Ep. 54 Create Your Legenday Story with Michael Hauge Your Unforgettable Story

Mark, we have been talking about this interview for probably since the beginning. This is one of the guys we love to share the stage. We even call him the legend.

The legend.

And here's the cool thing. We're not even exaggerating because Will Smith calls him the legend. So how can you argue with Will Smith? But here's what I love about Michael. Michael Haig can see and into a story, parts that even you and I can't see. He's helped me with stories, so I'm excited about this, Mark.

And there's no wonder that his expertise, his whole brand is called Story mastery, because not only is he a legend, but he is the master.

Anyone can give a presentation. Few deliver unforgettable presentations. What's the difference? You're about to find out. Welcome to the Unforgettable Presentations podcast with your hosts, world champion speakers and coaches, Mark Brown. Mark Brown.

Your life tells a story, and there's someone out there who needs to hear it.

And Darren Lacroix. And Darren Lacroix.

Stage time. Stage time. Stage time.

Ready for some powerful presentation, AHAs. Let's dive right in.

All right, Mark, there's a time when you know people, the old Clint Eastwood line. You're a legend in your own mind. Well, Michael is actually a legend in our minds as well as many others. Welcome Michael Haig.

Great to be here. I am looking forward to this. Have been. I must say, I'm a little nervous. And the reason is the three of us have been on the stage together now numerous times, and we've interacted a lot. But I have no memory of you guys ever interviewing me, just directing questions at me. And I'm a little worried this is going to turn into a 60 Minutes expose. I don't really know what I'm talking about, and I'm so on. So you guys got to be gentle now.

Come on. Michael Hague, it was just such a fascinating story meeting you from Patricia Fripp. And that was back when I was starting my script and she invited me to the event here in Vegas. I'm like, who is this guy? And just hearing you speak. Wow. He gets it. He sees things that other people don't see. And it was beautiful because at that event, I remember talking with you and Patricia over dinner. You have to tell the Will Smith story. And you're like, well, you know, I told it. Once it's done, we're like, no, you don't understand how powerful it is. So, Michael Hage, I'm gonna put you on the spot right away. I Want to talk more about the story and the importance of it and how we can. So if you would just tell us, how did you come to meet Will Smith?

We're talking now about 13 years ago January, last January. I was at that time working entirely as a script consultant and story coach in Hollywood. That's what I've been doing for 40 years. The first sort of thing I need to lay the groundwork for is I absolutely love what I do. I've just been blessed with getting to spend every day of my working life basically talking about movies is what it boils down to. And I've always loved movies, and I just. It's just been a wonderful career. But that doesn't mean that I don't succumb from time to time to getting a bit down or mopey or saying to myself, well, yeah, this is all good, but I've never been in, like, the inner circle. Okay, now, the inner circle. I'm assuming that everyone listening and watching knows what that is, but if you don't, it's simply that group of people who are in whatever endeavor you pursue. So there's an inner circle of doctors and of lawyers, of speakers, Certainly. It's the people have reached the pinnacle and they're always at this elevated place. And the one way you can usually define the inner circle, at least I always could, is I knew I wasn't in it. So. And so it's like, well, yeah, I work in Hollywood, and I've gotten to work with some studios and a movie star too, and so on, but, gosh, I never have quite done that. So basically I was feeling sorry for myself. And I'm sitting in my office, it's late in the day. I'm doing my number one activity when I'm at work and that is staring out the window. And the phone rings and I put the person on speaker and say, hi, this is Michael Haig. The voice on the other end says, hi, my name is Angela and I work for Will Smith. I took her off speaker and I said, you mean Will Smith? Will Smith? And she said, yeah, that's the one. And she said, will is making a movie right now. He's shooting it in Canada called I Am Legendary. They're already in production, but there are some things they're not quite sure of about the script. They want to make sure it could be as good as possible. Will wants to know, would you be willing to take a look at this and give him back any suggestions, feedback, etc. That he might have. I paused a Couple of seconds for dignity, and said, yeah, I think I can find the time. She emailed the script to me as it's done. I took the script, I printed it up, I made my notations, I read it through twice. I typed up pages of comments, suggestions and so on. And I emailed it back and I thought, now that's cool. And I said to my wife, Vicki, I said, how neat is this? The biggest movie star in the world wanted me to read a script for him. And I thought, that's just neat. I was just feeling very good. A couple days later, back in my office, probably staring out the window again. Phone rings again. Hi, it's Angela. Took her off speaker. She said, I work with Will Smith. I said, yes, I remember. She said, will really like the notes you gave on the script. And he wants to know if you'd be willing to have a conversation with him because he has some ideas of his own and he wants to bounce them off you and see what you think. I said to yeah, I think I can find the time. But I said, but before you go, I'd like to know, how does Will Smith even know who I am? I mean, what made him want to call me? And she said, well, I know he's had your book writing screenplays that sell for a long time, but I think it was because he just recently saw a video you did called the Heroes Two Journeys. And he especially liked how it's about the false self we present to the world, the identity we present, and how when we have evolved, it means we're living out of our essence. And he really liked that. So I'm assuming that's why he called. Great. I said, a couple days later, we're scheduled to have the call. I'm sitting at my desk. I make the mistake that I'm sure everybody has made at least once. And that is when you're about to have a really important phone call or meeting, you get ready for it like a half an hour early. I'm sitting at my desk like a half an hour before it's scheduled, and all you can do is get more nervous. I'm just fidgety, but I figured it's okay, you know, I've got my script, I've got my notes, I've got my Xanax. I'm ready to go. Finally, phone rings. It's not Will, because Will doesn't make telephone calls himself. He has people to do that. But it's Angela. And she says, hi, I've got Will for you. And Will gets on the phone. Now, I've never, of course, spoken to or met him before. And I said, look, I know you want to talk about this script, but you gotta let me do the fan thing a minute. And he said, okay. He knew what I was talking about. And I said, I just want to tell you that Hitch is one of my all time favorite movies. In fact, I lecture about that movie frequently because to me, it's the epitome of a wonderfully written and wonderfully made romantic comedy. And Will said, well, I should probably tell you that the whole time we were developing the screenplay for Hitch, we kept asking ourselves, now are we doing what Michael Haig said we should be doing about identity, in essence? And I thought, I'm in the circle that still goes down. If somebody ever says, Top 10 moments of your life, certainly of your career, that would be one of them. It was just a real high to have that happen. And it was the beginning of a long relationship. A few by. I worked on other scripts for him and was eventually put on retainer by his company. And it was just. Nice moment.

