Spencer Jones on NIL, Personal Branding, and Legacy

Episode 293, Spencer Jones, rookie with the NBA's Denver Nuggets.

I'd say my favorite mistake was in, was in college, figuring out how to navigate, you know, building my brand.

I'm Mark Graben. This is My Favorite Mistake. In this podcast, you'll hear business leaders and other really interesting people talking about their favorite mistakes, because we all make mistakes. But what matters is learning from our mistakes instead of repeating repeating them over and over again. So this is the place for honest reflection and conversation, personal growth and professional success. Visit our website at myfavoritemistakepodcast.com to learn more about Spencer, how to follow him online and more. Look for links in the show notes or go to markgraben.com/mistake293. Now, here's the show. Hi, welcome to My Favorite Mistake. I'm your host, Mark Grabin. Our guest today is Spencer Jones. He's a rookie with the NBA's Denver Nuggets. He's a Stanford graduate with a degree in management science and engineering. That turns out to be a degree in a lot of studies, I think, very similar to my own as an industrial engineer. So Spencer, before I tell everyone a little bit more about you, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me on.

It's great to have you here. There's a lot to talk about, about your journey. Um, your studies and your career and things you want to do. I, I've got to mention, you know, there's— I love the numbers, right? So, uh, Spencer averaged 11 points per game in his 5 years at Stanford. That included a COVID season, right?

Yeah, yeah, a couple of them, it feels like.

Yeah, but you get that, uh, that 5th year. Uh, he led the Pac-12 in 3-point shooting his freshman year. He graduated to Stanford's all-time leader in threes, and that was after winning 3 high school state championships in Kansas. And, um, I'm going off memory here from your bio— Shawnee Mission, Kansas, is that right?

Yeah. Yes, sir.

So when I was, uh, in, in my math science geek program in high school in suburban Detroit, there was some sort of national nerd competition, I'm gonna call it, and it was either Shawnee Mission East or Shawnee Mission West was like our nemesis because they were always like just above us in the rankings.

Sounds like it, sounds like it would have been East. Sounds like that probably would have been East.

So, um, we have connections here other than me having no, uh, basketball skills. But Spencer has passions that extend beyond basketball. He's deeply interested in the intersections of sports, health, and technology. And Spencer's actively building his brand in the health tech space. So I think we'll have a lot to talk about in terms of interests in investing and business and all. So I was going to kind of jokingly, like, I'm glad that you can come on a show and not require like that big arena introduction, you know, at Forward. I don't quite have the voice for it. At Forward, 6'7".

Yeah.

From Stanford. But again, Spencer Jones. I will stop goofing around there. So The big question, as we always start off with, Spencer, what's your favorite mistake?

Yeah, I'd say my favorite mistake was in college. I had the unique situation of kind of coming in college in 2019, which was pretty much the last, I mean, the last regular time, regular kind of time for college athletics because obviously COVID hit that spring in 2020. So I had a glimpse of what, you know, I had a glimpse of what regular, you know, what college was in the past. And then, you know, you see it evolve through 5 years to 2023 to what it's been. And so having gone through all those years, it's kind of been interesting to navigate that. And part of that was obviously a big, big part of that change was the NIL stuff. And, you know, a big reason that was such a huge change is because, you know, the sports that benefited the most— football, you know, volleyball, basketball, stuff like that— they're very team-centric, team-oriented sports. While this whole idea of name, image, likeness, very individualized. And so my mistake was along with kind of figuring out with Stanford, which is also very bureaucratic place. So it took us a minute to also adjust, but it was just kind of figuring out how to navigate building my brand while also feel like I'm representing myself well and not taking away from the basketball piece. And I was kind of intimidated by that idea of is building my brand and focusing too much on the individual, is that going to be perceived well, especially in a place like Stanford where I want to be perceived well with fans and coaches and everything like that? Is that going to be perceived well? And so that kind of caused me to falter a little bit and not evolve with the changes. And as a result, you only get a couple years, 3, you only get like 4 or 5 years of college to really capitalize on that. And I did eventually towards the end, but I'm thinking I lost out on maybe a year or two and stuff like that. And so why it's my favorite mistake is that as soon as I kind of found my footing or found my footing in the NBA, signed with the Nuggets, I've been since building my brand for after because it's kind of the same thing. I mean, people don't realize the average NBA career is 4 or 5 years pretty much as well. And so now after learning that mistake, it's how can I capitalize on the image of being an NBA player. And obviously, I keep the main thing first. I always get my basketball and my workouts and everything done first. But outside of that, I'm not really as fearful of the perception of me building something outside of that.

