Episode 112 - Dr. Amelia Case On Perfectionism Stopping You From Doing The Thing

I do really believe 100% from every part of me that everyone has the capacity to be able to do the things that they want and not to be held back by the mental baggage that's in our head that we want to push through.

Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. In each episode, we get down and personal with people who go after the things they want to make all their wildest dreams come true. Join us as we unveil and dissect a formula for what it takes to do the thing. Here is your host, Stacy Lauren.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. This is your host, Stacy Lauren. So it's so cool because I'm in the middle of working on this quiz for you guys on what's stopping you from doing the things you want. And I was actually going to be talking to my coach, Dr. Amelia Case, who I've been working with on and off for the last few years about this topic. And we were just going to talk about it just to give me, have her give me advice on what she thinks from her perspective after all the years she's been doing this work and what really gets in the perfectionist mindset of getting in their way. And anyway, at the last minute, I just decided to do this as a podcast episode for you guys so you could, you could learn from her as well and hear kind of how I get into things and really make sure I'm looking at the 360 degree view of how to be able to help you guys move when you're stuck. So we're basically going through one of the results right now, which is this is if you're getting that your quiz result is that you, you're coming out as a perfectionist. We're going to be talking through different ways to help you guys move out of that, out of that perfectionist analysis paralysis type mode and get you to actually get unstuck and move. So I am so excited to welcome Dr. Case to the show. Hi, Dr. Case. Hi, Stacy, aka Amelia. Yeah, I'm so glad to have you back on and I know this is totally impromptu and I love that I even got you in your car. So it's my favorite time to do interviews is when people in the car. I just did an episode with Adam, the founder of my call cast or founder of my, my podcast platform yesterday. He helped me dissect the do the Thing formula and he was in his car. And it's exactly the way do the Thing is meant to be. It's getting in whenever you can and not Having a perfectionist mindset when you're doing things.

Yeah, that's the truth.

So can you kind of, let's talk through when someone's a perfectionist, what is coming up for them. So they're, they have these goals. I've seen these people over and over and again. We talked before how I might have parts of this lovely trait. Well, actually, why don't we talk first about what's the good side of the perfectionist? Because something you've taught me over the last few years that I've really loved and appreciated is how we all have this. Any trait that we have, there's always a good side and then there's a bad side. And so why don't we talk first about the strengths that a perfectionist actually brings and having those skills bring into their life and then we can kind of go through the practice of helping that person move through them, if you don't mind.

Sure. I think one of the things is with perfectionism, one of the strong skill sets that comes out of being a perfectionist is being detail oriented. And we can all agree that we need that, that very strict adherence to details, attention to details, concern with details, and that's irreplaceable. That's just one of those things that everybody needs and everyone needs at some point or another. And if we don't have it ourselves, we need to rely on somebody who does have that trait for us at any one moment. And in the times when we're not feeling particularly perfectionistic ourselves, we will attract a perfectionist who will fill that gap for us, that is for sure. So it's kind of a teeter totter game. If we're not in the mode of being a perfectionist, we'll attract one and then we'll be annoyed by that person. And because anybody who's attending to details at a particular level, and I mean that in the literal sense, somebody who's attending to detail particle by particle by particle, that's tiresome, it's fatiguing, but that's necessary. And the times when we're playing the role, it's because somebody else isn't. There's always that dynamic in play and people forget about that. They talk about perfectionism as if it's only a trait and people either have the trait or don't have the trait. On very rare pathological instances. Is that true? Most of the time. It's a fact of a situation. In one situation where we particularly where we feel we want to have more control or more definition, we turn into perfectionists. And that can be. That's still relative. It could be that in one dynamic, we're an 80% perfectionist. 80% at the 80% is time. We're willing to dedicate 80% of our time to being a perfectionist. And in another dynamic, we'll cap it off at 20% of time, but during that time, we'll be 100% perfectionist. Crazy. Do you see what I mean?

Oh, totally.

Yeah.

I'm also curious. Well, besides the attention to detail, and I love the idea of if you're not one, you're going to attract one. Because I do think that's really true. It's. It's kind of feeling that everyone's like a mirror. Right. To. To you is what I think you're meaning by that.

