know, like, if someone says, what's the truth? Where do you look? Do you look to a book, a person, gut feeling, inspiration, philosophy, whatever? So it was really comprehensive and it was called the Inner View. And I profiled several thousand people across North America. I had written a script and recorded an audio program called Rethinking Yourself for a New Era. And that was the content of rethinking. And it wasn't going anywhere. So I worked with a woman named Joyce Wyckoff and she helped me write the first manuscript for that book. And I sent it out to a bunch of agents and publishers and it didn't go Anywhere. So I rewrote it a few years later, and it still didn't go much anywhere except for the audio programs I was selling. And then one day, my business neighbor, who was a friend, a colleague, Spencer Johnson. We had offices side by side in downtown La Jolla, San Diego area. And Spencer Johnson's best known as co author of the One Minute Manager and original author of who Moved My Cheese? And a number of other books. So Spencer and I saw each other every day, coming and going, and our wives had lunch together most days. He said, jim, what are you working on? And I told him, and he said, that's the wrong title. I said, well, what do I call it? He said, call it the Acorn Principle. I said, why would I call it that? He said, well, first off, that story you tell about an acorn that's trying to grow up to be a redwood, which is obviously impossible, you know, it should be focused on being a mighty oak, because that it could do. He said, that's a great metaphor, and you should use that as the title for your book. And I thought, well, you know, if I call it the Acorn Principle, then people won't know what that means. And he said, and therefore they will.

Curious. Yeah.

Pick up the book. I said, oh, well, there's a thought. Yeah. So it became the Acorn Principle and was published by St. Martin's Press and has done quite well worldwide. I've become known for the acorn metaphor. One of the things that I do is I take a little. I think I've got one right here on my desk. Let me look. Yes, I do. I take a little pewter acorn. I found a jeweler that makes these.

That close to this real tiny.

Yeah, yeah. I take that acorn and carry one with me. Most times, especially if I'm going to a meeting or some kind of a special event. And I let the acorn. This is obviously metaphorical, but I let the acorn tell me where it wants to go. So I'm looking for someone who inspired me or someone who needs inspiration or someone that really deserves a profound thank you for something or someone that's totally left out and needs to feel included, you know, so it's just a free floating goodness token. So I go to an event and sometimes come home with the acorn still in my pocket. But one time, I'll give you an example, a real world example, and I'll tell the story in the middle of it. A man that I knew, a very, very successful man from Sherwood Country Club in Thousand Oaks. Where we lived after La jolla for about 20 years. His name was Lane Weitzman. Lane was one of the primary leaders there in the Sherwood community. And I invited him over to my house for an event one night. And while he was there, I said, lane, I've got something for you. And he said, okay. And I said, come here. We found a little private spot. And I said, this is an acorn. And I handed it to him. He said, yep. I said, it's made of pewter. I said, now, an acorn has three parts. A stem, a cap, and a seed. So if you look for a larger, easier example for the screen.

Here you go.

Stem, cap, seed. The stem represents the connection between you and all the people in your line who have ever existed all the way back through time. Good, bad, and ugly, all of them. Their imprint came through that stem into you. They're in your DNA. The cap holds onto the seed until the seed's ready to grow on its own. So the cap represents your parents, your coaches, your role models, your mentors, your heroes, your guides. And the seed represents the potential that still lives within you, but or. And it also represents the potential that will be passed along by you through every act you take and every child you have and every person whose lives you touch and it will endure for all time. So your existence matters in the overall scheme of things. So nurture your nature. I told that to Lane. Well, he was choked up. I mean, he was really moved by that. And later I found out why. He called, and he said, jim, I just got to tell you how much that meant. He said, my wife and I cried about that for a long time after. He said, they were. They were good tears, but we cried. And I said, why? I. You know, I was just trying to be nice and pass along something I thought you would value. He said, jim, I have cancer, stage four. He said, I'm not going to be around long. He said, my company is called Acorn. I guess you didn't know that. He said, you know those little gumball machines, the little red machines with all the gumballs in it in the glass? He said, that's Acorn brand, and that's my company. Wow. Oh, well, he did pass away a few weeks later. That just drove home to me the power of something as simple as that. You know, all I did was just give a little token and did it in a way that I talked about. A universal kind of a principle. Past, present, future, you are part of the chain of life. You know, circle of life. But wow. And worldwide. There are people who I've given those acorns to, who I run into them or I have a phone call with them, or I see them on a Facebook chain of posts and they say, jim, Jim, I still have my acorn. It's right here on my desk. I see it every day. And I think about my duty to live a meaningful, meaningful and valuable life. Wow. How perfect is that?