Well, it's really interesting. And for people who aren't familiar, if you can talk a little bit first about the name, image, and likeness opportunities for an athlete. You can sign endorsement deals. You can sign partnerships with companies. To get paid directly in a way that wasn't possible before. Could you—

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, there's two parts to the NIL stuff these days. There's— I mean, it's really split in collectives and NIL. Um, collectives is pretty much just the university, or really alumni in the university, building funds to kind of pay the players to, you know, basically play for the school. And then NIL itself is just— is more of the branding stuff. You advertising company products or, you know, doing camps and stuff like that, just using your image in order to, you know, attract some extra funds to yourself.

And so then, is— I'd like to hear more about that dynamic. You're, you're, you're on a team, there's what, 15? Yeah, players, roughly.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, and depending on your profile, and imagine after that, that first season, um, you know, leading the Pac-12 in threes, you know, you might have had more. I mean, is there a question of like equity of opportunities, of, of how are some players going to react if they're not getting opportunities?

That— yeah, so Yeah, this is where Stanford kind of was a little behind the, behind the trend on that. Um, it was just interesting. I remember it starts like 2021 where that collective start stuff, all that collective start stuff started. Sorry. Um, and what Stanford did the first year actually was, uh, they paid every— we were kind of the trial run for paying athletes then, uh, because basketball's the smallest, uh, team, um, pretty much on all the sports. Um, and so we had— they they paid everybody the same. I think it was around like $50,000 or something like that per person. They paid everybody the same. And that was like the first year anybody did. So we had no idea what was really going on. Then my second, my— this was like my junior or senior year. Then the next year, which was my last year leading into that, that's when it differed. And Stanford was a bit more mature about it and we had you know, great relationships with all the players and stuff like that. Like, but I was getting significantly more than like some of the other guys. And, you know, albeit that was also an interesting decision because I had— I could have graduated in 4 years and been done. I kind of wanted to coast my 5th year, so I just pushed off some classes. But that was after I decided I was staying. I was courted by some other— although I, you know, wasn't quite in the— ever entered my name in the portal, I was. Hit up by some entities who supported, you know, some of the other schools and stuff like that. And so I knew I could make a substantial amount more leaving than staying at Stanford, but I figured the, you know, the alumni base, the connections and everything with that, you know, would take me much farther than, you know, a couple extra, you know, 5 or 6 figures.

Yeah. So, I mean, it sounds Pretty clear it wasn't a mistake to stay. But I, yeah, I was curious, you know, the, the other change along with NIL and, and the collectives is the ability to transfer without having to sit out a year. That's changed things, uh, you know, high-profile ways, especially in football, uh, men's basketball, women's basketball. Um, did Did you lose anybody to the portal because someone did leave, uh, maybe, you know, with their degree already or otherwise?

Yeah, no, we, we would lose a decent amount of people. Um, you know, the, the typical way was that, you know, they would still see the value in the, in the, um, in the degree. So a decent amount of, um, players would, um, you know, they'd try to graduate early, 3 and a half years, 4 years, whatever. But after they graduate, they would, you know, move on to go because like, I got my degree, let's go. To, you know, make a little bit extra money. So we definitely lost some people. The hard part was that being Stanford, it's— we have a much smaller pool on people we can grab from the transfer portal to enhance our team. So we, we are still kind of old school in that we have to build it from the ground up. It's where we can't really be as reliant on the transfer portal as a lot of, as a lot of, uh, schools and everything are. So it's, it's a little bit different, but it's interesting seeing it that way.

Yeah, I think, um, Northwestern, you know, following NU Sports as, um, an alum, you know, there, there's a guideline, um, the, the university— if somebody transfers in as an undergraduate, you have to earn at least half of your credits at Northwestern to get a Northwestern degree. So that really limits— they can only, you know, football for next year has someone coming in after their freshman year at another school, and then it's either that or basically graduate transfer. Like that rule, you know, kind of puts Northwestern at a disadvantage in addition to like Stanford would have admissions guidelines.

Yeah, no, that's an interesting one for sure.

So it's, it's a, it's a whole new ballgame, if you will. And this is always changing, but I'm curious to hear a little bit more. Like you, you shared some concerns, Spencer, about the locker room dynamics as things shifted. How did that play out? Do you, you know, is that something to manage? Does that work out?