Well, or the anti. Particle. Maybe. I mean the opposite world. Reflection. The upside down world. Something. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, really, it's true. It's. It's funny. If you're in a place where you're really being a generalist and you're not paying attention to details, there's going to be somebody who's in close proximity to you, whether it's work or a family dynamic, who's going to bring that up and show you where you're missing the details. You'll call that person a perfectionist, and that person will call you anything from a slob to not paying attention. But if you're the opposite, if you're the one who's a perfectionist, you'll attract somebody who shows you the more general view. It's happening at the same time for each person or also each team. You can see that certain teams are oriented towards high levels of detail and high levels of perfectionism that will attract that nature. Like accounting teams tend to be called perfectionists by the marketing teams. And the marketing teams are often called by the accountant sloppy or careless or reckless. But they are serving two very important dynamics in a company. And those same things happen within families. They happen with the couples, they happen with our. Within our own psyche. Because we need both things, both parts.

Yeah. So let's take a few more minutes and let's honor the perfectionist. And let's say we see you, we get you, we understand you. So we, we totally get the idea of the attention to detail and being able to know that every little dot is dotted, every little dot is dotted and every little T is crossed. What are some other really good things about the perfectionists? When you have that perfectionist mindset?

One of the things that Perfectionists do is they create links between things that often people don't see because they tend to look at the particulars and they tend to look at minutia. They can find a way to make two things that seem very dissimilar link together. You could say Einstein was a perfectionist in the sense that he could link energy and matter through light. He had to be so detailed and so incredibly concerned with the minutiae that he could come up with this as his theory, even though it wasn't proved at the time.

What is it that gets them to.

Do that, to link something? Listen, somebody is looking at the details. Is looking at the details because of an interest in an outcome or an interest in a topic. So it only has to be seeded. Somebody who has that level of interest just has to have the seed of a question, whether it's something that that person heard or something that in a team or in a family dynamic gets asked. That's like a seed that goes into the perfectionist mind and it upsets the apple cart of everything's in order. Oh, my gosh. Now here's a question, and then the question stirs up whatever gets stirred up in the human psyche. That's the mystery of all things, is what is it that makes our consciousness go in any particular way? That seed gets planted, and then the person who has access to all of those details goes into the details and can't help but include the question, that little seed. And so all these details start migrating their way over, including the seed. And all of a sudden you have a link between two things that didn't have a link before. Clarity really can pop up out of. It's funny, the generalist would say, I get that 60,000 foot view. I'm way above the fields and I can see the pattern of the fields, but I'm way far away. And so there's a certain kind of clarity, like a distance clarity that comes from the generalist. But instead of calling it a perfectionist, we could call it a specifist, say specificist. Someone who is looking really at the details in finer and finer details is the one who really gets clarity about how those details fit together. So gets really up close to the details. Yes, that's what allows. Allows a certain clarity of two things linking together, like a reliability or a, I guess that very particulate connection that makes things come together. That's very believable, or we might say scientific. That's not my favorite word, but a kind of linking of things that it's linked and it's strong. A strong bond of linking comes from knowing the details. And it's the perfectionist who's interested in the details.

Let's say we're talking to the perfectionist and we want them to know we see you and we get it. What would be something you would say to them, them right now in terms of doing the thing and how it could be preventing them from being able to do the things they want in life?