I'm reflecting on this. I know we kind of want to help people with the art of speaking, but Darren and I also did a podcast called why Knowing why We do what we Do. And on a personal note, there's something you said about how your acorn leads you where you need to go. You said you look for somebody who. Who feels left out. Now, why is it important to our listeners and our viewers? Because while we may have a desire to wow people with our skills and deliver our great messages, sometimes it's the people who feel left out who relate most to our content. And we have a responsibility to, as you said, be a voracious reader. Then it was. It was Brian Tracy said, read, read, read, learn, but master the skills so much and be great people first, then become great speakers. If we can do that, we will reach everybody, including those who feel left out. So on a personal note, that really did resonate with me, Jim.

Thank you, Mark.

You know, be a great person first.

It's not just first, it's be a great person only because if you're a great person, it won't matter if you stumble through your speed, if you're Socrates.

Or, you know, name your great person, you could say and deliver a profound truth that would change the world, and it wouldn't be your speaking that got you there. So go for greatness. If greatness is your goal, go for greatness by asking, how could I make the world so much better, so profoundly improved that my life would be a reflection of what's possible for people for generations to come.

Wow.

Well, I love that you told us a story about how it became the title of the book and how that was pointed out, but do you remember where the original idea came from? Where the original story came from? What was the seed of the story?

Nice. The seed.

Thank you.

Thank you.

The seed of the story was a joke. It was making fun of the self help techniques of the day. What I was doing was I was.

Saying, if you start with an acorn, this is the way I would do it in my species. If you start with an acorn, what are you going to get? And someone would yell Out a tree, say, could you be a bit more an oak?

Right.

But what if its goal was not to be an oak? What if it had greater aspirations? I mean, imagine this. You take an acorn and you say, come here, acorn. I think you've got potential. I'll tell you what, I've been observing you, and I believe you could be a giant redwood. Now, it's going to take some work, but you come with me. I want you to read this book. It's called the Power of Redwood Thinking Norman Vincent Tree. And it will change your life. I want you to start interviewing great redwoods. You need to sign up for this upcoming redwood boot camp, because three days of intense transformation when you get back, you will learn to think like a redwood, speak like a redwood, hang with redwoods and be accepted by them. You will become a giant redwood. And then I stop my little story and I ask the audience, you know, I move one step to the side to kind of break character, and I say, what's it going to be when it grows up? And they look at me and they say, an oak. And I say, yeah, but a really insecure oak wasn't supposed to be an oak. It should have been a redwood, an insecure oak. And then I say, it can't do redwood. But if it aspired to be a mighty oak, it could change the world. So what kind of seed is in you? So that's a powerful moment.

Yeah, absolutely.

We gotta push someone, too.

I know you and I spoke recently, and you were kind enough to read my movie script. And that's kind of how my movie script went, that I thought I had to become a comedian. And turned out I realized halfway through my journey that I'm not a comedian. I was an inspirer. Like, inspire and teacher. That's what I'm supposed to do. So I'm glad I took the redwood course. But then I found that I was an oak.

I love that. And the thing is, along the way, you became very funny. What's the difference between you and a comedian? Day job or night job in that case, you know? Right. Because it's almost always at night. But, I mean, you've got the skills they've got, you've got the material they've got. You can crack an audience up and have them laughing for 15, 20 minutes solid, just like them. Difference is career path. You chose a different path and a much more sane path. It's like Patricia Fripp, our mutual friend and love. Patricia talks about brother. You know, her brother, Robert Fripp. With King Crimson. Well, he's in the world of rock and roll, basically. Although his music's a little on the edge of that, his world as a career path is horrible. You know, the odds of succeeding are just like teeny, tiny, microscopic. Some groups or some individuals make it to the top like he did and have a beautiful living earned from that. But most people wash out completely in that. And the same thing in comedy. Most people, you know, end up as roadkill on the way to the being a Tom Hanks or somebody like that. But as a speaker, I chose this path years ago. My goal was at first to become a trainer, and I did. And then I found that I enjoyed keynotes as well. And I found later that if I had too many keynotes and not enough training, meaning actual lengthy interaction with people, application work, that I would feel incomplete. And if I had too much training and not enough keynotes performances, I would feel incomplete. And I chose a field that has allowed me to earn a very handsome living for 45 consecutive years and to become known worldwide in my niche. And whereas somebody like Garth Brooks can hardly go anywhere without a mob gathering around him, I can go almost anywhere. The difference is he's who's who and I'm who's he. Except when I'm on stage, When I'm at a convention, I've got these big signs with my photograph on them. My name is up in lights. They're celebrating me like I'm really somebody. I deliver my speech, and everybody in the room knows me. I get in the cab, go across town to have dinner with somebody, nobody knows me. So I have the privacy of the ordinary life with the luxury of a celebrity life. So do you two.