I mean, it's definitely something for other schools to manage much more. I mean, like I said, you get a certain type of individual when you go to Stanford. I mean, yes, we had, you know, some guys who were definitely not super excited or, you know, didn't like the idea of earning far less, but we understood where it was coming from. We understood kind of how the system worked and everything like that. And so you know, you see it very plainly, you know, you're able to take kind of most of the emotions out of it. Um, I mean, a lot of my friends at other schools though have, have much deeper problems where, you know, a kid will sign, then I'll find out another player is making more, and then you got arguments with the coach and stuff like that. And then it's— then it kind of stems from that. That's why a lot of these schools are, um, you know, speak about the value of just having pretty much just make an extra position for like just the GM, just run this as a professional team and just run it that way. Because the coach already has, on top of a million other responsibilities, like he can't really be you know, that involved with the business side of this and, you know, try to run his team as well. So that's, that's where you see is like, you know, eventually they're gonna have to start running these, running these, uh, teams like professional sports, especially with— you got private equity, you know, looking to dip its toe into the, into the market. It'll be, uh, and, you know, it's been a lot of changes in the last, you know, 3-5 years, and, you know, it's just going to keep going.

Yeah, because there's been— I think I've seen headlines, I'm sure you know more about this, uh, private equity possibly making investments in, I think the Big 12 was the one.

I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I read about. Yeah, it was like one of them. Yeah. I mean, they're trying to get the SEC as well, but yeah, I think Big 12 has made the most progress, I feel like, as well. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm curious to hear about, you know, what it was like being a student athlete at Stanford and, you know, kind of balancing time you know, between those pressures. I knew some athletes at Northwestern who, you know, they were up at early morning practices, and I thought it was bad going to a 9 AM class. They had already done so much more in the day. I'm just curious to hear, like, lessons you learned about balancing things as you're having to do now in the pros.

Yeah, um, you know, the biggest thing was, yeah, taking out kind of all the time-wasting activities. Like, as soon as I got to college, I kind found out pretty quickly I was gonna have to let go of the video games if I wanted to, if I wanted to have a little bit of all three in terms of, you know, a solid academic, you know, a solid academic score, you know, being good at training enough to be good at athletics, and then have some semblance of a social life on top of that. I really had to get rid of all the, all the time-wasting activities. And, you know, it took me a bit, but then also like just planning out my day kind of hour by hour, you know, because I'm kind of a guy who kind of likes to not know exactly what my day goes on. I kind of like that spontaneity of it. But after a while, you realize, you know, how much, how much you can actually get done and how much more you can schedule free time and stuff like that when you actually schedule it hour by hour. Um, that was a big thing. Um, and then, but you always, either way, you always ran into some issues, um, especially if you were taking, you know, especially taking a STEM major. You know, there's a lot of times where, you know, we're taking flights back from Oregon or Utah, Colorado, where I'm having to stay up late on that flight finishing an assignment. And there are tons of situations where I literally had to choose, did I want to get a full night's rest sleep leading into the next game or did I want to sacrifice that to maybe fix a couple issues on the problem set even though I might get a passing grade? So there was always a couple times where I had to where that conflict came into it and you just kind of had to, you know, decide what was best for you. And it was interesting, I didn't think I— I didn't, um, project myself to be an NBA player, NBA caliber, until like halfway through. So the first half was kind of, you know, focusing more on the, on the school stuff, and the second half was like, well, you know, as long as, as long as I keep my GPA, you know, my goal is just keep it above a 3 or, you know, you know, make it decent so it actually looks like I was a student. But on top of that, like, I want to focus on, you know, because the the basketball is going to be right after. And everybody always talks about how, like, you know, a lot of jobs aren't really going to be that concerned about my GPA as long as it's, you know, as long as it's a solid one. So the last half was a little bit more basketball focused.

So that's an interesting pathway. It's probably a lot more common athletes coming in overestimating exactly their chances of making the pros. And sports like basketball, football, the percentages are really small.

Even though the goal for me was just, um, yeah, I come from an academic family, so I, I, it was always go to the good school first. Um, I actually, the funny thing was going through that whole recruiting in high school system was, um, you know, most kids will choose a school based on the, the schools that reach out to them and be like, all right, these are my pickings. Um, my parents kind of did different. They, because we knew I had, you know, the grades to get into good school, so we, we kind of applied to schools that I fairly confident I could get into. And then out of that pool of what I got into, that was kind of the baseline. And then, you know, my parents were like, if you're going to go to school, you know, for basketball or anything like this, it's got to be on par academically with what you can get into. So yeah, I still had to take like— yeah, I still had to do that whole regular college admissions process as if I was a not, you know, not an athlete and stuff.

Yeah. And I'm not going to give you grief or I don't know, did you ever talk to Northwestern? Because we compete with Spencer Jones.

I, I, I thought I was gonna go to Northwestern. Um, what happened was, so we won 3 state championships. We didn't win it my senior year, so I missed out on the 4-peat. And that game that we lost, um, it was sometime in that tournament, I forget exactly where, like semifinals, uh, quarterfinals, something like that. That was the game they came to, came to come see me and decide whether they're gonna offer me. And we lost the game offering, and Yeah, I know Northwestern's lost. I'm happy. I'm happy.

