Ep. 15 The Story Behind NBA All-Star, Mark Eaton’s Four Commitments Keynote

We are excited about this. We are about to interview one of my favorite speaker celebrity all stars who I saw him when he just started diving in. He has become in my mind, unforgettable. I love what he did with his story. So Mark Brown, welcome.

Hey, good to be here, my friend.

Anyone can give a presentation. Few deliver unforgettable presentations. What's the difference? You're about to find out. Welcome to the unforgettable presentations podcasts with your hosts, world champion speakers and coaches, Mark Brown.

Mark Brown, your life tells a story and there's someone out there who needs to hear it.

And Darren Lacroix. And Darren Lacroix.

Stage time, Stage time. Stage time.

Ready for some powerful presentation, Ahas? Let's dive right in.

All right, Mark, we talked just a couple episodes ago about video intros. So I'm going to play just a minute here from his sizzle reel. And we're going to also ask Mark about video introductions because he's got a cool different take and tells it like it is. That's why I love Mark. So let's just check this out real quick.

The first thing I learned is that if there is something that's different about you or that makes you uncomfortable, it may be your greatest asset.

7Ft 4, making his all star debut from the Utah Jazz center Mark Eaton.

Who left eat there to help it. He blocks it for eat to block it right out of bounds. Eaton blocks it and grabs it out. What a Play.

B.

It's April 1977. I'm 21 years old. A man walks into the tire store where I'm working as an auto mechanic and he asks me the one question I hate. Do you play basketball? You'll hear the story of how I went From a a 21 year old auto mechanic who couldn't play basketball to an NBA all star. Good position, a little turnaround. Jump above me. When I come and share my presentation with your team. I'm going to share with you the tips and techniques that I learned as an NBA player. How to get rid of that internal competition, that internal conflict that so many of us face on a daily basis. I put my presentation together in a way that even the last person in the last row who knows nothing about sports is going to walk away with something powerful. A tool that they can implement immediately when they leave the room. And to help them understand that if the team wins, they win. I'm trying to catch this little guard on our team named Rocket Rod Foster. Simply the fastest human being I've ever seen from one end of the court to the other. And I'm frustrated and kind of feeling sorry for myself and standing on the sidelines for a minute and taking a break and thinking, I don't know, maybe I can't play at this level. And at that moment, I feel this large hand on my shoulder. I turn around, it's Wilt Chamberlain, arguably the greatest basketball player that ever lived. Wilf grabbed me by the shoulder. He took me out on the court. He positioned me right in front of the basket. He said, let me tell you what your job is. He said, you see this basket? He said, your job is to stop players from getting there. Your job is to make them miss their shot, collect the rebound, throw it up to the guard, let them go down the other end and score it. And your job is to cruise up to half court and see what's going on.

All right. Hey, Mark Eaton, thank you for joining us. Thrilled to have you here.

Well, thanks, guys. Great to be with you.

Yeah, Mark, just watching you grow in your keynote speaking now, you are just amazing and I love that you are one of those rare celebrities who actually got coached in your speaking. But first, let's go back because we just did the video. Now, that's not your video intro, but it's part of your sizzle reel. We were talking about video introductions and you had a different take on that. So what's your take? I know you've seen a lot of other speakers. What's your take on a good video intro?

Well, I think after 10 years of doing this business, you know, shorter is better. We've talked about this before, but when you walk up on stage, people in the audience, what are they asking? Who is this guy? What is he going to tell me? And what could he possibly know about my life, Right? And you've got to answer those things pretty quickly in your first opening remarks as well as whatever you are throwing together for a video introduction. So I think shorter is better. My introduction is literally two paragraphs. Just says, Mark Eaton is an all star. He's foremost expert on team building, business, world Today. Today you're going to learn how to take your life and your organization to the next level. Learn some secret tips, something like that. And then we play a minute and a half of video of me playing basketball. So at least you know, I did something you I'm not just some dog up there. And I figure that buys me five minutes of time with you as an audience, right? My rule of thumb is shorter is better. Like it's gotta have punch. It's gotta have pop. After a while of seeing people on, you know, on stage with a lot of different TV announcers or whatever like that. I mean, I think you can condense it and make it more like a movie trailer. I think it's the thing that I've always used as sort of a model. It's gotta. It's gotta have a wow. It's gotta be moving, it's gotta be engaging. But a lot of them get, I think, in my mind, overproduced. And the bottom line is, when you start speaking, you've got to have good stories and you've got good content. You have to have presence on stage. And I think that's what carries the day, not the video introduction.

Yeah. And you've seen some. You're mentioning before of people who just put way too much, trying to establish credibility, and it's irrelevant to the listener sitting right there right now.

Yeah. With all due respect, they don't care. It's really the words you speak as opposed to what somebody else is saying about you or who else you spoke for. Whatever. You know, I spoke to this company, that corporation. You know, you got all your corporate logos running up there on the screen. I mean, if it's dynamic video, like, there's that lady I lose speeches to once in a while that, like, did one of those echo challenges, and she has, like, video of her repelling a waterfall in, like, South Pacific somewhere. That's pretty compelling. Like, keep that.

Keep that. That stinks.

That one. That's my rule in general is, is after you put it together and, you know, and video producers love doing stuff like that. They love adding more things and more bells and whistles. But I think at the end of the day, just like, if you write a movie script or something like that, you've got to pare it down. You got to get to the. You got to get to the eight or 10 elements that are the most powerful and piece those together and get the music right. And I think that's what's going to give everybody a little bit of an emotional lift when you walk on stage and then you're off to this, you know, to a good start.