What I've encountered with perfectionists is there's no question about it, frequently is guilt, beating themselves up, saying, I'm just an anchor, I can't let go of things. I just will beat things until I'm beating the dead horse. Everyone's sick of me, they can't stand me. I feel stupid or I feel guilty because I just get hung up on the details. And I think number one, what I point out is what we're talking about right now is there has to be somebody who is responsible and accountable for the details. And it's either one person or a few people. But they have to hold that space for any kind of outcome, any kind of project, any kind of question that's trying to be answered. It's a necessary position. And it's also the position where people feel comfortable. Let's say in a team dynamic, somebody who is not detail oriented somehow can feel self righteous about saying that is what's holding us back. The person's going too much into the detail, too much into the weeds. That's a kind of acceptable criticism for an environment where, let's say in business or trying to get things done socially, things are supposed to move fast. And so the person who is more detail oriented appears to be slowing things down. The truth is, if the details aren't considered, what appears to be a fast outcome could actually be a mess because it can be an incomplete outcome where something wasn't thought through or handled because a generalist was trying to make it go fast. So for the perfectionist, I would say, listen, what you do with your perfectionist tendency in this case is necessary and it's necessary to get to an outcome. It has to be balanced, right? There's got to be someone who's a generalist involved and someone who's a perfectionist involved. But it's both types of thinking are trying to make their way to an outcome. An outcome can't be had by either one alone. They're both necessary. So for the perfectionist to let go of the idea of feeling like the heavy or feeling like I'm holding people back, or I'm guilty, or I'm. I'm just a wet. I'm a wet cloth, or I'm just boring, or I shouldn't be like this because people are getting mad at me, or it's slowing everyone down, really learning that about this quality first, but then also understanding that. I'll say this in a minute. More about this in a minute. But it's so funny that the person who does stick with the details and is able to find those unique links that other people overlooked often ends up being the hero of whatever is trying to be created. Okay, so now backtrack again. There has to be an awareness of the necessity of the perfectionist role. And then it's also necessarily necessary to have the right words because we have to communicate to be able to have the right words to combat those criticisms. So someone saying, you're just holding everything back rather than saying, don't call me a perfectionist, you generalist piglet. But to say rather, hey, let's just consider this. What if I don't pay attention to the details? What if we do miss something and we end up spending all this time going down the wrong path? So the what if question is really a powerful one for a perfectionist is, you know, what if we do overlook this? Let's just imagine. I think perfectionists can also say, honestly, I drive myself crazy. I wish I didn't think about this stuff. But let me tell you what I'm thinking is if we don't look at the details and we aren't trying to get drilled down more into the particulars or the specifics, we could go in a way that really is unhealthy or wrong or destructive or problematic. And I think this little pause for me to check the details or handle the details is going to be to everyone's benefit. That's probably the better way to talk about it, rather than making it personal, is talk about the advantage of perfection and that tendency within the context of an event or project or an issue.

I'd like to also talk about it from a personal perspective. Someone that might not be part of a team, they're just an individual. And they're. Because I see this all the time, and I saw this even when I owned my staffing company is people, whatever it is, if someone wants to lose weight or they want to open a business or they want to do this new project, when they get so stuck in every detail having to be perfect, so then they are unable to really even move, which I'm thinking is a rigidity Right. And then they also have. We've done a lot of identity work together, and they have that Persona that they've embodied of being this perfectionist. So if they make a mistake there, it's a blow to their entire being, essentially. I was wondering if we can just kind of go there, too, a little bit.

Yeah. So I think this is it. People want to be loved and appreciated. So this idea of if I'm not perfect, I will be and. Fill in the blank. The opposite of loved and appreciated. If I don't get this right, everyone will hate me. If I don't get this right, I'll look like an idiot and I won't be popular, or I'll be ignored, or people will laugh at me forever, or I'm exaggerating, but it's some form of that. That idea that I'm not worthy of love if I get this wrong. Or in the positive, I will be more worthy of love if I get everything right. You know, one of those two. And what I believe is the best way to the antidote. That's what I was going to say. What I. What I believe is the best antidote to that is to find 10 people whom you love and you love and adore. And it could be someone you love personally. Your mom or your dad or your sister or brother. You find someone who you just love, and it's just bursting out of you. It could be Aretha Franklin. It could be someone that you don't know at all, but you admire. It could be a public figure, in other words. And just find 10 people whom you love. And then person by person, find a few faults, three or five that are total imperfections. So you say, for example, if it's Aretha Franklin. God, I love Aretha Franklin. She's the bomb. She's incredible. God, I hate those five songs. Or I just think this. This time when she's saying it was terrible or she gained so much weight, she's. She just let herself fall apart over the years. And you. You can pick out and be critical of some things about that person and then turn around and ask yourself, do I just love Aretha Franklin? And you say, I totally love Aretha Franklin. That's it. Knowing that she has her imperfections or she has the songs that you don't like, or if it's somebody you. You love who's personal to you, you find the things. What are the things that you really can't stand? Are there things that you just think are not good? Whether it's behavior or you Know a way someone does something or a particular about the person that you don't like that clearly demonstrates that person has a fault. The person's not.

Let's just tell them too, after they do this exercise, they need to go back into some kind of loving mode of like saying all the things you like about them. Otherwise when you see them, you're going.