What a great story. What a great story.

Love it. Love, love it.

This has been great. You guys have a good one now. We should talk about maybe. Maybe you were going to talk about this. In all honesty, we should talk about what happened when I told that story for the first time at the event in Las Vegas that you were coming to. You want me to run through that?

Well, let's give your side of it and then I'll give you mine. Then I'll tell you the truth.

This was also so the first time I ever told that story. I was part of a weekend event in Las Vegas. There were probably 100 people there to see. Four of us who were sort of the gurus of screenwriting and so on. And Patricia Fripp, who had been a good friend of mine for some time at that point. I invited her to come because I knew she lived in Las Vegas. And she brought Darren along, who I had never met before. So great. And I think because it was, I always went last. So it's Sunday afternoon and it's always my job to keep people's energy up and back, clean up and so on. But it was such a good group. Or maybe I was just relieved to be done. And I just, off the top of my head, felt like, well, maybe they'd enjoy hearing about when I first met Will. So I told the story and it got a good response and neat. I thought that was fun. And then, as Darren said, they took me out to dinner at a gourmet vegetarian restaurant in Las Vegas, which I appreciate it and I swear our butts had not hit the seat before the two of them almost throttled me and said, you have got to tell that story about Will Smith every time you speak. And I said, no, I don't, I'm not going to do that. Because I said it just seemed like me bragging, it's just all self serving and I don't want to do that, it would be embarrassing. And they said, no, no, it's not that at all. Now Darren will tell his point of view and what their argument was, but very, very reluctantly, I decided, okay, I'll try it again one more time. And I told him one more time and it got an even better response. People were pleased about me getting in the inner circle and so on. And now it's become my signature story, I guess you'd say. And people love that. So now, not wanting to be self aggrandizing on top of being self aggrandizing, I'd like to hear Darren's point of view about and what their response was when I said I didn't want to tell this story anymore.

And by the way, the reason I went off camera for a second, this is the actual book cover from that event, the Screenwriters Summit. And that was December 9, 2012. That was the day Michael Hague. Well, here's the thing. The cool thing to me was we were pulling for you. And part like when we're listening to the story because here's a guy who wants to be in the inner circle, what person chooses a passion or has a job or has a love that doesn't want to again reach the inner circle. So character wise, we're pulling for you, we're with you. We want you to win because if you win, then we get that good feeling. And the fact that you still tell it in a humble way by saying, you know, you are so excited to just get the call from the assistant. I've heard you tell it a few times and it just never gets old for me. But to me it shows humility, it shows credibility, it shows the fact that you're telling that story now. We want to learn more from you. Mark your thoughts.

No, I totally agree. And of course I have a bit of an advantage in that we haven't interviewed you, Michael, but we have spent time in conversation over supper and at various times. And of course my first phone call to Michael was like, Michael, if you have time, do you mind a little half an hour of My time and I was so to talk to Michael Haig. But having heard other stories of how that relationship developed, it made me realize that we all kind of have stories that we may think is, no, no, I don't want to brag on anybody or appear to be showing off, but by telling our story in with the humility that you have, Michael, in a humble way that is not self aggrandizement, that we can reveal to our audiences that whatever they aspire to, whatever struggle they go to, they go through, they can also get in the inner circle. So for me, that's really refreshing. For me, it's very encouraging. And also hearing some of the other stories which I will not ask you to tell, like the car story, you know, I think it's really cool how the development of the relationship also can teach us that when we get to whatever goal we aspire to, that may not be the end all and the be all. There's more to be learned, more to be gained, and there are more stories to tell from the experiences that we have from the journey, the destination and beyond. If that kind of makes sense to you, Michael.

