Ep. 97 Live Coaching With Maureen Zappala, Imposter Syndrome Expert

Hey there, Mark.

Hey, Darren. How's it going, my friend? Hey.

I'm thrilled. Today, another coaching episode where we get to dive in deep to somebody's story to be able to help them help their audience. You and I get to do this side by side. I love what we get to do, but more importantly, help people and then help people help people reach their audience and see things just like you did for me, Mark Brown. See things in me and my speech and my story that I couldn't see myself.

Well, that's great, because today's guest, I want to say victim, is a dear friend of ours, real special, not only in her own right, a keynote speaker in her lane of imposter syndrome. She's an author. She's also a mom. She's a for real rocket scientist and someone who I've come to know and love deeply and dearly. A professional speaker, NSA member, toastmasters, leaders, you name it, she has done it. And today we get to help her go from good to, to great to unforgettable. Let's do this.

Anyone can give a presentation. Few deliver unforgettable presentations. What's the difference? You're about to find out. Welcome to the Unforgettable presentations podcasts with your hosts, world champion speakers and coaches, Mark Brown.

Mark Brown, your life tells a story and there's someone out there who needs to hear it.

And Darren Lacroix. And Darren Lacroix.

Stage time, Stage time. Stage time.

Ready for some powerful presentation. Ahas. Let's dive right in.

All right, Mark Brown, welcome. Maureen Zappala.

Hi, guys.

Yay.

Thank you for inviting me. This is going to be a blast. I hope you.

Good to say that up front before we actually do this. So we admire your courage. We thank you for this opportunity and this privilege to work with you on your story. So before we dive in, Maureen, a little bit about, is this a keynote speech? We're going to be working on a story from it at the beginning, the end, the middle.

Yeah. This is going to be almost word for word the exact opening of my entire keynote speech. So there's a story and then a transition into my first point. So it's a story I've told a million times, an opening I've told a million times. But when you invited me to be a coachee, I thought, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I totally trust you guys. Totally need your perspective. I've seen the magic that you guys have done for other people. So here I am. Yay.

All right, Mark Brown, I'm going to let you lead on this since I'm the deputy coach. You're the coach's coach.

Now you're being a little unfair because you know how I feel about Maureen, like my sister. You know that, right?

I do.

Happy to come in and do this. Now, I don't know if it's gonna be appropriate to give her a Toastmasters introduction, but what is your main theme? Quickly, Maureen, this is a high level. What's your.

I market myself as the go to expert on overcoming imposter syndrome.

I love that. Well, I want to give you a fabricated made up intro and let you go right into it. Right.

I will say though, that imposter syndrome is this funny self doubt that smart people don't believe that they're smart people. And I teach people strategies to overcome that. And I've researched it, I have written about it, I live it, I still struggle with it, trying to overcome it. And when I have an introduction for people, I don't even talk about me. I talk about what the audience is. Have you ever felt like you're in over your head? Have you ever wished that you were as smart as everybody thinks you are? And so that's the kind of introduction because it gets focused on what they're going to get.

Sure. I'm going to wing it. Okay, I want to make it up.

Here we go.

I love it. I can't wait.

We got the applause ready to go. Mark and Maureen in between.

Maureen, you gotta wait for the applause now. Okay, so here we go. And make this up. All right. Have you ever felt as if you didn't belong? You didn't fit in the room, you didn't deserve a seat at the table? Have you ever wondered, will people really know who I am? When they figure it out, I'm out of here. Listen, that's a very common experience. How do you handle that? How do you deal with it? How do you overcome it? I have no idea. But I know someone who does. And today, sit back, listen, learn and drink in the wisdom and the knowledge of the go to imposter syndrome expert and help me welcome Maureen Zappala.