I love. We were just watching a little bit of your sizzle reel, but I love in your sizzle reel, you even point out that even if you're sitting in the last row and know nothing about sports, you're going to walk away with your 4 commitment. So I love something powerful.

Right. Because being a sports speaker actually works against me at times. Really. There's not that many great sports speakers, There's a few that have been doing it for a long time. But in general, people are like, oh, athlete. Oh, okay, yeah, this will be good. Because I get that all the time. People say, well, I wasn't really going to come to your presentation, but then I came, and it was really, really good. You know, like, they're like, they're surprised. Like, the athlete can get up there and give a powerful presentation. So, you know, that's what you're up against. You know, people are just generally like, okay, who's this guy? What are they going to talk about? And so you have to overcome that, how you put your speech together and then also in your marketing materials.

Well, you know, Mark, I really appreciate that perspective, because what I'm hearing is that some people think, yeah, they were a car driver, a football player, a basketball player, they were good as an athlete, they were good there. But, Ken, they really deliver the goods. And I happen to know that you put extra effort into preparing yourself to be a professional as a presenter, just as hard as you worked to be a pro as a basketball player. And even when you were feeling down and Chamberlain encouraged you, I'm sure there were times you said, you know what? I gotta get this right. I really want to deliver a good message. I want them to see me as a human being with basketball experience, but with content and value for them today. So you put the work in. So part of your challenge is to prove the average misbeliever wrong. And that almost drives you to commit to being better every single day.

You hit it on the head, Mark. I agree. Because when you've done something great in your life where you've been an executive at a top level, you've had some other mountaintop experience or played in the NBA, whatever it is, you know the kind of work that's required to get to that level. And you have to take your approach to speaking the same way. You know, it's almost. You start at the bottom, you're really a rookie because you don't know what you don't know. And as Aaron always says, stage time, stage time, stage time. That's where you learn. Some go better than others. And, you know, I can remember early on in my career, somebody was like, I had a lot of slides in my presentation, which I used as bookmarks. That's kind of the next. And one guy, I'd been doing it for a little while, and a guy wrote in an evaluation form, like, get rid of about half of those slides. I'm like, that's so simple. And why didn't I think of that? But it was until somebody pointed it out, and I was like, yeah, I don't need this slide. I don't need that slide. I thought those slides were adding some punch to the presentation. Well, a few slides do. If you get too many of them, then they only had meaning to me because they were telling me what story came next. But it didn't impact the audience.

One of the reasons I'm one of your biggest fans is because you came to one of our boot camps early on, and I saw how coachable you were. And I've seen so many celebrity athletes or celebrities who become speakers, and they just kind of mail it in and tell a few stories. I know there's some we won't mention any names, but some that just show up and answer questions and walk away. And it bugs me because they have this huge opportunity to leave a lasting impression, and they're just taking the picture. Paycheck because of their quote, unquote, celebrity status. Why do you think a lot of celebrities or athletes don't get coached when they came from that world?

Well, I think that, you know, sometimes when you retire as an athlete, you kind of think you got it all figured out and, like, when people will listen to you if you're. Especially if you're a great athlete, like you won a Super bowl or something. But it's not a sustainable model. I mean, you might get a few speeches a year. In fact, I was last week, I was in D.C. and I was visiting with the guys at Kepler Speakers, which is, I think, one of the preeminent speakers bureaus in the nation. They said they get calls from athletes all the time, like, hey, can you book me in a speech? What's your fee? $50,000.

Well.

They don't have the resources. They don't know where to send them in terms of, you need to go work on your. You got to have a speech. So people want to hear. You have to solve a problem for the audience. That's the essence of speaking. Not, you know, how many touchdowns you scored or how many slam dunks you had or anything like that. I think they just don't want to take the time that required to really learn how to do it. Well, I got into the business in, like, 2008, 9, which was the worst time to start a new business. But that was the bad news. The good news was that there was no speaking engagements out there. So I doubled down on the coaching and the preparation and. And that paid off. Big time down the road because I created a presentation that I could use for years and years and years because I spent that much time writing it. Wow.

I got to jump on this real quick. Darren, you just said, Mark, you doubled down on the coaching and the preparation because you wanted to deliver a powerful speech. And I hope everybody gets this. Our theme is to deliver unforgettable presentations. And as you're mentioning other celebrities and athletes who going to mail it in, I think the assumption is I've achieved something in my life in sports and people want to hear it. So I was telling my story and that covers it. But you said you got to figure out what problem do you solve. So you're being coachable, you're preparing, and your focus is on solving a problem for your audience. That's a sign of excellence right away. It's not, look at me, I'm an NBA all star. But here I am. I've learned these lessons, and if you apply them to, you'll increase your business, you perform better. I mean, it's a whole perspective that people got to really grab hold of. Because you may be successful as an athlete, a singer or musician, it does not translate to being a professional speaker. It takes the work, it takes the coaching. It takes the effort. And I really admire and respect you for doing that. And as Darren says, you've done the work for coaching and training and preparation. It's part of your DNA as an athlete. And if everyone who wants to be a good presenter will translate that. So working as you did as a presenter, that puts them on the road to delivering unforgettable presentations. Thanks for sharing that, Mark.

I really appreciate that. You're welcome. It's the truth.

And Mark, where do you think the coachable mindset came from? Did it just come with you or when you started doing the speaking, at what point? Or what was the inciting incident that made you say, you know what I need to get a coach?

