Episode 102 - Jo Klingshirn A Go-Getter Searched For The Thing That Lights Her Soul On Fire

I do really believe 100% from every part of me that everyone has the capacity to be able to do the things that they want and not to be held back by the mental baggage that's in our head that we want to push through.

Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. In each episode, we get down and personal with people who go after the things they want to make all their wildest dreams come true. Join us as we unveil and dissect a formula for what it takes to do the thing. Here is your host, Stacy Lauren.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. This is your host, Stacey Lauren. Okay, well, my continuation of doing really cool things is coming along. And my boyfriend and I went to this national park called Channel Islands and we ended up doing this kayak adventure, probably about an hour. You take an hour, hour and a half ferry ride over, and then you get to do this like four hour kayak adventure through caves. And that was when I met Jo, who is our tour guide. And she was unbelievable with the way that she was able to get the group and really get us in tune with what was around us and her energy and just, you could just tell that she's loving what she does and living in her truest self. And so I had to bring her on and interview her. And so I'm so excited to be able to introduce you guys to Jo. So. Hey, Jo.

Hi. How's it going?

I am good. How are you?

Pretty good.

I'm so excited to dive in because I just loved your energy.

I just.

You added. I mean, what we did was so cool. You added like a whole nother layer to coolness just by being who you.

Are, which is great to hear considering that is the day to day. And you always worry about whether your people are having fun.

So that's really so cool. Well, why don't we start off and have you just tell everybody about you and your background?

Yeah. So I'm actually from Cleveland, Ohio. I moved out to California a couple of months ago. I went to school in Ohio, was living in Ohio my entire life. I actually ended up with a business degree and I worked in corporate accounting for about a year or so. And then it just wasn't really doing it for me. So I kind of got a spur of the moment offer from family to move out to California and I was looking for jobs and I had been a guide in college doing kayaking and rock climbing. And I was like, I love that world. I'd love to get back into it. And so I found my current job. And it has been just absolutely unreal. Like, it's one of those things where you don't think it's going to be as good as it. As it promises, and it's been just even better.

It's so funny because when I met you, it's almost like I just couldn't wait to hear more about your story because you can tell that you've sort of already gone another one path and then changed paths, you know what I mean? Because there's so many people that when they get their degree and they think that this is what they're supposed to do, and then they stay in that and they might not be happy. And I like that idea of you realizing it early on and then being able to just make the leap and go after something that you were curious about.

Yeah, I mean, I was definitely tough. I mean, I was very comfortable in the life I was living. I mean, I think it's super easy to just kind of get into a spot and it's good enough and it's paying the bills and you're liking the life you're living, but it's also not setting you on fire.

So what actually went into your decision then from you having gotten your business degree, getting into accounting, and then your family pretty much gives you the opportunity to move to California.

How were you able to make that jump from leaving that job and then moving across the country?

It was, if I don't do it, I feel like I'm going to end up here forever. I mean, I was working and there was one day in March where it was 70 degrees in Ohio, and that never happens. So I was, well, that's cool. So I took half a day off work and I went rock climbing with some friends. And then the next day I ended up back in the office and I was, man, what am I doing? I mean, one. One day I'm like, outside enjoying nature and having great conversations with the best people I know. And then the next day I'm sitting in a cubicle. I was going a little bit crazy. I was like, I need to change something. And it was just kind of luck of the draw that I talked to my family the weekend after that, and they kind of brought it up, but I think I was definitely subconsciously looking for a way out, but I didn't know what to do. I mean, it's. It's terrifying to try to go in a complete different direction when it's. You have. You have everything lined up and to suddenly just like change that move across the country. Yeah, I think I just knew. I'm young, I have time, I have the ability to. If I don't do this, I'm always going to wonder about it or regret not doing it.

Yeah. So do you think that's. That's what sparked it? Was you just almost thinking of you being young and would rather regret something you tried versus not trying at all?