Think back to 1983. Do you remember where you were? Because I do. Well, I remember where I was. I don't know where you were. I have no clue where you were. But I was brand new, out of college, fresh new engineer. My first day on my first big girl job. I was hired as a project engineer at NASA. Now think back to that first day of the first day of a new job that you had. Imagine how I felt you probably felt like I did. I was excited and terrified. I was excited because I was an aeronautics fan, and I knew that NASA was kind of a big shot in the aeronautics field. And so for me, it was like being, I don't know, holy ground. It was so exciting. But I was also terrified because it was NASA. This is where all the smart people hang out. I mean, this is where the movers and the shakers in the aeronautics world were. I remember looking at them thinking, what were they thinking when they hired me? Did they not look at my resume? Did they not see that my transcript shows that I was not a straight A student? So I had this tension of being excited and terrified. Now, my first job at NASA was pretty simple. I was hired as a project engineer in what's called the Propulsion Systems Lab. It's a jet engine test facility. My first assignment was simple. All I had to do was to observe the crew conducting an engine test. How hard is that? Show up. Shut up. Don't screw up. I got this. Well, I walked into the control room of this facility, the Propulsion Systems Lab. We called it psl. I walked into the PSL control room, and it looked like any other control room that you probably have seen images of pictures of. Imagine a room with walls covered with TV screens and monitors and tables with keyboards and clipboards and things beeping and flashing and people on headsets being really intense. And I walked in, and I thought, oh, my gosh, I am totally in over my head. I don't belong here. But I had a job to do. So I scanned the room, and I saw one empty chair off in the corner, and I thought, that chair's mine. I slipped into the room, and I slithered along the wall, and I plopped myself in that chair and began to do my job. Now, I had no clue what was going on. I mean, gosh, I was fresh out of college. There were about 18 people in the room, and I knew that they had been there way longer than I had. And I knew that the gap between me and them was, to me, insurmountable. So all I could do was sit there and watch. And then we heard it. I was mortified, humiliated. 18 heads snapped in my direction. 18 sets of eyes drilled down to me, and it was almost as if I could hear them think, who's she? Who let her in? She doesn't belong here. Now, I tell that story all the time. Not because it's simply an embarrassing story. I mean, we all get hiccups, right? We all have had hiccups in Weird times and ones that you know, the ones that never stop, they just roll on and on and on and it is embarrassing. But that's not the point of the story. The is not about hiccups. The story is a metaphor. Because in a group like this, where I know that you are educated, informed, celebrated, respected, degreed, credentialed, certified, and probably more than accomplished in your field, I bet a lot of you felt exactly like I did. Like, first, you don't feel like you belong. And second, it was just going to be a matter of time before a hiccup makes everybody look and you think that you don't really belong. That's called the imposter syndrome. The imposter syndrome is this irrational self doubt, this self created self doubt that makes smart, degreed successful people feel like they are not smart and successful. It keeps you small, it keeps you hidden, it keeps you constantly looking over your shoulder. And at its very worst, you never get to truly enjoy the fruit of your success. You never get to really enjoy the career that you chose, the path that you've chosen, that you forged, the awards, the recognition, the set, the credentials that you've earned. You just simply say, yeah, but I really didn't deserve it. So that's the opening. And then from there I go on into my other points around.

APPLAUSE now, normally we go back, I'll lead, I'll give you all my thoughts and he'll jump in and we're going to kind of have a conversation today. Is that okay with you, Maureen?

Absolutely.

Excellent. I will confess I was a little surprised. And friends who are listening and maybe watching us on YouTube, please understand, we know Maureen very, very well. I've known her for at least, I don't know, 12 years, maybe more. Okay. And we have a relationship. Maureen and my wife are like this. And I can give her my harshest and firmest response. And she won't cry too much. If she does, I'll use my Kleenex as a proxy for her.

Okay.

Now, knowing Maureen, that you have done this before and it is yours, it felt a little uncertain in the first couple of the first paragraph or so. Not you were stumbling and fumbling, but it was as if you were trying to remember exactly what word you were going to say. So it didn't flow as smoothly as I expected from you, knowing your level of professionalism and knowing what you can do.

You're absolutely right. I normally would have practiced it a lot more because even as often as I've done this, you can't get away without practicing. And today I didn't do any practicing.

Well, here's the cool thing. Herein lies a lesson for me and for everyone here. Sometimes we get ourselves in a. In a spot where because of our credential, someone says, hey, want to say a few words? And we don't have time to really prep ourselves. And those of us who are toastmasters can use table topics to prepare for this. But I appreciate what you're saying, but it's a reminder to me and to all of us, we got to be ready. Sometimes you never know what's going to happen. But that being said, your content was certainly very good. But again, because I love you, I'll be honest, I did some mathematics. 1983 was 38 years ago, and I know that because my daughter is 37, born in 84. And you asked us if we remember where we were in 83. What about the professional millennials who are 28 and 29 who weren't born in 83? They can't recall a year they never existed. I recommend you reconsider how you approach that. And maybe you want to talk about your first job as opposed to what year it was, because the year puts you in a place where someone who's 29 and fast tracked can't relate.

Yeah, usually that usually is how I open it. I say, think back to your very first job.

And also you gave us a nice theme. I picked up on excited versus terrified. Because you used that contradiction a few times. It almost became thematic as you were doing it. Was that deliberate?

Kind of, yeah.