Well, I mean, I'm not a writer per se, and that was a kind of a stick against me at the beginning. So I hired somebody, a friend of mine who was a comedian and a screenwriter, to write my first presentation. It was pretty good. You know, we spent a few months putting it together, but I wasn't really that comfortable giving it. And I just decided I'm going to investigate more about the speaking business. So I joined Toastmasters. I started going there. That might be helpful. At least I'm getting in front of people all the time. And I'd done television for eight years before this, like, I know how to talk in front of people. Like, that wasn't the issue. But for me, even in the Toastmasters meeting, I'm like, I'm not right in the center. I'm not really feeling powerful when I'm standing up here, like, something's missing. I don't know what it is. And I just kept investigating. So I come to the Get Paid to Speak by next week bootcamp put on by Darren Lacroix and Ed Tate and Greg Valentine. And we start talking about signature stories, and we start talking about stage presence and using the stage. And then I'm thinking, wow, I need to kind of rethink what I'm doing here. And then, you know, you guys told me about the National Speakers association was something I never even heard of. Like, what is that like? And I still balked at that. I came back and was working on my website and all these things you think in your brain you're supposed to be doing. And then one day I finally decided, well, maybe I should go check out this National Speakers association thing. So I did that. Ended up going to a conference and meeting a coach who said, like, well, what do you talk about? And I started telling my story to this person, and she was like, well, I can help you. I can help you find your story and your points that are only yours, that, like, nobody else can copy. And I thought, okay, that sounds kind of intriguing. And so I didn't know it was going to take 18 months or so to do that, but again, there wasn't anything going on in the economy at the time, so it didn't really matter.

Unforgettable takes time. I was gonna try and steal that Wilt Chamberlain story where he came up to me and put his hand on my shoulder, but I tried. No one was buying it that he did that to me.

Well, but you guys helped me with that. You looked at my presentation I was doing, and that seemed to be the most powerful story. And I remember, I can't remember it was Craig or Ed was like, you know the one that said, why don't you put your hand on your shoulder and try and do this? Well, you know, in that little time we spent together, we kind of worked out that little story. And it's the most powerful story I tell in my presentation. It's been my go to thing. That's why you see it in the sizzle reel, because you always want to have your best story in your sizzle reel. Right. Anyway, I just decided I was going to figure out how to do this and how to do it well. And it's scary. And I've seen other people get couched, including writing a whole new keynote, and then are completely afraid to go out and give it. But just try it. My first presentation after I finished writing my speech was at the chiropractor's office, who had a book club on Thursdays. And I said, hey, can I bring my speech in here and read it to you? That's exactly what I.

Stage time, man.

Yeah, the Rotary Club. Hey, can I come read this speech to you for 45 minutes? Yeah, sure. Come on up.

Most aren't willing to do that work and go to the small audiences to work it out in order to get the big stage. I still remember from way back then you telling the story of playing pickup basketball at ucla.

Oh, my gosh.

I just. I still never forgot that. And you were saying, look, it's who you surround yourself with. And I always remembered that.

Yeah. And I think hanging out with great speakers and watching what they do, whether it's through a stage time university or going to NSA meeting or whatever it might be, that's where you learn who the successful people are. And you want to find the ones who have successful businesses that are out there speaking all the time and follow what they do. Because there's a process and there's a plan of how to put a presentation together and a structure that works. Combine that with working on your stories and then you're starting to get somewhere.

You mentioned going to the Rotary Club and chiropractors. And people often ask Darren and me, how do I get started? I want to find a really good audience to start working with. Who do I talk to? I tell them, well, go to Toastmasters. They don't pay you, but they give you a stage. I've done the Rotary, the Kiwanis, the Lions, Junior Chamber of Commerce. I've done the ymca, the Boys and Girls Club. I did everything that was available, as Darren said, to get stage time. But you combine that with the effort you put in to create something unforgettable by being coachable and putting the work in. And that's really, really cool. Really, really cool.

If you can keep a high school audience engaged for an hour.

Yes. Trial by fire.

Yes.

Darren is all about that boy. Right, Darren?

Yeah. When I get a call for high school, I call up Mark and I panic. I say, mark, what do I talk about? What's new?

What's cool?

You're cool, man. You're cool. It's all good.

Mark, what do you think are Some of the biggest lessons or ahas, you got in order to take your speeches from good to great, what were the lessons you learned to become unforgettable?

You know, I think there's a process of, first, you have to memorize your speech, right? Which is just takes time. There's no substitution for getting out there and just giving it five minutes at a time. That's what's necessary, like at Toastmasters, until you get it together. Then you have to learn how to deliver it, which is how to have the kind of vocal variety, for lack of a better term, of understanding the emotion and the roller coaster that you need to take people on during your presentation. And then you get from there. You can start to where you can actually feel it. You can go back in the moment when that incident happened in that story, like, when I'm in the gym with Wilt Chamberlain, I can take myself mentally right back to that day, and because if I feel it, the audience feels it. And then from there, it's just. It's pacing, it's slowing down. Because we all talk too fast, and we listen to the tape later, or, you know, we think we spoke very slowly, and we listen to the tape, we're like, oh, my gosh. I mean, even looking at that demo reel, I'm like, oh, my gosh. I got to take that tape out of there. That's like six or seven years old. I got to put some fresh video in there because my delivery has gotten so much better simply from being on stage. You can't shortcut that process. There's no way to do it. You just have to be on stage day after day, wherever it is, and work on that stuff until you get comfortable in your own skin up there, to the point where you know that you are really connecting all the time. Even as to accountants or engineers who don't laugh at your jokes.