Yeah, I'm a big believer. And you should try everything, even if it's not what works out, because, I mean, at the very least, you. You learn something about yourself.

Yeah, I love that outlook about learning about yourself, regardless of what it is, because I think that can take that fear of failure away. Right. Like, regardless, on the other side of it, you're going to learn something either way, right?

Absolutely. Yeah.

So then how did you get the job where you are now?

Well, I kind of saw, like, just a random posting online, just kind of scrolling through jobs in California looking for anything, and I kind of applied on a whim, and I definitely wrote a very. A very passionate cover letter where I was like, hey, I don't know what I'm doing now, but here's my experience and here's where I'm at. And please just give me a chance because I would, like, love to be doing this. And yeah, the company I works for does a lot of. A lot of different things, and it's. It's wine tours and kayak tours and guided hikes, and it was like everything that was kind of in my. My realm of interest, and I was like, if I don't get this job, this is everything that I already do. I'm a. A good fit for it, at least. And yeah, I had a. Had a talk with my current manager, and it went really well. She's also from the Midwest, and we just kind of hit it off. And lo and behold, here I am.

There's like something so big in what you're doing that to me because you're. And I don't want to go too crazy, but, like, you're responsible for all these people, right. When you're on the tour, how did you go from just enjoying and you don't even know their skill level? You're kind of. And you're. You did a great job with teaching us and learning and the whole thing, but I just can't. I just can imagine all the different people that you get that are doing it. How did you overcome that from being something that you do in yourself to being. Feeling comfortable leading people to do it, you know?

Well, the secret is I'M still nervous every single day we go out there.

I don't know.

I think it's a lot of the. You watch other guides do it for a while, and then you kind of pick up what works for you. And it just comes down to reading people and meeting people and being able to strike up a conversation about literally the smallest thing. And then from there, just kind of keeping an eye on their comfort levels and how they feel about the boat they're in, and then from there, just paying attention to who's laughing and who's having a good time and who is getting progressively more nervous with every cave that we try to kayak in. So it's. I don't know. I feel like I've gotten a lot more aware of body language and just people in general where it's. If someone's not having a good time, I need to be able to tell so that then I can tweak whatever I'm doing and kind of make the experience more catered to them and what their interests are. And, I mean, even when I had you guys circled up and we're talking about paddling, like, I asked everybody what they were looking forward to today, and it just. That gives me an insight into, okay, what did these people come here? What do they want out of today? And then I can kind of play off of that and make it a little bit more personalized. Yeah.

That's funny that you say that, because I remember you asking that question, and I didn't even think about it from that perspective at the time. So you really got a good gauge of, like, who each of us was just by the answer of that.

Yeah.

And then the other thing when you were out there that you said is choose your. I think you said, choose your challenge. Challenge.

By choice.

Yeah, by choice. I love that. Did that come from you or did that come from you learning that from someone else?

That's actually a company phrase. I don't know if they learned it from somebody else, but that's something that we include in, like, every program we do where it's you. You know what your comfort zone is, and from there, it's your. You step outside that comfort zone, you're in the growth zone, and if you take another step, you might be in the danger zone. So it's like keeping people in that. In that growth zone where they. They can tell that they're growing, and they can tell that they're out of their comfort zone a little bit. But it's not scary. It's not too much. And so challenge by choice just like, gives people the option if they, if they know something is a little too far out of their comfort zone, they definitely don't have to do it. It's whatever the experience is, whatever you want to get out of it. And so if you know that that cave in front of us is not looking good and you don't want to go in there, you absolutely don't have to just hang out, enjoy, and learn something from everybody else going through. Yeah.

And for the listeners, if you can just kind of share a little bit, because this is not just an ordinary kayak, it is quite, quite the adventure. Do you mind just kind of sharing a little bit about what we, what we get to do or what you get to do on a daily basis?

