Ep. 13 The Story Behind Vince Antonucci's Unfogettable Illustrations

Hey there. This is Darren along with Mark. And I could not be more thrilled to have this guest. Here's a guy who helped change my life because of his unforgettable presentations. Mark, how are you today?

I'm doing really, really great. And I'm really eager to hear from this particular guest because I know the personal impact he's had on your life and he's so diverse. He's a speaker, he's a writer, he's a preacher. He is pretty amazing. And I want you to tell us more about our guest today.

Anyone can give a presentation. Few deliver unforgettable presentations. What's the difference? You're about to find out. Welcome to the unforgettable presentations podcast with your hosts, world champion speakers and coaches, Mark Brown. Mark Brown.

Your life tells a story and there's someone out there who needs to hear it.

And Darren Lacroix. And Darren Lacroix.

Stage time. Stage time. Stage time.

Ready for some powerful presentation. Ahas, let's dive right in.

So today we have Vince Antonucci. He's written four books. Mark, I don't know if you know this story and this is going to be part of one of my questions later on he, he had and please, Vince, clarify this for me, but there was a series done called God for the Rest of Us which was based on one of your books that got turned into a TBN series by City on a Hill and Bible lessons around the World.

That's true. You got it?

I got it, I got it. I'm never quite sure exactly how to explain that. It was really cool and powerful and to just give you a quick background, my buddy Mike Rayburn, who was episode two of this podcast, had moved here to Vegas and he invited me to this church and I went just to kind of. I was definitely in the Catholic realm and this was really strange to me to walk into this church that was looked like a nightclub. I'm like, is this a cult? And Mike Rayburn playing guitar at a church. No, no, no, organ church. And I heard this pastor, one of my best friends in the world now, Vince Antonucci, give sermon. And I came back the second week to support Mike and the third week I'm sitting there and I'm like, wow, this guy, this pastor has this way of realistically connecting the Bible to today. And Mark, you and I, we teach unforgettable presentations. A two day workshop, a six week course. It's part of Stagetime University and we use tools that I've learned from Vince to teach people and that's one of the reasons we got him here. So whether you're a pastor, corporate presenter, entrepreneur, emerging professional speaker, you are going to learn from this guy because he's super humble, but super talented as well. Vince Antonucci, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. I'm honored to be here. It's really cool. I love what you guys are doing and trying to help people to create more unforgettable presentations. So it's an honor to be here.

And Vince is also one of the most coachable people I've ever met because I remember when he first came up to me and he said, would you coach me? And I'm like, how do you say no to God? Like the conduit to God. Forgive me, God's man. But Vince is just amazing and super talented. We even did a writing bootcamp, Vince and I, on how to be a better writer to be able to make it stickier. So, Vince, this is not about me. This is definitely about the talents that you have that you've been given and nurtured. Bring us back to when you first got started and you first went up on stage, whether it was for a speech or a sermon. How did your career get started?

Oh, I don't know how far to go back. So I've always loved writing. Oddly, when I graduated from high school, a friend of mine was the valedictorian, and she asked me to help her write her speech. And I was like, cool. I did not pay enough attention to school to be valedictorian, but I would like to write the speech for that. And then the next year, my sister was valedictorian, which kind of stinks when your sister.

But expectations.

She asked me to help her write her speech. So I wrote a couple speeches before I ever gave one. Went to college for political science and philosophy, took some classes on that kind of stuff, speech stuff, and then went to law school where you do moot court. And so there's some presenting there. And so I had a little bit of experience there. And then in the middle of college, became a follower of Jesus. I did not grow up in a Christian home at all. Didn't grow up knowing or believing anything about God or Jesus. I will save the story for another time. But became a Christian. And so. So during law school, decided, man, I think what I want to do is help people to discover this God of love who I've discovered. And so I transferred to and let.

Me pause you there because I have a little bit of background on that because of you. And your love is research and that's what led you. And you wanted to show other people what you had learned. And that's key for unforgettable presentations. Vince is coming from a place of research and skepticism. Can you please just tell the little mini story of what you were going to do to get your face on the COVID of Time magazine?

Sure, I'll try to keep the story short. But I saw this pastor preacher guy on TV and he said something about Jesus. I was just flipping through channels and I thought what he said was absurd. I didn't know anything. It led me to borrow a Bible from someone I had never touched a Bible. And I realized that the Bible, I thought it would be a once upon a time and it would read like a myth or a tall tale. But the stories about Jesus are always put in a time and a place. And so it would say in this town, when this guy was the mayor and this guy was the tetrarch and this guy was the governor. And I was like, huh? If you give a time and a place, you can find out that really happened. So I being, I guess egotistical, despite Darren saying I'm humble, thought I can disprove Christianity because I could prove that these things didn't happen because you could go back to that time and place and you could find out if they really happened. And so I spent months studying, trying to research to try to disprove the Bible. Unfortunately for me at the time, but fortunately for my life, you can prove it. There's all kinds of evidence. And so it went the opposite direction. I'm finding all this evidence that says, yeah, outside the Bible that says, yes, Jesus really did the things the Bible said he did. And so I ended up coming to faith. And then, yeah, I wanted to just share that with other people. And so ended up becoming, switching to seminary, which is the first time I ever really gave presentations. And so you take preaching class and you have to give some sermons in there. And honestly I thought, I'll never do this, I'm going to do something in ministry. But not this. Because every pastor I knew wore like polyester suits and they spoke behind a podium. And I was like, that's not me. It wasn't until some years later that I started to go, maybe I could be me and speak in church.

And again, for everyone listening, this is about presentations. And Vince's background I think is important because for those of you who are corporate presenters or give the similar high paid keynote speech or trying to over and over again, that's simple. I think the hardest job in our industry, if you call it an industry, being on the platform is to give a brand new one every single week. I do not know how you do that. So you've got to be really good. Any pastor has that challenge. I couldn't even think of that. Mark, your thoughts on that?