To be, well, you pick the person. Like, that's what I'm saying. You're exploding with love for the person. But really, I think the thing is that we don't love ourselves and we don't love others because everything is perfect. Love is something that we feel. Love and worthiness is something we feel that goes way beyond all the specifics. There are things that we can let go of with ourselves and let go of with others. And to demonstrate in other people that we love them helps us look at ourselves and just say, oh, I'm lovable too, even if I have these imperfections. That's the point.

What is something the perfectionist might be saying? And let's think still about the individual. So when they're getting, taking on a new project or they want to do one of these, do the thing, type things, something, some kind of goal they have in their life, what's getting in their way, what's that thing that's blocking them?

Well, if they want to do the thing, there has to be like any plan, there has to be a clear, at least a clearly understandable outcome or goal. And there has to be some date involved. I mean, it's. If we're going to contribute anything on this planet, we have to decide we're going to do it in space and time. So be a perfectionist, but just know that that's one chapter of the plan. So if, if you want to be a perfectionist and you want something done by June 2nd, you can only be a perfectionist for so long or about so many things. So you want to have determined perfectionism. I'm going to drill down into the details and I'm going to be fussy about this thing and it really is pertinent to the outcome or it's pertinent in some way. But to really clearly say to yourself, does this really matter? Is this really pertinent? When I was making the list, I said about perfectionism is a necessary quality. Any tool you wield, it gets used sometimes. And other times you say that's not the right tool. You know, you decide you're going to let it go.

So you've really explained this well. For me, in the past with other things where it's. We have the shadow side and then the. The good side about it. We actually talked about this with me and my kindness because I'm so kind and you. We kind of went through this through our work together. Was the downside to being kind and with that does not do. Which we won't get into on this call. But I kind of like, I'm thinking that's where I want to go with this conversation because I feel like there's so much good. Right. That they have. But then there's also this side where what we talked about. Sorry. Where I was going with the kindness thing is you helped me understand how to, like, flex the muscle. On the bad side, what wasn't serving me so that I could work through understanding, like, so I wouldn't talk to myself badly when, when like, something would come up where let's say someone was disrespecting me because that's one of the downsides to kindness, right? Is that people tend to walk all over you. So you help me flex the muscle to learn how to notice that when it was happening. And so then I didn't take it personally. I just realized, oh, that's just. That's because I'm kind there. That's a downside to kindness. So I think I kind of want to go through that with the perfectionist. What muscle can they flex to once they realize, okay, this is my. I'm not moving because it's my perfectionist coming out? Maybe they've gone through the 10 people they love and they've done that. That imperfect thing. So they see it's not about someone not being able to love them.

They're so lovable.

Even if they're imperfect. They're asking themselves the what if Question. They're asking themselves, does it matter? Is this going to really matter in the long term? What are some other ways that they. Once they do that? Self realization. Okay, this is the downside to the perfectionist. Let me flex the muscle so I can move with this thing.

Apart from, I just want to add this apart from saying, does it really matter? Is what is the benefit that I'm going to get? Be very clear on that. What's the benefit that I'm going to get if I really put myself into perfectionist mode for this thing? Like, what is the benefit I'm really going to get? What is that going to deliver in terms of kindness? It's an interesting way that you brought that up. Kindness is often more often considered a positive attribute than a negative attribute. And I think what happened with you is you weren't looking at the negative side of the attribute and how that set you up for trouble. So it all of this depends on what is the viewpoint of that quality at the moment. If the person is thinking that perfectionism is a negative quality, then that person's going to feel incredibly tense and self critical of it. So the challenge will be to come and say, oh, what are the benefits to being a perfectionist? Okay, if the person is looking at the perfectionist quality and feeling like that's a positive attribute, then that person would feel relatively self righteous, not self critical at all. And those are two different paths. So it depends on the point of view of the person who's feeling like the perfectionist. Kindness, like so many people would agree, kindness is, quote, a positive trait. But perfectionism is really one of those traits that some people think is a real positive trait and some people think is a real negative trait. So first be clear, what do you think it is? If you're being self righteous about it, then you have different work to do than someone who's being self critical about it.

