Ep. 218 When We Unintentionally Offend With Margaret Page

Hey there, Darren Lacroix. How are you today, my friend? What?

You're starting.

I know, I'm offended. Yeah, today's a little bit different and I just. I want to ask our listeners and the viewers to bear in mind today's topic is touchy, but it's very valuable. And sometimes we say or do things as presenters and we don't realize what could happen when that happens. So today we're going to discuss with our guest what happens when we unintentionally offend.

Anyone can give a presentation. Few deliver unforgettable presentations. What's the difference? You're about to find out. Welcome to the Unforgettable Presentations podcasts with your hosts, world champion speakers and coaches, Mark Brown.

Mark Brown, your life tells a story and there's someone out there who needs to hear it.

And Darren Lacroix.

And Darren Lacroix, Stage time. Stage time. Stage time.

Ready for some powerful presentation, Ahas. Let's dive right in.

Mark. I love when we go deep.

We will. And today we'll go deep in conversation with an entrepreneur, an executive, a business leader, a cool. A cool individual who has a vast amount of experience internationally and someone I consider to be a friend all the way. From Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, let's welcome Margaret Page. Hello, Margaret.

Hi. And thank you so much for saying I was a friend. That. That means a lot to me. Thank you.

And you have been for years. So good to see you after a while. How are things on the west coast of Canada?

Well, you know, fall's coming, so the rains are coming and we had a lovely summer.

Well, good. Summer's coming. Summer's almost over and the fall is coming. And it's funny. I am known for my bad jokes and bad puns and we talk about fall, Darren, as a season. But sometimes to get very. Get to the point directly, sometimes even as presenters, we find ourselves taking a fall. We make a mistake, we hurt someone, we say something that may be offensive, and we have no idea. And friends, I invited Margaret to come on our podcast today because she was willing to share an experience of hers where her fall was for her, enlightening and has really changed her life in a significant way. And Darren, you. You've known Margaret as well for a little while.

Absolutely. And I too consider her a friend. I'm not saying she considers me a friend, but I consider her a friend, so.

Absolutely, Darren.

Absolutely.

Absolute.

And Margit, you've been giving talks all over Canada, North America, and indeed all over the world, and you were sharing with me at Some point in time you had a fall on stage, and of course, I believe you've since gotten up. Not to call Darren falling on stage on his face and getting back up, but it's a wonderful metaphor. What can you tell us about, you know, what led you to. Into speaking and eventually to this inauspicious occasion?

And Darren's speech, or world champion speech, is exact, exactly what happened to me, except I laid on the ground a little bit longer than Darren did. I, as, as you know, I was the leader in an organization and I delivered a speech that the people that were in the audience, there were a couple that let me know how the speech affected them, how one particular story hit them and how it offended them. Now I'm going to use the word offended. They may have used different language with me, and. And if I use the wrong word or describe the wrong emotional, I am sorry about that. But the sort of. The essence was that I shared a story that made people uncomfortable, offended them. The thing or the wonderful thing about that is they let me know because there's probably people that have been in my audience at other times that I may have said something to that saw something different, and they never shared that. But at this particular speech, there were a couple in the audience that let me know how the speech affected them, what it meant to them and what their expectations were of me, what happened afterwards. Of course, at first I was like, disbelief. How could this be? You know, it would be never my intention to harm anyone. As speakers, our goal is always to lift up people, inform them, entertain them, whatever it is. Our goal is always to serve, never to take down or hurt in any way. So first of all, all it was dealing with how I saw myself and then better understanding how I had hurt someone unintentionally, and then making amends for that and then moving on. So there's many, many stages there, Mark, of what happened after I delivered a speech that hurt somebody.

Now, Margaret, when you realize, oh, my goodness, I have hurt someone, there are times I know I can remember saying something at some point and I thought it was funny, and the looks I got told me it was not, and it was borderline offensive, what steps do you take initially once you say, oh, I didn't realize they offended someone, what would you recommend to our listeners and viewers who find themselves having made that mistake, to be the first next step in that situation?