Yeah. So the Channel Islands national park is a little bit known for its sea caves. A lot of erosion pounds down the Santa Barbara Channel and has just eroded these beautiful sea caves over time. So I worked for the company that does the sea cave kayak tours on the Channel island, and it's, it's different. I mean, I was a kayak guide in Ohio, and it's, it's all rivers and lakes, and then you come out to the ocean and it's just a whole other ball game. I mean, the, the wind and the swell and the tides and what the waves are doing is just. It makes it so dependent on what the ocean is doing, whether or not you can get into a cave that day. And there, there's big caves, there's small caves. We'll do them one person at a time, or you can fit 30 boats in one at a time. And it's. Every day is different. It's always going to look a little different. And then as the guide, it's my job to make sure I'm not sending people into situations that are going to become unsafe. If I know that the, the water is going to close out the top of a cave, I'm absolutely not going to send people in there. But, yeah, it's fun. Super great. Yeah.

And I remember you went through one. I forgot about this until we're talking, but you went into one of the caves and like, you did, but you weren't coming back forever. It was like minutes that you're in there, and then when you came back out, you were like, yeah, this isn't going to work.

So that's the fun part is I get to go in ahead of time and be like, do I want to put people in here? And then sometimes a wave will come through and I'll know. And I don't even want to be in here right now. Let's, let's go.

Yeah. How do you go in there when you're not even sure what it's going to look like? How does that. And it sounds like you have that in your history with rock climbing too, which is also doing the thing right. But like, how do you get yourself to overcome that and be able to actually like go in and go into something that you don't know what's going to happen when you go in?

Yeah, I think a lot of it for sure is the months I've been doing it. I mean, you just get kind of good at timing when the waves are actually going to come in. And also I just, I tell myself at the very least if I'm getting scared that I'm going to hit the ceiling, I just get out of the boat and swim my way out. It's embarrassing. But if you're in the water, you're not going to get smashed around too bit. You just got to get your boat out of there. But I don't know, I also kind of, on a more philosophical level of that question, I mean, I don't remember where the, the quote comes from, but I, Somebody told me once about doing things while scared is still doing them. And so it's. Even if I'm nervous or unsure about what I'm doing, like, that's not a reason to not do it. It's, it's part of my job. I have to go check it out. And it's. Even if I'm nervous, it's, it's gonna be fine. It's just my own, my own brain getting in the way of like, oh, that's a big wave. We don't want to go in there. Like, yeah, it'll be good.

So is that your self talk? Is that what you say is just, it'll be good and doing things scared is better than not doing them at all. Do you have anything else that kind of goes through your head as you're able to, to do something hard or challenging?

Definitely doing things scared because I, I've definitely been like a nervous person in the past and that's kind of getting over that and being okay. Just because I have feelings about it doesn't give me the right to not do it. But it's also, I don't know, I've lived a very full life for somebody in their early 20s and so I can kind of draw on experience and be like, well, remember when you did this and it all turned out good. And you got a really good story out of it. Even if you go into this cave and it turns out bad, it just becomes a story that I get to make funny and tell other people.

I just interviewed someone about that. I was calling them lateral skills. Like something that you've done that was similar to something else that you've. That you want to do. And she used the term life assets, which I really being able to. You build these assets through different experiences that you have, basically. So, yeah. That you're using that.

What.

What would be some other examples of things that you've done that you were able to kind of go, oh, remember this? And then of course I can do this new thing because I've already done this past thing.

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned rock climbing. That's also been a big part of who I've kind of become, where it's. I'm terrified of heights, but I really like rock climbing. So it's. I would like to do this hobby and I'm not going to let the nervousness of being off the ground stop me from doing it. And it's. I mean, even moving out to California, it was, it was scary. And I was really unsure about it. And especially as the days came up where I was leaving, I was, God, why am I doing this? Why am I. Why am I making this choice? My life was great before. I don't know why I feel the need to switch things up. But I also, I don't know, I think change can be a good thing. And I think it's important to put yourself in situations where you're uncomfortable. It's. It's how change happens. And now, I don't know. That's my thought just ended right there.