Before I answer that question, I did a quick research myself. Homiletics, the art of preaching or writing sermons. So he was mastering homiletics, to go from, okay, I want to disprove it, to delving into it. And Darren, you were reading my mind. It is difficult enough to try to prepare a speech which you rehearse over and over again. You tweak and you magnify and you get it right. But to do that every week for 45, 50, 52 weeks a year seems absolutely incredible. I mean, how does one do that, Vince, and do it well every time?

I don't know if I do it well every time I try, it's discipline and habits, you know, So I. I try to take Wednesday and Thursday and spend most of those days every week just working on it. And so it's, you know, I know. I know some pastors who I'm going to get to it and I've got so much other stuff going on and they're always kind of stressed out and Saturday night they're finishing it up. But I try to devote almost all of Wednesday and Thursday, so, you know, maybe 16 to 20 hours a week to writing a message. I'm working in advance. So I'm never writing this week's message right now. I might be writing them for next year or something. And that helps me because I write it, finish it, set it aside, and then Friday and Saturday I get back out the message I wrote a couple months or maybe a year ago. And I'm reading it and I'm tweaking it and I'm memorizing it. I try to present it or internalizing it, I guess I try to present it without notes, but that helps, like writing it, because I will write it, set it aside in my computer, and during the year, something will come to me and I'm like, oh, yeah, that would fit there. And so I'll open up that document and either put it in or write myself a little note. Might want to include the story about getting lost in the parking lot. It just keeps getting better that year that it sits there. That's part of my process.

And one of the things I learned from you when we were doing the writing course together is you talked about your buckets give us a little insight. So for speakers, I tell you, hey, start a story file. That's what Mark and I teach. But you said this thing about the buckets, and that really struck me, and I think it's a memorable image. Tell us about the buckets.

It's the same idea, I think, but I think of it in terms of. And I think I probably got this from somebody else, but in terms of having buckets. And so I'm trying to fill buckets with stories or illustrations or research things that God tells people in the Bible to forgive others, for instance. And now over the years, there's tons of research that proves you will be a healthier person if you forgive others. And so I love to show research that just shows man God knows what he's talking about. And even if you don't believe the Bible, this is the way you should live. If I'm on Twitter and I see some new study that says forgiving leads to better health, and, you know, whatever, I will say, when's the next time I'm speaking about that? And I'll open that document when I my bucket, or if I'm not, I have. I'm sure there's better ways to do it, but I have an Excel spreadsheet with topics, and so I'll just put in an article in New York Times with maybe a link in the forgiveness file, which is my bucket. And so then when I'm like, oh, I'm gonna do another series on forgiveness, it's been five years. And I open that up and I'm like, oh, thank you, Vince. Future Vince. Thanks past Vince, for putting that in the bucket. So, yeah.

Nice. So you're constantly collecting, and I think if you are giving presentations and you don't have so many different ones, but if you have one keynote and you have an idea, let's just say you talk a leadership, and then you say, you know, I've been Customer service is passionate and resonates for me. You can take the same principle and you get ideas. You throw it in that bucket. You throw it in the bucket. And then when you sit down to actually write it, you've got a starting point.

Yes.

With great content. And then you just figure out a way to weave it together.

Right, Darren? What's interesting here is. And I speak. I want to speak specifically to our Toastmasters, because in Toastmasters, we are asked to give a different speech every time we stand up in a meeting. But what I'm learning from Vince is that over time, you can continually improve your Presentation. If you keep track of what you want to talk about and also are always thinking about connection points. Ah, an experience, a story, something a child says, and your brain goes, ah, I can connect that story, that comment, that experience to one of my messages. You go back through over a year and continually tweak and improve that presentation. And Vince, if I understand correctly, your average Message time is what, 35 minutes is an average message time for you?

Exactly. Yep.

You invest between 16 and 20 hours to get a 35 minute presentation on a weekly basis. I say the numbers again because I want our listeners to understand. Some people think, I know my material, I can just wing it. And I'm curious to know if there was ever a time when past Vince had that mentality, I got this, I can just wing it. And did that change over time? What did you learn? What can you teach us about the process of investing, the journey to investing 20 hours on a 35 minute presentation?

My personality. I've never thought I should just wing it. I've been in situations where I was forced to. Earlier this year I was in India and there was a time or two where our church has started a. I'm not trying to make this about church just as my experience, but our church has started a ministry in India that helps women get out of sex trafficking and helps kids get out of growing up in brothels. And we've rescued 120 some kids from brothels. Brothels. And they're all gathered and our ministry feeds them every day and education. Awesome. But they said, hey, will you speak to all these people? And I was like, I am, and what should I talk about? And they said, tell them about God. And I was so I've been in situations like that where I was forced to wing it, but I've never chosen to wing it. So I don't have a transformation story from winging it to being prepared. I'm just not a wing it kind of guy.

Well, I have a question for you because I literally had a pastor that I was working with who was a member of our university. And he just said, and I just, I wanted to reach through and strangle him. But what would you say in this situation if a pastor said, well, you know, I have an idea for a sermon, but I'm just going to let the Holy Spirit speak through me. And I'm just like, but you could prepare and you could probably do better. What would you say?

Yeah. And just to give clarity in case someone listening doesn't know what that means, the Holy Spirit is the idea that is that it's God within a person. And so it's like God living inside of you to help you do whatever you do. And so this pastor saying, God will give me the right words when I walk up on stage, my response would be, why can't God give you the right words on Wednesday when you're sitting at your desk? I'm not denying that you should rely on God to help you write your sermon, but I would rely on him on Wednesday and then walk up on Sunday having thought through and let God use your whole week to come up with the best possible message to help people.

To me, it just came across as he was being lazy.