Well, first it's the awareness, and then it's not about placing blame or making excuses that, you know, there's a part of our psyche I think the human psyche that doesn't want to believe that we could do that, harm someone else. So it's. And there was a part of me that wanted to make excuses. Oh, you know, it was Covid. I was really tired. I'd been delivering so many speech. All these excuses. Don't allow them or just say unconscious mind, you know that that's not real or that doesn't serve in this particular case. You have to be a better leader than that and get beyond the excuses because the human psyche will want to do that. Create excuses why it happened, but don't let that rise above the excuses to the point of accepting responsibility and then be willing to do what it takes to make it better and to learn from that experience. If you, if you fail those two pieces to make amends for it and to learn from it, then I, I think you've missed that opportunity. And some of the research about apologies we give on a day to day basis. We extend a lot of apologies when it's probably not necessary. But when it comes to the real places where we ought to be making apologies, often we don't or we don't know how. And it's really about the awareness that you have harmed someone. So the good thing is that they let me know. Because sometimes there could be people in your audience that just leave and talk about it with others and share, you know, say so. And so it really offended me. And you never know. So this was a gift for me that I had that understanding, but also a life gift of me understanding, because I was a cultural intelligence trainer and understanding different cultures and everything. So I knew the model, I knew the differences in different cultures around the world. But what I hadn't at that particular time, and it took me some time to get there, was understand even though we're all God's children and we're all equal, that everyone has a different life experience and that you have to be able to step into someone else's and see it through their eyes. And oh yeah, now I get why that hurt.

Yeah. And I just want to back up too. I think it's natural and normal for us initially, stage one, to get on the defensive. Well, I didn't mean to. That wasn't my intention. And whether it's your intention or not, it happened and they had these thoughts and feelings. Mark and I teach that the most important part of a presentation is the thought process in the listener's mind. So whether we intended to offend or not, and they're offended, it doesn't matter. So I think the initial thoughts or feelings to not take responsibility are kind of normal and human. But as a leader, what I do love is that you step back and said, okay, wait a minute, let me look at this as a true leader of, from their shoes, from their experience, from their perspective, what did they see that I didn't intend to? So I love that. Then you step back because a lot of people will not take step two. They'll just be like, well, the heck with you, I didn't intend to. And stop there. And then no healing occurs and no enlightenment to you, the presenter occurs either.

Darren, you absolutely got it about the intention because since the incident that I was involved in, several people have contacted me about something that happened to them. Some faux pas with an audience. And often it is blaming the audience. Still, they shouldn't have been so thin skinned. Or they ought not to, you know, but that doesn't serve. Then you just go on and you.

And then you offend somebody else again because the lesson wasn't learned somebody else again, the understanding didn't happen.

Instead of thinking, what can I learn from this? What can I learn from? It's a good question to always ask in life, what can I learn from this? And how can I be better?

And for context, without going into too much detail, you mentioned you were a cultural intelligence trainer. I want to make sure I got it right. And for those who are brand new to our or to our podcast, for context, what we're talking about here is that which was perceived as being culturally insensitive. So the irony was here you are a cultural intelligence trainer, believing you were okay, but then being confronted with an offense that was culturally related, which really blindsided you and you didn't see that coming. Yeah. And you said, or you gave us three keys already, Margaret. Now you may see my head go down. I'm actually drawing wisdom from you. I will take notes and I'll share these ideas. Towards the end, we call them the keepers. But you said three things. You said, accept responsibility, learn from the experience and make amends. We could spend three hours on all three. But I want to quickly touch on those three points that you made. Accept responsibility. You said, don't blame the audience, don't make excuses. That's the don't side. And what would you recommend to our listeners and viewers if this ever does happen? What will be the first step to prove to the world that you have accepted that responsibility? How would you advise us?

Well, to apologize, first of all, to. To the people that you hurt and then grow from that experience, apologize to them and anything else that they indicate would help or would improve the situation or make it better for them. And we have a lot of that going around the world in all kinds of situations, of expectations of improving what had happened, improving on what had happened. But really it's the apology and letting them know that you, how you feel, that you are truly sorry and that you will grow from it. It's not just about saying I'm sorry and thinking that's good enough. It isn't. It isn't good enough to say you're sorry. You have to. You have to mean it. You have to be authentic that you are really sorry happened. And then how you will improve off that, how you will take steps so that it won't happen again, or more that you have learned from the experience that you're a better human being because of knowing how it affected someone else and that you will work to do better. I can't. You can't promise. Well, you can promise to do better, but that doesn't mean. Because I never intended to do harm, yet I did, right? So. But my intention is not to do harm to anyone else. And I'm sure all your audience as well, they have no intention to do harm. But sometimes that happens.

And I think of the wisdom, I think it was from Stephen Covey. I originally heard it, heard it from many people. But when you're in that situation and it doesn't make any sense asking the question, help me understand, help me understand. Because we don't know their background, we don't know their experience, we don't know in the moment why we offended. So help me understand. Now, that's a sincere reach out, because I want to understand. I think that's just, that's what you did. I'm just saying as advice to our listeners that, hey, it may happen, it very well could happen to you, but you got to go through these steps. And what I love is you tried to make it right. You know, you made your amends, like we're saying, not just saying, hey, I'm sorry, didn't mean to. That's not enough.