Some do, some do.

I know, but your coachability attitude, like that. You're so coachable when you work with your coach. Or do you record and then go back and sit and listen with your coach or just yourself? And how do you do that? Because I know that's one of the most challenging things people have, is to listen to themselves for improvement and not for judgment.

Yeah, I think I did do that. I recorded a few of them. I played them back. I listened to them in the car. It was very difficult to listen to at times. I was like, mark, who is that guy you're listening to? It's just a painful part of the process, and I wish I could tell you something and make it more fun and easy, but it's not. It's like you just have to do it in order to learn how to be better. Unless you're just a naturally gifted speaker, which there's a few of them out there who can just get up and speak extemporaneously for an hour.

Yes.

And we hate them, which are very few of. And you would probably agree with me on that. Most great speeches are scripted. Most great presentations are practiced. They're well rehearsed. And whether it's in front of the bathroom mirror or getting in front of a school and having them videotaped for you by watching yourself, you just learn. And so I did both. I watched them myself, and I worked with coaches or met with other speakers and said, hey, would you take a look at this? And the one thing about speakers in general is they're usually very helpful and very willing to sit down and do whatever they can to help you, because we all know how hard it is to get rolling.

How did you go about choosing, like, okay, what will be your opening or your closing? Because I know that's where a lot of credibility is established, the connections established.

Yeah. I worked off a basic structure of having an opening question or opening story and then giving people a menu of what we're going to talk about, giving them a promise of what they'll know at the end of the presentation. And then the body of the speech is, tell a story, make a point. Tell a story, make a point. And then the end is wrapping it back up by, of course, telling you what you told them, but then leaving people on a high note at the end. I opted to start with a question. I know Patricia Fripp would disagree with me, but it's worked for me. So I simply just ask a question. Like I say, what do people really want from you? And people are like, I don't know, but it's engaged the mind right from the opening sentence. And then I say, what people really want from you is they want to be taken to the next level. Well, in my first two lines, I've given you something like, it's not five minutes in or 10 minutes in before you actually get a little nugget of wisdom. From my standpoint, I was like, I just gave you a little tip right there at the beginning of the speech. I haven't even told you what I'm going to talk to you about yet. So that's how I kind of started, and that's what's worked for me. And when I went through the writing process. That's just how it kind of laid out. It's not the only way to do it. You can certainly start with an intriguing scene or something that captivates everybody, but you want to create interest. You want to keep great engagement right out of the box and being powerful when you walk out on stage. I've listened to what was that book called? Be Heard now. It was some speaker content in there, and they just talked about standing on stage for a minute and then just taking a moment, not saying anything, and just getting everybody to connect with you and then delivering a line that's simple or powerful right out of the box. But this worked for me.

How about your closing? What do you close with? What is the Mark Eaton 4 commitment close?

The close is that I challenge people to commit to the four actions that I speak about. And then I speak about my presentation my whole time. I'm speaking about a coach that convinced me to leave my toolbox behind as a 21 year old. And he comes in and out of the story over time, but I never show you who he is. And so at the very end of my presentation, you've heard about this coach, you've heard the impact of him in my life, but you don't know who he is. And so I put up a picture of him and I just say, I've now given you the gift that my coach Tom gave me. Take these principles home, get your people to commit, and I know you will see miracles. It's simple. Win, help others win. These four commitments, you now know how to do that. Because when we look back at our lives, most of us, we're happiest, we're helping someone else. You want to be happy. You want to take your team to the next level, take your business to the next level. And I'm pointing to the slide behind me. Commit yourself to others and the rest will come. And it's like, boom. And then I have some music, some like, thematic sweeping, pretty good amount of energy to it that happens at the end and gets everybody excited and you walk off the stage.

And so I know your book is the Four Commitments. This is based on your keynote speech, correct?

It is. And I kind of did my speaking business backwards. I started speaking first and wrote the book later. A lot of people have the book as kind of their platform that they stand on from the beginning, but I was able to kind of get away with showing some MBA highlights, and that at least establishes some credibility for me when I walk up there on the platform. The book's been. I've done well with the book. It's been out about a year and a half and it is based on the presentation with a few more stories, a few more points, and again, it's designed for the user that there's key questions in there and key things for you to think about and some fun stories that get you to think a little bit differently about your team and how you approach your team at work on a daily basis. So it's not like a big autobiography or anything like that. It has my story in it, but it's got a lot of business stories in it as well. So I tried to find that line between telling my story, telling some business stories and. And having good applicability to the audience that's picking it up who might be in management or leadership.

I'm curious, Mark, when you mentioned a book for leaders and business, have you tried, like some people do, to reach a very broad and vast audience across different industries? Or you can find your lane and say, this lane is good for me. I'm going to stick with this lane. I'll find success here and drill down deep in that lane.