Well said.

Well, I appreciate that. I got a question for you, though, because you touched on the various ways you use the skills you have. And Darren and I have encountered speakers who will tell you, I'm a keynote speaker, I'm a trainer, I do workshops, and they identify that particular lane. Consequently, with COVID 19, some of the I am a speaker people really felt the crunch and did not change their business model. So how would you advise an emerging speaker who has already decided, I'm going to be a keynote, that's who I'm going to be. How would you caution or advise them in terms of broadening their vision?

Well, I'd pose a question just to get their attention.

Why should anybody pay to hear you Let that sit there for a second. Okay. When they come up with an answer, assuming they do, well, you know, I've Got great stories and profound principles. Yeah. Well, why would they want the great stories and profound principles? Well, because it teaches important truths about. Well, why would they want the important. In other words, what's important about that until you get down to rock bottom? And the rock bottom is that their life would somehow be enhanced by knowing this, hearing this, learning this, whatever. Okay, so in other words, the value of you is not in the sounds you make or the performances you do. The value of you is not in the skills you impart. It's in the abilities that the audience or the listener acquires. See, the most important thing in a speech is not the speaker, not the message, not the delivery and not the audience. What's left? The room. No, not the room. The most important thing in a speech is the value that the listener gets from it. And that's the only reason the speech is justified. So if you remember that, it keeps you humble, you realize, I'm a vehicle here. You know, I just want the message to come through me to them in a way that they get it and can use it so that later they're not saying what a great speaker he was, they're saying, I can do that. What a neat skill. Yes.

Yeah.

Look at the possibilities now. Right, so that's the thing. That's the, you know, stay humble. Why? Because that's what you're worthy of is humility, not praise. Praise is something you get that's kind of like, you know, the chocolate on the strawberry. It's the strawberry that's going to nourish you. The chocolate's simply going to entertain you as you get through to the meat of the fruit.

And, Jim, I want to go back to the story and metaphor. You just gave us the acorn. Now you had Mark and I laughing when we're just having a conversation and you're telling us about that. But I'm guessing the first several times you told it, you didn't have all those punchlines. And it is all. Wasn't quite as tight and beautiful as it just came out now. And I think a lot of people, a lot of presenters think it's easier. You just. If you're a good writer, it just happens immediately, or something like that. Just tell us a little bit about how you nurtured it, how you improved it as you went.

Well, the first thing I did was I just came up with the analogy of the acorn.

And then I thought, what if an acorn was trying to be something bigger? You know? And then I told that story. And at first, after I Started delivering that pretty regularly. And I was doing, like, 120 speeches a year at one point, so I was really active on the. On the keynote platform and doing seminars, too, but mostly keynotes. Back in the 90s, I would give out. I would go to a nursery and get a bag of actual acorns, and then I would give them out to the audience members. So everyone had an acorn. Then I found that there was a problem with that. As an acorn dries out, the seed separates from the cap, so you end up with a bag full of seeds and a bag full of caps. And so I'd have to glue the cap onto the seed in order to give it to somebody, and that became awkward. And then I found some wooden acorns. You know, some company was milling little acorns, and so I bought a batch of those, and I would give those away, but not to every audience member. And then finally, I found the pewter acorns, and I've been buying those for years. About 100 at a time in a bag. And it takes quite a while before I give them away, because I'm not giving them as generously as I was the others. But at first, I would present it, and I would say something about what it meant, but I didn't have in my head the past, present, future structure. And I would tell that story, but, man, it took two paragraphs to say what I can now say in three sentences. It just got better and better over time. And when I'm carrying one of those with me, like, if I'm traveling, if I encounter, like, a celebrity that I'm thinking of one in particular. I was on a plane, and I saw LeAnn Rimes, and she's a wonderful singer and just, you know, just a great, great performer all around. I said to her on the plane now, knowing she doesn't want people coming around saying, oh, can I get a selfie? You know, oh, you're so great. Oh, I love everything. I've got all your records. I mean, it's nice to know that's there, but it gets old real fast when you're a big celebrity. So I said. I said, excuse me. You're Leanne, aren't you? She said, yeah, looking around to make sure nobody heard. And I said, when you get a moment, I have a small gift for you. Oh, okay. So later in the flight, I looked at her, and she said, okay. So I went over and I said, this is an acorn. And I did that little presentation that I was telling you about. So there Are people like that that I have had the privilege of presenting an ACORN to. And I know from their reactions that many of them have truly been touched by that and it really stuck with them. So, you know, I've given it to mayors and I gave it to vice president. I don't know if that's the actual title, but the second person in charge of the country, Taiwan, you know, I did a presentation of the acorn. There have been all kinds of people. I've given them to beggars on the street, I've given them to fellow performers.

