Ep. 58 How To Be Unforgettable Off Balance With Dan Thurmon

Hey, Darren lacoy. How are you today, my friend?

I'm doing awesome.

Listen, today we get to meet a man I consider to be a legend. I have so many different connections to this man, and his skill outlasts anything that I've seen before. We're going to hear from a man named Dan Thurman today. A past NSA president who's very unique, very unusual, and a great guy, and I can't wait to unleash him on our audience. Darren, let's meet this man, this legend, Dan Thurman.

Anyone can give a presentation. Few deliver unforgettable presentations. What's the difference? You're about to find out. Welcome to the Unforgettable Presentations podcast with your hosts, world champion speakers and coaches, Mark Brown.

Mark Brown, your life tells a story, and there's someone out there who needs to hear it.

And Darren Lacroix. And Darren lacroix.

Stage time. Stage time.

Stage time.

Ready for some powerful presentation, AHAs. Let's dive right in.

Hey, Darren, I know you've been known to use illustrations, and you're most known in the Toastmasters world for falling on your face on stage. And people wonder, didn't he get hurt? And I knew the secret. You had knee pads. That's crazy. Our guest today has gone way beyond falling on his face. He goes up, he goes down, he goes sideways. He juggles medieval tools, man. It's gonna be so exciting, dude.

Like, doing a handstand during a speech is one thing. Doing a handstand on a lectern, Come on. There's no one that's ever seen him speak that has not not remembered. Like, he is the epitome of unforgettable. What's cool, though, is it's not like a gimmick. It's part of his message. So that's why I'm thrilled to have you here. Dan Thurman. Hey, welcome.

Thank you, Darren. Thank you, Mark. It's so good to be with great friends like you guys. And thanks for introducing me to your amazing following on the podcast.

Well, listen, the thrill is ours. You know, the first time I saw you present, I thought, how in the world does he do all these things? And I realized everything you do connects to a message you want to give to the audience. And before I dive too deeply in, I've got to share some personal connections, because six years ago, 2014, I had the privilege of being the NSA Youth Convention Co chair, and I met Maggie Thurman. And Darren, no lie. Within about nine seconds, I knew this girl was special. Everyone was just around her. She was so magnetic. I said, that's Dan's girl.

And.

And having a chance to work with her as a co chair and then as a youth chair, it was just really, really powerful. Because here's the thing. I'm a dad myself, and I saw the impact of good parenting on a young person. But a question came to mind. I'm saying, her dad does all these crazy things on stage. What does she think of that? What does the family think of that? Don't they get scared? So I gotta ask you, Dan, when you do these amazing things on stage, we. What does your kids tell you when they're young? Seeing dad juggling medieval tools and knives and axes, what do they say about that?

Well, growing up with it, I don't think it was unusual. To them, it became very ordinary to see dad engaged in various stunts or environments. I think the most special aspect is the company of people that we keep, such as you guys and the National Speakers association, but also circus friends I've known and grown up with for my lifetime and. And stunt people and, you know, so it provided a lot of interesting travel opportunities, educational opportunities, experimentation with trapeze and all these other skills most kids don't have access to. And like, for example, when Maggie was Tinkerbell in the school play of Peter Pan, I got to literally go down to Florida and work with one of the top stuntmen and stunt directors in the film business, who let me borrow his flying rig and flying equipment. And so I became like the fly guy and flew Peter Pan and Tinker Bel for the school show. And so we actually did a family conversation, sort of a meeting, where we had a whole conversation storyboarded back in 2016. And the whole idea was 2020, and what do we want to be in 2020? We played off the 2020 vision thing, and we actually asked the kids, what do you enjoy most about being in the family? About being a part of this family, which I think is a really great conversation for every parent and family to have. And one of the top things that came up was we really enjoy the opportunity to do a variety of things that are different from what normal people can do. And that was very validating because my son Eddie, who's also incredible and exceptional in his own way, I tried to guide him into the world of performing and juggling and unicycling, which he can do. Everyone in my family knows how to juggle, knows how to unicycle, has those skills, but he never saw it as a performing thing. Even Though, like, I know this could be an incredibly lucrative way for him to earn money through high school and to pay for college and do some of the things that I did. And one day we asked him why he didn't do it. Actually, Charlie Plum, who's another unforgettable speaker, asked Eddie, hey, do you want to follow in your dad's footsteps? And I listened up and Eddie's comment. He was 16 at the time, and his words were so just powerful and mature. He said, no, I don't think so. He said, I think when you decide to do that, you have a responsibility to go further than your dad did in their profession and field. And I don't want to try to do that.

Wow.

And in an instant, it was both completely illuminating, it made perfect sense. And it was this huge compliment that my son was saying to me, dad, I respect what you've done with your life and your work, and I'm going to try to blaze my own trail because I don't want to try to emulate or draft off of what you did anyway. I know that's way more than you asked, Mark, but I think it's the example of what we live, and it's more about how we embrace our work rather than the type of work that you do that really sets the example for your kids.