That's possible.

He didn't want to do the work.

That's very possible.

Let me remind you, if you're listening to this, we're interviewing Vince, a pastor. But this is about creating the presentations and making your message stick. His subject happens to be God and Jesus, but you just take his idea and apply it to you and your situation. I really want to be clear on this. It's just his subject, but he's great at doing this and been doing it for decades. And I learned from him. So Mark, questions.

Vince, the world is full of individuals who do what you do on a Saturday, a Sunday, a Monday, a Wednesday. We see them on tv, we see mega churches, and we have small gatherings globally. And many of these individuals are very charismatic and they're really good on the platform or on the pulpit. Question, did you ever find yourself admiring and wanting to emulate any particular well known presenter or preacher?

That's a great question. I don't know about well known, but so I mentioned how early on I felt like almost all the preachers I had seen were dressed in suits and stood behind a podium and almost read their sermons. And I just thought, man, I don't think I could ever do that job because that's what this job looks like. And that's not what I'm like. Well, when I did start speaking, that was more or less what I did because I thought that's what you do. And then my wife and I went to a marriage conference 24 years ago. I barely started speaking and there was a pastor who was one of the speakers. His name is Dave Wilson and he is a pastor at a church in the Detroit area called Kensington Church or Kensington Community Church. Awesome church. He spoke and he was funny and he sang songs during, like popular songs. We all knew, you know, he'd be talking about marriage and he'd be like, it's so funny. We don't talk anymore. And I was just like, what is he doing? He's singing, he's being funny, he's walking around. And I was like, that's me. Not that I'm exactly him, but I'm like, that's my personality. And I thought, wait, if he can do that, I can do that. And so it was kind of, in a sense, I was trying to emulate him, but in a more, in a bigger sense, it was, he gave me freedom to be me. There have been other pastors for sure who I think are great and not pastors too, just speakers, political speakers or speakers like you guys, like Mark and Darren, who I go, wow, he's good. And I can pick something up from him. But I think the most profound one was this guy, Dave Wilson, who just kind of let me be me and Mark.

If you remember, when we talked about my episode three and four, it was David Nottage that I saw when I studied the previous world champions, that his style was like my style. And just like that, it gave me permission to go, wow, Mark.

Yeah. You know what's interesting, Darren? I'm glad you mentioned that because so many people we want to emulate somebody we admire. I've had individuals come to me and say, I want to be like you. I said, no, you don't want to be me. You need to be yourself. And I'm so happy, Vince, that you acknowledge that when you saw this particular presenter and you saw his style, you said, you know what? I don't need to be what everyone expects me to be. I have to be me in the way that works well for me. Now, Darren did say he's been supporting and helping other preachers, which means they're those who get coaching or get guidance. Have you ever considered or have you ever used a coach or someone to help you to be technically better on the platform?

Just Darren and going to Darren's boot camps and the big conference he does every year. And so when you go in seminary, the homiletics, as you, as you correctly point out, classes teach you how to dissect a passage of the Bible and that you should teach it. There's nothing, I think literally nothing about how to use the stage, how to tell stories, all of that. My first 15ish years was just me. I never got coach. Maybe me seeing somebody else and going, oh, he does it better than me. I could learn something from that. And then when Darren started coming to our church, he was kind enough to come up to me almost weekly and Say, man, you don't know how good you are, do you? And I, I don't know what you're talking, I don't know what that means. And he would, he would just kind of shake his head and reintroduce himself or whatever, walk away. And I discovered, probably from Mike Rayburn, I'm guessing, I don't even remember maybe from Darren, who Darren was and what he did. And he came up to me again and said, you don't know how good you are, do you? And I said, stop saying that. And like, tell me how to be better. From that point on, I would just ask Darren, how could that message have been better? And he would just give me little pointers of, man, what if you, when you told that story, you had done it on whatever side of the stage and what if when you did this and it was like, oh, I've never even thought about stuff like that. And then Darren invited me to go to some of the boot camps and learn more. And so only officially, only Darren is probably the only person who's ever coached me. Not that I couldn't have used more coaching.

Well, real quick, I want to leave a keeper early on right now, we're only about half an hour in. But you said, tell me how to be better. Six words that you used to somebody who was qualified to help you and it made you better. Please, everyone get this. It's only an ask away to get the guidance, the help, the coaching to be able to build and deliver your unforgettable presentation. And it tells me you were open and coachable because you wanted as good as you were told you were. You still wanted to be better. And that to me is a powerful lesson. You're already doing it. You're doing it already, but you want to know how to be better. And the key is if we can all decide for ourselves, maybe I can do better, maybe I can be better. Let me get the resource to allow me to do that. And that, to me was so amazing because you underwent a transformation. You said, I'm behind, I'm on the lectern, I'm on the pulpit because that's what I do. And this pastor, this teacher Wilson says, oh, I can be different. And then you underwent a transformation. Not so much in going from winging it to studying, but how you presented became different. And I know a lot less about that than Darren does. But you did undergo a change. And I think the lesson there is that we can all change for the better. One, if we are willing to, and two, if we take the steps necessary to be better because we don't know how much better we can be unless we're open to hear about that. What do you think, Darren?

Well, I think there's nothing a coach likes more or a great teacher than somebody who's already got some major skills and has the desire to get better. And that's a rare combination. And so when he said that and asked me, I was like, absolutely 100%. Sometimes he may not like my ideas for jokes because we have a different joke style, but he's always listened. That's what I love about Vince. He always is open. And I think that's another great teaching learning that I've got from him was it's gotta fit you and your style or it doesn't work. Even if it's a funny joke in the ether, if it doesn't come through you the right way, it will be delivered poorly. Now, Mark, I don't know if you know this about Vince, but, Vince, you actually started off when you came to Las Vegas and you did some stand up.