Kind of in the hot seat here, Margit. But you also said twice, learn from the experience. Is there one specific lesson you would pass on to our viewers and listeners? Lesson that you learned from the experience that we could, that we need to not only hear, but to internalize?

Well, I think anytime you can spend more time with your audience ahead of time, or, you know, the HR person or the person that hired you to help you understand the audience, but I guess it's just to be so aware of the stories that you share. Even though my story was a true story, was a true story and the person that I talked about, it was a lesson I learned and they were the hero of the story nonetheless, the story offended. So be open to everyone that comes your way of learning about them and how their life experience might be different than yours. Often we're looking for the commonalities and we group with people that are like us and that read the same books as us and do the same things at us. But the real to take your speaking and your leadership to the new level is really to approach people that are different than you, that have different life experiences and work, to step into their shoes and see through things, through their eyes. Oh, and, you know, it's just such a gift to be able to do that. And fortunately for speakers, we get exposed to so many different people, so. So we have that gift that not a lot of people get, that gift that we have of being able to meet and talk to and hopefully understand so many different kinds of people. And that's a joy in life.

One of the questions that I stumbled upon when I'm interviewing the client, the event planner, ahead of time, I think is a powerful one, is are there any taboo topics that I need to be aware of, and especially if it's international, because now they've had other quote, unquote, American speakers and they do this and that doesn't go well. Well, I want to know, because they've had other experience of other speakers. But what was the thing that happens a lot that I don't want to do? So one way to. Now, it doesn't mean they're going to remember or say or know everything that you plan on talking about, but asking the question is one helpful way to avoid that in the first place. Now, I'm not saying, Margaret, that would have helped in your situation. It wouldn't have. But it is related to this topic. It's a great question to ask again, are there any taboo topics that I should be aware of? And then are there any mistakes other presenters have made, especially if it's an international thing? Just again, you're. You're reaching out, intending not to offend.

Yeah.

And of course, in international audiences, I'm sure you've probably talked on your podcast too, about you have to slow your conversation down. And idioms and cliches are not understood often when we're. They're being used. So there's. That is a whole Learning unto itself, International speaking, really, that's true.

And for the new or emerging speaker who may say, look, I'm not traveling to the Middle east or to Europe. I talk to school districts close by. I'll give you a very simple example. I spent many years talking in middle and high schools. I've spoken for different associations that are involved in education. I was in one particular state here in the usa, we have the state school board association conventions, and I've done several of them. And before the program, I was in contact with the client, and I verified that they would be offended if I mentioned their school district. We don't have school districts. We have school divisions. If you say districts, you will turn everyone off and they will not listen to you. Now, a small word, districts, to divisions, was, in their minds, offensive. And I say that because I realized what we may think is no big deal could be offense to someone else. And I want to thank you for the wisdom you shared just now, Margaret. You said we're often encouraged to find common ground with those who are different. And I. I suspect that at times we try so hard to find that common ground, we forget to still be aware of our differences, to respect those differences and be aware that there may be an opportunity we may inadvertently, unwittingly or unintentionally offend if we don't keep in mind that those differences exist in faith, in practice, in culture. And we need to respect that. And that goes beyond international. Right now, North America is very ethnically and diverse as far as religion, belief, philosophy, and we have to coexist. And that, to me, is great wisdom. Yes. Find the common ground, but do not discount the differences that could cause offense. So I thank you for that. Your third idea was to make amends. This could be a long topic, but if you can share one or two ways in which you made amends, are there general ideas or actions we can take to make amends if we do offend? That you can share with us, to guide us if we do ever make amendments, a mistake like that going forward?

Well, if you've offended someone, I think the first thing is to ask that group, that person, that individual, how you can make it better for them, or what would help?

What.

What would they appreciate that you do that would help them see you through a different lens or even see humanity through people, through a different lens.

How can I make it right? How can I make it right?

Yes, how can I make it right? How can I make it right? And. And in my particular case, what I felt strongly that I needed to do because it was a mistake I had made personally. I didn't want the organization that I was representing to be affected because of my mistake. And so as leaders, we need to be cautious of that as well. When you're. And I think we've seen that many times with environmental things or issues with a product that's gone wrong, and particularly much more severe cases where death has occurred or whatever the case, you have to take responsibility and then make amends in some. In some ways. But in my case, it was about removing myself from the organization so that whatever fell on me or whatever was my wrongdoing was not the wrongdoing of the organization because the organization had not done anything wrong. It was me individually that had made a mistake.

That's really taking responsibility. And you did it for the good of the organization so it could remain clear, simple, clean, strong. And I really admire that's taking responsibility. That's a true leader.