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, to your point, when it comes to the academics and, you know, schools like Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Duke are competing nationally for recruits. And that's— but and now you talk about the other change, you know, you've got Stanford students now having to travel all the way to the East Coast for ACC games. And that travel creates a new burden, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. I've been wanting to reach out to the guys who have been doing that. I'll be up there. I'll be up there around my break during All-Star weekend. So I'll be able to see the real effect on that. But it's, I mean, the travel, like I said, the travel is already tough where I had to do a lot of my assignments on the plane. So I couldn't imagine adding the 2, 3-hour time difference on top of 2 flights that are 2 hours longer. Probably 4 hours total. So it's definitely, it's definitely something they're gonna have to navigate.

Yeah, I'll ask one other question, um, you know, about the management science and engineering piece. I'm just curious, what was, uh, what, what drew you to that major? And, and, and these, uh, you know, operations research, and there's a lot of quantitative— yeah, topics from my history and perspective.

It was an interesting way that I got there at first. So my dad's a doctor, my grandfather was a surgeon, so I, I always want to do health, but I didn't want to be to be a doctor. So I looked at it from— I wanted to look at it from both the business slash the engineering side. So first, initially, I thought I was going to do biomedical engineering, and then, you know, you go through a summer of workouts and realize how much time you got to devote to this basketball stuff, and I wanted to be good at it. So I was like, ah, you know, maybe, maybe that one's a little hard. So actually, originally, I kind of did the management science engineering one because It was kind of— it was one, it was if athletes did engineering, it was one that a decent amount did because it was a bit more flexible on the classes you could choose and stuff like that. And so the flexibility is kind of what brought me to it. But then kind of it was somewhat similar to a business major in terms of I was learning a lot of business principles and stuff like that. So I was like, all right, I'll just segue this into learning from the business side of health. And there were some business health classes, although I couldn't really like fully like major minor and like, you know, something health specific, there were plenty of like health specific classes I could take within that major that kind of suffice. And so that's kind of what I got into it while also, you know, learning about classic supply chain operations and optimization, stuff like that. So it was, uh, no, it actually covered a lot of interest for me and I liked how wide ranging it was.

Yeah. And so many one of those classes could probably run an optimization model looking at, uh, the current Stanford ACC conference scheduling and trying to maximize the games with minimizing travel. That, that's a good optimization function.

Yeah, I'm curious how well they figure that out because that's tough.

Yeah. So being at Stanford, and I imagine this is in especially in a, you know, NIL era, part of the draw is proximity to Silicon Valley, being in Silicon Valley. From your experience or from others, did being there open up other opportunities for learning about tech companies, investing, or even having players like Steph Curry or Kevin Durant in the area were so involved in business.

It was big in all of those. Actually, you touched on Steph. Steph would come in because he lives in Atherton, which is like 10, 15 minutes away, I think. Yeah, no, he trains at Stanford in the summer. So I was actually able to train a couple of times with his trainer and then watch Steph train and stuff like that. And it was incredible to watch him work. Guy's never— always running. You know, I tried to hop in there for a little bit and I was about to throw up after like 15, 20 minutes. And I wasn't— I was in good shape at the time. Like, I was, I was in good shape for a college athlete. So it just shows you how much different he is and also how specific he is in terms of— it's the first time I've ever seen somebody like consistently track their heart rate as they're working out because there's a certain amount of time he wants to spend in different zones of his, of his, of his, you know, in certain zones of how fast your heart's beating. And so that was interesting to see how hyper-specific everything is and how detailed it is. It really kind of changed how I worked out after watching him. So, on the basketball side, you get that, which is great. Yeah, the Silicon Valley side is huge in terms of just the connections and stuff. We always have honorary captains and stuff like that. I remember the former CEO of Yahoo was an honorary captain. A bunch of people who run VC firms were were honorary captains. And that was something like, you know, you take— you, you don't realize your first 2 years, and then your last 2 years when you're starting to think, hey, what am I getting out of this place? Then you start to, you know, snoop around and be like, oh yeah, there's this many people I can reach out to. The thing is, it's like, I kind of like it, as in like they're not gonna do the work for you in terms of the networking. Like, you still have to go out and do it yourself, which is, you know, part of the value of networking is figuring out how to do that. But once you do like they're all ears and everything like that. So I've built a great, great connection base, and it's made me ever confident that, you know, when the ball inevitably stops bouncing, there's something out there for me.