I know that question kind of puts our listeners into the middle because they're wondering, acrobat Circus, Where'd this all come from? So take us back, because we know you as a presenter who's powerful, who uses these tools, but take us back to the beginning, from the whole acrobatic piece and how you bridged that into speaking. And what was the reason why you chose that transition?

Sure. Well, it started in the beginning with me being the most incredibly hyperactive, energetic kid you can imagine. I know that's not a surprise to you guys who know me so well. I was getting in trouble in school, but I was also making good grades. I would have, I'm sure, been diagnosed add, but that wasn't done back then. So instead, I was actually at a Renaissance festival with my mother. My mother's an artist, and all her life has been creating artwork, paintings. This is one of her paintings here from more recently, but she had an art studio in the basement, taught classes, and did a mail order business for pet portraits. And we would do these different shows and festivals. And mom always taught me, it doesn't matter what you do. What matters is how you do it. And. And any vocation can be an expression of art. An expression of life. So that was really important. At that Renaissance fair, I met a juggler who taught me to juggle, and that became this channel for my energy. I started performing with him almost right away and learning how to be comfortable in front of audiences. Before I knew it, at like, 12 years old, 13 years old, I was developing a show, and I was getting laughs and getting all this attention for something very positive in my life, which was different because I was getting trouble previously for the same qualities, but now I found a different way to flip it. And suddenly I was getting affirmation. It was different. It was unique. So obviously, I leaned into that. I developed my show, and I started earning money. Really quite. You know, before I got to high school, I had a show, and I was doing all these events in and around the Chicago area. And then I came to Georgia, and in one, when I graduated college or high school, my parents. It was the most perfect sales clothes you could ever imagine. They said this to me, dan, you're doing really well with this entertainment business of yours. I'll bet if you paid for your own college education, it'll be that much more meaningful.

Oh, that's not fair.

Isn't that perfect?

I bet I totally went for it. I was like, yeah, that sounds good. So I got a business degree, and I went to college, growing my own business from this juggling show to an entertainment company where I was actually producing other events and taking on bigger contracts. And it was amazing because I got to be sort of my own case study for how to run a business. And I also began to become exposed to other speakers and authors and great people who had the wisdom and the guidance. And I saw the connections between what I always felt I was and what I was doing in speaking or in performing. And I said, you know what? I want to combine positive teaching, messaging, business, education, life education into my show. And then I learned about the National Speakers association from our buddy Shep Hyken. And from the very beginning, here's the commitment that I made. I said, even though I have all these entertainment abilities, never for a second do I want those to upstage what I'm trying to teach or what I'm trying to communicate. Because at some point, the tricky thing about these skills is that you can become the person who amazes your audience and does the impossible. Impossible is also unattainable when what I want to teach my audience is greatness is within them. They can apply these principles, their life ambitions, their chosen profession, their excellence, in their way, is every bit as impressive. As my representation of excellence through my skills and stunts. And so it's just a really interesting line to walk between captivating your audience but not becoming the center of attention.

I've always loved your message of living life off balance. Cause we kept hearing about balance, balance, balance, balance. And you're like, no, that's not the truth. And I was like, oh. It's like I needed to hear that. To just. To release. To release. To be able to be me, have my passion, do what I want to do, and it's okay. And yet I still got to worry about the other parts of my life.

So I want me to show you that real quick just so your audience can see what we're talking about.

Yeah, please do. Yeah.

All right. So here in our studio, we actually have multiple spaces, multiple stages. This is our response to virtual. Because everything that I do is about the mind, the body, and the spirit being in alignment. And, yeah, my uniqueness is I'm known for bringing a little extra to the equation. And so, just as you said, I wrote this book off balance on purpose. And the reason is, balance is never what you achieve. You don't achieve perfect balance. Balance is what you do. We're balancing all the time. Where do we put our attention, our energy, our focus at any given moment? And it's like this lectern, like you mentioned, Darren. It's like the foundations of our world in 2020 have been rocked in so many ways. And what we thought was so solid and stable has been revealed to be precarious and shifting and moving, and uncertainty is everywhere and forever. So the question is, how do you position yourself on top of uncertainty? Here we go. Wow. There you go, guys.

Wow.

And so, if you're watching, you can see I'm not balanced. Right. I'm balancing. I'm making adjustments and corrections, and I'm working really hard. And after all that work, I'm still right here. I haven't really gone anywhere. And that is the truth of life. Balance isn't what you get. Balance is what you do. So here's a couple things. This is an example of that message personified. That's an unforgettable moment, right? But yet, if I were just to do a handstand on a lectern and dazzle my audience, there would be no connection to that message. So I've got to spend a lot of time on the front end setting up the whole reason why I'm doing this, but then also on the back end, because they're not going to forget this guy. Did a handstand on a lectern. So I have to, as a presenter, through my words and actions, link that vital message to their lives. Not to my life, not to my ability, but to how this could be useful to them. And then that's what opens the door for the rest of the teaching that's to come. Wow.