Yeah. When I moved to Las Vegas, we knew, even though I had started a church in Virginia beach and successfully, I didn't know how to start a church in Las Vegas. So I wanted to live here for at least a year just to get to know people, get to know the city, get serve the city before we started the church. So I had a year of not speaking every week, although I think I spoke at 23 churches that year. So almost every week I was somewhere. I love comedians. I love watching comedy. I was like, I wonder if I could do that. So I found out about an open mic place or two, started doing that, and then got invited to a tryout for a real show. I like to say it was a real crappy show. People paid to get in, but not many people paid. The comedians were funny. In fact, several had been on tv, but it was not run well. Nobody with any business sense knew how to promote this show. But I got to be in it for half a year until we started the church. And then I just couldn't commit to being there every week. A couple times a week, I got paid. I got paid. I could barely buy McDonald's for the amount I would get paid each week to be one of the comedians in this show. But it was really fun. I loved doing it and that was a good learning experience for me, too.

It stretched you. So, Vince, one of your ninja skills. Anybody who's unforgettable stands out in one or two areas. And then they work on the others or enhance that one that they do. So one of your gifts is writing, because you've always loved writing. Give us an idea of how you structure or how you look at structure of a sermon. And if you're listening presentation, just insert that word there. So how do you look at structure or writing? What tips can you give because you're so good at that.

Oh, thanks. I think one of the things I do that might be unique, I think it's something you teach. So maybe it's not unique to people listening, but most people who give sermons and I think probably presentations start out by kind of saying, hey, today I'd like to talk to you about and then sharing the topic. And I just, I don't want to do that. I want to grab your attention as fast as I can. And 99 times out of 100, probably I'll start with. Often with a story. A lot of the times, I'll start the story and then leave kind of a cliffhanger kind of thing where it's like, what happened next? And then I might say, I'll get back to that. Or I might not even say it and just make you go, what? Almost a little bit of anger, like, we need to know what happened. And then I'll say, hey, today we're talking about. Which most people would have done at the very beginning. And then at the end, usually I'll come back to that story and you'll be like, oh, man, that story is just kind of further proof or great illustration of what you taught us today. If there's not a story, probably my second favorite way to do it is to ask an intriguing, compelling kind of question that just makes you start to go, wait a second. Or a statistic. One time I started by talking about this is true, that they've done research that proves people who become quadriplegics who have some kind of accident, that they lose use of their limbs, and people who win the lottery have the same level of happiness one year after what, you know, how is that possibly true? Like, one of them should make your life so much better, and one should make your life so much worse. And so how is that true? And just kind of started with that and say, we're going to find out why that's true today. And it just makes you go, okay, I got to listen. You know, and we get a lot of people at our church who you think everybody goes to church, wants to be at church, and is enjoying church. We get a lot of people who are skeptics and show up just to kind of investigate and see what this is all about. And so I believe that they're not that sure they care about what I have to say. And so if I can say something, a story or some kind of statistic, something that makes them go, all right, I want to hear what you have to say, then that's a big win.

I think one of the principles he just talked about that. Mark, you and I, when we're teaching, we call it the suspended story. So there's the opening. You leave them hanging. You either. There's two ways to do it. One, you definitely leave the open loop that they know that there's more coming at the end, or they're curious when you come back to it, or B, you feel it seems like it's over. And then at the end, there's actually more to the story and another point or reinforces. So, Vince, what I'm gonna do at the end of this podcast, after the outro, I have one of your suspended stories. So I'm gonna play that so people can hear if they want. After the outro, listen to one of his examples of one of his suspended stories. It's great, and it was brilliant. And that's the one that we talked about where I suggested, why don't you tell that story from this place on the stage? And then you stay away from of the stage, and then when you come back to it, you go back to that place on stage. So if you're listening, paying attention, that's a technique. Use a suspended story, but do it from one place. So you're creating that hologram in that area. Stay away from that, and then go back to it at the end. You'll look good because it's like, ooh, it's part of great writing, how you use the stage to go with your writing. Vince, one of the real important, I think, thing that makes you stand out because I listen to you every week and sometimes two and three times, is you're so good at illustrations, and especially because you come up with a new one every week. I want to play a clip that Mark and I use to teach, and I don't know if you want to set this clip up at all or give us some insight on what we're about to hear.

I don't know.

I'm putting you on the spot. I don't even know if you remember this clip. But Mark and I love it and we teach it and it's such a good illustration and the last thing you would expect at a church do you want to set it up? Demolish is the clip. Demolish.

So again, not trying to preach a sermon here at all. I promise that. But the sermon that day was about how we all have wrong ways of thinking. We all know this, right? Like, so it's like, I can't be I'm not good enough, or I'm never going to achieve my dreams, whatever it is. And so there's a lot about that in the Bible and about how God can help us to take those thoughts and to banish them from our brains, basically, and focus on positive things. And so the Bible talks about those negative thoughts that just become a loop in our head as strongholds, and how God wants to help us to demolish the strongholds that are holding us back, these lies that we believe about ourselves and about life. This clip was an illustration of God saying that he wants to give us the power to demolish those strongholds.

So when you're putting together your presentation, if there's some abstract concept that you're trying to get across, an illustration is such a powerful way to do this. And we'll talk a little bit more about others after or how your thought process is. But this was just so good. Now picture you're sitting there at church. By the way, the tagline for Verve, church is church for people who don't like church. So Vince is actually trying to reach people who are atheists or don't even care, are not really sure, or just kind of checking it out. So picture this. You're at church and you hear the pastor up on stage walk across the stage to this another part of the stage where there is a black and there's a piece of concrete. So for those that can't, you know, this is audio. Those who can't see, there's a cinder.

Block there on top of a bench, basically. Yeah.

Yep. On the side of the stage. So picture that.