Yeah. Good. Excellent. Early on, I thought you had an opportunity there. Rather than tell them you feel excited and you also feel terrified, considering how did you feel? On the one hand excited and the other terrified. Well, it's exactly how I felt that day in 1983 when I walked into my first job at NASA. Wow. I was overwhelmed. But that way you ask the rhetorical, give them a chance to answer in their brains. So you come across less as someone who's always speaking to the audience, but indeed having a conversation with the audience. Before I go to Darren, to go back to the opening, I want to go in sections if I can. I loved show up, shut up, and don't screw up. Because I know I've been guilty of not showing up on time, of not shutting up, and certainly I'm a master at screwing up, but that was that line I liked. As a self confessed word, nerd is my last point here. As a self confessed word, nerd used a powerful phrase. You mentioned an insurmountable gap. And maybe it's the way I read the English language. I think of insurmountable as being something I've got to climb over, but not something I've got to encompass or traverse. And again, it's purist, it's nitpicky, it's word nerd thinking. And, Darren, do not reach for your dictionary now. But I think of insurmountable as something to climb over as opposed to something to get across. I may be wrong. I'll verify later on, but that's a small nitpicky thing.

That's a good idea.

I'm going to pause there because I want to stop with the first portion of your presentation and give Darren a chance to respond to that portion before I move on.

Darren, I had written down the same things, and I appreciate that you normally don't start off 1983. Think back to 1983. I mean, Mark covered that. And my transition words in my head that I had written down was after you asked them about their first job, how did you feel? And I would let us feel it a little more before you do anything with it. You know, what feelings went through your body? What did you see? Who were the characters in your first day? And then, so you're setting it up, so you say, what did you see? Then you tell us what you saw. How did you feel? Then you tell us how you felt, who are the characters? And then you tell us about the characters. So you're a better wordsmith at that than I am, but I think it might set it up just a little bit. A little sweeter, if you will. And then just for me, it was 1983. It was my dream job, NASA. I've lived for my whole life. I've dreamed of that. For me, what was missing? And Mark, I don't know if you consider this the next section or not, but for me, what was missing is truly painting the picture, what you saw. Now, you said you've all seen it. Yeah, we have, but I want to see it through your eyes. You know, you could even mention you've probably seen this in a movie, like Hidden Figures or like, give us a single frame of reference, but then forget about that and then paint the picture you saw. 4,000.

Good, because I seriously, I undervalue that moment that I walk in there. To me, it was like. I mean, it was. It was magical. It really was. When I first walked into that control room, I just couldn't even believe I was in it. But then I, you know, lived There for so long in the job, it got to be so normal and regular. I forgot that there was wonder that people needed to see.

Well, you know, Maureen, I have preached about this. I did. I've said one person's mundane is another person's magnificence. And listen, you are normal. Happens to me too. What happens after a while is our life becomes just our life. It's our normal. And our audience goes, what you were in the control room. Oh my gosh, what was it like when you see, you're thinking, I see a chair in the corner and I slide along the wall and I sit down. But we, your audience, we want to see through your eyes. So I agree with Darren 100%. Paint that picture and also include the emotion. Let that flow through your voice. Let's see the look. I like this part. That was good. But that was a piece of the experience you wanted not give us. I say don't transport, don't report transport, don't give a speech. Deliver an experience. And for us, because of the nature of this, your talk is about what we experience. Imposter syndrome is an experience for the individual early on. Give us the experience of what you felt through your eyes, as Darren says, through your language, but through your expression. The wide eyed wonder, the fear, the body actually shrinking and wanting this to be invisible. All of those components combined deliver the experience. And he's right. A frame of reference. And so we can see the tapes moving and the screens blipping and hear the sounds. And I love the headset reference. I'm saying Darren is 100%. Spot on. Back to you, Darren.

Yeah, just so when we see the lights, we see the meters going, whatever it was you saw. And just give us three different insights. The buttons, the whatever, the whatever. I also would love to. I remember pulling up and seeing for the first time that night NASA logo. I have arrived.

It's true.

Okay, and then take us into the room and Mark, I'll. I'll also yield to you on this. Somehow we've got to increase the conflict. So it wasn't just your first day and job like before the hiccups. Because to me, one of the things that was missing was there was no other character, there was no boss. And maybe he was there or not there. But was there something you were told before you came that Captain whatever or doctor Whatever is going to be there in the room?

Well, there were many elements that elevated the significance not just of the people there, but the test itself was a NATO test. There were NATO people in the room from other countries.

Thanks for leaving that out.