Well done. And for those of you just listening to the podcast, go check it out on YouTube because that was amazing. We went. He's like. He went from the anchor desk to the weatherman into his other studio and did exactly what we were talking about earlier. And I also love the fact that you're wobbling the lectern to show us that it's not stable. You just have such a great way with not only the illustration, but like you said, the importance. I think some speakers, they want to use that gimmick and then they don't realize, okay, you got their attention. But now it's that connection to the message and that's our responsibility.

Yeah, every nuance, and as you know, those nuances are discovered through repetition and through. Every time you have it in front of an audience, you can learn something new about what works and hone the timing a little bit more carefully and really condense it. Because what makes any speech or any segment of a speech super powerful is that you're not wasting any time, you're not wasting any words. It's just everything is there and it's essential that it's there to support everything else.

Now, I gotta take this whole off balance thing to another level here, Dan, because I'm wondering, was there something prophetic in you writing this book and it becoming so significant now? In the last six months, the whole world has been off balance. Did you foresee that coming? I have no idea. But what I'm really impressed with is not only did you does your message, is it valid now, but it's almost tailor made for you to show the world through what you do that we can live our lives off balance because so many of us are off balance. Did you consider this? I know it's very negative or pandemic, but did you consider it somewhat fortuitous or advantageous, like God gave you an opportunity by what you do to really magnify the message?

The message has been relevant in my life for as long as I conceived it. And really I wrote it because of a response to the conversation that was happening around balance. My clients were saying balance is really important to our organization. That was the end of their strategy. You know, we want our People to have really successful lives and also to work extremely hard and reach their goals. Well, that's really nice. Yeah. Good job, guys. And so that got me asking, well, is balance the goal? And that whole kind of thing took this turn. So off balance on purpose. It means a lot of things. And I'll get back to your question about this year in just a second. It means that balance is not what you get, it's what you do. It means work and life are not two different parts of a life or two different separate lives. They're part of the same life. In fact, I break it down to five different spheres. Your work, your relationship, your health, your spirit, and your personal interests and passions and how all those are connected in this idea of a pattern. And I use a juggling metaphor with the five balls in the air and this concept of the infinity sign and how they're all connected. So there's a body of work about how literally to integrate your life in a more sustainable way. But, Yeah, I mean, 2020, that idea of how everything in your life is really connected to everything else has been so. Not just theoretical, but it's been practical. And we've been immersed in this. We're working from home, our kids are going to school. We're having negotiations over the table space because of who's on which zoom meeting and when the next thing's starting. And please be quiet. I've got to do this business call. And everything is compressed together, and we're doing everything so differently. So I would say I don't think that it was prophetic. I think it was recognizing that change happens forever. We can lead through that change in a very personal way. We can be more congruent with how we live our life and represent that, and we can help the people around us. I was able to pivot to messages about resilience, about how to use the positive aspects of uncertainty in order to grow, and being very prescriptive about that course of learning and growth that you want to take on during this time of challenge. And so that was. It was helpful, and I'm very grateful that I think I got to help a lot of people this year. And I'm still doing it. So, yeah, I'm where I need to be.

Well, I know God wants to follow up with a question, but before I let him ask that question, I gotta touch on one thing. Knowing that the scope of your work involves huge stages, unicycles, axes, and balls, and I mean, do all these things, you are now restricted in our minds. That little Box called a computer screen. But yet you have found a way to do side handstands off ropes falling under the ceiling. What was the process like? And I asked this question deliberately because many of us are trying to do the pivot thing during the pandemic. Somebody who needs a large stage. The first thought is, oh my gosh, Dan can't do what Dan normally does. What was your process to make it work now, despite the restriction of an 18 inch computer screen?

Sure, yeah. And it was interesting because it's all about perspective. My initial perspective was I was reluctant to do anything with webinars or this is pre Covid. I said, I don't want to do a webinar. I don't want to do a live event on screen, on camera, because I'm the performer guy. I love being in front of audiences and engaging their energy. Okay, well, when there's no audiences and no stages and no travel guy, like, who are you now and how are you going to help people? And so the perspective shifted and I thought, how do I do this and still represent my brand, still represent what people expect? Because from Dan Thurman, what they want is something more. They want something extra. They want to be deeply moved. They want to see that physical connection. And so we created a space where we went all in and we decided this right away. And so there's actually three different sets. We had the video room, the video space. For the past two years or so we've been using this for pre recorded video. But we said, no, this is now a digital broadcasting studio. And we created three spaces. And so for your podcast listeners, I'm sitting now in one that looks kind of like my library. And it really is. This is where I come to, to think, to read, to write, to meditate. This is a lovely space. And then I've got the action room where I was doing the handstand earlier, where I do juggling segments. You mentioned the rope falling from the ceiling, various other things. That's where I can physicalize a lot of what I talk about. And then the third space is actually over here. And this is a classroom space. Right. So I can, I can teach in this direction to the camera on a digital flipboard, and also here to this camera which gives me this beautiful angle and this beautiful connectedness to the audience. And so on this you can write in real time. You can highlight various things like, for example, we talk about certainty and uncertainty and how do you operate from this place of some certainty and embrace these strategies to really grow on this positive Trajectory. And so this is just really phenomenal in terms of a teaching tool. But it's all super intentional as well, guys. Because what it enables me to do is really move to a space for a reason, for a purpose. And I started to think about different references, like, even from my upbringing, Mr. Rogers neighborhood, Bozo's Circus, like these places that seem so amazing and that you could suspend your disbelief and just go along for a ride. I thought, this is so great. There's things I can do here that I could never do live and on stage. And so, anyway, so. So basically, it's been a lot of fun. In fact, we had virtual meetings, I think can be actually more personal and more efficient and more effective because of this medium. If you can learn how to engage your audience deeper by looking into a camera lens. I started to have to think about, what have I done all my life that's prepared me for this moment? I've been on so many screens in the past and cameras. I've produced a weekly video, a coaching video for the past three and a half years, every single week. So I've logged a lot of time and a lot of hours looking at a camera lens. And so I know how to emote to an audience. And everybody's going through this, right? So it's still a level playing field. It's just a different game. And we can stand out if we embrace this and then bring our uniqueness to it. Not to take you down this road or a different workshop about virtual presentation skills, but also I wanted to demonstrate to you and to your listeners that we do have this capability to take an audience actually on a ride. It's a lot of fun.