Oh, totally. In fact, one of the things that I've learned, starting with Darren and Patricio insisted I do it. But in thinking about that story and other stories more, because I think a lot of us worry about telling stories about ourselves, saying I'm just going to seem like I'm superior or I'm above you all, or it's bragging or it's ego. And we have all been to see people speak that are exactly that way. It's like I'm great and I only hope that someday you can reach the level that I have achieved. It's like Miami. No, I won't be able to because I'm not great anymore. But here's what I realize and what everyone needs to realize. If you start there, if you start by saying, I've done this, this, this and this, so you should really pay attention to me, then it's going to separate you from the audience because we don't feel like we're there and, and it is sort of bragging. But if you start at a place where you were living your everyday life, where you were suffering in some way, where you had some issue, some problem, you were stuck, you were in jeopardy of losing a job, wherever that was, and you had a goal you wanted to achieve by starting there and revealing conflict that was going on in your life. Conflict is one of the ways you create empathy between your audience and you when you're on the stage, or does have to be on the stage, now we're talking about online or even if you're a writer. So if you create that empathy, what that means is your audience has become you on a subconscious level. So now when you tell the story, you are taking the audience on a journey toward whatever that goal is. But because they're connected to you as the hero of the story, they are on the same journey. So now when there's that success at the end, you're really giving them the emotional experience of having that success, and they are celebrating it with you, rather than just saying, oh, that's nice that.

You had that happen to point out something too. Just the brilliance of it. Michael, I'd love to know how that story has evolved as you've told it over and over again. But one of the things that is brilliant in the telling of it, which makes your credibility come out, is you ask the assistant, why does Will want my perspective? And she says, well, he's had your book. And then we learn that he saw the video of the two journeys. And then you talk to him later, and he says, we filming the movie Hitch. And we asked ourselves, what would Michael Haig do? And so all these three pieces of credibility come from other people rather than you bragging, which is one of the ways our key for everyone, our key signature stories, doesn't come across as egotistical, but yet comes across as credible. Michael, your thoughts on that?

Ditto.

Well, how has that. How is that story? How have you changed the telling of it over time?

I'm a little reluctant to tell because A, it's always embarrassing to talk about the first draft of anything. And I don't want to spoil the illusion, but I will share an expression. I know you guys have quoted, at least in some form, but one of my philosophies of telling stories is if you're telling a story for business or a personal story, like I was, it has to be true, but it doesn't have to be factual. And what I mean by that distinction is you can't claim you've done things that you haven't done. If you're selling a product, you can't claim it turned everybody who bought it into a millionaire. But if for the sake of the story, you need to combine characters or situations or you want to extract from it a realization that might not have existed at the time it happened. Because a lot of times we look back on things and realize it. When I first told the story, some of what I just Said I hadn't prepared it or polished it or anything. But one of the things was I wanted to figure out what was really the theme of the story, what was the message. So that idea of the inner circle was not something I was thinking to myself when I got the call. I wasn't really moping at the time. I honestly don't remember. But what I do remember is, and still that has always been an issue for me, feeling like the outsider who is sort of tangentially in Hollywood or tangentially doing this or I'm sort of there. And I'm sure you guys, I mean, you're world champs, and I bet sometimes you still feel, well, yeah, I'm a good speaker, but I'm not that. And you pick out somebody that you decide is elevated above you. So we all have that experience. And I thought, well, yeah, that was true for me at the time and always has been. And so I could weave that in. So that was an addition. But the core of it was true. The one thing I didn't make up, fortunately and probably couldn't because this might have been dishonest, is I really did ask her, why did he want to talk to me? And she really did say it was because she said exactly. I was quoting her exactly. So that part wasn't artificial. And then the inner circle thing, and then just a few little things. Like I said, it was late and I was staring out the window. That was to create a more vivid setting, but also it had a kind of a quality, I felt, of sort of being alone and feeling a bit separate and so on. If I start out by saying I was having this wonderful day and I had just helped numerous people, and then I got this call, it's not going to create empathy. So there were things like that that were the. The sort of polishes and the, you know, that's what you'd call it, sort of polishing it up.

Brilliant. Brilliant, Michael. Twice you said creating empathy. And I hope everyone catches this. As you listen or watch this, watch this program, we know. Michael Hague, Hollywood script consultant to the stars. We find out Will Smith's company put you on retainer. Basically, they've got you on speed, speed dial. And we're going, oh, my gosh. But the way you tell the story, the empathy piece, is we can see ourselves in your shoes. Even though we are not Hollywood script consultants, we come from all walks of life, but the emotion, the feeling of wanting to be somewhere where someone else is and having that one small window of opportunity, seizing that, and then Building on that and not being able to talk about it, we can all relate to being that person. And I so appreciate the detail about looking out the window to imply solitude, loneliness, nothing's really happening, which creates the inner conflict in our hearts that many of us feel. We are in a place where we're stuck, particularly now as we record this particular podcast into 2020amidst the COVID pandemic. And many of us feel stuck. We're not getting to where we want to be. We're not doing what we want to do, but having that feeling that connects us to you, despite all your accomplishments in the moment, we can relate. And we as presenters must now look at that in our own lives and say, you know what? In our moment, if our audiences, if we're a pastor or congregation, if our listeners can find a point of contact where they connect, where they have emotion and empathy and they can relate, that's what brings them on the journey and takes them with us through all the material that we prepared to bless them, to help them, to inspire them, and to encourage them. So I don't take lightly that small detail of sitting in my office, doing what I always do, looking out the window. It's a great example of setting an atmosphere that creates the conflict through which you take us in that very short and very powerful story. So thank you for that, Michael.