Well, and I used to put it in there, but it just. The story started to grow so much that it seemed like the buildup didn't quite match the impact of the point I was making. Because this is a story that transitions. It's not a focus story. It's more of a metaphor story. So I was trying to figure out ways to pull things out, but here's the biggest. And this translates well to imposter syndrome, because it is one of the points that I make. My biggest conflict, my biggest internal conflict, was those 18 people that were in the room. They were all men, and I was the only woman.

Yeah.

I felt like I was not just in the minority, but I was carrying an entire gender into that control room with me.

Yeah. And that is critical to the telling of this that we need, because that changes how we look at it through your eyes.

Yeah.

I mean, that is important. And the fact that it was NATO, I understand. We don't want to put too much, but if anything increases the conflict. You're not just walking into your first day job now. There's 18 people.

Security is on the line here.

18 people from NATO are there, and you're on your first. First day on the job. NATO, we get that. We can understand that. We can visualize that. You know, from 18 different countries. You know, the officers, executives, whatever they referred to as. One of the things that I didn't like is I didn't, like, slithered along the wall personally, because that, to me, as the listener, that didn't. I get what you were trying to say, that you were trying to just kind of sidestep along the wall and stay out of everyone's way. But to me, slithered, I think of a snake. I think of negative, I think of evil. So to me, it didn't give what you were trying to say. And it's just a word, but it's a powerful word. I'm just letting you know my thoughts. You know, one of the things is the thought process in the listener's mind.

How about slinked along the wall?

You could use slinked. Or sidled. I know sidled is an unusual word, but it actually means to move furtively and timidly sideways. It literally means to sidle along.

I crept along the wall, I crept.

With, and I somehow. I tried to make myself small. But I think you could even kind of show us, which would help us feel it here even more. Now, I know we're on a podcast and we're Just hearing the audio. But you get the point of literally putting your back, like your hands are against the wall and you're trying to be small and not touch anybody else or whatever that is. This slither just gave me the wrong impression and the wrong feeling took me out of the emotion of you being afraid as opposed to what you were trying to convey. Mark.

Okay, yeah, real quick. Go ahead, Maureen.

No, that's a great observation. It never even occurred to me. So thanks for that.

Well, we tell our students, our clients all the time. We use dictionary.com and thesaurus.com, particularly thesaurus, because that'll give you some options for slithered, slink, sidled crypt. You'll choose what you think best describes the emotion you want to feel regarding that. You don't want the story to become too big. I get that. You don't want it to become too big and overtake your message. An idea for you and for our listeners. Viewers, when faced with that dilemma, what is the most significant source of conflict? Is it that NATO is in the room? The North Atlantic Treaty Organization? What was the project about? Was it about a new engine? Something revolutionary that was critical to world peace? But identify the most critical aspect of that first day and give us that so we'll see the greatest point of conflict to contrast to your degree of timidity. Is that helpful? So what were they making? What were they building? What were they working on as a project at the time?

Let's see, that NATO project. It was. Honestly, I can't even remember what it was.

Good. Well, fine. That just told me. The key was we had ex members from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, NATO on the project in the room on my first day. And I was responsible to observe. And what else? Just observe.

That's all I had to do is observe.

Okay, to observe. So maybe I had one responsibility to observe and absorb. That's on the job. Trading. Firstly, I had to observe and absorb. Wordsmithing. Just a thought. Okay. It's an idea for you, Darren. Continue.

Yeah, I want to go to the hiccup. The all important hiccup. I encourage you to consider how you deliver that. Yeah, that you went. You went hiccup, hiccup, pickup, pick up. I would, I would do a slow build hiccup and then look around, like to see if anyone saw you and noticed it was you hiccup. Or you. It was almost like you did one and then it was like a series of them.

Victorian.

Like, this is a way. This is where we need to like, build the tension. Because even the first one. And you looking around helps create that connection because that's what we're going to relate to when we hiccuped inappropriately and that's the emotional connection is right there at that moment. And you kind of just skipped over it and, and you made it about the hiccup rather than how you felt about the hiccup.

Brilliant.

That's why you're here. That's why we asked God to help us.

That's why I'm writing you a big check.

Well, something else on that hiccup, Maureen. What was happening when the hiccup occurred? Was anything significant happening or was it.

No during the test? Every moment is significant because everybody has to be focused. Everybody has a job to do. The engine is running, we're looking at data, we're pushing an envelope. We're trying to, you know, create technology. Everybody is focused. So any kind of distraction that has not been called or caused by the test conductor who is the lead engineer in the test room, everything else is like.

Do you remember who the lead engineer was?

Oh, yeah.

His name was Lively Bryant. I remember him well. He terrified me.

Really? How do we know that?

