Episode 158 - Dr. Samuel West On Innovation and Progress with the Founder of the Museum of Failure

So, hey, everyone. Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. This is your host, Stacy Lauren. All right, guys. Well, my adventures continue. And I went to New York, which I will be explaining in a full probably episode, because I did some really cool street interviews while I was there for do the Thing. And while I was there, one of my only things I had pre planned to do was to go to the Museum of Failure, because I heard about it on the show the Prophet, and he talked about, he actually showed this museum on the show. And ever since I saw it, it was stuck unconsciously in my mind as something that I really wanted to go visit. And when I went there, it was completely what I wanted to see. It was so exciting to just get to see all these different exhibits of people and companies that have failed. So after the. After I left, I realized that I really had to talk to the person that created amazing space because what are we all scared of? Failure. Right. And to actually put it out there for the world to see. And how failure can be an opportunity for you to learn from your mistakes and to not be scared of innovation is something that I was just so excited to dive more into. So I am just so thrilled to welcome my next guest, who is the founder and the curator of the Museum of Failure. So I am welcoming Dr. Samuel west to the show. Hey, Samuel.

Hi. Thanks for having me on the show. Looking forward to this chat.

Great. I am too. I cannot wait to just talk to you about this because what an incredible idea.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks. I mean, I. I thought about it. I've been focused on and obsessed with failure now for seven years. Crazy how time flies.

I love that you say obsessed with failure. That is like the best way to word it.

Well, I don't. The thing is, I would probably get some kind of diagnosis today, but yeah, I definitely. Obsession.

I'd love to hear more, so could you, for the listeners and for me, because I am so curious. So what is your story? How did this start?

I'm a psychologist by training, so. And then I did. I did therapy in clinical stuff for about 10 years, and then I already had a career, but then I quit all that and did a PhD in organizational psychology. And my research was focused on how a playful attitude at work is conductive to creativity and innovation. And so that was really fun. I did a bunch of crazy experiments on work teams and playfulness. It was in my consulting business, in that research that I realized that playfulness is a good way to get people to be more creative and innovative because it allows us to fail. So when you're in a playful state of mind, it's sort of like it's not for real. So then it's okay to fail. You get that?

So, like, oh, I am totally vibing with you. When I was in college, I went door to door. I did door to door door sales. And so making it fun was one of the number one things that I had. Because then you can get rejected so much easier when you're having a good time doing it.

Absolutely. I mean, and it's also. It doesn't feel. It feels like you're in a different space from reality because it's. It's play and fun and you use some kind of imagination there as well. So I was fascinated with why, if play, a playful attitude increases creativity and thus innovation further down the line, what is it about play that it's so magical? And there's several aspects to it, but one of those is that it gives us permission to fail. It's okay in play to fail, whereas it's not okay in real life. It's more stigmatized. So that's where I got into failure. And why are we so afraid of it? And why is this paradoxical relationship to failure in our society where we glorify entrepreneurs and risk takers and say, oh, wow, you're so awesome because you're pushing things forward and you're taking these risks, but at the same time, when you fail, we're gonna. That's bad.

Yeah.

So what's the person supposed to do? Are we supposed to avoid failure at all costs, or are we supposed to be less afraid of it? Because society rewards those who take these risks. I mean, on a personal level and on a business level for sure, but at the same time, you get punished when it doesn't work out. So how are we going to have it? And I'm kind of. I was fascinated with that sort of dynamic. And then I was playing around with how to communicate all this, and I couldn't find any fun way to do it. So for a couple years, I was just, like, banging my head against the wall. I don't want to write a book about it. I don't want to do a TED Talk about it. I don't want to. I want something else. And I couldn't find that other. That. That thing until I found an exhibit called the Museum of Broken Relationships.

Oh, my gosh. I didn't even know that existed.

No, I mean, my museum is awesome, but they are much better than I am. That's an absolute genius exhibition. Museum of Broken Relationships.

Check it.

Wow.

I have to. Yeah. That's amazing.

So when I was there, I was like. I was so inspired by that. So as I never thought. I don't even like museums.

I got too much of attention deficit disorder for that. It was just amazing. I was like, oh, hell, if they could do it, I can do it.

Wow.

That was a long version of it.

Yeah. No, that's amazing. So you're really going about. You're kind of exploring with this idea of fun and putting fun into things, and then you're sort of dabbling with the failure. And then when you saw that museum of broken relationships, even though you're not a museum person, that just blew your mind open with what could be possible. And then you had that affirmation of, like, oh, they did something like that now. It almost gave you the belief that you could do something.