Dan, what would your advice be to somebody who's having challenges emoting to the lens? Like, what advice would you give?

So it's counterintuitive, and you really need to understand why you're struggling and also say this is very normal and natural, because we've been told and taught that we have to look to our audiences for feedback and that we want to connect with them. And the way you connect with a human being is by looking at them. So I want to look at you guys in your screen, and I'm looking down here at your pictures, right? And that makes me feel more connected to you, but it makes you feel less connected to me. And so you really have to love that lens, which means you're looking deeply into that camera lens. And so the rule that I would teach you guys is 100% of the time, 100% of the time that you're talking, you look in that lens. You want to maintain eye contact with your audience. We've been told that you don't trust somebody who doesn't look at you when they talk to you. Right. And so it's not about you looking at them. It's about giving them the ability to look into your eyes and to see your intention. And that's the other thing, is that the camera sees everything. And so it's so important that you have it in your heart, I truly mean this, that you have a sense of purpose. Because if you're thinking, oh, I hope I get through this okay, or I hope that I can fool them with my presentation and not screw it up too bad, whatever's going on in your head, the lens sees that. That's the difference between stage acting and camera acting. On camera, actors can literally have a thought, and then the audience knows exactly what they were thinking. The camera doesn't miss anything. And. And so it's so important that you are on purpose, that you are connected to that mission and meaning. And for me, it's like a desperate desire. When I'm on the edge of my chair and I'm looking in that lens, it's like, it's so important and essential to me that I can reach you and that you get this. And when that's your intention, then you're connected. Even though for you, it doesn't feel right, it doesn't feel natural at all. Does that help?

Yeah.

We've got to retrain ourselves. Like you said, for a lot of people, it's brand new to be able to do, you know, to have to do this. And one of the things that I want to go back to, for everyone listening, just to emphasize where this started, it started with Dan asking him that question, how can I. How do we. How do I bring my brand and what I do over to this new platform? It's still helping people. It's still doing what you do. So it's. Is that question mark?

Yeah, I think that's been on many people's minds. And, Dan, maybe you can speak to this for the individuals who are new and emerging, who are just getting their legs under them, and then, boom, the pandemic hits. And you said, initially, I don't wanna do this. It's not for me. How would you encourage someone who's now feeling less confident because they were not that confident to begin with, and now we're dealing with, okay, no stages. What advice do you give those new and emerging speakers who say Dan, I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing. I don't know how to handle this. How would you advise them?