I mean, I like the way that you said change can be a good thing. So what makes you. What makes you feel that way?

I think every, like, good thing that's come out of my life has come from a change that was scary at first. I mean, like two years into college, I wanted to change my. Change my major. And it was two years in. I mean, that's, that's two years of classes of being an exercise science major that I'm not really ever going to do anything with. But I also, I don't want to. Don't want to graduate with this degree that I'm not going to use. And ironic considering I then graduated with a degree I'm not really using. But at the time it was. I don't want to. I don't want to make this big change and have to do what, starting over and try to fit a four year degree into whatever I have left. And it's, I don't know, I feel like that's just been kind of a pattern where it's. When I've done things that I'm kind of unsure about and super nervous about, something good has always come out of it.

And so tell me about when you took your first group out kayaking. Were you, did you, did you go alone or did you go with another guide or what was that like?

So it starts out to. Before they let you guide people on your own, you have to do shadowing other guides. So you'll be with another guide and then you'll take out 10 to 16 people on the water. And. Yeah, I mean, when I, when I got the job, I didn't know that they did the, the Channel Islands kayaking. I thought it was just kayaking off the, the coast of the mainland. And so I, I got to California, I was sitting in the office with my boss and she was, well, when do you want to go out to the island? I was, what island? But.

They got me out there like a week later. And then I was, I was put with this other guy on the water and it was, it was insane to me. I was, we, we take people out and we put them in caves and we, we talk about the history and the wildlife and this is a, this is a job. This is something that, that people, that I get to do. And it was, yeah, it was super surreal. I don't think I said anything on my first tour. I was kind of just like following along and trying to absorb as much as possible. I don't really remember all that much about it, but like, I just remember being blown away by the guy that I was with where it was like, he just was really good at cracking jokes and making people feel comfortable and going over the safety information in a way that didn't feel like he was like boring people to death. And it was, it was so cool. I was like, I have guide friends back home and I know a lot of what, like the guide personality entails, but it was super cool to see it in action and just kind of be like, oh, like, that's, that's who I get to try to be.

Yeah, I love that. I love the, I get to frame too. And then when you took your first group out, what was that like for you?

Oh, terrifying. So scary. The whole time I was just crossing my fingers like, all right, you got this. You can do this. Like, nothing can go wrong. But that is the nice thing about getting your own tours is it is very much up to you. And so I was like, all right, we can do. We can do all the safe caves, and if these guys are having a good time, we can put them in some of the scarier caves, and I'll just be biting my fingernails off as they're going through. But it was good. I'm sure I stumbled a lot and stammered quite a bit while I was talking about all the. The wildlife and everything else there is out there. But I assume it went well for the group. I took out and I came back alive. So I call that a. Call that a win.

And then I was curious, too. Has anyone fallen in from. Because I know that was the thing we were, like, talking about was, oh, you know, like, not wanting to fall in. Is there anyone that's, like, fallen in the water that you've been out with?

Oh, it happens at least once a week.

What about when it happens? Because, like, I'm bringing this up because that's. It almost is when you're on a paddleboard for the first time and you're. You need to, like, fall in the water first, right, to know what it feels like so then you can get back up. And I'm. I don't wonder if the kayak's similar, but, like, was it as bad as they, like, thought, or what was that like when you got to see that happen?