I think I started out with the beginning of your statement, like trying to do everything for everybody, trying to find where do I fit, who do I speak to. And my principles are pretty universal. I can apply them to a lot of different situations. But the one niche that I found that's been the go to niche has been the safety industry. You know, like, what's the safety industry? Well, in my presentation I talk about making other people look good and protecting each other. What I did on the basketball court is I protected my teammates. That simple little message from a basketball standpoint, it's really applicable to the construction industry, the mining industry, the energy industry. Two things happen. One of my buddies, Chad Hymas, who's a great speaker, works primarily in safety. He's a quadriplegic in a wheelchair who was hurt in a forklift accident. And so there's these companies out there, energy companies who have to keep all their workers safe. And they bring in speakers from the outside a lot of times guys who are injured on the job, other motivational people to get their rank and file guys more attuned to safety. So that particular niche is probably 30% of my business. And I've been in power plants, steel plants, power generation places. I spent three weeks in Alabama speaking to every one of their employees of Alabama Power like that. I mean, Edison Electric Institute, the American Gas association, they're not sexy. And a Lot of places you go to. Like, I just signed a deal last week for nine speeches next year with a power company, an energy company out of South Dakota that has offices in seven different states. Now, I never would have, you know, the National Safety Council, The VPPA programs, the811.gov programs, which is all utility companies and things like that. It's a gift that just keeps on giving. And so I created a separate one sheet that's just about safety. I've done like 200 safety presentations. It's not something I started out with, but once I found out about it and found out my message resonated well with those guys. It became a pretty cool thing. One of my first gigs was 14 speeches in four days to Westar Energy in Kansas. They did a safety tour all throughout the state of Kansas and Missouri.

Wow.

And I was in a truck with these guys for four days doing sometimes three speeches a day, which, like.

Yeah, I know that.

And it was everything from junior college to the Elks Lodge to every venue you could think of. I think it's not, again, like, it's not the prettiest places or most beautiful venues, but. But they have the budgets and they need the help, and they're grateful to have somebody come in and share a different type of message that gets their guys to think better about paying attention to each other when they're out there on the line or in the steel mill. Wow.

Two quick comments. One, OSHA must love you. The Occupation Safety Hazard Administration, they must love you. And number two, you kind of blew by a good point, Mark, when you said it almost evolved for you and told you, here I am. Take advantage. And it's important when you see your gift and your presentation, as it becomes more unforgettable, the doors will open and can point you in a good direction. These people need what you have. You must serve them well. And you saw that, you caught it, and you put the work in. I mean, three talks a day, 14 talks, four days, is physically exhausting. But the value you provide for your audiences, that's what makes you unforgettable. And that's why they keep coming back. That's fantastic.

That's really great. And you never know where it's going to go. I was in Acapulco last week. I spoke to 2,000 mining executives from Mexico, Canada, and South America on the same subject of safety, which my same presentation says, a little bend towards safety. I mean, you just never know who's going to call next. I'm like, Acapulco really Okay.

Yeah, we feel so bad for you, Mark, but let us know. Let us know when you get your first nuclear power plant.

Okay, Well, I have one of those, but you get to go to a place like Acapulco. But I also go to Dubuque.

Been there.

South Dakota.

In February.

Yeah.

And this goes back to January.

Yeah.

This goes back to what you said, too, about especially, like, celebrity speakers first figuring out, okay, what's the problem that you help solve? And I love that you just got out there and you started doing it, and then all of a sudden that problem got clearer and clearer, that you had a niche that no one could touch, what you're doing and how you're doing it, especially with the credibility that you have.

Yeah, well, thank you. Like I say, I didn't start that out either, but I love that kind of stuff. I love anything kind of blue collar. And one day I did one for the Specialized Carriers and Rigging Association. So if you need your hotel moved down the street or your nuclear reactor removed or some giant boulder moved across town, like, these are the guys you call. Like, these are really geeks in the world of moving really big stuff, logistics guys. It's like, it just cracks me up. I'm like, you guys do what? Sometimes when people get on the phone and they start telling me what they do and what their associations about, I'm like, okay, can you tell me that one more time, please? Like, it's just fascinating and there's no end to it. And I watch my speaker buddies out there, you know, on Facebook and stuff, or LinkedIn, and they're speaking to organizations I've never even heard of. And, you know, and I've been doing this a long time. And so it's a vast opportunity out there in terms of the types of groups that bring speakers in. You know, you think you have a handle on it, and then you start digging a little bit more and you're like, wow, there's a whole other encyclopedia full of associations that I don't even know about.

You know, Mark, you mentioned speaker buddies, you mentioned Chad and others. You mentioned Darren and Ed and Craig, other world champions.

Mark Brown, thank you.

I appreciate that. But did you have any presenters whom you would admire from afar, who you wanted to emulate, became that sort of role model? You said, I want to learn to be as good as they are. I want to learn their techniques. Who can you think of who, when you first got started, were your role model?

I think when I first got started, there's a couple guys here, local To Utah. Dan Clark has been a speaker for a long, long time. And Chad Hymas, who is an amazing business guy. He speaks probably 200 times a year. I mean, way more than I would ever want to do. I do, like, 50 to 60 presentations. I'm really happy with that. But he is an amazing marketing machine. He's an amazing speaker. He has amazing story. And so I watched him a few times on stage, and I watched how he worked with the audience and how he told stories to the audience and those two guys. And Dan's been doing it since the 70s. He's an amazing speaker. His ability to tell stories and take an audience on a ride were the two guys that stood out most to me because they were here locally, and they both were willing to meet with me and sit down with me, and I would drive to their house and say, okay, this is what I'm thinking about. This is where I'm at with my coaching and stuff like that. What else can you tell me? And there are always a wealth of information. Those are probably the two guys that made the biggest difference to me early on.

Mentors made a difference. Does that mean you've been called upon to mentor others as well who are new and emerging speakers?