Sure. And you said something there that's really critical, that goes even way beyond creating empathy, and that is conflict. My sort of motto, my phrase is not mine, but the thing I have said every time I have ever seen, spoken, or presented about storytelling in any context is your job as a storyteller is to elicit emotion. You got to get people to feel. You can use story to sell things. You can use story to get people to take action. You can get them angry, you can inspire them, but you can't do any of those things if they don't feel something. And the fastest path to emotion, really, the core way of creating emotion is to create conflict. It's the obstacles the character has to overcome that make a story emotional. And that applies to empathy. It's like you start the story. In the start of the story, the hero is stuck. Sometimes inner, you know, sometimes it's an inertia that's on the inside. But if that person is the victim of something, some undeserved misfortune, if that person is in jeopardy, worried about something, so that we will worry about them, if that person is someone who helps other people with their conflicts, sympathy, jeopardy, likeability, those are the Key tools you want to use for creating that empathy. And that has to continue through the whole story. Mark, as you were saying, I think that oftentimes we fall into a trap of saying to ourselves or asking ourselves, why would these people want to hear from me? And then they're all in this group and I'm not in that group, so why do they care what I have to say? What could I possibly have to give them? The fallacy there is that we are drawn to people who are like us externally. I mean, you know, it's like you and me, Mark, we're almost like two peas in a pod because, well, you did, you know, grew up in Jamaica and I grew up in Oregon and you are black and I'm white and you're good looking and ah, come on. And I have hair. But it's not about that. It's. We connect on the level of emotion we create. We connect through the shared experience, honestly, the shared experience of pain or pain and longing. But I usually use Hollywood as proof. If you take a movie like the King's Speech, okay, it's about an English prince who lived in the first half of the 20th century before most of us were born. Listening to this or watching this, he's royalty. Everything about his situation is dissimilar to anyone who goes to see that movie. So if it's about being like the person, that movie wouldn't have made a dime. And it made over $100 million and won a best Picture Oscar, among others, because it was the emotion he was experiencing. The feeling of being. The feeling of not being strong enough or qualified to take the burden you've been given to do the job he'd been asked to do. We've all felt that way. We've all felt like outsiders. That's what you're going for. That's going to create the connection.

And I know Michael, when I did a one on one with you. By the way, if you're working on a story, especially even a business, business story or keynote story, check out storymastery.com go get Michael's book. Don't even pass go, don't collect $200, get his book and do a one on one with Michael because he will find stories in you and the part of the story that matters. And I remember sitting down with you, I'm like, okay, let me reevaluate my valet story when I told it. And it was good and it gets a big laugh at the end. And you're like, hmm, why do you start off that way? I'm like, what? Like, what are you talking about? And I had started off on, it was a bad day and it just kept getting worse. And you said, why not start with the emotion of here's a huge opportunity. If I did good at this speech, this could launch my career because I was an emerging wannabe at that time. But you just looked into it and you showed me about the emotional shift that was needed to really bring people in. Your thoughts.

Yeah. Since we were talking, I've been thinking about that particular story, which I loved and was a good story to begin with. I was doing sort of Hollywood things to it. But there's one time, in my opinion, that you're allowed to brag when you tell a story, and that is if you set yourself up for a fall at the beginning. Now, you didn't, weren't quite doing this. You were more hopeful, but it was all positive. But we've seen those stories before and I think the audience now, when it hears it thinks to themselves, uh oh, something bad's going to happen because he's too excited about this. And so the fact that you thought this is going to be great, you're already picturing yourself on to glory. And then you had this hilariously painful, disastrous speaking experience out of which you got the lesson that works. Because then it's not like, well, I was struggling and then I struggled and then I struggled and then I struggled. It was, oh, this was going to be great. In other words, you were laying in stakes that were much higher because if it was just going to be one hard speech, you'd been there. But if this was going to be the career launching event, now a lot is on the line for you and that makes the conflict even greater, but also the humor as well.

I think one of the other brilliance that I learned from you and Mark and I talk about this on the podcast. Podcast quite a bit, is your insight. So number one, elicit emotion. That was the first greatest lesson I ever learned from you and still one of the best. But recently, I think was a couple boot camps ago that we work with you and you said, follow the pain. Follow the pain. Well, explain that to, you know, the commoners, the people listening.

You mean the people who aren't in the inner circle.

Other outsiders.