When Darren asked about how the story progressed, you said at one point it was three paragraphs. Now you can do it in three sentences. Which tells me, and hopefully our viewers and listeners, that even the greats like Jim Cathcott will work on a story to hone it down, to keep it tight, to make it better, more concise, but also very, very clear. Even the greats work on their stories. Friends, you got to catch this. Even the legends work on their stories. We talk about stage time, stage time, stage time, about honing your skills and cutting it down. Even the greats like Jim Cathcart do the same work we ask you to do, the same work we do ourselves. Because you want to be unforgettable, you want to keep it tight and you want to make it clear.

I had the privilege of being a member of speakers roundtable for 29 years. I dropped out a few years ago when our life situation changed and we moved. But I treasured still do that group of colleagues and close friends and 29 years when I joined. Patricia Prip of course was a member. But Cabot Robert, founder of National Speakers Association, Bill Gove, first president of NSA and many others like that were members.

We at one point Ken Blanchard was a member for a short time, the one minute manager. And Ken hosted an event at his headquarters in Escondido, California. And he brought in a theater director, Ron Arden, who was a famous speech coach. And he had left South Africa where he was a theater director, came to the US and developed a business as a coach, teaching speaking skills to executives and professionals. And Ken had engaged him. And so Ron's there. And our Speakers Roundtable group, which was only 20 people at its largest ever, we were gathered around a U shaped table and Ron was sitting at the end of the table and we would step up one at a time and do a little five minute story or example. And then Ron would coach us and then the rest of us would coach the person. Cabot Robert, the Founder of the National Speakers Association.

He was also a winner of the Toastmasters World Championship of public Speaking. Like Darren and me.

Yeah.

Little known fact, right, Darren? Little known fact, yeah.

Yes, sir.

And the Golden Gavel.

Yep, there he is.

Golden Gavel. Listen to these names. This was the year that I got it, I received it. 2001, the year before. Nito Cobain, Jeanne Robertson. Going back through the years, Deepak Chopra, Anthony Robbins, Les Brown, Peter Legg, out of Canada, Ken Blanchard, Bill Gove, Tom Peters. I'm skipping over a few. Wayne dyer, art linkletter, Dr. Joyce brother. Dr. Kenneth McFarland, my big time hero. Speaker. Dr. Robert Schuller, Earl Nightingale, 1976, et cetera. Cabot Robert got it in 1972. Wow.

These guys at the wrong table. That's amazing.

Yeah. But Cavett was in his 80s when he was in front of Ron Arden doing a five minute presentation to get coached on stories that we had all grown up on and were considered to be timeless classics. Wow.

Wow.

What advice would you never. What advice would you give someone if they have a story and they want to make it better? They understand that maybe it's good, but how do I make it unforgettable? What advice would you give them to try and improve it?

First off, make it shorter every time. Write it out, look at the words, ask how could that be said more succinctly? And just keep shortening it. And also, so practice it every time you can. Bill Gove, every time I talked to him on the phone or ran into him anywhere he was practicing material. So we'd be talking about the bus schedule, going to the airport, and he would throw in a little story or a little one liner or a little something to see how long it took to get from sound to laugh or whatever it was that he was testing. So don't ever stop testing.

Mark, you said earlier that even the legends do that. And I would. I would even take that one step further because they do that. That's what led them to be legends.