Yeah. And as you're getting into the NBA and talking to your teammates and meeting people on a different level, how much interest is there in topics like investing not just in financial instruments, but in companies and startups. Um, it seems like there's, there's a new era of, uh, players going far beyond like shoe contracts and endorsements. Like LeBron has so many business interests. Steph Curry, not too far south of where I am in Northern Kentucky, he's got a partnership with a bourbon brand. But I know, you know, he's involved in a lot of tech companies, kind of going beyond. Like Magic Johnson, I think, was an early example, but that I think was, you know, post-career.

Yeah.

Business ventures perhaps. So what's the landscape and the amount of interest and how much people want to talk about things like that instead of, let's say, playing video games?

Yeah, I mean, no, there's, there's big interest in it. It's just, um, it's tough, you know, when you're— for some athletes to— because they're so used to being— what I found is like, so, so many athletes are so, you know, like they've grown in a place where they've always been confident their sport, you know, they've always been the best, they've always been so confident, and So, it's like when they dip their toe in investing and stuff like that, they start to get less confident and they're interested, but it's kind of like that fear like, "I don't really know what I'm doing. I'll either hand it off to somebody. I'm interested in it, want to learn about it." But they're hesitant because of that lack of confidence that they're so used to in their sport and stuff like that. But it's like some of my teammates, especially down in the G League, will ask me stuff about that. It's like their tone and temperament completely changes from how I interact with them on the court just because of that lack of confidence. But the willingness to be educated is Absolutely, absolutely there. You know, I think we're— I think it'll be great because you'll really— I feel like, you know, the next 10, 15 years, you'll really start to see the rates of, you know, the classic football, basketball player going bankrupt shortly after they're retiring. I feel like that's— those rates are, you know, going to significantly drop. One, because, you know, you can make money in college now. And also that the NBA signing a new media rights deal that, you know, contracts are going to be big, huge. But on top of that, like, people are going to be wanting to invest before they get to their post-career and stuff like that. And so it's, it's huge. You know, a lot of, a lot of guys have management teams and investing groups and stuff, um, looking out for them. I have a couple. Um, and so yeah, like, yeah, it's, it's a huge interest and everybody's kind of, kind of looking into it. Everywhere there is much more emphasis and willingness, um, and a much better perception now than there was then on, you know, building a legacy and starting that, you know, starting that as soon as possible. That's— I remember going to the NBA, the NBPA, which is the players association for the NBA. They have a rookie training program for all the rookies coming in. It was, you know, right before the season starts a few months ago. They take us all to, I think it was Brooklyn, New York, or downtown New York where the headquarters are. And it's pretty much like 3, 4 days of just kind of introducing you is, I mean, it's pretty much onboarding for the NBA in terms of everything. Like, and they were pretty candid, like even with the relationship women's side, it was like they had some guys, drugs and stuff like they were very candid on the kind of stuff you can run into. But a big part of it was, you know, I'll never forget like Jaylen Brown was one that was like, hey, you know, he's huge on building the legacy. You know, you'll hear him talk about trying to build that Black Wall Street, you know, with his lucrative contracts, everything like that, really trying to build up the community, which was great. And he, you know, he made the comment like you guys should start thinking about that, diving into it like now, like as your career starts, because, you know, like I said, you're not going to know how long it lasts. And it's hard. It's the more you wait, the harder it is to do, especially when you're on it, especially when you're on the outside looking in.

So, yeah. Well, it's good to hear. I was going to ask what kind of resources are made available. A couple of years ago, I interviewed a friend of mine, Lenny Walls, who came— he played in the NFL for 5 or 6 years. And he was talking about how those, uh, those rookie, you know, financial seminars and onboarding was only made available to drafted players. And, and Lenny was undrafted and, and he was, I think, part of a group lobbying and saying, hey, you know, if someone's sticking in the league, whether they were drafted or not, they need that same, you know, kind of, uh, same guidance.

Yeah, absolutely. And especially nowadays where, you know, a lot of a lot of guys are coming from different starting points these days. Like, I know I, I, when we were up there, like, they were talking, they were really trying to de— they really try to destigmatize the G League these days just because a lot of players end up playing in the G League just because there's such an influx of talent than there was decades ago. And so, and there's a much more emphasis on using the G League teams as development, as, you know, opposed to like the motion type stuff. So it's like, I think 70% at least of people who, of players who have played in the NBA, like right now have spent at least some time in the G League. I know my draft class specifically has had a lot of guys who have been even like top 10 picks. Like they've been sent down, not because they necessarily played horrible, just because the opportunity isn't quite there for them yet, but it will be in the future. Yeah, it's huge to know that they're finally encompassing all different types of routes. To get there and kind of, you know, making it all accessible.