Yeah, frequently I'll have people pull me aside and say, hey, how do I get started? What do I do? I've referred many people to the coach that I used to work with, and she's helping a few others developed some killer keynotes. And it's just what we do. And I think it goes back to the National Speakers Association's motto is let's make the pie bigger. There's plenty of work out there for everybody. How can I help you figure out what your niche is and where you need to go? And I send a lot of people to Stagetown University or tell them about it, because people are just trying to get started. I'm like, you're looking for something that's affordable, that can get you rolling and help you understand what the speaking business is about. Go see my buddy Darren down and then Mark down in Las Vegas, you know, and spend some time with them. Because I think you guys provide a valuable service for people that are trying to figure it out and get rolling, or people are just trying to maybe take a different twist to their speaking business. So there's a lot of. There's a lot of great people out there. That's the name of the game, I think.

And I know you started NSA PEG for celebrities or sports celebrities. Is that correct?

Well, that was Ruby Newell, Actually, it started that, but, yeah, I've been a part of it. Yes.

And so you help other celebrities. What kind of advice do you give to them? Because it's different. It's a different set of challenges that you have to get people to, like, look past, you know, the celebrity and to the message. I'm just curious.

I tell them to hire a coach. I said, don't waste your time. You know, I was talking to a former baseball player who was a Golden Glove winner, big name in baseball, and he's just trying to market himself and put his name out there. And his website's got, you know, I do appearances, I do schools, I do speeches, I do this, I do that. And I'm like, all right, but what's your message? Like, what problem do you solve with your message? Like, how are you going to help my business? And I tell them they've got to come from that perspective. It's not about. I mean, and this guy's got all the accolades you could ever want in terms of his career. I didn't find anything on his front page of the website that caused me to say, tell me more. So you have to come from that perspective. You have to come from a buyer's perspective when you're putting something together. And that's why I counsel them to find a coach, find a speechwriter, find somebody that can sit down and mold your story into a great speech. Because it's not just about getting up there and telling a few stories about your sports career. It's about what are the powerful lessons? And it can't be too many of them either. You can't have. Like, when I wrote my first speech, I remember my coach asking me, mark, how many points do you have in your presentation? I don't know. Why don't you count them? And 35 separate points.

Awesome. Nice. That's awesome.

That's great. Most people can remember four to seven things I said. Oh.

Mark, do you have any stories of either testimonials or people came up to you after a speech with maybe sincerity or tears in their eyes, or you got an email after the fact where you knew for that person you were unforgettable?

Yeah. My favorite story about that is when I was just getting rolling, I did a speech for the Salt Lake County Health Department. So this is all the people involved in county health. Everybody from restaurant inspectors to public health to doctors and everybody else that would be underneath that system, water quality, etc. So they've been there all day at this seminar. And I Was a closing speaker from like 3:30 to 4:30. And so I get up there and I'm giving it my all and doing everything. Well, as soon as I finished, the entire audience got up and left the room. Well, they were going home, right? They'd been there all day. They lived close by. And they're like, that's the day, you know, this is their work day for them. But as a speaker on stage, like, where's everybody going? You know, like, I have CDs to sell. So I'm standing there, you know, after everybody goes like blowing by me out the door to like. They didn't even stop and take pictures or anything. Like, I'm out of here. And so as a speaker, like, boy, I think maybe I didn't do a very good job today or something. I'm picking up my stuff, closing my laptop up, and there's one woman kind of wandering around the back of the room. So I'm just kind of putting my stuff together. And I just saw her out of the corner of my eye. I didn't really pay attention to her. And it's just about as I'm ready to zip up my backpack and head out the door, she comes over to me and she says no. She said, I have to tell you something. She said, I had to make a really big decision in my life today. She said, listen to your story. Really helped solidify it for me. I know exactly what I need to do now. I'm like, whoa, boom. Okay. That's why I was here today. And so the other 399 people are there. I don't know. But for that woman, it was like that was a difference maker for her. And it's those little stories like that. And I've had other instances like that. And I actually put out evaluation forms on tables and asked for people for feedback. Because I do hear that that really helped me help me refocus. It really helped me prioritize what I need to do next. Those are the kinds of little testimonial tidbits or feedback that to keep you rolling where you know you're hitting the sweet spot.

That is fantastic. Now, Mark, I gotta ask this question because you've told us all the work you've put in to get where you need to be. You've got the book written, we invest hours and hours. You know, your talk up and down. Your niche audience is there from the outside looking in. Your world seems pretty cool right now. You know what you're doing and you're in line. But what do you do to stay sharp, to keep improving, to keep tweaking? Any advice to our listeners that when you get to a certain level, there's still more you can do? And what do you do to keep sharp?