Oh, it's happened just a half dozen times a week at this point, up to this point. But I don't know if anybody fell out on my first tour, but definitely within the first couple, there were. I had a couple people fall out in the cave, and I got pretty lucky because it was shallow enough they could just stand up and get back in the boat. But, yeah, I had a couple fall out in a. In a deeper cave. And it's. I mean, when that happens, we tell people, swim out of the cave, and we'll bring the boat out to you. And one of them was. This poor lady was really freaking out, and I was like, all right, hold on to my boat. And the other one, just swim out of that cave and get yourself out of here. And it's. I don't know. It doesn't. Like. I definitely picked up a lot of residual, like, anxiety from when people are freaking out because it's all good. You're going to be fine. But I have a lot of experience doing emergency procedures. I worked at a rec center in college, and we saw A couple emergencies while I was there. So I feel like I have a good sense of being calm during situations where other people might be freaking out a little bit. So it's. You kind of treat it how any emergency situation, it's definitely not life threatening or deadly, but it's. It could be scary for them. And for people who don't know how to swim and maybe weren't expecting it, it's. You stay calm, you talk to them, you crack jokes about how cold the water is, and you just try to get them back in that boat and check in and be like, all right, how are we? How are we feeling? Like, how are you actually doing? Do you want to go back? Do you want to continue and just again, being, like, attuned to how people are feeling and what they're doing and kind of seeing body language and being like, all right, well, we're going to keep on going. You guys were champs for handling that. Off we go.

Yeah. And I love how you sort of set up that expectation in the beginning, too, because it reminded me, I think I told you this story about my nephew and he had fallen in the water. This isn't there, but this is around my house where we went kayaking and he fell in and he's, I'm going to die.

Shark. Shark.

And you pretty much kind of even spoke to that before we even started what not to do if you guys fall in. You said falling in is a possibility and this is what not to do. And it was pretty much what my nephew ended up doing. It was, like, so funny to hear. It was good because, like, you want to almost, like, set the expectation that this could happen. So it takes out the uncertainty. Right.

You know?

Oh. Like, you get to know people, they do fall, but this is what you do in response, very much going over.

That ahead of time of, like, if you fall out, should you be so lucky? This is what you do. This is how you get back into the boat and then, like, reinstating that. I will be there the whole time. So even if you forget all of these steps, like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be right next to you and, like, we'll get you back in and we'll keep on going.

Yeah, I forgot you said that. That should you be so lucky. That was so good.

I just try to frame it as positively as possible. So then when people are, like, falling in and they're miserable, I'm like, yeah, but fun.

Yeah, that was so good.

Yeah. And then.

Okay, so that's my other question is you Just are having a blast. And then by you having a blast, like everyone around you is having a blast. So I was wondering, like, how do you. And that's part of a piece of the do the thing formula. It's mindset, right? Controlling your attitude and keeping things fun. So how does that, how does that work for you?

I mean, I definitely, like, I think I mentioned earlier and you commented on, like, I, I get to do this. This is, I think there are a lot of people out there who would love to have my job or something similar to my job. And it's. I love it. I can't believe this is the, the life that I get to live, where it's even like the hard parts about being a kayak guide where you have to clean a lot of equipment and be talking to people for most of the day. I thrive on that. And it's even on the worst day where people aren't having a good time. And like, I have a lot of work to do. After work, it's like I get to paddle around a national park and that's the nine to five. And I think I've just gotten super lucky in my experiences out here so far where it's like, it's beautiful and I've met incredible people and I have a job that makes me feel like I'm contributing some good to the world through education or just giving people like a good time on their day off. And it's. I don't know, I think a lot of it is mindset. But I also think I've gotten just extraordinarily blessed in that, like, I don't really need too much of a mindset shift because I just am genuinely enjoying what I do on a day to day basis.

And how do you think your confidence has grown so much? Like, how were you able to continually develop that confidence? Because you seem so confident too, when you're out there. And I'm just wondering, like, how, how you were able to do that.

Definitely practice for sure. And I'm a big fake it till you make it kind of gal. Even if I'm nervous about the conditions or I think that maybe I don't have the strongest group of paddlers, like, if I can just kind of like, kind of put on a smile and be like, all right, we're gonna have a good day, like, I can convince myself a little bit. So big, big believer of fake it till you make it. Because if you are putting on a smile and pretending that you're the most confident kayak guy who's ever existed. You'll start to believe it after a while.

And have you gotten to train anyone else yet? Have you been. Have you had anyone follow you?