Well, okay, so the first thing I would say is I don't want to let anything that we've done here discourage you because you don't need five cameras, three sets and a multimedia switcher. And a producer who's actually Stephanie is backstage right now watching us and she's doing all the camera switching. You don't need that to convey a great message or to really help someone or get your content across, but you do need the skill. The skill is so much more important. And good lighting, good sound, obviously. And a camera. A good camera. I would say this might be a time for you to retrench a little bit and revisit your message. And maybe what I could could teach you if I could go back to the board really quick. Sure. And I'm going to take you through something really quickly because when we think about speaking and this is your on camera Persona. Right? This concept of. And by the way, this is some of the stuff we were just talking about here. Love the lens. Intention matters. Presume positive. You got to always presume that what you're getting across is what the audience and intended. Don't spend a lot of time virtually on your slide deck. Try to go for more that personal connection bouncing and out of your slide deck. Don't waste anybody's time and understand that everything counts. Like all your experiences watching other presenters on video serve you now every. Every time that you've logged on camera. So you got to put in that time and leverage confidence and past experience to reach your on camera Persona, which is your version of yourself. So this is probably the most important beginner idea that I could give you is we've been told that there's this line here where we have content and we have entertainment value or engagement, whatever it is. And that just putting this there, you can start to think about, are you more of a content driven speaker, Entertainment driven speaker? And you almost immediately start to plot yourself somewhere along this line. But the reality is that this is stupid. That is not correct at all. Because content and entertainment value are not mutually exclusive. They have to be mutually supportive. And that's the whole notion and the expertise and the lifelong journey of being a great communicator and a phenomenal speaker and running a business and reaching people and reaching your audiences, whether they be in congregations or boardrooms or huge auditoriums. And so you guys know how this goes. When we break that down into Instead of a linear graph, but a XY chart. And so we have. Instead of content, I want you to think of it as relevant content. And this is the key. It's not about what you know. It's about how what you know impacts your audience. What problems do you solve? It's not about your story. I mean, you may have this most amazing story, and it's really interesting and fascinating, but in truth, I've got a lot going on, so I don't really care about your story unless it somehow connects to my story and helps me. And so that's the big question. What's relevant now? And that's where we need to spend a lot of time right now, thinking about, what is it we have to teach? What problems do you solve? And then entertainment is not just entertainment. It's engagement. It's. It's. How do you immerse your audience in an experience? So all those are kind of the better way to think about what that E means. So you could be the kind of person, like me who comes from the entertainment world, and you've developed these skills about how to reach an audience and how to connect with them and watch into their eyes and understand the exchange of energy. And you're saying, okay, well, what do I have to teach and how do I get into that content experience? What problems can I solve? You might be somebody who comes from the world where you have this great background in terms of education or body of work or philosophy or a model that you teach or whatever it is, and you're saying, well, I need to just be more engaging with my audiences. I need to do that. Or you could be the person who. Who's down here who says, I don't really have a lot of either. I just know that I want to do this. I know that I want to impact audiences in meaningful ways. But that's great because it really means the concept is, how do I grow my relevant content? At the same time, I'm learning more about my entertainment experience or my engagement factor or the experience that I create for an audience. And you can grow both kind of simultaneously in that area, because let me tell you guys, it's here that people are successful and have long careers and make a big difference and earn bigger fees and become unforgettable. This is what's unforgettable in its nutshell. It impacted my life in a way that I felt. It was so authentic and it was about me. It was relevant and useful, and I'll never forget it because it was this experience that swept Me up. So if you're a new speaker, back to your question. You got to be thinking about Runway, because this is a long journey. This is not something you do quickly. This is something you commit your life to doing, because you're always going to be learning the next level, the next step. And so are you up for that challenge? Most people aren't successful. Most people can't do this as a way that really gives them the totality of their dreams, because they're not committed to how hard it is. It's hard. So are you really up for this journey? So that's the big question. And then how long is that Runway that you have to really go through this process now? Or do you maybe focus on some other things to take care of your family and earn a living? Because I don't know that it's necessarily the best time to start a speaking career. But I do know the opportunities are there, and I do know it's a level playing field. So if you can embrace this and if you can find your entry point, you could say, you know what? The barrier to entry is really very low. And if I can get to a place where I can understand what I have to teach and its value and I know how to do it effectively, then I could be right up there and right in the game right away. So just be honest, be authentic, and don't fool yourself that it's going to be easy, because it's not.

Yeah, we spoke, Dan, I think you know Jennifer Joseph Lear, and. Yeah, the Speaker Agent Bureau. And when we were talking to her and we interviewed her, and she said, it's actually a great opportunity now for somebody to skip a couple levels if they're just getting started, if they do exactly what you were talking about. Because when we know in 2001, the industry changed in 2008, it was challenging for a lot of people. And I have mentors from back then who I looked up to, had amazing businesses. They didn't shift, and they were gone a couple years later. They just kind of petered out. And it's just like, now's the opportunity. But even for people who are relevant now, you get a change to remain relevant.

That's a really good point. And at some point, you get discouraged because of your previous success, and you feel like, I don't want to start over. Right. Just starting now. In a way, it's a bit of a gift, because you can say, all right, I'm not burdened by knowing how this used to work. I'm not burdened by it how it works.

Now I want to shift gears for a second because I. We always ask whoever we sit down with, when you were getting started, the speakers that you saw, who did you think was unforgettable? And why were they unforgettable to you back in the day?

Oh, wow. So my first experience with the National Speakers association at a national level was 1994, Washington, D.C. the privilege of the platform. And there were several speakers. Speakers. I mean, it was such an amazing event. It blew my mind. I literally went away knowing what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. It had that impact on me. I had to. I just have such a reverence for the power of the spoken word. And when you see someone who wastes no time and wastes no words and just has such clarity about what they're trying to teach you, it really blows your mind. And I exhibited that with several of those mainstage speakers. Jerry Coffey was the opening keynote. Just blew my mind. Zig Ziglar spoke Peter Lague. Over the years, I've connected with other people who tie in some other element, like Mike Rayburn, who's a very close personal friend of mine. Mike brings guitar into his work, and we're actually very close friends and part of a mastermind now for almost 15 years, where we help each other really understand this dynamic between engaging an audience and teaching an audience. And how do you do both simultaneously, and what does that look like? And also, I've looked to people who weren't necessarily speakers per se, but. But just great leaders and great speakers, just communicators in general in life. And the principles that have really impacted me. I know you're looking for probably specific names. I remember seeing Dr. Tony Campolo at an early NSA convention. And just the power that he had wielding words to cut to the heart of the manor and teach his audience were just enormously powerful.