The word that's translated demolish, it implies destruction requiring massive power. That's what we're going to need to do to these lies that we've always believed. Destruction requiring massive power. I want to give you an illustration of this, of our problem. So let's say that this cinder block represents a stronghold in my life. This cinder block represents a lie that I believe. And I realize now that it's a lie. I've always believed it, but I realized it's a lie. And it's like, okay, I'm in for a battle.

Right.

I'm in for some work. And so I need to, like, get ready for some work, and we recognize it. And then you know what we do? We attack it like this.

He pulled out a fly swagger.

I don't believe that anymore. I'm not going to do that. Like, this is not good. I'm not going to do that anymore. And this doesn't work, right? Like, trying to change our behavior. Trying to do that doesn't work.

Okay?

And so we're not going to use a fly swatter anymore. What we're gonna use is a sledgehammer, okay? We're gonna demolish the things that we believe, these lies that we believe about ourselves, these strongholds in our life. We need the Bible said, divine power. Because here's the deal. The truth about you and me is we don't have that kind of power. The truth is that what we have is fly swatter power. And that is not going to do it.

Wow, wow, wow.

Every time. And if you were listening to the audio portion of the podcast, he first had a fly swatter. And what I love also. And you not only come up with the great illustrations, but you deliver them so well. And I love, Mark, the rhythm of. With the flyswatter. And that doesn't work. It's just beautiful. Mark your thoughts.

Yeah. That is one of many illustrations that Vince has used. And I had a privilege of watching some of his talks on video. And you're right, it's very unorthodox. But here's the thing, Vince. You are using what works for you with your style and your personality, which is really cool. In another podcast, another guest, Zhao Zhang, mentioned that style is like cuisine, and you use your own style. And the cool part is this. It does not come across as hokey or gimmicky or trying to just to manipulate people. Because you have a challenge here I wanted to touch on real quick. You said there are people in your audience, as a presenter, as a speaker, who might be skeptical. They're checking you out. They don't believe you. Most of us who are presenters have a friendly audience. We go to a keynote. The audience pretty much wants to be there. They have paid money to come to the conference to hear us speak. So they're much more friendly audience, but run the risk every week of facing people in the audience who are not so welcoming, not so open, and much more skeptical. How does that figure in your thinking as a presenter? Knowing that on any given Sunday you could, or Monday, whatever day it is, you'd have people in your audience who aren't as open to receive. They're skeptical. They're doubting they don't believe. How does that affect the way you present and prepare for your presentation?

And they're actually there to prove you wrong?

Sometimes, yeah, yeah, we do get. Mostly we get people who don't believe but are interested, curious, looking for something more in life and wondering maybe, maybe it's God. We do sometimes get people who have heard about us and church people only church and come because they're skeptical and not open. And we've had some people challenge us and demand equal time on stage. Literally, yes, all kinds of things. But anyway, the way it changes my. My preparation is I imagine that person sitting there and what I'm sharing and what is their thinking? What's their response? What questions are they asking? What rebuttals, you know, would they give me? And I want to try and answer them in my message. And so instead of leaving them going, yeah, but he didn't say this. He didn't answer that question. Oh, he never thought about this as best I can. So I wonder sometimes if I come off a little weird because I'll have almost like a dialogue with myself. Like, I'll say, you know, so here's what God says, blah, blah, blah. And then I'll say, now you're thinking, what about this? Well, this. And I answer that. And I say, now you're wondering, yeah, but. And this. And then I'll say, well, here's the answer for that. And so I'm trying to respond to the questions I assume people have.

Wow, how do you come up? Or what's your process for choosing illustrations again? For us, it's easier. You might come up with one that you use for your one keynote. But Vince has to do this all the time. That's why I wanted to ask him about this. How do you choose?

Yeah, I don't know if I have a great. Like a process I use repeatedly, but I just try to think what illustrates that. What is a physical, tangible way to illustrate this? And I don't consider myself very good at visual illustrations. I think I'm pretty good at. I'm good at metaphors. And so I think I'm pretty good at thinking up metaphors and going, oh, it's like this. I don't consider myself great at physical ones. Every once in a while I think of a good one like the one you just showed.

You had the electric knife. Yeah, that was one of your classics.

Trying to think how I thought of that. So, yeah, I talk about, you know, we can do things in our power or in God's Power. And so an electric knife, the kind you carve a turkey with at Thanksgiving, you can carve with it just like a regular knife or you can plug it in and it's got electric power in it. And so I use that as an illustration of doing the same thing, but with a power not your own. Man, I, I struggle. I just think, okay, what is it like? What illustrates that often I probably bug people because I'll ask other people. Darren's one of the people I sometimes ask. But I'll email people or text people and say, man, I'm talking about this this week. Can you think of any good visual for this?

So you've got a team that you ask?

Yeah. Yep.

Well, Vince, I want to submit to you, you may be better at it than you think. Now, I don't live in Vegas, I live 3 hour time difference away in little old Georgia here. But I've seen some of your work and I've seen you use a disappearing ink marker effect. That was powerful. Were the words dissipate.

That was Mike Rayburn idea. So yeah, that was really powerful. I love.

Exactly. And we used it too, but it was amazing. Now how did you feel about using that in terms of the impact it can have on your audience if you do it right?

Super excited. I mean the reality is, and this is probably more of an issue for me, teaching the same people 50 times a year, whatever, but people don't remember a whole lot of what you say. They remember stories and they remember, I think, visual illustrations. And so, you know, they might remember that electric knife. I remember what that means or, or that disappear. I watched and could not understand how ink was disappearing and just leaving this one phrase on a board whereas all the other ink was disappearing. So I'm excited when I have, when I have a great story that really illustrates a point well, or I have a visual, it's like, ye, yes, they're gonna remember this. And as a presenter, you unforgettable. Right? You don't wanna be forgettable. I'm super excited when it happens and fight hard to try to come up with those or get friends to help me come up with those.