Well, you didn't. And we ended up being dear friends. And when I tell. I used. I've used this story for a couple of other different purposes and I give a leadership keynote where I talk about him because he was so terrifying. And he was the one really that looked at me like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you just hiccuped. And he didn't say a word. But then what he did was he didn't say a word. He just looked at me, he smiled and he turned around and I was like, nobody fired me. And I realized when he did that, so did everybody else. And he. That to me was leadership.

I'm curious.

So, I mean, that's a whole nother story, a whole nother spin on this story. But he was, he was, he's like, he reminds me of you, Mark, because he was an African American, but not knowing who he was. He was an African American guy. He was tall, good looking, broad, unlike you. He was super quiet. You know, you're very, you're very social and gregarious. He was very intense. And just being around him, you know, you've been around people that are a little. You just can't read them. And when I walked in the control room, I'm like, oh, my gosh, it's Lively.

Oh, okay. So you knew he turned out to.

Be a great guy. Oh, yeah, yeah. I met him a couple days before that.

So in the setup, if we know you walk in overwhelmed, and then to make it, to make matters worse, Lively, Bryant, lead engineer, is fear. Oh, my gosh. So if we get that set up early on, we know where the fear comes. And I've got two ideas. One is a contrarian approach to the hiccup, and the other is we just need a half a sentence to understand the level of tension. Everyone was intently focused on their task, and then we heard it. I turned around to see who that was, and I realized it was me. And I could feel 18 sets of eyes boring into me as 18 heads turned. And I felt again, whatever you felt. So again, the option is. I can say. The option is, you could say, we heard this hiccup, and I realized it came from me. Don't reveal it was you right away, but I realized it came from me. That may be an option to think about. Darren.

Yeah, I was just gonna piggyback. If you go with that idea, I would even wait, let the way go watch or listen to the recording and how Mark delivered that. But your style, your way. But as Mark delivered it like this, then you're like, Lively. Ah, he saw me. He knows it. So then I really think Lively needs to be a character, especially because he was intimidating. I think what's also critical to the tension is you saying now explaining. So my first task was to go in to observe. And when they're, you know, observe the test. Da, da, da. When they're running the test, what's really important is everyone is focusing. We're. We're studying the data. So you didn't set that up. And that, to me, is critical to making the hiccup even more disruptive, because you like, that was nowhere in there. And for everyone listening, the conflict is so critical to the hook in the story. We say this, but we can't emphasize it enough. I would say that Lively's got to be in there, and you've got to set the importance of the observing of what's going on so we know why the hiccup is even more disruptive.

And then. Go ahead.

You're so good with expressions and playful and funny, and so I could just see you, like, opening one eye and then looking over. So establish where. And then, you know, when you sat down, Lively was like, right. You know, right to your left. So that way when you peek, we know you're looking at Lively to see if he's noticed or something like that. So there's a lot that you could do with the story.

This is so amazing because, you know, in the time that I first developed the story and then to where it is now, I have. It's morphed, it's changed. I've peeled stuff out, put stuff in, and all this stuff that you guys are talking about is stuff I used to have in it. Why did I take it out? I don't know.

Just so you could be with us today.

There you go. That's the answer.

And see, you were brilliant all along. We're just reminding you of how brilliant you were.

There you go.

One other idea that I didn't love, that I thought was confusing was I like what Mark did when he was just feeling the eyes on him. And I don't remember exactly what you did, but I've seen you do this before when you told it, you almost like you use your fist, held up your fist representing you, was it?

No, 18 eyes snapped in my nose.

Okay. Hand puppets. Lucy Wences Senior win says the pan puppet.

Yeah, I just. I thought it was a little confusing, and I'm trying to figure that out as opposed to just, you know, you looking around. Because it's. Remember, it's your feelings that you're trying to get us to imposter syndrome connect to when we feel like we've hiccuped. Metaphorically. Mark.

No, I totally agree. One of my observations is this. You. You tell a good story, and for the most part, you show us emotion. I think you can go a little bit deeper in the emotion in one area. You are such a sweet person. There are times it seems to me as if you're almost smiling at a painful moment when you take us to the nadir, the low point of what's happening in the room. I would. In a perfect world, Maureen, I could watch you deliver that speech and turn the audio off and feel what you feel. So, for example, when you said it was me and I could feel, I didn't say anything, but you could see. And again, I was kind of. I didn't really get into it. But if you relieve the emotion you feel, you remember where you were in that chair in that corner. You probably can still visualize the room. You can see where Lively was. And you remember when you had that torrent of hiccups and you couldn't stop yourself and what it felt like for 18 heads to leave their critically important work with NATO officials there. And they are looking at you because you're disrupting a critical operation. What did that feel like? And how does that feeling manifest to A camera or to a live audience, you're going to bring us to that emotional place. And sometimes you watch the video again. As you gave the presentation, you were discussing some painful moments, but you had this kind of smile on your face. I'm like, why smile when you want to feel small, hidden, and constantly looking over your shoulder? This was not congruent for me. You listed credentials. You were trying to uplift your audience, and you told them they were respected, they were qualified or educated. Do you remember. Do you remember that list? Do you recall that list you have when you're complimenting the audience? What did you tell me?