So I thinking, so where I'm going with this is what I'm encouraging people to do is if they are a perfectionist, it's to allow themselves to be imperfect as they're doing something, because imperfect action is better than no action at all. And so it's giving them that ability to do that. And through that though, I feel like they need to flex the muscle somehow so that when it's, they can't do it on some big important thing, they have to kind of start small and then realize, okay, nothing, nothing happened, I'm still alive. That's even. I've talked to some people that started businesses and this one girl I interviewed that had created these really cool cards, conversation cards, and she was talking about every detail and the color and the texture and the this and the that and this picture she had in her head. And she went through all these iterations of it. And when I had gotten the cards, I noticed none of that. I just noticed the thing about it, what the words said on the card. I didn't notice the feel, I didn't notice the color. So if she had this perfect picture in her head and it took six months longer because of that image. And I actually interviewed someone else who, who had said the same thing. And so that's what I'm thinking is I want to help that person move.

Yeah. Oh, gosh. So the situation is the per person is stuck, and you want the person to practice being imperfect.

I practice being imperfect or just being able to flex the muscles so they're able to move. And even this podcast, when I started the podcast, my first episode was in my car because I could not get myself to move. And so the only way I could get myself to move was to it in my car. And then the same thing happened when I did my 100th episode is I. I heard all these things and I asked people, what should I do for my 100th episode? Everyone got in my head. I mean, they were amazing. They were so nice. Do a Q and A. Do a zoom party. Do a have someone interview. Was like, all these things. And then finally I'm. You know what? I had just done a photo shoot with my daughter. It was raining one day, and we had it scheduled and we kept it on. And it's hysterical because I have the hundred, the 100 balloon that. The number 100. And it was raining and windy, and the wind's blowing, and so the pictures are funny because you can't even see the 100.

But it's just.

And we're in the rain. She's got the umbrella. She's taken my pictures. And then I was so overjoyed with how cool that moment was of my daughter being out in the rain with me as we're, like, taking pictures of my 100th episode that I got in the car and I. The rain's still pouring down, and I recorded the episode, and it was perfect, Right? And so I got. I got over that. This has to be perfect. It has to be this way in.

Order for it to work.

I had to flex that. Got it.

Okay. I think the easiest way for people to do that this specifically is with something that they can quickly change if they feel so strange doing it. And that is with our appearance. So somebody who. Let's say someone who's. We could say with clothes, somebody who's used to wearing certain outfits or wearing something that's very pressed or having whatever. Something stylistic that the person is attached to is. And considering that that's the perfect way to wear it or the perfect way to dress or the perfect way to be in style, that's a very easy thing to make a change on. Just to feel what it feels to break out of that attachment to showing up or looking a certain way. And it can be done just going to a store or. It's surprising how many people are attached to the perfectionism of, like, wearing whatever is in style or Having certain things match up. It could be a little bit more personal with somebody who does manicures or pedicures or wears makeup, wear it differently. Or instead of wearing the contacts, wear the glasses, or instead of having the hair done, just. So do it a little. Just that little tiny bit of risk that's that in the appearance is one way that's easy to do, that's easy to reverse if it's so uncomfortable, but just to feel that look, I'm just going to be a little daring with my fashion, or I'm just going to, you know, wear something that I want to wear and not think about how someone's going to look at me. That's an easy one, because it's not something that you're stuck with permanently.

And now let's go. Let's go one step further. So now would be another step, let's say, like, so the appearance is done and they've done that. So they flex that muscle. They saw it through. They didn't die. And now what would be something else they could do to get themselves to flex the muscle to see that they can move through it?

Anything where there are predetermined standards. So let's say it's a predetermined standard. You know how if you're in the grocery store line and the person says, oh, hi, how are you doing? It's a really nice day. How are you? But like, standard behaviors in society that signal to everyone we're all the same, breaking out of that is another very low risk kind of action. Because being the same as being a perfect citizen or being the same as being perfect socially and showing yourself that you don't have to be perfect. You could be the person who. You could decide to ignore somebody in a line, or you could decide to talk more in some standard situation. A grocery store clerk exchange is a sort of common situation. Or I'm in the city here. So it could be something like being in a cab or being an Uber driver, being in an Uber or Lyft situation. But some behavior that's considered standard and just, yeah, just do something that's. That just feels different. Because what this amounts to is like sort of being stuck in a habit or stuck in a groove. And even if you've never explored why, you don't necessarily have to know the reason why, but just step out of that groove that things have to be a certain way and just demonstrate they don't have to be a certain way for you to be alive or for things to be happening.