Absolutely. And it's fun. I mean, an exhibition is. I. I didn't know it at the time, but now I. I really appreciate it as a format because it's. You have to physically go some. You were at the museum, you have to physically go somewhere. And in this case in the States, because it's commercial, you have to pay to get in. Right. So, yeah, it costs you money. It costs you time. And during that small. That moment, you're. You have. You focus on those things. It's kind of like going to a concert. You can listen to music at home. Sure. But going to a concert is a different experience because you're sort of dedicating that time to that experience. And I think it's kind of cool. In a world where there's so many, so much stimulation and so much entertainment and so much trying to steal our attention, to go to an exhibition and just be focused on one thing for an hour or two, I think it's pretty cool.

It was so cool because I feel like you touched on all the different senses for people. I mean, you even had the R section in there, which I thought was really fun, and it added a whole nother level to it. And then the other sections were, like, interactive. I know. My daughter and I were on that chair, the ab chair for the hula chair. Yeah, that's what it was.

And are your abs sore now?

Oh, yeah, for sure. We were wanting to buy that thing even though it failed.

I wouldn't mind having one of those either.

I know we could. I could do it while I'm doing my podcast.

People be like, all right.

I know. It's funny. During the podcast, my dog, a lot of Times will come right next to me. So most of my podcasts, I'm like this, you know, like. Yeah. So the literature would be even a whole nother thing.

Well, I'd love to hear. So you saw this museum, the. One of the broken relationships, and then you've been kind of obsessed with failure. You're looking for something. You didn't want to do a TED Talk, you didn't want to write a book, so it kind of just stared you in the face. But then how did you then do the thing from there?

I was doing research and doing consulting and didn't have any. I mean, I couldn't afford to just dedicate time to work with the museum. So it was kind of progressing at a very slow pace. And then I applied for funding from the Swedish. I was living in Sweden at the time, the Swedish Innovation Fund. They finance innovation projects, usually tech. Tech focused. So I. And I got money from them to get started, but that allowed me to sort of work with this full time and even have a small team, so then I could work intensively. And it gave me money to buy the artifacts as well. And in the beginning, I, I thought that companies would be more open to donating their failures and fuckups.

Yeah.

But that wasn't true.

No, no, no, no, no, no. So I ended. I. I'd actually find them on Craigslist or, wow, ebay and stuff like that in the beginning. But now, now, once the museum has gotten so much global publicity and attention, now I don't have to buy anything. Now I get donation to the museum.

Isn't that funny how that works?

Yeah, it's so funny.

Yeah.

Oh, oh, wait. Everybody else likes you. Oh, so do I.

Isn't that so funny? I'd love to talk about when you decided to apply for funding. How did you even find out about that? Because I'm imagining the people that are listening, they have an idea and they don't even know where to start. Where did you even get that from?

So this is true in most, most richer countries, at least where you can. There's. There are a number of organizations, government and otherwise, that do give money to innovative projects, whether they're artistic projects or business startups. It's in the States as well. It's a very bureaucratic world. You have to be able to take your idea and frame it in a way that makes sense to the funder, and that's the difficult thing. So you might have a great idea, but if it doesn't make any sense from a perspective of what the funder wants to invest in, then it doesn't matter how great that you're not going to get any money for it. So for me, that was the important part, was to not be afraid of the painful proposition writing and all that.

It's horrible.

Nobody likes to write proposals.

Yeah.

So. But the good thing about writing a proposal about your idea, I've done it several times before, so it wasn't the first proposal I'd written. But it really does force you to think through your idea. It's so easy to have. Ideas are cheap. They're everywhere. Having a great idea is not that special. It's being able to communicate that idea. And if you can communicate it in a boring project proposal and you've refined and you've done a lot of that, so sort of hard work.

And then when you started reaching out to the companies to start to get their failure donations and that failed.

Yeah, no, totally.

What. What was that approach like? Because, I mean, that's you doing the thing is going after it and then you didn't make a story about it. When they said no, you could have quit. Right. When people kept saying no and said, oh, this isn't going to work.

Yeah, well, I'm embarrassed to admit it today, but I should have known better.

I should have known that the these. Because I worked. My client list was quite impressive. As a consultant, I had great contacts, at least in the Nordic countries, but it didn't help me.

So, I mean, I was like, hey, innovation director of company xyz, I'm starting Museum of Failure. Give me some of your prototypes that didn't work out. And they're like, no.

No, no.