Just kidding. We'll give it a little some more crumbs. God, I hope that's not taken out of. Okay, Michael Haig says, see Michael Haig, he thinks he's in an inner circle. Follow the pain. It's really a variation on that same Idea, which is conflict elicits emotion. But if you're looking to for stories to tell, because we're all, I think probably everybody knows, and if not, they've had it drilled into them. You really got to tell stories. If you want to be a good speaker, well, that's all fine, but unless you say a don't know how that's fixable. But also, nothing's ever happened to me. Why would somebody want to hear about my life is as dull as dishwater? I've never climbed a mountain. I haven't rallied back from some horrible accident or disease or shortcoming or whatever it might be. I'm just a slug who just goes through life. But that's never true because, again, it has to do with connecting with the emotions. So when you're trying to come up with stories, you look for situations in your life where you experience pain, pain and struggle. Not because all your stories need to be maudlin or anything like that, or depressing, but it's when you face challenges in your life, and you did. If you got this far, if you got far enough to be on this podcast, listening or watching to this, you've gone through struggles, because otherwise everybody can say yes to that once they get to the second grade, pretty much. So you look for those times in your life when you struggled, when you were in some kind of pain, when you felt stuck, when you weren't getting what you wanted to get, or when you suffered a setback of some kind. And then ask yourself, how did I get through that? How did I get to the other side of that? How did I accomplish that thing that during the process of going for it, I didn't think I'd be able to and look for those situations and draw your stories out of that, because it's that pain that will connect with your audience. And it's out of those painful situations in our lives that we tend to change. That's when we do tend to grow. If everything goes very smoothly, then we probably haven't really evolve too much in our lives. But it's those moments when we learn that we can overcome obstacles that we didn't think we could, that we acquire courage, that we acquire strength. So those are the stories people need to hear.

And just bragging on you. There's a reason why the video that Will Smith saw resonated with him, because you go so deep. But what people might not know is you. You as a screenwriter coach or scriptwriter, reviewer, forgive me for not knowing the term. You've read over, like, thousands of Screenplays, is that correct?

I lost count. It's that many. I'm sure it's beyond a thousand. When it gets to thousands, I'm not sure. But I've been doing this for 40 years. I've been reading scriptures and doing, you know, working in Hollywood for four years. So if you just do the math, yeah, it would be that. So, yeah, in fact, when I first got my very first job in Hollywood, it was as a reader, which is just what it says. The formal term is story analyst. Just because everybody wants a formal term for their job. And reader doesn't sound very exciting. And that just means producers, studios, agents hire people to read all the scripts that come, what is it? Over the transom or across the. Through whatever the transom is that fall on their desk that they don't want to read because they know they're not going to be any good and they don't have time. So they hire someone to read the script and write coverage. A one page synopsis. This is what happens. And this is, is my evaluation of it the first time when I learned how to do that at film school. And then I made like 100 phone calls to find somebody who might want to hire me to do that. And I finally found an agent who said, yeah, I don't care what you've done, come in. I'm going to give you a script that I'm familiar with. You do coverage. If I like it, you're hired. So he liked it. And I was. I got paid $10 a script to read it, write a synopsis and give an evaluation. And it took about a day to do all that work. So I was immediately pulling down $10 a day after moving to Hollywood. My dad, I'm sure, was so proud.

That's my boy. That's my boy.

Now, I know I'm very old, but I was.

It was a lot of money back then.

$10 was a fortune even back then. But when I went in to get my first stack of scripts for my first job in Hollywood and I got them and I said to the agent, gee, I hope, I hope one of these is, you know, I hope one of these is worth recommending. And he says, don't get your hopes up. He said, you'll be lucky if 1 out of 100 scripts you read is any good.

Wow.

I thought, what a cynical guy. I read 100 scripts and I read two. And I think thought, yeah, he overestimated because. And I learned more from reading so many bad scripts. And we all do that. I bet you Guys are the same as you study. I mean, you can learn so much when you see the weaknesses in your own or other people's speaking because you then think, oh, I see that didn't work. I got to help people overcome that obstacle. They can't fall victim to that mistake. I would venture to say that a great deal of what I talk about now, 40 years later is based on things that I learned by reading all those bad scripts and then comparing them to the good ones.

Script time. Script time. Script time.

Yeah, there you go.

Yeah, that's what I wanted to bring out, that you did so much of that research. That's why now you can see the mistakes. It's like Mark in coaching. He saw my speech and in two minutes he could see what I couldn't see after seven years. Now for entrepreneurs speakers, Michael, I can't not have you on a podcast not tell the story. So three years ago, four years ago, I became a Russell Brunson junkie and I got into click funnels. I'm still have click funnels, but I was just impressed. And he gave me a new way to look at marketing and online marketing. And so I got his book Expert Secrets and I have it on Audible and I had a speech in California. I drove to California from Vegas. I drive back and I'm listening to it. I can literally remember the moment when I pull off of Route 15 to pull into Vegas from this trip. And Russell Brunson says, what I have to say is I learned this from Michael Haig, how to tell a story. I was like, Michael Haig, Michael Haig like Will Smith. Will Smith like my Michael Hague, like the guy who I'm trying to get into his inner circle. And I just flipped out. And he just brags about that fact that he learned how to tell a story for business purposes from you. And that I believe also came from that inner journey video. Is that correct?