Exactly.

Like some legendary. I like that.

Let me play a quick little tune. This I co authored with my friend Harold Payne, who's a professional musician. Yep, I know Harold and it's my. My concept. He came to the house and we sat and worked on it a couple of times. How would the person I'd like to be do the things I'm about to do? It's much better when you can see from a higher point of view. I would. The person I'd like to be do the things I'M about to do. If you want to build a better world, be a better you.

There you go.

So there's a way, you know, you can take even a talent like that, like musical talent, and incorporate your message into it.

Nice.

And that's a short little ditty that, you know, people can sing along with. And I've done that on stage in China. I've done it. And in Taiwan, in Poland. You know, I've been all over the world in recent years. I tell them, please have. You know, I don't care if there's fruit or water in my room, but I want a guitar somewhere nearby. You go, and a lot of times I will. I've got a contract with Guitar center, an account and Guitar center is in many locations around the US and so I'll order a guitar to be sent to me to my destination, and I'll get one that costs under $500, a nice quality guitar that I can get at wholesale and have it sent in a zipper case with a shoulder strap and a tuner. So I get it at the hotel, tune it up, take it to the meeting room, have it off stage, and at some point in my speech, I'll share a song with the audience. And it may be, you know, I'm doing a cover of somebody else's famous rock and roll song or something like that, whatever. But I do the music and then have some fun with them. And then I set the guitar down, they say, no more. And I say, no, no, no, no, I gotta speech to give. So I'll finish my speech and at the end, a lot of times I'll say, do you want to hear another? Yeah. So I'll go over and get it and I'll play another. One time I was in San Diego and the guy brought me the guitar, and someone in the audience made some smart aleck remark and I said, okay, look, let's make a deal. If it turns out I can actually play this thing, will you promise to give me a screaming standing ovation? And they said, yeah. I said, okay. All the leaves are brown and the sky is gray I would go up on a winter's day I'd be safe and war if I was in la, California dreaming on such a winner's day probation from them, which was great fun. What I do now is at the end of my speech, if I have a guitar there, I will sign the guitar and give it to someone from the stage. Wow. Yeah. But I find out in advance who deserves some special recognition, who would really treasure this, who has not been acknowledged, but ought to be, or who's the hero that everybody just really believes in. So I want it to be a moment of celebration, not just by me and the recipient, but all of us as an audience are saying, yeah, that should have happened. Right. And I sign it, and then maybe the CEO signs it or whatever, and, you know, this person can take it home and hang it on their wall. They're not going to put it in a closet and they're going to tell everybody in the world about getting this from their company and from that speaker. So it's pretty cool. Little token. And it costs under 500 bucks to do that. Wow.

I bet that there's been some tears shed in those moments when they come up on stage to get it. An unforgettable moment for them and for the audience. Absolutely. So, Jim, as we start winding down, we can talk to you all day. I have no doubt, Mark. Maybe we'll have to have him back for some more of the stories.

Yes.

Yeah.

We could do Paul Harvey and now, you know, the rest of the story. Yeah.

And, boy, do I have some rest.

Of the back stories for you guys. We could talk about every aspect of our shared business, the speaking profession.

One of the things you like to ask Jim, to inspire newer presenters or emerging presenters to just know that maybe it didn't always be great for you in terms of, did you ever bomb? Is there a good Jim Cathcart bombing story you could share to inspire?

Well, those are mutually exclusive. They're a good Jim Cathcart bombing story. No, but they're bad ones. Might be a good story, but ain't good for Jim Cathcart.

Yeah, I've had occasions.

One time I was given a seminar, supposed to be three hours, and it was a group of accountants or engineers. I'm not sure. I think it was accountants. But anyway, it was a technical group. Something was going on that I wasn't able to determine in advance, and they were completely unresponsive.