Yeah. And real quick for people who might not know, the G League, which used to be called the D League, as Spencer called it, Developmental League, there's a Gatorade sponsorship some years ago. It's now the G League. But, you know, that used to be a role played by the CBA, the old Continental Basketball Association, where, yeah, it's, you know, that, that that tier below— I feel rude saying it, but below the NBA. Um, but I guess there's this balance, this question of like, if somebody isn't getting a lot of minutes on their NBA team, they might get sent to the G League team just to, to get more action, and, uh, and until the time is right, as you were saying, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Um, especially in my case, when you're on a championship caliber team like the Denver Nuggets, who have they will have a shorter rotation than most other teams. We only play really consistently like 8 or 9 guys versus some of the teams that are, if you're not as good, you'll play maybe like 10 or 11 or 12, but there's 15 guys on the team. So that means like half your team's not really playing consistently. And especially if you're younger, new to the team, they just want to send you down just to be like, hey, play, develop so you can be ready to fill in the role eventually. Which is whether it's a year or two or so. And that happens in all situations. Like I said, there are draft picks right now. I know like Reed Sheppard for the Rockets, who's a top 3 pick, got sent down to the G League not because he was playing bad, just because, you know, the team's playing really well, top 3 seed, they have their rotation set and everything like that, but they still want him to develop. They don't want him just sitting on the bench and, you know, not gaining any skill or value really.

So yeah. And, uh, you know, with college students going into the NBA or the WNBA, um, NFL, you know, there's other leagues players get drafted out of, but, you know, it's kind of that rare situation where people are thrilled to have that opportunity, but then you're told where you're going to go play, unlike college where you're, you're getting to choose, and it's kind of a unique situation. Um, what, what's the pathway or what What happens when you're a free agent coming out of school? That is that in a different, more similar to a college recruiting dynamic?

Yeah, it's interesting. I'm just thinking how specific I want to go on this. Yeah, I can kind of talk about my way into the league because it's, I wouldn't classify myself as a free agent, but it kind of worked a little bit like that. So in terms of basically for the audience, you're, there's 60 draft picks available, 2 rounds, but those aren't the full spots available. Every team has what they call these 2-way contracts, which are players that know they will bounce back. They're still employed by the main team, but they bounce back and forth between the main team and the G League team. And I'm on one of those 2-way contracts and each team has 3 of those. Some of them might be filled, some of them might not be filled. So it's not 60 guys in that rookie class. It really ends up being about 90. So there's like the 30 extra guys who are kind of like those free agents. Signings and stuff like that. So typically what happens is as, you know, you're kind of, for me, I was kind of told my range, I was going to be either late second round or in that kind of undrafted two-way spot. And so it kind of works for agency there where it's like after you're picked, I think it's after pick about 45 or something like that, all those contracts below are pretty much those two-way contracts. So then you're kind of incentivized to choose your situation because, you know, you're getting the same contract. So it doesn't really matter. So yeah, so that's where the free agency was a little bit like I had offers. I had an offer to get drafted late in the second round, but the contract wasn't great or the details of it weren't great. So I opted not to get picked by that team. And then after the draft ended, I was I was pretty, it's kind of like college where teams would be like, hey, we're willing to give them this contract, we're willing to give them this two-way. And then I kind of chose Denver just because I thought for my skills and what they might need, I thought there was a fit there.

Yeah, I imagine there's all kinds of dimensions and interests of playing time. How good is the team? I mean, everyone wants that ring, right?

Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, there's a caveat, you know, with the ring could come less playing time, with more playing time comes more opportunities. Opportunity and more opportunity, you know, you can get a bigger contractor sooner. So there's a lot of things to consider. There's a lot of things to consider.

Yeah. And, you know, there's a lot of, I think for those of us in other careers, there's often questions around choosing a job, switching companies of like long-term versus short-term. And it sounds like you've had a lot of those decisions. It seems like you've been thinking about and making decisions for the long term.