And now you, now you're gonna have a waiting list because I know I do.

I don't have space there. There's over. I have over 200 items now.

Yeah.

Growing. So, no, I actually don't have space for it. Oh.

For people listening, this makes me think I have a really clear picture of what it's like because I've been there. Can you explain what it is for people listening and what you have in there, other than me now saying you have a rated R room and a. And a massage chair? I'm making it sound really weird.

You're making it sound really easy. Yeah, it's about 130, 140, I think we have in Brooklyn. Items. They're all failures. They're all innovations, or most of them are. And they're all. The third criteria for inclusion is that I have to find them interesting, which is completely subjective. But. And there's things in there. There's tech stuff, there's nostalgia. There's a Betamax vcr. There's a Polaroid video camera. Didn't know they made video. There's food items, There's Olestra. There's a calorie free fat substitute that gave people diarrhea or anal leakage, as it was called. And there's vehicles, Ford Etzel, Trabant from East Germany. And then there's Medic. We kind of have a section called medical mishaps. So medical. Both pharmaceuticals and medical technology that unfortunately led to death or suffering for people. Yeah, I've really tried to get a wide array of products. It's not just tech items or just. We have a bunch of silly stuff, like silly inventions that should never existed. Like Lulu Jar. I would put that in the silly category. So there's all that. I've tried to make it interesting so you can. I'm a total innovation nerd. So it was. I mean, it's easy for me to find things interesting, but I really wanted to make it interesting even for somebody who doesn't give a shit about innovation.

Yeah, I even liked the Oreo wall where it had. Yeah. Where it had all the different failed different kinds of Oreos. I had never even known they had tried that many different ones.

Now there's a lot. I don't even think we have them all. So there's a lot more out there that I have photos of, but I couldn't get the actual Oreos. Yeah, but the Oreo wall is kind of different though, because those strange flavors, some of them have failed. Yes. But not all of them. It's more there as sort of an illustration of an evolutionary approach to innovation where you just, you try things and see if they stick.

You know, it's funny you say that because I was talking to someone the other day on my podcast and we were talking about failure, actually, and the.

Only, only the only thing worth talking about. Yeah, continue.

Because most people are scared to put their product out until it's perfect. And then he had. He happened to have his iPhone right next to him and he's like, yeah, iPhone. If they would have waited till they had iPhone 13, it wouldn't be this popular. And I just thought that was interesting. How we are seeing it with one of the most popular products out there is how you're evolving and you're becoming better and better. And it's like you're, you're putting out what you think is good at the time and then whether it works or not. You're not going to know until it gets out.

No, absolutely right. Absolutely right.

What are you hoping people will get when they come to the space?

Yeah, I, I mean I hope that people. So I don't want people to think it's too entertaining. Although I see in the marketing that they're using that I have nothing to do with that. They're sort of marketing it as a fun and family thing. It's not, it's not fun for your. Your, your daughter liked it but it. Because she was with you there.

Yeah.

The exhibit itself is not that interesting to kids and it's not super interactive either. So it's not Disneyland. But I'm just being all negative here. So I want three things. I want people to understand and appreciate failure and the role of failure for progress. That's number one. And number two is I want people to pause for a moment and give failure some attention. And I mean if you don't work in these innovation intensive areas, it definitely is applicable for us on a personal level to think like don't be afraid of dealing with those uncomfortable thoughts or memories or feelings and just. It hurts. It's not fun. The only way you can learn from failure is if you're willing to think about it and talk about it with others. And that I hope that the museum inspires people to do. But the third thing is, which isn't my idea, this comes from visitors, is that I want people to feel liberated. That's something that I feedback that I get that many people say that. Yeah, I was there and I saw the big brands and these big companies that they, when they tried new things and they try to push the boundary forward that they fail and they have all the competence and all the resources and experience in the world and they still fail sometimes quite a bit actually. And then it's okay for us, the little guy to also up every now and then.

You know, it's interesting. I found this. I've. I've been talking about this for a while. At the end of the exhibit you have the share your failure on the.

Yeah, the failure confessional.

And so what you're bringing up right now, I think maybe the answer to what I was been so absorbed about because what I was expecting when I saw the failure confessional was the product failures people had or businesses. But it was a. Most of majority of the things on there are their personal failures. And I think that what you just said about that liberation, it really speaks to that it moved them by going through the exhibit and Then they're thinking about their own life and what they want to be able to do better.