Do you remember how you came up with the sledgehammer versus flyswatter at all? I know I'm putting you on the spot and this was years ago, but it stuck with me. And if you didn't see that video, you can also go check out on vivalaverve.org and your sermons are on the top.

There's a thing that says watch messages or media and then watch messages. And you can watch the last years of services. That was in a series called Tattooed. So in that series is the flyswatter, sledgehammer illustration and the disappearing ink were both in that series.

Oh, cool. If you didn't see it, he has a flyswatter. And I love the dichotomy. Mark, did I use the right word? Go for it, man. That's the biggest word I've had since we started this. The dichotomy of the fly swatter versus the sledgehammer. I would have never. If I ever walked into a church, I would have never said, I bet the pastor's gonna use a sledgehammer today. Never, ever did I have that thought.

Mark, real quickly, you mentioned Vince, a series called Tattooed. And I gotta tell you, I gotta jump on this. I spent years in schools talking to kids about how we treat each other, and the issue of name calling came up. And of course, I have a nickname from 1973 which is still with me. It's called Sour Brown. I'll explain that some other time. But in the whole tattoo thing, you say you weren't very physical, but you actually got tattooed at one point, and that was pretty powerful as well. What has been the impact, in your experience of using the visual, the object lesson, the illustrations? What has been the impact towards your success in terms of delivering your presentation and getting a result from the audience?

The reality is, and this makes sense, but different visuals and different illustrations have different impact. And so, yeah, we did this series called Tattooed, and it was basically, it was that it was like the lies that we believe, the things we. So there's all kinds of research. Here's research again, that proves this is not a Christian thing, is just a social science thing. That proves the reason we do what we do almost invariably is because of what we think about ourselves. We don't think that we think. I do what I do because I weigh pros and cons and I make the best decision. No, you don't. You think you do. But everything is through a lens of who am I and what do I think about myself and how would somebody like me act? And so if we want to change our lives and change our behavior, we have to change how we think about ourselves. That's what the whole Tattooed series was about. Who's Tattooed? You? My dad thinking making me feel like I was worthless, or maybe kids on the playground who made you feel like you'll never be good enough or you're ugly. And how do we get rid of those old tattoos and get our true tattoo of our true identity. And so in the series, I got a tattoo during the message and so on stage in front of everybody, I got a tattoo of my true identity as an illustration. And so on my arm I got a tattoo that says, the one Jesus loves. And so I'm trying to.

So as he does that. If you didn't pick up on this during the sermon.

Right.

Man, he was getting tattooed, which was really painful because you had to like draw it out over four services.

Yeah, that was the bad part.

And was it more than one week too?

No, it was four services. And then we had a little bit left over at the end. So we broke the tattoo into four pieces. And then when we were over, we still had another 45 minutes or something and left.

You got on the news because of.

That local news and national Fox News, I think it was, wow.

Unforgettable.

Wow. The funny thing is, so just to be honest, I thought it was going to have a huge impact. I thought people are going to come to our church because they heard about this preacher going to tattoo and I thought it would start all kinds of really cool conversations and airports and restaurants. People would say, hey, what's your tattoo say? And I'd say, it says the one Jesus loves. What does that mean? And I'd say, man, I grew up with a dad who made me feel like I was unlovable. And I met God and I discovered that I am the one Jesus loves. And it's changed my life to think of myself that way and I'd be able to help people. None of that has happened nearly to the degree I hoped it would. And so just being honest, the payoff isn't always what you hope, but there's been other times where the payoff is bigger than I thought. We did a series of on our need to forgive other people and how that sets us free. We had people write the name of the person who they had never forgiven on a rock and drop it on our stage. There's a story about people who want to stone a woman in the Bible and then they drop their rocks instead of stoning her. And then we. So the Bible says, when we are forgiven by God, he takes our sins and casts them into the sea where they will never be seen again. They're gone. And so we took all these rocks people had written names on and to the ocean, which is a little over a four hour drive. So this was a commitment to this. Not as much as getting that tattoo, but it was a commitment. It was nine hours of driving for this illustration. But I took the rocks, and we made a video of me holding up rock after rock and throwing them into the ocean. And so you didn't see all of them. There's hundreds. And that illustration, I thought that would be cool because I talked about how, hey, God cast your sins into the deepest sea. They're gone. He doesn't remind you of them. There's no guilt. There's no condemnation. It's gone. And that's how we should feel about the people we've forgiven. We want to forgive in the same way God's forgiven us. And so let's take these people, these sins that have been done against us. And we had talked already in the series about we don't forgive them, saying that what they did was okay. We don't even forgive them for their sake. It's for ours, so we can be free of what's been done to us.

And threw them into the ocean.

People were weeping all over the room during that video. Since then, countless people have said, I'll never forget seeing my rock. And I don't know if they literally saw their rock, but, you know, they just kind of made it their rock. The ones they saw me throwing in, I saw my rock get thrown in, and I was like, okay, it's gone. I'm not gonna live my life holding on to this resentment and bitterness anymore. It's gone. And so that. That illustration had way more power and way more longevity and was way more unforgettable than I ever thought it would be.

And I remember a woman saying to you, did you really throw all of them?

Yep.

And wow.

I said, yep. Every single one? Yep. And she said, so mine, if you put it. If you put it on that stage. And she started crying out. It was powerful. Yeah.

If somebody's listening, like me growing up with my background, just real quick to clear this up. Tattoos. Doesn't it say in the Bible you're not supposed to get tattooed? And you explained that to me, so just so people don't think you're not actually the pastor for God.