I think I still go back and review my presentations. I watch myself on stage. I've spent a lot more time slowing down. You know, when I first started speaking, my speaking coach said, tell me a story like I'm in kindergarten. Tell it to me that slowly, like you're reading a book to a child. I'm like, well, that's kind of. That's kind of immature. But the more I did it, the more I got it, so I can slow down and really deliver a point. And it takes time and experience to figure out which point that is. And the fascinating part about it is on different days, different things in your presentation pop up as being important on that point, particular day, which I've always found that very interesting, I'm like, well, why does that. Why did that line resonate so much today? Like, I've said that line 10,000 times. We wrote the speech with every line having a meaning. Like, there's no throwaway stuff or schlock in the speech. Right. When we put it together, every line leads you to the next thing. And every line on its own is. Can be pretty powerful. So I think that's what I've learned over time, is that you've never reached perfection when it comes to delivery. You're always learning how to do that better. Maybe there's something you can do slightly differently in terms of improving where you stand, Getting quieter on stage. I know, Darren. Both you guys talk a lot about that, about. Don't be running all over the stage. Like, I stand in one space. I have a couple little things I do. For the most part, I stay in a pretty small area because that's what commands the attention of the audience. You know, my audience is, for the most part, they're not fiddling around, they're not on their laptops, they're not messing on their phones. Like, they're pretty locked into what we're talking about. And so that's what I. That's kind of my litmus test out there. And you can't always get that perfect. It depends. A lot of it depends on what else is going on in their world that day. Right. A lot of times, and it's not necessarily about you. And so I think the more I get into my own story and really feel what I'm doing up there, the audience just follows Suit. And I've learned to focus on the people that are staring intently at you and taking notes, as opposed to the one person in the 37th row that gets up and goes to the bathroom or something. Where are they going?

What did I do?

That takes practice too.

You've learned a lot of lessons along the way. I just admire when you came here to Vegas recently for a keynote, I was thrilled to help you selling your books because I love studying.

You guys killed it.

I love studying how other people do it. And like the evaluation forms was just a reminder to me. It's like, duh, why did I stop doing what works? But I loved Mark, seeing how the throngs of people just lined up to get your book, take pictures with you, and you just have such humility. I think that's one of the reasons I love you so much. Just because that. How do you stay humble when everybody wants your autograph and picture taken with you?

Well, I mean, I appreciate that people want to do that. And I looked at that. It was kind of an interesting evolution because, you know, when you're 7 foot 4, everybody wants to take a picture with you. So I started looking at that and saying, well, okay, if you're going to take a picture with me, is there a way that I can kind of capitalize that on the back of the room? And I don't mind taking. But I started out with selling CDs of my speech, and then I had a little poster with a basketball shot that I kind of made into like one of those accessories style kind of posters. And I just signed up and started selling those for like two, for 15 bucks or something. I'm like, well, if I'm going to be here and take pictures with 200 people, at least some of them are going to buy some. Buy some stuff. And it's also an opportunity to hear afterwards the impact you had on the audience because they'll share a story with you while you're taking a picture. That's kind of how it started in terms of being humble. I don't know, it's just kind of who I am. I mean, I've never really had a big ego and I was serious about my job as a basketball player, but I never let it, you know, because of the background I came from, I guess I never really got all caught up in the quote unquote hype of being a professional athlete. And so it's kind of a combination of that and like, well, if everybody wants a picture, then, hey, why don't you have a Pick a book and a picture at the same time. Good marketing.

Good marketing.

Yeah. I've never really seen this before except like at the Toastmasters convention. But here the audience, they literally had stanchions for the line to be able to go and take pictures with him. I was like, nice.

Yeah, that was a good. We sold like four or five cases of books that day. That was a good day.

Beautiful day. Beautiful day. And I love too that there. It's one thing to buy a book, it's another thing to bring home a piece of what you just heard that allows people in their own time to take your message in because they saw you, they saw the energy, but now they can go deeper. So it also helps your unforgettable message go deeper.

Yeah, yeah. I think there's an emotional connection and people just want to have something else to take home with them. And a book answers that need, I think, in a big way. And it is something they can read. And hopefully you write a good book and people enjoy it. I like doing that. And my other little tip for that time is I sign all the books ahead of time. So I get the books shipped down the day. Obviously they get there a couple days ahead of time, but I have them brought to my room the night before and I sign all the books so that you don't have to take the time when you're taking pictures and stuff to autograph each one. It's like, buy a picture, take a picture, buy a book, take a picture. Buy a book, take a picture, Buy a book, take a picture. You really only have about a 30 minute window to sell whatever you're selling after you finish speaking, before people get distracted and just go, just go elsewhere. I've looked at that too, from a sales standpoint, say, okay, how can I, how can I shorten up this process of moving people through the line? That's your back of the room tip for the day.

Well, I want to piggyback on it real quickly. Do you, in your contract, do you ask for, at 30 minutes after you talk to meet people for autographs, photographs and book sales?

Yeah, and it's not so much that I ask them, I tell them this is what's probably going to happen. You know, I said the people want to take pictures. So, so, you know, a lot of times they have your, you know, you're on and then there's no speaker after you. But typically within an hour, hour and a half, there's usually a break. If it doesn't happen immediately afterwards and if it's too Short a period of time. I'll tell people to say, oh, we have 10 minutes after you speak. I'm like, that's not going to work. I said, you're going to have everybody out of the room. They're going to be lining up. You're never going to get them back in the room. So let's, let's switch this up a little bit. I help people adjust their agendas from time to time. I look at the room set up, which I learned from Darren, say, where's the best place to set my table? Outside. Where are the people going to be? Where are they going after they leave this room? There's a lot of little things that fall into that. But I think about that when I get to the venue, try and put that in place so that I give myself every opportunity to maximize the time while I'm there.

I hope we all caught that. He said, I help them to adjust their schedule. Well said. I help them to adjust his schedule to accommodate that. That's really good advice.