Now, at that point, I had already done hundreds and hundreds of speeches, and I knew how to engage an audience, and I knew what worked and what didn't work across all kinds of professions, because I've had 3,300 different paid audiences all over the world and in every field you can imagine, including the association of Wiping Cloth Manufacturers and American airlines and the U.S. treasury Department. You know, I mean. Right. So I knew what worked. And these people are sitting there like this. I mean, not even like they're watching tv. It's kind of like they're just catatonic. And so everything I tried to do that would engage them didn't take. And finally, at one point, I said, guys, I designed this speech to be about 60% me talking and 40% you responding. And I've done my part, and I think it's time you stepped up. So I threw out a question. I didn't get much of a response. And so finally, about 15 minutes later, I said, okay, we're done. Thank you. And I finished, like 45 minutes early. That's a lot of early. And I went to the meeting planner and said, what is going on? I don't know. I said, look, give them an exercise or something. I'll happily get back up and lead it, but get them doing something, because there's no more of that speech left for this group. So we made it through that. But, you know, I had one time I was sick as a dog. I was in Denver, and it was a big rally, motivational rally, you know, multiple speakers, and I was the headliner that evening. So there were going to be a few thousand people in the audience. I got. I don't know what it was, you know, intestinal flu or something. Just got horribly sick. I called the meeting planner. I said, I'm really ill, but I've got a backup for you in case. But, you know, I just need to be alone today, and I'll see you tonight. And he said, okay. And I, you know, reassured him that I had his backup in place, Mark Sanborn, who lived in Denver and is also a Hall of Fame speaker. So I called Mark and arranged for that. And then I curled up in a fetal position and just suffered my misery all day long, taking some antibiotics that a doctor had called in for me. And that evening, I put on my suit, and I'm just pale as a ghost and looking awful, but I'm dressed nicely, and I show up at the event, Mark shows up at the event, and we're both seated there in the front row, and they introduced me. And I was able to muddle through and introduce Mark just enough to greet the audience a little bit. But, you know, I got through, but golly, I was miserable. And then one more time, I woke up in La Jolla, San Diego. I was at home, and I had a speech that day at the La Jolla Hyatt. I woke up and Paula said, good morning. And I said, good morning. Oh, morning. Oh, my God. Call Tony. What? Call Tony. So she calls Tony Alessandra. Tony. What? Did I wake you? Yeah. Well, put on a suit. What Meet Jim at the La Jolla Hyatt. Put on a suit. Why? Because he lost his voice and he's got a speech. Meet him there. No, just meet him there. So Tony says, okay. And he gets dressed, and we meet at the La Jolla Hyatt. And I look fine, but my voice is gone. And of course, the next day, I got ill, but my voice was gone. I arrive at the venue, and I walk up to the meeting planner, and Tony's right there with me. The meeting planner said, good morning, Jim. And I said, good morning. And I said, I have a problem and a solution. Well, it's obvious what your problem is. What? You, my co author and former partner. So co author and former partner. Tony Alessandro knows the same subject. I was there to talk on Relationship Selling, which is one of my other books. So I told her I want to do the introduction, and Tony's going to deliver the speech. Okay. So they say, ladies and gentlemen, our keynote speaker, as you can see in your program, is Jim Cathcart. Let's welcome Jim Cathcart to introduce today's speaker. And I went up and I said, good morning. And they looked at me and I said, wait a minute. Let's just all, on the count of three, say, oh. One, two, three. Aw. I say, okay, I have a problem. This is me, you know, and I introduced Tony. Tony got up, blew him away, did a great speech. At the end of it, of course, you know, we're driving back, and I said, now you're going to get the fee. He said, no, no, no, no, no. He said, this is my disability insurance. You keep the fee because you're the one that went down. I just got a bonus speech today, and now then they know me, and I'm likely to get other speeches from it, but the fee goes to you. And when I need you, I'll call you. And I've done that for Patricia Fripp. And, you know, Tony and I've done it back and forth and others. But the people that I'm closest to, that's our deal. We are each other's disability insurance policy. Wow.

Ironically, relationship building.

Nice. Here we go. All right.

Well, Jim, as we wind this down again, we would love to have you back and hear some more stories because you, again, you've done it all. And you're such a classy guy, such an inspiration, and so genuine, sincere. As Mark ties up his keepers, what would you say to somebody over coffee? You have five minute coffee with somebody who's an emerging, eager speaker, who is. Let's just say they are a great person but they really want to care about their audience. What advice would you give them?

Got to have three M's.