Sure. I will say, though, Darren, that you are the only person who asked, so truly the only person who had a question about it, but I will answer it. So, yeah, There's a verse in the Old Testament, so Jesus lived 2000 years ago, this is thousands of years before that, that says not to get tattoos or not to get tattoos for the dead. At that time, in that culture, the only people who got tattoos was. It was a religious act for a other religion. Not People who worship the God of the Jews and the Christians, but a different pagan religion. They got tattoos for dead people. It was almost kind of voodooy, kind of witchcrafty kind of stuff. In that same passage, it talks about, like, one of the things it talks about in the Bible is that women shouldn't braid their hair. But today, women braid their hair. Why couldn't they braid their hair? Well, back then, and this is just their culture, only prostitutes braided their hair. It was kind of a sign of like, hey, guys, I'm available. You got some money? And so they were saying to the verses that say, don't braid your hair, were saying, hey, don't do something that's going to make people think you're something you're not. Don't do something that's going to have people lump you in with prostitutes. You're. You're better than that or act dignified or whatever. And so the tattoo thing was in that culture was saying, don't do something that's a part of that religion.

Don't that confuse people, who you are, or that you might be in some cult or something. All right, one more question. I know we got to wrap this up because you got to get going. You got another meeting. I love the story and have always remembered the story that when they were filming. So they filmed a Bible series we talked about at the beginning called God for the Rest of Us, based on your book. City on a Hill came and they filmed this series, kind of like a reality show, but telling the stories of people from our church. And they actually had to hire people to come. So they hired extras to come listen to you preach. I tell this story everywhere I go because it blows me away that people were paid to listen to you preach. And then what happened on breaks.

Yeah, it was really cool. So we filmed the church scene. So it was supposed to be Vince is speaking at church, but we couldn't do it in our actual church services. I think the film crew was 24 people, multiple cameras and stuff. And our building is not very big. Our room's not very big. And it would have just ruined our service. Been a big distraction or service, but.

Intimidated some of the brand new people, too.

Yes, that too. Yeah, for sure. And so we're like, we can't do that in our church services. So we had fake church services in the middle of the week. We told our people, hey, if anybody wants to come out, you can. But most people have jobs, so a few did, but not many. And so they had to hire hundreds, something extras to Come and sit and be the church congregation in these videos. And it was just me preaching segments of sermons that were going to be using the show. And it was really amazing because often most of the breaks, this was over like I think four days of this. These people sat there, but people would come up and ask me questions about what they had heard. Like they just came to get paid. They got paid 300 a day or something. But they were asking, does God really love me like that. And is that story about what happened in your life true? And have you really been changed like that? And it was really powerful. And I think six or seven of those people have come to our church and some of them have continued to come for years now. And so, yeah, it was really cool.

That was cool. Cool side effect to being unforgettable and having God on your side. So, Mark, what are our keepers for this week?

Well, quite a few. To be unforgettable, you must develop discipline and habits like Vince does. Spending 16 to 20 hours on a 35 minute presentation. Also use your own personality and be willing to find out, how can I be better? Use tools like compelling questions and startling statistics to open the presentation to get the audience in. Most important, something that you teach Darren, imagine what's going on in the audience's mind. How will they receive what I have for them? Get their perspective and serve them more effectively. Always, always, always do your research and find creative ways to use illustrations because they may not remember what you say, but they'll remember what they see and the stories that you tell. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Thank you so much, Pastor Vince.

Thank you.

So Vince, what advice would you give to people who really truly want to have a message they care about and be unforgettable delivering it?

So this is probably just because it's on my mind, but my wife is a marriage and family therapist and she just went to a conference the last two days and I went with her. And so I sat in the hotel room while she was at the conference all day. And when she had a break, she was able to come up for 15 minutes and say hi. And then at the end of the day we were able to have dinner, whatever. And so I was continually asking her, how was your last session? She had two big main sessions and then she had six or seven hour long presentations. And so people who are doing the kind of things that probably most of the people who listen to this want to do and over and over, basically every time I wife was like, it was so, so bad. It was so bad. And a couple Times she said it was good information, but it was so boring. And then a couple times she was like, I don't even understand why that person was given, like why that person was asked to give that presentation because I didn't get anything out of it. I think maybe for some of us, I'm guessing for those people there's an assumption if you're marriage and family therapist who's at a marriage and family therapist conference. I'm a marriage and family therapist speaker.

So of course you're going to be.

Hanging on every word I say because I am sharing my stuff with you, but that's not necessarily true. And so I would just say to really wrestle through what is the best stuff I can give and what is the best way I can give it, how can I illustrate it, how can I share? People remember stories, they remember illustrations, they remember visuals. How can I make sure that I am not just sharing a bunch of information? So people go, it was a lot of good stuff, but it was kind of boring. But how can I include a story that illustrates what I'm teaching? How can I have an illustration, is there a visual I can have that will make my presentation at least bearable, if not unforgettable? I wouldn't assume. Well, of course they're going to like it. I just need to get. If people just put me on stage, it will be great. No, there's lots of people going on stage and it's not great. And so how can you make it it your very best? How can you put some more time in, more research, more thinking, more doing what I do and email people like Darren and friends and say, can you think of a joke for this? Can you think of an illustration for this and just really make it great because the people you're talking to need that from you and it's going to totally boost your speaking and your speaking career.

That's our last keeper.

Then.

What's the best that I can give and what's the best way I can give it? Thanks, Vince.

Thank you.

So if you'd like to check out stagetime University, we have this cool community where you can connect with other people who are interested in learning and helping their audience and just helping each other through. We have live calls every week where you see some live coaching from Mark and me and some of our other coaches. So check out stagetimeuniversity.com Vince, thanks for being here. You are such a the perfect example of somebody who's got talent but always wants to know how to do it better. Which is inspiring. Thanks for joining us. Vince.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for the impact you've had on my life on and off stage. Mark Brown, thanks for joining me. Remember, stay tuned after the outro if you want to hear one of the examples of Vince's suspended story. I'll play the beginning and then there'll be a pause and that's where the rest of the sermon is. And then we'll come back to it at the end on that same scene part of the stage. Keep listening if you want to check that out. Mark, thanks for joining me. Vince, take care. Let you get to your meeting and make it unforgettable.