Yeah. Or two. I hate to think if I had all credit that's due the Heroes 2 Journeys still available on my website. The Heroes 2 Journeys is actually an all day lecture I gave with Christopher Vogler, who is a story expert who takes a. Yeah, there it is. Well, all of those people, you know, that I was teamed with, they're all just amazing. It was just a great experience getting to do that summit with the five of us, sharing the stage and taking turns and so on. But Christopher Vogler's approach to story is based on Joseph Campbell's hero's journey mythical approach. And he's great. So we did this Together. As an afterthought, when it had been my idea for us to do this together, I set it up and I think it was the week of doing that, I thought, yeah, might not be a bad idea to film this. See, I never have any original ideas. Things have to fall in my lap. And fortunately I did because that video that resulted, it was that that got Will Smith to call me. It was that that got Russell Brunson and his partner to invite me to a conference they were having where I talked about the Hero's Attorney and my particular, particular approach to structure, which is there are six steps and structure just means it's the map for the journey the hero goes through. It's what happens and when does it happen. And also the first Internet marketer I ever encountered saw that and his name was Matt Basak, also this top level Internet marketer, sort of a previous generation. So without that video, I'd still be looking out the window. I wouldn't even be thinking about it, even inner circle. I'd just be wondering, where is the next meal coming from? Because it's just been responsible for so many things. Yeah, and that came as a surprise, by the way, when Russell did that, what he actually said, because it's not like I taught him how to tell stories. What he says in the book was, I used to think I was good at telling stories because I'd been doing it for quite a while. And then I met a guy named Michael Haig and then he took my, my six stage approach to story and then he evolved it or developed it to meet his approach and incorporated that into ClickFunnels, which is the company that's now worth close to a billion dollars, I guess. But if you know ClickFunnels, that's the story approach that they use for that, for entrepreneurs.

What do you think are some of the mistakes or in your conversation with Russell, what he took away from you? What are some of the problems? Maybe you see entrepreneurs trying to market themselves with a story and what are some of the missing links that we need to have in those kind of stories?

Yeah, it's hard to say. There are problems that I can think of unique to entrepreneurs because there are certain mistakes that I think all presenters and speakers fall victim to when it comes to a story. Number one, since I've already talked about conflict, you can't have conflict if there's not a goal. And when you tell a story, you want the hero to want something. There has to be some goal, some finish line, which is literally what it is. It's like you're taking us on a journey that has a destination. It's not like jumping in the car and saying, I'm just going to drive around, look at scenery. I've heard those stories, and they don't work. You know, I did this, and this happened. It's like watching people slide to their boring vacation. So there needs to be an objective and it needs to be visible. So when you say, this is what I wanted, then we can picture that. In the story you mentioned where I coached you, Darren, it wasn't just, here are some things that happened to me as a speaker, it was no, I wanted to give this speech, and I wanted to do so well that it would elevate my career. So we were rooting for you to cross that finish line. So there's that, and then it's making it too complicated. This is another frequent storyteller problem. Doesn't matter if you're screenwriter, speaker, writer, whatever. It's just stay focused on that goal and keep it simple and straight. Now, the one thing on the other side that I think Russell and everybody latches onto on that video and from my approach is the idea of the inner journey. And the point of that is, what that means is it's the transformation the character takes. The hero takes on the inside because they've had to find the courage to achieve that vision that's sort of on the outside. And this is something that can exponentially increase the impact of your story and your speech if you're willing to go to the level of what was I afraid of? What is this character terrified of emotionally? It's not like I'm afraid of snakes or afraid of fire heights or something like that. No, it's. What is that wound from the past that we suffered that now we are afraid of doing things like. Afraid of connecting with others, afraid of asking for the things we want, afraid of standing up for what we believe in regardless of the consequences, afraid of extending what we think our limits are, afraid of going against what Mommy and Daddy taught. I mean, there's a wealth of them, but we've all experienced those. But when you can convey in the story what the inner fear is, I guess fear is always there. What the fear is that is stopping the character, that is keeping the character stuck. And what your fear was if you're telling your own story when you face that challenge. Because at the end of the day, usually the thing that stops us from getting what we want mostly are our own fear. We like to blame it on the outside world. But it's usually that if entrepreneurs are willing to go to that emotional level and not just stay on the business accomplishment level, if you will, then they're going to have a deeper impact and still be able to develop their business better by doing that. It doesn't stay. It's. It's not either or. It doesn't stand in the way of getting clients or whatever they're trying to do. It enhances that possibility.

And now when I show. Mark's heard me tell this story before, when I show the picture of me holding the trophy next to my two coaches, I used to say, here's a cool moment in my life, but now because of what I've learned for you, I say, but understand what was going on inside. I had to learn my way into the identity because I had never won anything in my life. This is not who I was. On the outside, I got a trophy. But on the inside it was this turmoil and this struggle that this was the culmination of this I'm not good enough feeling inside of me. It took time to adjust to that.

Yeah, I'll give a quick example of this entrepreneur and going to that level. I got a call from a client or someone who became a client named Al Zennet. He was a high net worth, as they say, another inner circle. I don't belong to a high net worth investment advisor. He had a company, a big company. He was CEO and founder and it was big. And he'd tell with all these people. And he heard me. He hadn't heard the video. He's one of the few. He heard me speak at an event. He came up and said, I really need your help. I've got to give a speech at MIT in two weeks. And he said, I'm used to speaking, but I always talk about T bills and mutual funds and all those terms that financiers have that I don't understand. He said. And I was all excited because this is like top Fortune 500 executives getting to speak and it's a big honor. And they told me the topic is courage. He said, I don't know anything about courage. Can you help me? He had put together some stories and what he did with my urging and on his own, he was coming up with stories that he thought involved courage. And so I coached him. It was a keynote that was going to have three different stories in it. And so they were all about him and how he had become courageous. I said, first of all, you can't do that. One was a story about him as a Child. And I said, your father should be the character who has courage in that, and you learn from that. And another one should be about a client you've had who found courage. And then one could be about you and the courage you found. And so we worked on that, and he gave the speech, and he got like, a standing ovation. It was just a big success. Here's the aftermath that I want to say. He went to this event with no intent or concern or thought that, well, I'm going to do this. This is going to be good for business. He just wanted the honor of it. People were so taken by the speech and by these stories he told that they lined up saying, how can I work with you? And he signed in his testimony, he said he signed thousands of dollars in work, thousands of dollars from clients because he told these stories and never pitched a thing, never even had any intent. It's not like. And I'm selling in the back of the room. It's just they were so emotionally involved and connected to him. They thought, this is somebody I want to work with. Wow.