I remember him saying when he was talking about bringing the young girls. And for those of you listening, he's a pastor, and he was talking about sitting them down and having them watch Disney movies because they had never seen it. And it was, say, four girls hiring.

Girls off the street who were little kids who were selling themselves. He would bring them into his hotel and then have them watch cartoons and just basically let them be kids and try to teach them the value of who they were and give them that gift of their humanity back. Another line that. I mean, some things are unforgettable at that point. I didn't even have kids yet. And he said, of course Your kids will rebel. That's their job. And your job is as a parent is to carefully and meticulously prescribe the things for them to rebel against. Because later in life that will be what they return to when they realize their path had its own flaws. And I've never forgotten that line. So when you think about unforgettable words, the succinctness of language, and that's what I'm very proud of, my ability to refine my own language. Each week with my weekly videos. They're two minutes but they go deep, you know, with my audiences on stage. When I call my wife after a successful presentation, like it went really well and I could brag to my wife, but I wouldn't brag this way to other people. I said, honey, it was amazing. I didn't waste any words. So that's the thing that to me is like the mark of reality speaking excellence.

I have to say too, just from my own experience, Naomi Rhodey's privilege of the platform was my very first convention. You know that X the graph that you made where entertaining over here, Highly relevance over there. Well, if you took that zero and you went down to the left, that was where I was when I came to my first. But I remember seeing, and it's so funny that I had the exact same thought as you. I left. Mark knows his story after Captain Coffey's opening and then Ken Needima coming from the stand up comedy world, I never felt like I was one of the guys. I loved them, I did my time, but I went out to the pool after, right after Captain Coffee's program and I wrote a seven page letter to my mother saying for the first time in my life, I found home.

Wow. So for your audience, Ken Mitama is a blind pianist and songwriter, composer who has this God given gift to listen to anything. And then while he's listening to it, he composes a song. So he stands up after the person who just spoke after hearing it the first time and plays a beautiful complete piece of music that has never before existed. And he's just summarized what that person did or said or was most meaningful. And it was talk about unforgettable and also very, very unexpected. Yeah, my first moment at that event, I was there at my first convention representing my chapter. I live in Georgia and they put me forward to be a showcaser which meant I did seven minutes in a little breakout room later in the convention. But when I got there I saw this sign that said speaker orientation room or whatever it was like. And the meeting started 20 minutes ago. And I realized, holy cow, I'm late for this. And I walked in, and it was Zig and George Walther and Naomi Rode and Jack Kemp and like all these other people who. I realized this was like the keynote speaker room. But instead of leaving, I stayed and I just hung out with them. And I went on this tour down the hallway and into the ballroom, and it was incredible. And the fact that they were. They didn't kick me out of the room said a lot about nsa, because it doesn't kind of. It really doesn't matter where you come into this. It's about how you approach it and whether you embody NSA's values and you're willing to work for it, because we want each other to succeed. Very powerful.

You know, right there, that story about being in the wrong room by accident, and you thought you were gonna leave, but you stayed. I think there's something there for our audience, our listeners, about finding yourself in a situation where you could back away. Oh, it's not my place. Or stay and see what benefits come to you. Have you thought about that?

Yeah, I've told that story, and I don't want to. You know, I didn't want to take too much of our time here. But it's very. When I think back on it, it was a pivotal moment. Not only did I stay for the rest of the meeting in the room, but that tour that happened. We were in the Grand Hyatt, or whatever it was, the Hyatt hotel in Washington, D.C. and the room that we were in was just immaculate. And this was the room that the President of the United States used to entertain foreign dignitaries when he didn't use the White House. And so it had this secret entrance in a serpentine hallway, and so that a shooter could not ambush the President. It was curved like this. And down the hallway, there were walls on pictures of the portraits of the presidents and the first ladies of history all the way down. And basically, they said, we're taking you on this tour down this hallway, which will eventually lead to the ballroom. And so I had a second decision to make was, do I leave now or do I jump on the tour? And I remember walking down the hallway with Zig right next to me, bumping into Zig Ziglar, and him looking at me like, why are you here, kid? And I wore a name badge. And back then, they didn't have these VIP ribbons for first timers or anything. You had a big piece of orange tape. You remember that, Darren?

I don't remember the orange tape, it.

Was like orange tape on your badge, which signified, newbie, like, you're the first. You've never been here before. But when we walked into that ballroom and I saw these seasoned pros, Patricia Ball and everyone else, look at this beautiful immaculate room set and the stage decorated with the roses and the trumpets and the flowers and the just. And they were in awe. They were dazzled and delighted and excited and a little nervous, you know. And I thought, if these pros still feel that way after all their years in the business, then this is the business for me. And I want to earn the right to be on that stage myself. I love that.

Earn the right. One of the things that I think is a challenge is sometimes speakers, egos get in the way. I think everyone wants to be unforgettable. But what do you think from your experience? Are some of the mistakes presenters make that makes them very perishable or their message perishable? What are some mistakes?