I say that you are degreed.

No, no, do it again. Darren and I are in the audience. Give it to us again.

So I say it's not a. It's a metaphor for. Because I know that in an audience like this where you are smart, educated, degreed, professional, certified, celebrated, rewarded, I can't.

Keep track of that. Okay, and when you say in an audience like this, that may. That may work. What if you said, look, I know you are degreed, qualified, certified, experienced, professional. I know this. So do that again and slow it down by half. And look at people when you say it. One word, one person. One word, one person. And use. Just do it one more time for us. Breathe. Take a beat. Go back. Go there and do it again.

Okay. I know that in an audience like this, filled with smart people, that you're degreed, you're certified, not certifiable. No, that's not what I want to say. Couldn't help it. You are qualified, you are certified, you are degreed, you're celebrated, respected, awarded. You are renowned for what you do. I mean, every time I do it.

I say I agree with Mark, too. You've got to lose the. In an audience like this.

Yeah, you don't need that.

They're not an audience. They're an audience to you. They're just a person sitting there. Okay, so my personal opinion would just be just, look, you're here. You deserve certified. You're educated, you're above qualified. You are da, da, da, da. Just tell us. Because you're speaking. Speak to one, look to all. But I just think you lose a little of the connection when you say in an audience like this. Well, I don't care about your other audience. I'm a person sitting here listening to you. Again, we're the. We're the hired help.

How about if this comes across two different ways, depending on whether I'm virtual or live, and I'm doing This. I'm doing this live in a couple of weeks. I'm going to. I can't remember. I'm going Kansas City, I think Milwaukee. Milwaukee.

Use the eye contact.

Oh, I know. I totally will. And I like to mingle and mix with people beforehand so that when I get up there. Okay, so I won't say, you know, audience like this, but would it be okay to say, I've met you, I've spoken with you, you are educated, intelligent, qualified.

Not so fast. Not so fast.

That's something that I learned from another. It was Ed. Ed Tate told me. He says, oh, yeah, that riff works. That, you know, just.

The riff works. We're just suggesting you deliver it so we absorb each one of them. Okay, Because I may not relate to educated, but I may relate to certified, or I may relate to two of.

The three on the audience. Yeah, yeah.

Because in a broad audience, I may have an associate's degree. He's a PhD.

Yeah.

My mind, you know, I get a certification. But he is super qualified. You know, he's. He's highly educated. And you never know how they respond. So always think. What might their response be? What might their emotional barometer be telling them? So I know I've met you. I've talked with you. I know you are educated, certified, qualified, professional. The degree. And you were worthy to be here because you deserve to be here. Never downplay your value or your worth. You belong here. Again, I made that up. But you see where I'm coming with that, so. So everyone feels she's talking to me. Individual. That's always saying the pace is a little bit. Can do that for you. Your pace. Right, Darren?

Yeah. And this is a potential callback if you like. I like. Show up. Shut up, and don't screw up. Later on after the hiccup, you could say, I had one job. Shut up. And I couldn't do it. Which meant I screwed up, too. I missed two out of the three.

You could. You could say, yeah, show up, shut up. Don't screw up, don't hiccup. Anyway, I'm just saying my first bad joke of the day, and I go ahead.

I got a little that could be.

In the clothes, even though I like that. That's a good callback for the close.

You also, again, I know you haven't refreshed your. Your memory of this and re. Internalized it, and I know you will, and I know it'll get even better just with that alone. I would also consider. You said, I bet a lot of you felt I Bet you might have felt. You could have felt. You may have felt. But I bet a lot of you that goes back to audience language.

Yeah.

And I know you know this and I know you get it, but for those of you listening, we want to make sure that you're understanding. We want to make it feel like we're talking to one person, because we are. I loved and I don't remember if you did this, you'll have to listen to the recording. I love the questions. They must have been thinking who they thought, who is she? Who hired her? Like, those are great questions. Well delivered. And that may just a choice after that. Did you ever wonder what they were thinking when you showed up? So like parallel like that is a possible check in, however you want to word it or whatever you want to say. But after you set that up for you or what they were thinking, it's a great opportunity to set up our worry, our concern, our insecurities. Did you ever wonder what they were thinking when you read their face or whatever? And then one of the. If you could just have a conversation with us again. The hiccup metaphor. I was not really clear on that. So you said this. This was. This is a metaphor. But I wasn't clear what you were saying. What's the hiccup? Metaphor?