That takes the phrase facts tell, stories sell to a whole new level. Michael, good story I know of. Ken had gone in a deeper direction, and our time is fast, fleeting. But I want to ask you what may seem to be a very basic question that perhaps you have heard from other clients in the past with regard to how detailed so many people decide to make their stories. They want to tell you the sun was shining. There was a blue jay, a wren and a robin purse on a mailbox outside walking to the park. It was a dachshund and a Lhasa apso with a beautiful girl. But they haven't got to the point of the story. They paint the scene. Because many of us have been taught you've got to paint the scene first. How would an emerging speaker find balance in detail and what might be considered peripheral information when telling a story?

Yeah, it was funny the whole time you were saying that, I was thinking to myself, this is a story. You should ask Mark Brown because he to master at detail that sets the stage. First of all, it's absolutely essential. Here's the idea I give. Here's the method I suggest to people. When you think of a scene in the story, the opening scene, and it's critical that you pick one moment to start the story, to paint a picture of the character. Not paint a picture in the way you said, but to establish the character and what the character's everyday life is before they start. Start this journey. So imagine where is this character? Where were you? Or where are you going to say you were at the start of the story? And imagine taking a picture of it or a movie clip of that moment. Okay. And then write down everything you can think of. Okay, what? Write down the blue jay, Write down the mailbox, Write down looking out the window. Write down what the person's wearing, what this is, what. Get it all down. Okay. Then say, what are the two or no more than three details out of all of these possible details that do the best to convey who this person is at this point and ideally how they are stuck in some way or what their pain is in some way. Because it's not about, you know, you're not a cinematographer there, you're not trying. That's not what painting a picture means. It's probably not the best phrase because it's more like, how can I, as succinctly and clearly as possible, convey who this person is without saying, this is who I was, this is what I was feeling. And without just succumbing totally to physical description? Because when we're talking about details, I said take a picture. But this is a magic camera that you get sound and smell and all those other things. And so my sort of short rule is no more than three details about any setting or any character when they're introduced. If it's the right three. And it doesn't have to be that.

Many for some speakers. If you're not familiar with the world succinctly, you might have to look it up. But I love the idea.

Did I say succinctly?

Yes. Keep it tight. Succinctly.

Keep it succinctly, Keep it tight.

But I love that you darened it down. Just three details. Just three details. Perfect. Now there's no excuses. We're going to be like, did you listen to that episode with Michael Hay? Go back and listen, Michael. I hope that people seriously who are serious about this will reach out to you and work with you one on one. Absolutely. If they can't afford legendary coaching. One of the things that we're so fortunate is the second week of every month you do a story call. Story coaching with Michael Davis and it's the two Michaels. It's a live call. It's for our members. It's part of our membership. What are some of the comments? Common problems you see in those stories when you're coaching our members.

Let me think.

Okay.

Every once in a while I do actually stop to breathe and think. Not often. I don't like to make A habit of it.

Write down the D, the first one.

That comes to mind. And it's not even really my arena, so to speak, but it has more to do with what you guys are masters of, and that is delivery. But that is confusing emotion with emoting. And it is so frequent to me, and it's not limited to that call. And by the way, I'd love for everybody to come to that coaching call because we're generally always coach two people on a story they bring in. And it's a lot of fun and people really seem to take a lot from it because I can talk theory, I have lots of charts and lists and so on, but when you see it in action, then it's a lot different. But what I mean by emoting is when the person giving the speech is telling a story and they're in a very extreme way acting out the emotion they're feeling. Okay, so it's almost like silent movies. And I was so worried and I loved her so much and so on. And Mark, again, when we've coached together on stage, one of the things I've seen you do more than once and the way you do it is so powerful, is you'll take the person who's just given the speech, you'll sit down opposite them and say, just tell me this as if we're having coffee. Just talk about what was going on. Forget that story you were telling me. Just talk. And you get them to bring way down. So it is like a conversation because to me, a good story is in some ways like a conversation. It's more like, Darren, you're not going to believe what happened to me. And if I'm with Darren, even in person, I'm going to say, you're not going to believe this amazing thing that happened.

I would do that.