I'm not afraid of telling a meeting planner, like, you guys have too much stuff packed in here and, you know, like, when are the people going to be rigged? However, despite all that great, those great ideas, I did an event in Orlando a couple weeks ago for dentists, and they were, they were in the room from 7:30 until 11:30 with no break. I said, are you kidding me? And so I thought. And I brought like four cases of books. I'm like, man, I'm never gonna sell these things because I'm gonna be out here and they're gonna be locked in. And surprisingly, I hung around. I spoke from like 9 to 1015 or something like that. And they didn't get out till like 11:30 or quarter to 12. And I'm standing out there thinking, this isn't gonna go well. And I sold every one of those books, those four cases of books, because they're dentists. Like, they're used to, like, being. Working in intense situations. Like, think about a dentist schedule in the morning when he goes to work, like drilling on your teeth, on your teeth, on your teeth. And, you know, they don't take breaks. And so for them, that was normal. For me, it was like, this is a crazy way to put an agenda together. But it worked for them.

Yeah.

Well, I want to honor your time, Mark. I really appreciate you being here with Mark and I today. Mark. What we usually do is Mark. Mark Brown is taking notes throughout the podcast and looking at what we call keepers. Your brilliance of Aha. So as we mention those because Mark, I wrote a few down myself. Most of the people who listen to this podcast are either a corporate presenter, maybe a professional speaker or an emerging professional or they're a pastor who want to give their unforgettable sermons. So think of what would your best advice be? Be for them, for that person listening. Mark Brown. I've never had to do the Mark and Mark thing before. Mark Brown, what are some of the keepers that we picked up in this episode?

Well, I've got one right away. Your niche can find you. You have to be aware of what you have to offer and who's asking for it. And your niche can find you. Be ready to do that. It's important, Mark also said to seek those mentors, those role models and invest time to work with them and to listen to them. Also coaching, even though you may be a pro at a sport, music or art, you have to be a professional as a presenter. So go to the coach, get the mentor and great advice for everybody. Slow down, talk to them as if they're five years old. Make sure your audience can fully understand you. And I gotta add, that's really important when you speak internationally like Darren and I do quite a bit. It's a big difference when you speak more slowly and the audience gets you. Those are my first couple right away. Darren, what about you?

That's one that people need that reminder of if they've never, if they've heard it before and if they have heard it before, we need that reminder. Sometimes we want to get the words out and we need to let them feel the experience. So Mark, that bleeds over to I love this. Mark Eaton. It was I have to feel it so my audience feels it. So when you're telling your story, you have to feel it. And Craig says you got to go to your reliving room and relive the experience. So I love that. Also marketing wise on a website, we've got to see something that says tell me more. So what's your tell me more on your website? And then another one was you can't shortcut that process. You can't shortcut the process of becoming unforgettable. We'd love it. A lot of people never ever reach it because they're not getting coached, they're not learning from people who are world class. So some people never achieve it, but those who do, they all went through that process other than those one or two naturally gifted ones. And if you're thinking you're naturally gifted, you're probably not. Don't use that as an excuse if you're naturally gifted. People tell you all the time you're naturally gifted. Mark Brown.

Yeah, I've got one more. Everything Mark talked about today, from the website to the intro video to the work he does, points to solving problems. If you're going to be a professional communicator, you must always make sure you solve the problem for your audience. That is gold right there.

Yeah. And you need to go back to one of our earlier episodes where we talk about clarifying your message. So once you figure out the problem, okay, what's your message to your market? That is how you solve that problem. And Mark, one more that I love. He just said you never reach perfection. We've got to have that mindset that we're never done. You know, we always got to tweak it, try it, reevaluate it, listen to our own programs. Even though it's painful, if it's painful for Mark Brown, Darren Lacroix and Mark Eaton, then it could be painful for you. Probably will be. But that's how you get to where you want to be. That's how you become unforgettable. Anything else, Mark Brown?

I want to say thanks to Mark Eaton for just being a regular guy who has accomplished much in his life but has taken this new career very, very serious, seriously and is willing to invest time, money and effort to be unforgettable. Thank you so much, Mark Eaton.

So, Mark Eaton, what would your advice be?

I think that you've got to dig a little deeper in your message. You have to show a little bit of vulnerability. You don't have to open up the closet door wide open, but I think you've got to show a little bit of vulnerability. And that's the easiest way to connect with the audience. So that was something I learned early on that I didn't necessarily want to go there to talk about. Like, what was it like being tall as a kid growing up or something like that? But I share a little bit of that and wow, it connects me to the audience right away because everybody had some incident or something happen when they were a kid. And so it creates a common platform. And I'm no longer the big NBA guy way up on stage, talking to the audience way down below. Now we've created an even communication space. And so I think that's one thing. I think that if done correctly, can make the best, a big impact with your audience.

And Mark, if somebody wants to learn more about you or if they want to book you for a speech where would we go?

7Foot4Com, that's the website you can find me in all social media things as well.

Is that numeral 7? Word foot and numeral 4.

It's 7 FT4. Just the number 7, the two letters F and T and the number 4. However you spell it, you'll get there.

Fantastic. Thank you. Well, I got to ask one more question, Mark. Do you still tinker with cars?

I do. I have my 1966 Impala convertible. I drive around in the summertime. But any of the new stuff like my truck or whatever. No, I end up taking it dealership because all the electronic stuff, you need a computer to figure out what it is. It's no longer a simple primary or secondary ignition issue. It's some kind of sensor or something that I don't understand which still drives me crazy that the basic mechanical process is okay, that there's some sensor that's not working and that's why your car won't start. It drives me nuts.

I figured you go for a like a 66 Mustang or, or a Charger and you're like in the bullet car chase.

I don't know about that stuff.

That's awesome. That's awesome.

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