No, I'm still too new enough.

They.

They usually give people about a year or so before they let them train others just to make sure that they're not like, terrible at their job.

Yeah.

And it's cool that you've.

You.

I would have never imagined you were only doing this a few months when I saw you. You seem like you've been doing it for years.

Yeah, I had a little bit of diet experience before, so I think that has helped a lot. But it's. I think it's just more about being a chatty, confident person. It's like the kayaking is part two. Part one is being able to talk to people.

And then I noticed we were day. Day, whatever that's called. Day person, day visitor. There are a lot of campers that go there and they actually. Well, they camp.

And stay there.

Do you.

Do you do the camping part too, or do you just go back and forth when you're doing the guy. The tours?

Yeah, the way the job works is they'll have us out there camping for usually on average three to five nights at a time, just because it's. It makes more sense to have people stay out there rather than take the ferry back and forth every day. So, yeah, we have a little. A little campsite that we have for all the guides and it's quite literally home away from home. I have a tent that stays set up out there. There's a stove, a sink, and those are the necessities, essentially.

That is so cool. And so you pretty much are living out there on the days that you're doing the guides.

Yeah, you pack in all your own food and you can cook all your meals while you're out there. And then you just. You go to your 9 to 5 and you enjoy being on the island after 5 o'.

Clock. So cool. And then what's your. What is. What is. Tell us more about that. So for people dreaming of your job right now.

We'Re pretty much always hiring, even though the busy season is in the summer, so. Cough, cough Santa Barbara Come, come hang out.

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's really incredible. I mean, we're just kind of allowed to hang out on a national park after hours and it's like incredible people. Everyone just kind of hangs out together after work and as old guiding culture is very much about drinking. But, you know, there are, there are guides who don't drink. So if that's not your thing, don't feel pressured. But it's. Yeah, it's some of the most incredible people I've ever met. I think guides as a whole are just always very passionate, nature oriented, intelligent people. And so you get a group of those kinds of people together and more people getting hired by the day, and everybody brings something different to the table. So it's. I don't know, for those dreaming of doing this exact thing, I mean, it never hurts to apply. Even if you don't think you'll get it, it does not hurt to apply to something crazy. And in the meantime, just go out and kayak on your own. I'm a big fan of kayaking, obviously, and it's like one of my favorite, my favorite extracurricular activities. And my time kayaking in college has definitely contributed to the fact that I am now a kayak guide.

And how do you guys. It sounds like the connection and camaraderie between all the guides is really powerful. Is there any kind of structure? I don't think it's the right word. I don't think structure is the right word. But is there anything in place to help you guys connect? You know, where you just kind of like once the, once the people are gone, then you're, you just kind of unwind and open up? Or is there something that you have kind of set up to create that connection?

Yeah, I definitely don't think there's any, any structure. I think it just comes from the, the people who have been there forever are like, very open and very welcoming to new people, which is fantastic. I mean, you start a new job and you're already nervous about being the new person, and then you're stuck on this, this island with people for five days and it's, it's really intimidating. But I mean, there are wonderful people I work with who like everybody kinds of makes it a point when somebody who is there introducing themselves, asking them some questions, and then just including them in whatever is being done after work. It's, it's fairly common for everybody after work to kind of just be like talking to each other, like, oh, what are we doing? What are we doing? What are you guys doing? What's the plan? And then from there, it's so inclusive. It's like, all right, this is what we're doing. Everybody's invited. But at the same time, if you need a night off and you need to go hike by yourself and kind of unwind a bit, we'll support you and we'll see you at dinner. So it's just very inclusive and very welcoming and one of the best work environments I've worked in so far.

And then you're just making me think, too, about the people that you're guiding. You're basically empowering a lot of them to do the thing. Because there's the majority of the people in my group, they were beginners, and so they're nervous about even being in a kayak. It's not their advanced kayakers that are not nervous. People are naturally nervous when they're doing something new. I think a few of them hadn't even done it before. So what's your perception of that when you get to watch other people do something like that?