Yeah, yeah, that's been a huge thing for me. Like I said, ever since I started, like, you know, I'm hopeful to have at least, you know, a 10-year career or something like that. But, you know, I'm also planning or, you know, planning hedging bets against having a, you know, a 3-year career, 5-year career, you know, always having, you know, some sort of outlet, which is kind of contradictory to what they kind of tell you, especially in a sport where it's just kind of like, you know, we praise the guys that, you know, I don't want to say came from nothing, but like, you know, came from bad backgrounds or came from nothing where it's like, this was the only option. This was the only way I was going to make it. It was my only option. And yes, that, you know, kind of grind and that only having one option will certainly bring something out of you. But I don't know, I kind of argue that having other options outside of it has made me a better basketball player because when I go to the gym, I can— I don't really have these distractions off the court because I'm not worried about them. So it's just I can fully invest myself into the team, fully invest myself in the sport because I want this to work out. That is the one option I really want to work out. But yeah, for a lot of coaches, I know the whole— my LinkedIn presence and being so active in other companies and as an advisor and ambassador and doing the investment opportunities that I publicize and stuff like that. I know there's going to be a certain perception on, oh, is he Is he fully invested in it? I've been told as going through the draft process that the Stanford prospect does have a little bit of a stereotype to it in terms of he has other options. So it's like, devoted is he going to be to it? I don't know how to what extent they're true, but I know they're definitely out there in some people's minds. And so that was something I just had to kind of just get over and be like, this is what I want to do. This is what's best for me. Yeah, it's funny. I've already been called a know-it-all by my G League coach, but I think that's more just I can test some of our strategies and stuff like that just to get better clarity. But also because of the Stanford thing and because I'm like, I'll be the only one reading books on the plane and stuff like that. You're just doing things a little differently.

It comes with a stigma, but it's one that I'm glad Yeah, well, when is, is, is, well, there's, I'm sure coaches like, I mean, I lived in San Antonio for a long time and a big fan of that team. Greg Popovich, who's still coaching, you know, might find that all really engaging and a big plus. So, but you're, you're in Denver. So yeah, wish you great success with the Nuggets and, you know, better prospects for, for, for this year than with the Spurs, but, but back to LinkedIn. So after we talked after Spencer Jones, you reached out about coming on the podcast and thank you for doing that.

No problem.

I've connected with you on LinkedIn. I encourage other people to follow or connect because it has been really interesting to read your posts about some of the business side of the NBA and being a player and writing about your other interests.

There's probably a lot more players on Instagram than Yeah, I'm not a big social media guy. I've never really been. What really started the whole LinkedIn thing was, like I said, at Stanford, your last 2 years, you're kind of thinking, what do I get out of this place? And like I said, I made the decision to go to Stanford because I wanted the academics as well as the athletics. And I knew I was going to be playing professional basketball afterward, but I was like, 5 years down the line, it's going to be weird connecting to alumni who I haven't stayed in touch with. And although I was doing it individually, I was like, this is a better way to do it on a mass scale to keep presence of mind. So yeah, I created that and connected with alumni and felt like that was a good way to stay in touch. And then I ended up writing some articles, like I said, my unique perspective of going through the whole changes in college sports, seeing it change every single every single year differently in my 5-year time. And then, that blew up and then I just kept posting and then some opportunities came. I was being offered jobs and I was like, "I'm not looking for work yet. I'm still playing basketball." And so, yeah, it kind of just blew up from there. And then, I just also decided there's a huge gap missing on professional athletes kind of having a presence there. I mean, a lot of the big ones will, but they tend to have somebody else kind of, you know, yeah, most of that for them. And you can kind of tell. But yeah, I saw just a missing, missing gap in that. And it was also a platform that I felt comfortable with and I actually wanted to use because it felt like it's— it has— not that, not that other platforms don't have it, but LinkedIn is much more substance than it is just, you know, getting the followers and getting everything else. It's like the people on there are really, you know, changemakers and everything like that. And these are the people you want to be talking to if you have other interests and And yeah, it's kind of exploded from there. I've had investment opportunities, tons of companies reach out. My network's vastly expanded since being on there and it's been great. It's been fantastic.

And then it was also fun though, as the sports fan, seeing the video of you and teammates celebrating the game when you scored your first NBA points. So that's a pretty cool thing to be able to share.

Yeah. No, that was great. That was great. The vets have been fun. My vets, Russell Westbrook and DeAndre Jordan, they're, you know, you definitely have your fair share worky duties to do, but they, they make it work.

Yeah. So, um, LinkedIn and other things that you're doing, you know, you talked earlier about not wanting to repeat your mistake from college. So it sounds like you're, you're on that path of going ahead and pursuing, uh, different things and, and not kind of letting some of those opportunities, uh, sit there untapped like you did at, at first at Stanford.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, like I said, I'm far less worried about the perception of it. I, you know, I am definitely 100% into the basketball piece and making that work as possible. But, you know, if anybody wants to know, I'm at the point where no one would have any reliable evidence to suggest that I'm not fully committed in that. So then that just gives me the confidence to do, you know, outside of it, do what I need to do to, you know, preserve my personal growth and make sure I'm ready for what's next. Yeah.

Well, and yeah, I mean, it sounds like not just being ready for it, but creating what comes next. Absolutely. During this phase and beyond.