Yeah. And I have great respect for you in that regard, Margaret, my personal friendship with you notwithstanding. And I sincerely hope you didn't lose any friends because of this. But I think about the global idea of someone offending and not being willing to go as far as you did. Now, Darren and Margaret, you may not be soccer football fans in the last several months in the country of Spain. I can talk. It's public knowledge. In Spain there was an incident with the head coach of the women's soccer team kissing one of the teammates of one of his players when they won the World Cup. But he kissed her on the mouth and it became a thing, and he refused to step down. It became. It began to bubble over and bubble over. The women no longer wanted to play for him and they were being forced to play. It became this big incident. And anyone who understands European football or world football will understand the story. I hold that up as one example. If we think of politicians who refuse to resign, I will not leave my seat because I was right. That happens all over the world. But you chose at personal expense to do your best to me. As Darren says, that was a sign of good leadership. It was your last act of leadership. But in my opinion, and this is my opinion, it was a true sign of leadership because you said, I must protect the organization. I accept full responsibility, and I must now move on. And I must now move on to a difficult question. I hinted earlier when I said, I hope you didn't lose any good friends because of it. Is it not true in principle that we can lose relationships as a result of unintentional mistakes and errors and offense. And how do you. You said you stayed down longer than Darren stayed out on the stage. How do you get back up from that, particularly when the pain of loss or changed relationships is forever in the forefront of your mind?

Yeah. Was an extremely challenging time. And I thought. There were days that I thought I might not recover from it. There were days that I, I, you know, and I beat myself up about it. How could I, you know, what was I thinking, you know, on and on and on. And I didn't even want to go out to the grocery store in case somebody. Somebody saw me that knew or it was that kind of total, total discomfort. And I didn't want to answer emails. I didn't want to pick up the phone. I didn't want to, you know, do anything. And slowly, slowly. And. And I learned so much about other people's experience. There were people that rallied around me and said, you know, there's no way you could do anything to. To hurt anyone or, you know, and they. Without asking any questions. And then there were a lot of people that just wanted to ask the question. And then there was. I think I shared this with you another time, Mark. There was this amazing woman who just wanted to hold space for me. She didn't want to say I was right. She didn't want to say I was wrong. She just. And it was such an amazing experience just to. I think there's a. A little cartoon of Pooh Bear and about him sitting on the rock just beside. I'm just going to sit here and be with you. That's the way she was. And this was not a person that I had a. A strong previous connection with. It was just someone that I worked with. They called me, just held space with me. And so that's a gift you can give somebody if they're ever in that situation. I think what ultimately started happening was when my grandchildren come, I knew that I had to be a role model for them. So laying in bed all day blaming myself didn't serve them. And then, of course, I had to ask the question, what would a leader do? What would a leader do in this? And, you know, I had to pick myself up by the bootstraps. And yes, my life was going to be very, very different because I had a plan for three or four years what was going to be unfolding for those three or four years, and that was like, totally wiped out. A friend likened it to it's being set on a raft, and the land you left behind, you can't see it. Anymore. And you know, you can't go back there, but you don't know where you're going. You have no idea. It's foggy and you don't know if there's land or there's sharks or where you're going. What you're doing so is having to start all over again understanding who I am and that I was still a good person. Yes, I had made a mistake, but there was still goodness in me and there was more work to be done. And so it was slowly very building myself up, weeks and months and thank goodness I had the, the grandchildren or, or that someone to, to be the leverage to, to move forward. And you know, had I not had grandchildren or, or whatever, I don't know that I, I, I would hope that I would have that come to this. You know, what would a leader do? Well, a leader would show what happens when you make a mistake, be the role model. Because other people make mistakes. Maybe not as severe as this, but you know, you have to role model that and be the model so that other people too will, if they've made a mistake, pull themselves up and make a difference. Teach the lessons that you learn from that because there's people that need to know and understand and you could make a difference in someone else's life. And I hope we are making a difference in speakers or individuals lives by.

I believe we are right now. So the raft is no longer a drift, is it, Mar?

No, it's touched. It's touched out. Thank you for, for being a part of that. Wow.

We sometimes forget we're people before we're speakers and presenters. And thanks for reminding us that and opening up and being so transparent. Realizing what you went through is an amazing lesson for all of us. And thank you for coming here and being willing to share this because can't imagine how it felt going through the middle of that.

Yeah.

One last question, Margaret. Now that the raft has landed, looking back across the choppy waters, the sharks, the barracudas, the storms, all of the above. How bright is the sunshine now for you in the new land? Are you in the promised land? Or what's, what's next for Margaret P.