It is pretty cool. I mean, we do get a lot of people who either have never kayaked or have never kayaked on the ocean before, or have never kayaked in a sea cave. It's very rare that we'll get a group of experienced paddlers who, like, can. Can keep up with whatever I'm doing. But it's. I don't know, there are some days where it's. You're just super stoked to see people paddle for the first time, and it's. I don't know, even if somebody's not having a good time and they maybe didn't enjoy being out there, like, I'll be watching them, and I will have watched their. Their paddle strokes improve over the three hours we were out there. And so it's like, even if you didn't have a good time, you. You just. You learned something new. You learned a skill. You did something that you wouldn't have normally did. If that's all you get out of it, that's. That's a great start.

And what do you think helps the person that might be scared when they're first starting, but then you get to see them sort of going for it. What do you think is the thing that gets them to. To go after it?

Well, I definitely think it's a lot of peer pressure where everybody else is looking at you and you have to learn how to battle or we're going to leave you behind.

Yeah, I think that's also the nice thing about, like, everybody who comes on our tour, usually with a friend or a group, and it's. It's nice to see the kind of relationships that exist out there where maybe somebody's nervous, but the other person is cheering them on a little bit or trying to walk them through it. Yeah, I don't I don't know too much about what goes through the head of people who choose to kayak for the first time in a sea cave on the ocean. But I think it's impressive. That's a. That's a heck of a way to start doing it.

Yeah, I know it was funny because when you asked the. And I never say I'm beyond beginner really because I never like to have any kind of expectations on me by being good because I. I tend to. I tend to, you know, to just sort of be in my own space. But when you asked, I remember I was, I'm beginner to middle. But then all of a sudden I realized like, wait, I've never kayaked on the ocean before. I only kayaked on the bay. And then I, all of a sudden I had a minute where I'm like, oh, what's going to be different about this? So you call my worries. But it's just funny how it's easy to get in your head.

Yeah, yeah. And it's definitely part of my routine to not expect anything from anyone until we actually get on the water. Because of course like people will say they're experts and then you get out there and it's. I'm sorry you're an expert, but. And then you get people who will kind of like downplay their abilities and you'll get them out there and they'll just be absolute naturals. So it's for sure the guys experience to like not even try to assume anything before actually seeing it themselves.

So what do you think has been the hardest thing for you in terms of doing the thing?

Oh, I think having to relearn the whole skill set. I mean, I took off some time from guiding in between being in Ohio and being here, and even the guiding in Ohio was just nowhere near as intense. So I definitely, I don't know, I had to. Had to start over essentially and. And be bad at something. And. I don't know, nobody likes to be bad at anything. And that's usually the most intimidating part about some starting something new is you have to, you have to start from the bottom. And so there were definitely a couple of days where I was just feeling so, like just kind of beat down because I was either like, had made some mistake or just something hadn't gone right or I felt like I could have done something better. And it was like, I know over time I will get the confidence you need to like. Or the confidence I need to feel like I'm actually good at my job. But it's such a learning curve of every day looks different. There is always something that can go wrong, and there is always something that will go wrong eventually. And it's. I don't think it's ever going to be easy, but it's. It's definitely getting. I don't know. Working in corporate America was not particularly hard for me because it was just sit at a computer, crunch some numbers. But it's like being out here and talking to people and being in potentially dangerous situations. It was. It's. It's been quite the learning curve, and it's been a little bit of a shock to my ego to, like, have to start at the beginning and get good at something again. It's. It's been weird.

And when you had that shock to the ego and you're realizing that, you know, you have a lot to learn and all of that, what goes in your head?

Like, how are you able to.

To work past that, to keep going forward?

Keep reminding myself that it. Everything needs work and that everybody, anywhere, every expert ever has made the exact same mistakes that I am making. And that's just how you. That's how you grow. I mean, being uncomfortable making mistakes and learning from them. And I just try to focus really hard on actually learning from the mistakes and not stewing in the fact that I'm upset because I made a mistake.