Well, your audience is not the best judge, right, of how well you did. When you get to your end of your presentation, they're going to clap because that's what they do. When you negotiated a deal in advance, you're going to get paid and they're going to tell you you did a very good job. And some people are going to going to say, that's the best speaker I've ever seen in my life. Because, you know, it is. But you have to always be very conscientious of you're the best judge of how you did, and you can always learn. I say every, every time you do a show, you do three shows. The one you plan, the one you do, and the one you should have done, you think about in the car on the way home, right? So plan like crazy and craft your presentation, not necessarily by word, by word, but by idea, by concept. Write your script, but then liberate yourself from your exact words and your exact script to step into that moment and to be with the audience and to be present. But afterward, you gotta go do that third show, which is painful sometimes, which means watching video, listening to audio, transcribing your speech. If you really want to be humbled and learn, transcribe word by word what you said during that whole speech, and you'll just be really depressed because you used too many words. You said the same thing three different ways in order to get to a point, or you said the same thing twice in a row, or maybe it just didn't really make that much sense at all. But the audience is Very forgiving. You have to be your own critic and judge and always be sharpening that sword. Ask for help. You can learn from people. Start a mastermind group with different colleagues who are committed to excellence. Or just attend events and learn from speeches and get coaching or whatever it may be your path. My path was just that process of continuous learning. Plan the show, do the show, learn from it, try it again, keep getting better.

Real quickly, I'm hearing all this wisdom pouring out from you, Dan. Thank you. But I look at the credential. Dan Thurman, csp, cpae, Past President nsa, you are the top of the top. But are there presenters who you consider to this day to be mentors who to you are unforgettable?

Yeah, I mean, quite a few actually. Dr. Bertice Berry, who this year got the Master of Influence Award, is such a unique presenter. She emotes her essence on stage in a way that transcends any understanding. She is a spiritual being who manifests a moment and is able to invite the audience into that moment. I try to do that on some level, you can't always do it, so you can't count on it. You can't count on being able to improvise excellence. It may happen, you may be able to summon a moment of epiphany, but you also have to have that preparation behind you to fall back on, to lean on, to do the work. Marc sharonbrock, very dear friend, but also a true master of excellence. And I'm also a member of Speakers Roundtable, which is a high level mastermind group with folks like Scott McCain and Mark Sanborn and Nito Quebene and Patricia Fripp and Naomi Rode. So these people, I would say the thing about nsa, there's so many heroes, so many experts who are unforgettable, each in their own way. And the temptation is to try to emulate someone else and say, I want to be like that person. But the trick is to be yourself, to be all of you, to be completely authentic and vulnerable and to say, I can use a piece of that and a piece of this and that essence and that nuance, but channel it through my own confidence and authenticity. And that's just a journey that takes a lot of time. But when you see others who do do it well, it definitely feeds you. And I will say about nsa, because I've said this before, NSA is the place where your heroes become your colleagues and eventually your friends. And if you spend enough time with the people who you respect at the highest level, then you begin to Understand how they think. And then it's not emulating them, but it's channeling a bit of their thought process through your own experience and thought process and words and message. And it comes out in that unique way. I have a lot of heroes. I'm very fortunate to have made many of my heroes very close friends.

I want to thank you for daring comments because you just reinforced a key point here. As we continue to grow and excel and get better and better, there are always individuals with whom we can communicate, who we can look to who. Whom we can lean on to help us to continually grow. So the idea of excellence is ongoing. And I want to thank you for reinforcing that, Darren.

Yeah. Just to reiterate, if everyone's hearing exactly what Dan keeps saying over and over again in different ways, goes back to that Jim Rohn quote mark that we talk about. You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. It seems like one of your strategies, Dan, is to surround yourself with unbelievable, amazing speakers and presenters, not just to be around them and quote, unquote, get connections. No, no, to get the thoughts, to see the thought process. And I think that is one of the critical factors, who you surrounding yourself with. And that seems to be one of your strategies.

Yeah. And you could figure out how to get in the room, but you have to, I guess it goes back to earning the right. How do you earn the right to stay in the room? You can't ask for friendship. You have to earn friendship. You give a lot of value. I'm amazed that in some of these rooms I'm even invited because people have achieved so much at some levels that are way more advanced than my own. But I think for me, what really has been the thing over and over again is Dan's real. I'm the same guy on stage that I am offstage, and I find just as much value. I really believe in my life that I'm working on my speaking business while I'm with my kids, while I'm with my wife, while I'm exercising and mountain unicycling through the woods. Because I'm pouring into this vast reservoir of my uniqueness and my personality. And what I'm teaching my audiences is all about bringing every bit of you, your essence, your uniqueness, to your job, to your mission, to your platform, to your speaking business. And so by investing in myself, I'm living that example. What I tell the audience is, and you've probably been wondering why this ball's here, I say, I wish I had a crystal ball that I could look into to tell you exactly how this is going to turn out or that everything is going to be okay. But I don't, because your future is fluid and changing and moving in every direction. But what I do know for sure about your future is this. You're going to be there. So whatever you do now to improve yourself, to get honest, to be real. To be real. That was nice.