Yeah. Yeah. No, my favorite thing to do has been advising and being kind of like an ambassador, you know, because the big thing was like, I'm in the NBA now. I have this huge brand. I can really help companies maybe a little bit more. And so the big thing is like, yeah, you know, I hope to do something in the health and sports tech space. So what I've been doing is pairing kind of with companies that have a product that can help me now with my athletic performance while also kind of learning how that product comes to fruition, how it's built, how it's marketed, stuff like that. So, one company, for example, is I had a surgery after my last season in college and this company has an electric stim— electric stimulus wearable that, yeah, that they pretty much created for me. And I get to learn about the company and while also kind of, you know, getting the last few bits of my wrist all good. Excuse me.

Yeah, that's right. Well, that's very cool. And wanted to ask maybe as we wrap up here, well, I was gonna say, you know, talk about being an advisor and Being right out of college, you're the second youngest guest that I've had on the podcast. The youngest was a Stanford undergraduate student about a year and a half ago. Well, I'm sorry, what was that?

I said we love the representation.

Yeah, so Sophie Rue, she's a 19-year-old sophomore when she was on the show. So yeah, there's that Stanford connection, you overachievers and know-it-alls.

We try, we try our best.

One final question I want to ask Spencer. You know, it's been interesting talking to athletes because I think there's more experience with failure and mistakes and having to be resilient. I'm curious what your thoughts about, you know, potentially making a mistake that a lot of people see from the stands or on TV, like you don't want to be a not top 10 on SportsCenter, right?

Yeah, no, I, I think what, um, I think what makes athletes great is that they're kind of like founders in terms of, um, we are like egotistical but like also willing to change at the same time because you have to, you have to adapt to the situation, everything like that. But you also have to be confident enough in yourself to, you know, perform at a high level. Um, so that kind of makes us like a healthy delusional at a healthy level. Like, and I've always I've always had the theory that like the most, the best players are kind of like the most delusional, you know, they have to be because it's like, you know, especially it's like, you know, your clock's winding down, you got 3 seconds left, you know, you're, you're trying to do a move that maybe you haven't practiced all that often, stuff like that. But you're, you're delusional in terms of like it hasn't worked that out that often. I just have to make it work and I'm still confident in making that shot despite, you know, despite whatever is going on. It's also like You know, like, as a 3-point shooter, I'm missing more times than I'm making it, yet I'm confident that I'm going to make every shot. That's statistically, mathematically speaking, that's pretty delusional. That's pretty delusional. But I mean, that's what makes us great, is that the fact that, you know, despite odds being against it, failing numerous times, you know, we'll always have that kind of perseverance and always have that delusional kind of confidence, but in a healthy way. I think that's what makes us. I think that's what made athletes so special and why, you know, why they can connect to founders pretty well.

Yeah. It's a fine line between confident and delusional.

Yes. We, we, we know how to navigate it. We know how to navigate it. Or at least most of us do.

But you hear about, you know, shooters especially like you, what you have to have a short memory and some, I don't know, hopefully you've never had a game like this, but let's say, you know, you're 0 for 10 and you think that 11th shot's going to go.

Exactly. That's part of the delusional part. I've had plenty of games like that where I've, you know, I've missed my first 5 shots, but, you know, you do keep shooting it and, you know, all of a sudden you end like 6 for 11, you know, you made, you made the last 6 or whatever. Um, you know, I've had that happen a bunch of times, but, you know, a lot of people are really, you know, once you miss those first 5, you're gonna think, yeah, I'm not really gonna, you know, it's not my night and stuff like that. And you can't really, you can't really be like that. You'd have to, despite how you're performing, you still have to do what your role is. And if that's shooting, you got to shoot the ball.

Yeah. Well, it's a lot of great lessons that are going to serve you in your career. And thank you for sharing that for those of us who are listening and now, in some cases, getting to watch you perform. So I'm excited to see how not only your MBA career takes root, but your business career. So it's going to be exciting to follow you. And thank you. It was really great to meet you through— the podcast here.

Absolutely. I had a great time today, man. It was perfect.

All right. Well, thanks. So again, we're joined today by Spencer Jones. Look in the show notes for links if you want to follow what Spencer's writing and doing on LinkedIn and encourage everyone to do that. So again, thanks so much. Well, again, to learn more about Spencer, to follow him on LinkedIn and more, look for links in the show notes. Or go to markgraven.com/mistake293. As always, I want to thank you for listening. I hope this podcast inspires you to reflect on your own mistakes, how you can learn from them or turn them into a positive. I've had listeners tell me they started being more open and honest about mistakes in their work, and they're trying to create a workplace culture where it's safe to speak up about problems because that leads to more improvement and better business outcomes. Business results. If you have feedback or a story to share, you can email me myfavoritemistakepodcast@gmail.com. And again, our website is myfavoritemistakepodcast.com.