And as you've been learning, have you set any kind of goals for, like, learning different things, or is there anything that sort of powers you to keep moving forward?

At this point, I'm still fairly new, and it's like, I just want to feel more. More comfortable. But it's. Especially as the season progresses and winter comes on, the weather's gonna get a lot worse. So I think right now my. My only goal is to make it through a winter of kayak guiding the ocean. And I think, like, maybe not injure anybody is a pretty good. That feels a little lofty. But I'm gonna. We're gonna set it and see how it goes, and then.

Yeah, and then you're just taking a step to move in that direction, which is by getting more and more experience and learning more and more about what you're doing.

Right? Yeah. And spending a lot of time paddling on my own after work or on my off days and just getting more comfortable being in the ocean. I think it. God, what's that statistic? It takes like 10,000 hours to learn something or something crazy. Yeah, just. Just exposure to whatever it is you're trying to accomplish. Just keep putting yourself out there, keep trying to learn, and eventually it'll click.

And when you go out on your own, are you going with other guides or are you completely by yourself?

Kind of depends. Usually after work, like, we'll, we'll go out as a group, maybe paddle around, maybe try to get to in a cave. But I've definitely had one or two days off on the island where I'll just go paddle for a couple of hours and just kind of do some exploring on my own and just get really comfortable with the feeling of paddling and being, feeling exposed, being out on the ocean with like just one little tiny orange boat.

Okay, so, Joe, if you had one piece of advice for the listeners on doing the thing, what would it be?

I think. I mean, it feels cliche, but just, just, just go for it. I mean, I'm, I'm very much a victim of paralysis by over analysis where it's like if I think too much about something, I'm not gonna do it. So stop thinking so much and do something. Even if it feels crazy. Like, if, if you feel like you're doing something crazy, I think you're doing the right thing for yourself.

So.

Good.

And is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I asked you?

I feel like you did a great job. Great interviewer. Thank you.

I was going for that. No, I'm kidding.

And are you on, like, are you, are you in the Internet spheres or anywhere people can follow along with you if they want to?

Yeah, I mean, I have a, I have an Instagram, I have a Facebook that I do not simply ever use. So.

Instagram. And man, maybe I'm really not out there in the Internet world. Yeah.

Well, what's your Instagram? Because I'm sure they would love to follow you and see your adventures.

It's Joe J, O, underscore, clingshorn. And I can spell that out or we can put that in the show notes because.

Yeah, why don't you spell it? And it'll also be in the show notes too.

Yeah. So Jo, underscore K, L, I, N G, S, H, I, R, N. Perfect.

Well, thank you so much for coming on with me. I am so. It's funny. I'm like always. I've only interviewed one other person that when I've been out doing something and then there's a hot air balloon ride that I did and you're the. So you're the second person while I've been out doing stuff that I've interviewed. But it's it's uncomfortable even asking because I. Number one, I don't want it to take away from the experience. Right. And then number two, because I just don't. I don't know, it just feels weird. But it's just your react, your response to it was really great. And I'm so grateful that you were able to do this because I think it's really inspiring for people to get to see people that are going after the life they want, you know, and not worrying about what other people think. You're just kind of like living for yourself, which I just love that.

Yeah. I mean, like, personally, I thought it was super flattering. I was. It's. It's really very validating to be recognized for living a life that, like you said, a life that you want to be living. So, yeah, definitely. Thank you for the opportunity. This is been very enjoyable.

Thanks for listening to the do the Thing podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. But even more, we hope you'll be inspired to do the Thing. Do you have a burning question on Doing the Thing that you'd like answered? How about an inspiring do the Thing story of your own that you'd like to share? We'd love to hear all about it. Just leave us a voice message at do the thing the thing.callcast co. Or email us at hello do the Thing podcast dot com.