Yeah. So now, let's talk about. Let's say they're. The perfectionist has all these unfinished projects because they're stuck with it being perfect, and they'd rather just have it not get done than have it be perfect. What would be something they could do to flex the muscle in that situation.

To get something done, to be able to complete one?

What would be a way they could tackle those unfinished projects? That to be able to do the.

Thing, does it have to be just by a person, by himself or herself?

What are you thinking? Why don't you tell me your scenario and then we can see if that'll work?

Well, I'm just wondering. Anytime we express that perfectionism to someone else, we will inevitably attract the generalist. And so my first thought is, look, it takes people to bring life to life. So anyone who's working on a project has somebody involved, whether it's a partner on the side of creating the thing or an audience on the other side. For you doing the podcasts, your interest is in people. You are totally a people person. So just knowing that you've done your 98th, you've done your 99th, and it's time for your hundredth is the. There's somebody on the other side of that waiting for the hundredth. And that. That's kind of a positive pressure, is knowing somebody else is waiting, knowing somebody else is in need, knowing somebody else, you know, has some sort of skin in the game and wants what you have that nobody else can offer that's very compelling. Or having a generalist who's with you who is able to say, that's good enough, that's amazing. So making sure there's somebody else whom you're thinking about or including, which is for perfectionists, is. I think the worst thing that a perfectionist could do is invite another perfectionist. The best thing a perfectionist could do is say, yeah, I want somebody's take on this. Who's like, that's the value of a mentor or coach. Someone who's seen it and can kind of get a little bit more into a generalist role and say, okay, that part's ready. And then what has tremendous value is anybody who's trying to do the thing where, you know, as so many of your stories have shown you and told you, people are doing the thing because they want to make a change, an impact. They want to inspire, make something better, make someone else better. They want to provide something wonderful to this world. There's always someone on the other side of that. So rather than tapping into that Very, you know, self critical. Being alone in that project space that we can all get stuck in that little. I'm working on this bubble. Get out of that and get into the space of the person who's waiting for the thing that you want to create and really get clear on the fact that that that person's going to get pumped up or helped or inspired or enlightened by whatever it is that you have to offer. And they need and want and desire and seek that thing. And so, you know, to tap into that kind of excitement that goes with wanting to impact the world is. It's something that can get anyone over that. Ridge. Perfectionist Ridge. You just got to get over that.

Hump because you're taking it away from you and you're being. You said you're not going to be critical of yourself at that point because you're thinking about who's going to be receiving it on the other end. It's almost your. Is this part of the identify the why part of the do the thing formula, do you think?

Yeah, for sure. Because there's always the other person involved. Always. I mean for me, this, this idea that we're all in this together, we're where each one of us has something unique and we have an urge to do something because we want to make a difference. And how it's articulated becomes very individual. But the fact that we're all. Each one of us has some purpose to do something special on this earth for someone or something or some somewhat else, either a person, a place or a thing where we're trying to influence another human being or we're trying to change a place or we're trying to make something different that's very purposeful. That that is the why. Whenever we get in touch with that, it stokes the fire within us. It gives us courage. I think it helps us get over all kinds of obstacles. Perfectionist being one of those tough obstacles.

Yeah, that's really good. So some good things to kind of prompt yourself with to get you to move would be like we talked about, what if. Does this matter? Is this going to matter? What is the benefit I'm going to get when I do this? Who is on the other side of this project that's going to be receiving it? Was there anything else that I didn't mention that you think would be good?

I think one of the best questions is the drawback question to be able to say, okay, I'll back up a little bit. When we're trying to really dig into the details and be perfect about something, it's because we have the illusion that being, like getting the details more specific or getting it perfect is going to make it better. And I think one of the greatest questions that can be asked is something that I think back, I learned from my mom when she was teaching me how to paint, that mom would say, you know what? You decide where you're going with this. If you put too much into it, you'll make it muddy and it'll be worse. So in other words, what's the drawback of getting too detailed, of working something over and over again? What's the drawback? The thing gets muddy, it gets heavy, it loses its lightness and its freshness. What's the drawback of being getting too perfectionistic on something apart from the fact that time is lost? I'm saying, like, for the thing that you're doing, if you've said something and you've said it right, leave it alone. Because if you've already said what your heart has to say, leave it. If you ask yourself, if I keep working on this, what's going to be lost in it? How does the point of this get buried? Or how does the. You know, what's the potential drawback? That's it. And facing that is something that many perfectionists wouldn't even consider because they're under this illusion that if they keep getting more details and keep getting things more set and more set, that it'll be better. And that makes them lose the vision or it makes the project get muddied, or it makes. Of course, it makes time go by and they lose their excitement. There's a great cost that people don't face to see if it's worth it. Like, how does that balance? If I put all this work in making something more and more perfect, after a while it gets boring, tiresome, heavy, muddy. Don't feel enthusiastic anymore, really look squarely at what are the drawbacks I'm facing if I continue down this path of trying to make this thing perfect.