That was real.

It will improve you and it will prepare you for what's to come.

And, Mark, I want to honor you to Dan, that there was a pretty cool moment that he had in your life.

Yeah. That was July of 2019. I got my certified speaking professional medallion, and Dan was the man who put it over my neck that day. And it was. Was for me, a special moment. I live in Georgia, about two hours south outside Macon, so I'm also fellow Georgian, and I didn't have a chance to speak to the Georgia NSA chapter recently as well, doing a program for them. But just the memory of Dan being Dan, being the man who handed this to me, is very, very special. Having had a chance to work with his daughter in the youth program years ago was also very special. So I feel a very honored connection to you, Dan. And you say you have no crystal border seen to the future. I will say this. I know there are people out there who won't be. Who will be a bit afraid to ask you this about, my gosh, how long can he keep going? But I do know my high school soccer coach from Jamaica, where I grew up. He and I talk by phone every week or so. And he last time he played soccer, he was 70 years old, and one of his opponents was a kid who was 19, and he was showing his kid some of the moves at 70. And I hope and I wish and I pray that you can keep doing the handstands, keep climbing ropes that fall from the sky when you're 70 and beyond. Because you. Your Persona and your message is so important. I want the world to hear it. So from my heart personally, Dan, thank you for blessing me, for being a part of my life and my success and for being so unforgettable for our audience.

And thank you, brother, before we go to King. I remember that moment, Mark. There was a lot going on in that flow. But you and I took the time to look in each other's eyes and just commemorate that special moment together. It was really special. I did have to jump a little bit, but you can.

You're so skilled. You can jump. It's fine.

I do have ups and I'm 52 and can still do a standing back tuck. And my goal is to still do a standing back tuck at 60. People tell me you don't still think you'll be able to do this in your 70s or whatever? I say every year it just gets more impressive.

There you go, Dan, again for this man. Just thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you so much, Darren.

All right. And Mark, I just want to know in this picture, is he, like, squeezing your hand too hard or like, what's going on there?

Honestly, it was emotion for me. I was just so honored that Dan had handed me my given my CSP and I was like, oh, thank you so much. I was moved. I was really, really moved. So that's a genuine moment from the NSA Convention 2019 when you and I, Darren, did a program together as well for the NSA crew. So thanks again, Dan and Dan, we're.

Going to do a keepers and action items from this podcast. Mark's going to do that. But before we do, if someone wants to learn more from you, who's your audience? Who's the perfect meeting planner? Organizations. And where would they go to find out more about you?

Sure. So danthurmon.com t h u r m o n thurman with an O. Not an A. Not like Uma Thurman, my crazy cousin Thurman with an O. And there's a lot of resources there that we also have a weekly coaching video I mentioned that's for free. It's just something I do as a gift to the world to try to keep my pipeline open and also to help people. It also keeps me accountable to creating new, different content every single week and to really honing my ability. I talk about connecting lifelines between work and relationships and health and all these different aspects. That's one of my lifelines because my son Eddie actually does the editing on those weekly videos and he's phenomenal. He's in college right now at Berkeley College of Music, and he does weekly editing for me. So check those out. But any resource that you'd like, I think you'll be able to find at that website or on my socials as well.

And check out his book too, as well, for sure. Mark Brown, what do we got for keepers from Dan Thurman, hall of Fame episode editor.

I like Eddie the editor. Anyway, our keepers for today. Wow. Get a handful and a mouthful.

Okay.

It doesn't matter what you do, it's how you do it. And from Dan's mom Every profession can be an expression of art. So think of your craft as a work of art. It'll change your perspective. Never let your skills upstage your message. That's gold right there. And my favorite, balance isn't something you get, it's something you do. Always link your vital message to the audience's life. Virtual. Love that lens. Look in the lens. 100% of the time you're talking unless you're reading your keepers.

Content.

Listen to this. Content and entertainment value are no longer mutually exclusive. They are mutually support. Ooh, love that. And it's not just content and entertainment. It's about relevance and engagement. And remember, your journey is long. It puts you on a Runway. Last two. It's okay to ask for help. Be a part of a mastermind and continue to improve your craft. And my favorite of all, waste no time and waste no words. Dan, your words and your time today for me certainly were not wasted. Darren.

Yeah, Dan. Thanks for being with us and sharing your wisdom. Most importantly, being the example for all of us. Mark, I want to be as cool as he is someday. I do not ever want to try and do a headstand handstand on a lectern, ever. Even one that's rock solid. It's been done, but not the way you do it. Because of who you are and what you bring to it. Mark Brown, before we take it home, if you're listening to this and you want some more specific processes, step by step processes, join Mark and me. We've got an event coming up. Unforgettable Presentations. Whether it's your on stage or your webinar, the presentation you do and walk with us through that seven step process over two days. Check out stagetimeworkshops.com Mark Brown Take us home once again.

Darren. Dan Thurman. It was a joy, a pleasure and a privilege. Friends. Listen to what this man has to say, check out his website, do what he says and you too will be unforgettable. See you next week.

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