You got to have a message, you got to have a market and you got to have mileage. The message needs to be something worth paying for, something worth paying to hear or learn. In other words, it's got to be a message that's going to touch them or teach them or somehow move them into in a positive direction because they heard it or learned it. Okay, so that's the message. But then you need a market. You need to figure out who are your people. You know, Is this for 7 year olds? Is this for 78 year olds? Is this for CEOs or salespeople or rank and file? No, it's for everybody. Well then you've got no market. You're trying too hard, you know, everybody needs to hear what. Yeah, I guess you are that wise. So go sit on a mountaintop and we'll find you. Just find a little cave sit up there and we'll find you. Then you can enlighten us. But no, seriously, you need a market. And the market could be like the JCS or like Toastmasters or whoever to get your mileage. Because without the mileage you're never going to be great. You've got to get up there and speak. When it's 105 in the room, when you have to hand out paper plates to give people as fans so that they can make it through the rest of the meeting, when the room is freezing and you have to move the chairs closer together to use body heat as a warming element, when there are sirens and sounds and parties and noises coming from the next room. When you're meeting in a bar and it's dark and people can't see you and there are posts in the way and you have to move around. Like when someone, when you tell them I want a neck microphone, a clip on neck microphone, they say, do you really need a mic? And they say this just before you're introduced to speakers.

Of course not.

I'll hear it all. Think about that. The mic's not for the speaker, it's for the audience. And you said, well, couldn't you just project? Yeah, but by the first paragraph I'd be done and my voice would be toast. So this guy literally in Pennsylvania handed me a radio station desk microphone with a shoestring tied to it and said, use this as your neck mic. I held it in my hand. I mean, good. So you got to have Mileage speaking. When the building catches on fire, when someone in the audience has a seizure, when they just announced and had a memorial moment for the founder having died that morning. And now here's our motivational speaker. When somebody chews out the audience and calls them all children and sort of spits at them and then says, maybe this motivator can do something with you and turns it over to you. You know, I've had all those moments and worse.

All right, so, Jim, if somebody wants to follow you, I know you got a TEDx talk as well. How would somebody find Jim Cathcart?

On the homepage of Cathcart.com is the TedX video. And I did a little talk, eight and a half minutes. That's got 2.4 million views so far. And it's on how to believe in Yourself. But they can find me on Facebook, on LinkedIn, on YouTube, Instagram. Jim Cathcart. I am pretty much omnipresent if they're looking for me. Oh, Wikipedia, you know, I got a Wikipedia page, even.

Nice. Well, Mark Brown, what do we have for keepers?

A few keepers. I love this one. Study an hour a day on your Spend an hour a day to study your chosen topic and in five years you'll be a national expert. I love that in order to be a great speaker, you have to be a great person. When telling a story, you want to see their eyes. When you're teaching them. You want us to the top of their heads. Okay. Do everything you can to nurture your nature. And the most important thing is the value your audience gets. Because we should be vehicles of value. I love that. We should be vehicles of value. Stay humble at all times. Practice your stories in conversation. Right. And to make your story better, make sure it's shorter every time you tell it. I love the three M's, the message, the marker and the mileage. Your message. You must always have something worth saying. Decide upon your market.

Who needs no, no narc correction? Not something worth saying. Something worth hearing worth hearing. Something worth paying hearing.

Okay. That's right. Something worth. Thank you for the correction. I wrote too fast. Something worth hearing. Right. And decide upon the market for your message. You want to talk to everybody? Go on a hill, be a guru. We'll follow you there. And for be your mileage. To earn your mileage, you have to be able to speak well and deliver value under all conditions and with various distractions. When you do that, you're beginning to become unforgettable. My pleasure. Gleaning these nuggets from Your gym. There are more, but I couldn't write that fast. I was enthralled and engrossed.

Darren, thank you.

I gotta add one more item.

Please do pardon me for lengthening this, Darren.

I've had so many people, and I know you have too, come up and say, I'm a really good speaker. How do I get bookings? In other words, I don't want to get better. I'm good enough already. I just want money. I just want to be famous and celebrated by others. Well, what I ask people is I say, are you a great speaker when the room goes dark? Are you a great speaker when someone comes in and announces that the President's just been shot? Are you a great speaker? When someone says, hey, you guys can't be in this room. The contract ran out, you got to leave. Are you a great speaker? When everything seems to go against you, that's when you know whether you've got the chops or not. And I've had all those things happen to me.

One day we'll share war stories, Jim. All of us. Darren.

Thank you, Jim.

Meeting room disasters we have known.

Sounds good. We'll pick a date. Jim Cathcart, thanks for being the man, the mentor, the friend that you are and the leader. Thanks for all you do and many more stages ahead. And thanks for sharing the stories from your miles.

You got it.

Listen up. Follow his advice so you can be unforgettable.

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