Yeah. And all the things that you're not going to get to do because you're still holding on to this one idea of this one thing.

Yeah. This is a life lesson. I think with perfectionism, it's really helpful to say, what's enough? What do I really believe and feel is enough? And defining that in a more. Or articulating that in a more intentional way, rather than kind of having this automated motor, it's almost pathologic, is I'm just going to keep going because I'm just serving the God of perfectionism to stop that and say, well wait, I want to ask myself a new and unique question. What really is enough? Like, what's the end point? I'm trying to do what's enough? Like for you, you were explaining about your hundredth episode, which by the way, I think that's fantastic. When if you had said to yourself what's enough? Inevitably you would say, you know, who is this for again? Oh yeah, it's for my listeners. And what is enough? It's enough to show up and be enthusiastic and all the wisdom you have in your mind, in your heart right now is enough. And excuse me, just picking one of those topics that's on your mind and, and the one that you feel magnetized by and that you wish, wish to share. That's enough. And enough being a good word, not enough being something to cast your eyes down at the idea of enough in the sense of in. I've been studying because I've been going to India for so many years and I've been studying ayurvedic concepts. There's one concept that's called purna and it's fullness, it's completeness. And there's even some interesting mantras that I can't quote them exactly, but it's this is, this is full, that is full, that's full when it's added to this, that's full when it's subtracted from this. They're all full together, they're all full apart is kind of the sense of the mantra it's called. It's like poornamida, poornamidam, poorna, purna, purna, purda, chate, something like this. The idea is that there's fullness, there's enoughness. And to be able to ask yourself, is this enough in the sense of is this full? You know, is it complete right now? And then trying it out, I mean, everything is trial and error. But getting to the point of saying, hey, I'm willing to say that this is enough right now and give it a try and then you always know you can do it again.

I like that.

There's always another chance to do it.

So for this person that's been in this analysis, paralysis and hasn't been able to move, what do you suggest for them to do tomorrow? The first thing when they wake up.

Tomorrow, what do they do if someone's stuck in analysis? Paralysis. Well, for me it always goes to self talk first is it's hard to say I'm worthy of love even if I'm not perfect. So that's where you want to get right. So I think the first thing is to connect internally with the value of the self, that that's what drives everything. And, you know, we. We can use our feelings about others to inform our feelings about ourselves. Finding out somebody else whom you love like crazy has some imperfections goes a long way to feeling inside. Oh, gosh, you know, I'm being too hard on myself. I. I know this is going to have some imperfections, or I know this isn't going to be exactly 100% right, and thank God for that. Then I have something else to do. And then planning your day. Like, I'm going to plan my day around the fact that I'm going to get stuff done because I know that I'm worthy of love, because I just can get something done. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be done. Or I have to make progress. I have to hit a certain amount of doneness.

So setting a goal to get something done that day.

Yeah, time has to be involved. Yeah, time has to be involved. Is really picking a time of the day or a day in the week and saying this thing is going to be done. Done is better than perfect. And I commit to this and I'm gonna do my best to make it the best that I can by then, but by then it's out there. That's why I said doing something so simple as appearance. It's personal enough to us, but it's not permanent enough to us. That is kind of a good way to stick the toe in the water. Totally changing the appearance.

I really appreciate you taking the time to do this and especially doing an impromptu episode as well. So thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Why don't you tell everyone where they can hear more about you in case they want to check out your all your great stuff.

Yeah, they can go to the blog@donewithanxiety.com www.donewithanxiety.com that's a good place to start.

Perfect. All right, you guys, thank you so much.

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