You know, I'll just continue to learn and grow and if people want to learn or speak with me, I've been doing a lot of mentoring, a lot of coaching, a lot of training, a lot of traveling and new horizons have opened up. Whereas the last sort of 15 years have been, been about one thing. Now there's new opportunities and that's a good thing. Sometimes our lives need to have a pivot in a new direction. Maybe we're called in in a different way. And I like to think that I'm. That the lessons make a difference and that I'm on a new journey now of discovery, what that will be and how I can serve in a more robust way or more dynamic way.

I commend you because in the midst of all you've been through, you just said how I can serve in a more dynamic way. The servant's heart still remains. And I'm kind of tickled personally because you mentioned I'm now coaching. And I would suspect, even though I can't prove it, I would suspect your coaching clients have learned so many lessons from you, one on one, personally, about unintended mistakes, about trips and falls. And I think by your life, how to get up when you feel so disconsolate, when you feel there's no, no more hope. And you've proven to us that when we unintentionally offend, if we accept responsibility, we apologize, we learn from experience, we make amends that there is hope for us. And those who are around us, if they're willing, can learn from us. And perhaps our lives can help prevent them from making similar mistakes.

And my last question as Mark gathers his notes to recap the wisdom, you dropped first, how. Look at all those notes first. How would anybody find you or reach out to you if they want to connect? If they're looking for help or coaching or inspiration. Inspiration or just want to know more about Margaret Page, where would they go?

Oh, thank you. That's so sweet of you. Darren. I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, so it's Margaret. Margaretpage.com has been my email address and they can reach out and I'd be delighted to talk to them, particularly people that are in a difficult situation. I've been there. I understand. And I would be delighted to support and help you.

Sweet. So my, my last question would be if someone that you knew accidentally unintentionally offended someone and they just said, margaret, just help me out and you sat down with them over coffee, what would you say to them?

Well, I'd ask them if, if they learned from the experience, did they under ultimately understand or are they still in the blaming or making excuses and they're in the blaming and making excuses, then it would be move them towards the learning. And once they've done the learning, then that's the point that you can move on. Otherwise it's just a spiral down on blaming and making Excuses, that's not a good place to be. But once you get to the learning, it makes a difference. And then you can serve others. Once you get to that learning point.

And also forgive yourself, that leads to one last question. I didn't plan to ask, but you just. You just tease up for me. Darren and Margaret, there's one last question, same scenario. You're with them and they say, margaret, I cannot believe I did that. I really messed up and I cannot forgive myself. How do you advise us in that situation?

What would it take to forgive yourself? What has to happen, you know, because the answers are usually within the person themselves. And my experience is going to be different than what their experience is. But if you can pull out from them what has to happen for them? It's all about asking the right questions, right? It's not about necessarily giving them 1, 2, 3. But ask the right question and they will share with you what needs to happen for them, because, again, their life experience was different.

Well, Margaret, I want to commend you. You have taken a horrendous experience that costs you so much, and you have found a way to use it to serve others, including the viewers and listeners to the Unforgettable Presentations podcast. And as always, I'll try to leave a few keepers. What I learned today and what we heard from you today, that would be helpful. You said, listen to what your audience tells you, because that can be a gift for you that could transform your experience. Our purpose is to elevate, inform, entertain, and serve and use experiences where you unintentionally offend. Use them for introspection. Do not make excuses. Do not blame the audience. Learn from the experience. Accept responsibility, make amends for your errors, and learn continually to see through the audience's eyes. Which is why it's wise to really have conversations before you meet any audience. Talk to them ahead of time and be aware. Yes, find what we have in common, but also be aware of our differences. Be open to diverse life experiences. Learn taboo topics, particularly with international audiences. After you have offended, always ask, how can I make it right? Make it about them, their perspective and their feelings. As a leader, you have to be cautious about what you say. And sometimes, if you know someone who committed the offense, give them the gift of making space for them. And remember, when you feel at your lowest, always ask, what would a leader do? Be the role model to your family, your children, your grandchildren, and those who follow you. And if you ever have to go through this again, find a way to serve someone else and help them when they unintentionally offend. Darren Bam.

Margaret Page thanks for being so transparent and truly being a leader, inspiring us and helping us know how to handle something that we didn't see coming, we didn't intend, however it happened. So when we unintentionally offend, thanks for being a great example to the world. Margaret Page we're fans and friends. Thanks for being here.

Thank you for having me and thanks for spending this time with me. I enjoyed it. Thank you.

Our pleasure and friends, thank you. As always we are here at Stagetown University. Come to a workshop but always, always always tune in to the Unforgettable Presentations podcast. We will see you next week.

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