Thanks.

Make sure you subscribe to our show.

Remember to subscribe because if you miss a week, you miss a lot.

If you like this episode, please leave us a review. If you want to get more from Mark and Darren, check out stagetime University where they provide experienced presenters a proven path and world class feedback. To become the speaker everyone is talking about, go to stagetimeuniversity.com join us next week if you're going to take the time to prepare a presentation. Make it unforgettable.

So I'll start with a story.

When a new church gets started in America, it's called a church plant. The idea is you start this new church to reach out to people who aren't already going to church. And to start a new church you need money to pay for the facilities and the staff and ministries. And so you raise that money from existing churches. Typically an existing church will give a church plant money for three to five years and they stop after that time because there's this expectation that the new church's offerings will then pay for everything. And that usually does work because even though the church plant was started to reach people who don't go to church, most new churches actually almost exclusively reach people who do go to church and.

Are just kind of transferring from another church.

And those people tend to come in as and so the offerings quickly go up. When a new church gets started outside of America, it's called a mission. It's like a missionary, right? And the idea is to start the mission you need to reach people. You want to reach people who are people who are not currently going to church. To start a mission you need money and so you raise it from existing churches. But existing churches will usually support a mission forever. There's no expectation that the missions offerings will ever pay for everything. And because most missions truly do reach people who are not already Christians, not already going to church. So they don't come in as givers, and offerings don't go up. So when we started Verve, we had this big church that supported us for three years, and then they stopped because we're in America. And that's what you do with an American church plant. You stop. But a couple years later, after they stopped, I got a phone call one day, and it was a friend of mine who is a pastor on that staff. And he said, vince, I want you to apply to us as a foreign mission. Apply for support, financial support, as a foreign mission. And I said, las Vegas is different, but it is in America. Check your map.

We're.

We're not a foreign mission. He said, yeah, but you are more like a foreign mission than you are an American church plant. I said, why do you say that? He said, well, is it still true that 70% of the people who come to VRVE were not already Christians and not going to another church when they first came? So, yeah, that's still true. He said, is it still true that your offerings don't pay for your bills and that your staff has to raise their support? I said, well, they have to raise.

Part of their salary.

That's true. He said, vincent, you gotten paid yet? I said, well, yeah, I get. I get paid, but not from Verve's offerings.

I have to raise all of my salary.

He said, vince, that's a foreign mission. Apply as a foreign mission.

I was like, okay.

And so it felt totally stupid, but we applied to this church as a foreign mission. They had two of their leaders come, and they sat in our services and they talked to us, and they. They asked for all of our books. They looked at all of our finances from day one to that point. And we had meetings. And then I got another phone call. It was from the person in charge of making the decision of whether they would support us or not. And he said, vince, everything looks great. We just have one question, and I'll.

Tell you the rest of that story later.

In fact, you remember that big church who. My friend, pastor friend, said, man, you should ask us to consider you as a foreign mission.

And two of the leaders came, and.

They looked at us, and they looked.

At everything, and they're all saying like, yes, they are more like a foreign mission.

And if they said yes, they were going to give us $50,000 a year forever, which would be huge. So remember, the guy called me and.

He said, hey, everything looks great.

We just have one question. He then said, we've looked at all.

Of your financials, and there's an issue here. There Is.

He said, yeah, like, looking at this. You give money to start new churches in America?

I said, yes.

He said, and you gave $25,000 to start a new church in Poland? I said, yeah. He said, and you gave $25,000 to start a new church in Ecuador? I said, yeah, not just a church. There's all these kids. He said, and you gave $35,000 to start churches in India? I said, yeah, but it's not just churches. It's churches, and we're rescuing girls out of sex slavery. He said, but, Vince, your church can't afford to pay you. I said, I know. He said, vince, churches give money away. Missions do not. He says, we cannot support you as a mission if you're going to giving money away. We want to support you. Everyone agrees, but we're afraid that you're gonna give the money we give to you a way to start other churches and to help more children and rescue more women. He said, that's all good stuff.

Don't get me wrong.

It's just not something that you can afford to do. He said, we've looked at the numbers. You're a poor church. If you keep doing this, we don't.

Know how you're going to continue.

Like, you might need to shut down. And if you're going to keep doing this, we cannot support you.

But we will support you if you.

Stop giving money away and you take a salary. I said, okay, then I guess you can't support us.

I think two days later, I got a phone call from one of the leaders who had come into town to look at us and everything. And he was so mad.

He was so mad at this committee from his church that made this decision. He said, I cannot believe that they are punishing you guys for being generous.

It's like, yeah.

He said, what do they expect? That you're going to only care about your own people and your own church?

Yeah.

He said, don't they know that you have to set an example of generosity for your church?

Yeah.

He was like, I mean, you have helped hundreds of people in Ecuador and in Poland and India to know Jesus.

And go to heaven. Yeah.

He said, dozens of kids get to eat every day because of your generosity in Ecuador.

Yeah.

And women and little girls are being rescued out of sex slavery because of Verve.

Yeah.

And they don't think you should give your money away. Like. He said, I'll tell you this. I. I am so glad that our committee wasn't standing next to Jesus when the widow gave her last two coins because they would have went over and told that widow that she was being dumb.

I said, yeah. And then it was just quiet for like a minute.

And he said, vince?

I said, yeah.

He said, what are you thinking? What are you thinking right now? Me?

What am I thinking?

They are being tested by many troubles, and they are very poor. But they are also filled with abundant joy which has overflowed in rich generosity. For I can testify that they gave not only what they could afford, but far more. And they did it of their own free will.

Let's pray.