I would do that. I'm being so mean here. I'm overdrawn. But it's that idea that I've got to emote. I don't know a better way to say it. It comes from 40 years in Hollywood and seen a lot of acting classes too. Because actors know that the way to get the best performance is not to think about what they're feeling and try and convey it. It's to feel it, to just be. It's like you're in front of the camera and to just. I am that person that I am portraying and I'm feeling what they're feeling. And so the camera will pick up whatever I look like if I'm actually feeling that on the inside. Okay? So not technically putting together a story, but I see that often. One other one and this, It'd be interesting if you guys agree with this or not. But I'm so story oriented and that is stepping on your own story by interrupting it to give your message. I'm not even fond of speeches that start with the message and then go into a story. I like speeches that just start right out and say, it was a dark and stormy night. Don't start with that, but go right into the story and let us decide, discover what it is. But even if you're going to set it up because you did that, Darren, in your prize winning speech, you don't just start with a story. You ask us, have we ever been in that situation? But you do it so well. I can't contradict that. It's just a great speech. But so often people will be telling a story and then the speaker will stop and say, did you ever feel like that? Or you see, sometimes you can have a little aside to the audience, that's okay, but. And at that point I realized that and I was feeling like this when this happened. And you know, we all should do this and haven't finished the story. What it does is it takes us out of that world that you've created with your story, snatches us back into reality. And now it's. I mean, think about movies, because that's all I ever do. You don't go to a movie. Luke Skywalker never stopped in the middle and said, now when we talk about the force, you people, what we're talking about is the strength we all have. You wouldn't want to see that movie 40 times. It's just let the story be the story, let it carry it. And then you can amplify whatever your message is after the story's over.

Wow, Michael, this has been so much. I have to pick on Darren very quickly because you said, don't confuse emotion with emoting. What he means is, darren, we must dispense with the histrionics and just be honest.

Okay, now I gotta go look up histrionics. Come on.

I'm sorry.

You're not sorry. There is no sorrow. You are not emoting sorrow at all.

I'll toss you this one, Darren. Another quality of a really good story is the language is simple.

Thank you.

Thank you. Mark came out of Hollywood too. One of the first things I heard when I got to Hollywood, I was going to film school. I hear these people say, talk about everything when they talk about screenwriting. Somebody said your screenplay Must be readable to someone in high school, which nowadays means someone in junior high school. Because people are not looking in Hollywood for a wordsmith. They want to know what happens. They want to know the action and the characters. There you go. So you're off the hook. You don't need to know big words like succinct histrionics. And.

That'S just one more way of saying all this dramatic behavior that's really overdone. You don't need for all of that. But Michael, I can't thank you enough for giving us your time today. I want to be sure if any of our listeners slash viewers want to get a hold of you. How would they do that?

Well, I have something better. I have something free they can have. Is it okay for me to offer a little free thing? I was talking briefly about the six step process that I use when I develop a story or help someone develop a story. Darren mentioned my website, storymastery.com okay, so you can go there and you can find out about working with me. Lots of information about storytelling. It's free, and articles I've written.

And Michael, Michael, let me jump in and you'll see there the quote from Will Smith. No one is better than Michael Haig at finding what is most authentic in every moment of a story.

So if you go to storymastery.com, put a/numeral, six steps. If you enter that into the URL, it will take you to a place and you can get a chart laying out these six steps and an ebook that explains it and gives a good example of that. So a little storymastery.com Six Steps.

Right.

The people who are listening to the podcast just go to storymastery.com forward/the number six followed by steps. Mark Brown, what do we got for keepers?

Let me breathe here.

Keepers. Keys to creating conflict are sympathy, jeopardy and likability. We connect through the shared experience of pain and longing, which means we must look for situations in our lives where we face struggle and experience pain. Now, he says in the story, you're allowed to brag if you set yourself up to fail first. It's a good qualifier. What we always say, Darren, the purpose of a story is to elicit emotion. And the quick quote is follow the pain. By the way, you can learn so much when you see the weaknesses in your speeches and in the speeches of others. And remember for your hero, they must have a visible objective. And the inner journey, the inner fear, the inner conflict can exponentially improve the impact of our story. Keys to establishing your character. Take a picture of a scene, write everything down and then pick two or three details to convey the identity of the character. And, and pick one moment to establish that character clearly in the minds of your viewers and listeners. And do not confuse emotion with emoting. Dispense with the histrionics. Back to you, Darren.

That was amazing. Where did you hear all of that? I love that stuff.

It's what we do every week, my friend.

Thank you. Yeah, that was cool. It sounded like I really said something. So thank you. Thank you for that.

And Mark, also remember it has to be true, but it doesn't have to be factual. Factual. Bam. Michael Haig, thank you for joining us. It's a thrill to have you as part of stage time. But just I love hearing you talk about story.

I love this. This was so much fun. I knew it would be.

And this is Mark and I pretend that we're in the inner circle with you because you, you're in the circle with Will Smith. We don't need Kevin Bacon. We've got our two degrees of separation. Separation.

There you go, there you go, there you go.

Well, friends, again, a great joy for us to have Michael Hague with us. Don't forget now, every week we are here with our unforgettable presentations. Tune in every week because the more you listen, the more you learn. We want you to be good, we want you to be great, but most of all, we want you to be unforgettable. We'll catch you next week.

Make sure you subscribe to our show.

Remember to subscribe because if you miss a week, you miss a lot.

If you like this episode, please leave us a review. If you want to get more from Mark and Darren, check out Stagetime University where they provide experienced presenters a proven path and world class feedback. To become the speaker everyone is talking about, go to stagetimeuniversity.com join us next week. If you're going to take the time to prepare a presentation, make it unforgettable.