Metaphor. Yeah, you're right. I left out a line. The metaphor is this. You know, it's a hiccup for. We all feel like we are just a hiccup away from people thinking or discover. We're just a hiccup away from being discovered as somebody who doesn't deserve to be.

Okay, all right. Okay, cool.

That's super helpful and I love the. Yeah, but. Yeah, but. Because we. We think that. Super connecting. And Mark, one of my final ideas on this, and this is your. With your wordsmithing, we've heard a lot. Or I shouldn't say a lot, but we've heard other people tell a story, which we should. That we're excited and terrified. And I wonder if you could create a Maureenism and smush those words together, whatever, like X terrified or something like that. Like you're the wordsmith. That's your ninja skill. But if you could take excited or whatever and then terrified or whatever and smush it into a word. I just, I like that it might be a good branding idea. But we'll. We'll get it.

He wants a Maureen mashup. That's what he wants. He wants a boring mashup of two words. Mark.

That's what I have any other Final thoughts?

Yeah. I want you to take me back, Maureen, to the place where you talk about feeling small, hidden and looking over your shoulder. Is your script nearby? Can you recall it right away?

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's at the. Yeah, that's at the end.

Give me the lead in and then a little bit after that. One more time, please.

It's right after I describe what imposter syndrome is. And then I say the impact is that it keeps you small and hidden and looking over your shoulder and not able looking over your shoulder, wondering, is today maybe I didn't say it exactly like this. Is today the day they're going to find out that I don't belong here?

Okay.

And worse yet, you can't enjoy the.

Success.

That you've longed for.

Here's where your face can help you success piece. I can see that, but hit me back again. You defined imposter syndrome and you said you begin to feel small, hidden and.

Looking over your shoulder. Like any minute they're going to figure it out, I don't belong here.

One more time. I'm going to try this to move along with your words. So go back, you begin, you define imposter one more time.

Imposter syndrome is the irrational self created self doubt where smart people don't feel like they really are that smart. And the impact is that it keeps you small and hidden and constantly looking over your shoulder thinking, is today the day they're going to figure out that I don't belong here?

Now, small and hidden, your body can show that as well. You feel small. Even virtually, you feel small, hidden, looking over your shoulder and wondering, is today going to be the day they find out I don't belong here? And then we talk about missing out on the what after that.

Yeah. Worse yet, you miss out on the chance to really enjoy the success that you've created.

Right. So you emotional shift, you miss out on a chance to win, really enjoy success. So you go from here to, I don't know, I don't belong here. And you miss out on the chance to really enjoy the success. So we see in your face and your delivery and your demeanor the difference between succumbing to imposter syndrome and the joy and the satisfaction of doing your job well. Because you know you can, you can show that. All right, so one more time, don't audibly say, mouth it for me and show me how it looks. Take a second, center yourself and do that.

Going back to what part? Going back to the small, hidden, don't.

Audibly say, but Mouth it and move it so I can see you do it.

Better.

And those of you listening to the podcast.

I was whispering.

She was whispering. So. Yes. And also know that we left that space in there in the podcast because you've got to take that time. You've got to feel that feeling. And you've got to do these exercises, these techniques that we're encouraging you to do.

You're quite right. Darren. Again, I know people think, what did I go? Do we have dead ear? Did something go wrong? No. We asked Maureen to redo about 15 seconds of representation, just whispering it to see visually what it would look like. If you can go over to go over to YouTube if you can, and watch the video of this and you'll see the difference in the presentation when the emotion was put to the forefront and not so much the words. Darren.

Yes. And when you say small, hidden. And what is the final.

Looking over your. Constantly looking over your shoulder, wondering if this is the day they're figuring out I don't belong here.

And constantly looking over shoulder. So however you phrase that. And constantly looking, wondering. Looking over your shoulder constantly and wondering, is today the day they're going to find out that I don't belong here? Whatever you use there should be your hiccup metaphor. You just. You should use the same words because that's what you're trying to say. And now we hear them twice. So reword the hiccup metaphor that you said a little earlier to say it the same way.

Okay. So I should say, who's she? Who hired her? She doesn't belong here. And I did say that part. So I need to say that just like that.

Yeah. So.

So they.

Because they're. They need to be connected. So.

Got it.

Cool. I gotta ask Maureen, what sticks out to you from our brief time together today? What nuggets can you share with us?

Always practice.

I appreciate that. Did anyone tutor technique stand out for you or make you really think elevating the conflict?

And I know that. I know to do that. I couldn't really pinpoint how. So you guys gave me some great ideas. And then the emotion of. And I've been told this before. Sometimes I'm not congruent. My face and my words don't match.

So you're a nice person. You're always so. You know, it's almost like you want to encourage us. Don't feel bad. It's okay. But when you go back to that place, we want to feel it. So I like the idea inserting Darren was correct. Having Lively there. I love that name. Lively, who was also Steel. I know, Lovely Lively and Steel.

And it truly fit him because he just was so. He wasn't like, loud, gregarious, but he was so warm and wonderful and friendly. Just was it in a quiet way. And I just. He was one of my favorites.

So, one, insert meaningful characters. Two, set the context that creates the conflict. I'll say it again, set the context that creates the conflict. And we always say, elevate the conflict when you can. And the hiccup scene certainly can do that. And for everyone watching or listening to this, think about in your stories, what ways can I elevate the conflict and magnify the emotion so the audience will not only get it, but actually see it? They'll be able to experience it hearing me deliver this, because that adds in, particularly in your case, Maureen, that adds to the significance of what imposter syndrome means within that context. So I agree with Darren. We need to know that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization is there, NATO is there. We need to see the setup of how critical each piece of the work, how focused everybody was. So when the hiccup does come, we see what a big deal it really was. And I think for everyone listening, small ways to magnify the conflict, small ways to give us proper context, and small ways to insert characters that make the conflict even more real are powerful ways to make the experience more vivid for the audience, more meaningful to everyone who sees. And here's your presentation. Your thoughts, Darren.

Agreed. I will also add, Maureen, I don't know what you have later on or at the end of your keynote, but know that this is obviously a great opening that we think is going to get even better now, but you could also now call back to NATO. Look, you may feel like NATO is there in the room with you. You may feel like Lively is staring you down or whatever. So use those characters, bring them back later on when it helps you reinforce other points as well, because it is such a powerful story and it's like the ultimate of imposter syndrome, which is why you use it as the opening. Having imposter syndrome, going to NASA, having NATO there, having Lively, only one woman out of 18 guys, but yet we feel the same way. So I just think you have such potential for callbacks as well.

Yeah, because right now, when I do close the keynote, I do call back, but it's still. It's not that strong like what you were just saying. I just simply say, you know, when you are in a situation where you've uttered the hiccup heard round the world, you know, and then I repeat my three points and so. But I need to beef that up again. So. Really?

Yeah, and I'd even call back to. Yeah, the call back to that feeling like you're going to be found out, you don't belong here. I just think that is the essence of it. So whenever you, whenever it works, whenever you can tie that in, that's the imposter syndrome feeling. And that's why we're here to listen to you, to find out, figure out how to overcome that.

Great. I'll make one more comment too. This story. When I first decided I was going to use this as my open, I was like, really? I'm going to give an opening story about a hiccup? Really? But it told me what I gleaned from working on this story was that we don't need to be losing a limb or have anybody die or you know, climb Mount Everest. This is just everyday ordinary stuff that we can use as metaphors for bigger and better points. And so I was really, really excited to see what you guys thought about it.

So yeah, everyday ordinary stuff. Mark in front of NATO, first day in the job.

No, no, no, the hiccup part. The hiccup part.

Oh, okay, yeah, she meant a hiccup or a burp or something. Your trip. Maybe you fall on your face, you jump right up and hope no one noticed. Nevermind. Off on a tangent here.

Hey Maureen, thank you for having the courage to let us coach you live on a podcast and.

Oh, thank you guys.

How would anybody get in touch with you if they are interested in having you come in and talk to their group about imposter syndrome or any Maureen Zapala isms. How do we get a hold of you?

My website is Maureenz.com so it's first name, last initial. You can find all my contact information, all my resources. There's videos of me speaking, follow on programs that you guys can investigate. But yeah, contact me through my website. My email is Maureen Maureenz.com and happy to continue the conversation.

And what's your book? I know you have several, but what's the one book that we're talking about today?

Yeah, the book that I wrote about imposter syndrome is called Pushing your envelope. How smart people defeat self doubt and live with bold confidence.

All right, Mark Brown, take us home.

Maureen, I can't thank you enough for joining us today. You gave us nuggets. I'm sure our listeners will also have nuggets as well. And friends if you find yourself in a place where you don't think you belong, Listen to what Maureen Z Says and let Darren and me continue to help you to go from good to great to unforgettable. We'll see you next week.

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