Absolutely. And I think that's. For me, that wasn't my plan with when I designed it, but it's grown organic and it's really. I love it. I love looking and checking out what people have written on the Failure Confessional. The thing is there's so much that we have to go and spread them out because it becomes comes layers and layers of post it notes on the wall. In Sweden, when we opened the first exhibition, we actually it continued the failure confession and filled one wall and then we had to continue. We had three walls full of these people confessing or.

Wow.

Yeah. Publicly.

I just want to write.

What did you write?

Oh, I actually. Do you want it? I have.

Y' all want to know?

Okay, I'll tell you it. My mind was personal too. It was. And I talk about it on the podcast too.

Okay.

So. Oh, it's not a secret. Yeah. Well, I don't know if it started after going there. It might have started afterward. Actually.

I wrote I take no responsibility for any of this.

I think I went there the first day. Sorry, mom. Is there there? There it is. Okay. Yeah. I wrote.

It was a personal failure.

Those are the best.

Yeah. Okay. Trying to be what I thought others expected of me.

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Yeah. I mean on that theme, if you look at the other sort of themes that are up on the Failure Confessional, it's like I studied business for four years, have a degree in business and I realize I hate business or I followed my parents dream and not my own or I those kind of like important life decision where people regretted something or or made the decision based on what other people wanted rather than themselves. Those are quite those and relationships.

It's interesting because when I started do the Thing, this podcast is, it was about doing the thing, you know, like do it, do it, do it.

Yeah, go, go.

Yeah, go. And then it was like by episode 10, I realized it was so much more than that. It's doing the thing out of your own alignment and not following else's dream or comparison or people pleasing. It's really coming from inside of you. And I feel like that's probably where that wall really got me. Is it so connected to the work that I'm doing? And so it was cool to be able to see just a huge display like that of what's important to people.

Yeah. I mean it's also humbling in a way. Like. Like we're all in this together. We're all just fallible humans trying to make our way.

Yeah.

Sometimes things go well and sometimes they don't. And probably one of the most. I mean, if we're on, if we're going to go down, the emotional part there. One of my sort of strongest. It's going to sound stupid when I say it, but I did a small museum in Korea in Seoul, and the relationship to failure in the United States is fairly open. I mean, or it's fairly understanding of failure. And at least in business and other aspects of life, people are quite forgiving. And it's the American way, you know.

Yeah.

Whereas in Korea and other countries in Far East Asia, it's much more conflicted. There's much more social stigma associated with failure. And so I had this, a small version of Museum of Failure in Seoul just for a short period of time. And I was overwhelmed with people. I don't even. I was just there with the museum is my. It was about innovation and progress and all that on my regular stuff. But I was amazed with how many people came up and they had tears in their eyes and they were like, oh, thank you so much. And I thought, is this. Am I on some kind of handed camera or something? What's going on? Because this. I can't see the connection here, why it would be. So we have some AI robots on display, you know, and there's nothing emotional about the museum. But what I realized quickly, thank God, was that people were saying that finally I feel validated in that, yes, I've made decisions that fail, but that's okay. And it felt. I'm getting goosebumps. You're thinking about it now that in the States, we take it for granted. And in from Sweden, Western Europe, it's fairly like, yeah, yeah, okay, I screwed up and I move on. But for many people in Korea, it was much more difficult than where more so emotional than I expected. I don't know. That was a long way of saying that. It does strike a chord.

Yeah. And it's like you're freeing them because it's imprisonment when you have those feelings and those thoughts and then when you're able to, like you said, give someone permission for it. It's a freedom.

Yeah, definitely. So I see how I do suffer from verbal diarrhea, so I'm loving it.

No, I'm so excited right now. So. Okay. I could totally edit this if you want, but I have to go here and just tell me.

Just go, go, go.

Just tell me what you think so. Because I don't want to go too Much on the. On the sex room, but I have to go there.

Hey, I have no problem.

So. Okay. I have to ask you, because this, I think, is the coolest thing. And it shows that you live by what you're saying right now, where you're following your own passion, your own curiosity and what really lights you up. Right. And by you having that. That area that's sort of closed off for.

You mean the adult section?

The adult section. I think that is you following your own desire. Because other people might see it might. If you had talked about it to people beforehand, they might be like, oh, no, it's too risky or whatever it is. But I think the fact that that's there.

Yeah.

Is you living this thing, you know, I'm glad you.

I mean, you noticed it because, I mean, that's something that's very easy to. Oh, no, that's going to offend people. Let's not have it. Or the Donald Trump section. Like, oh, no, people might be offended. Well, yeah, they'll write some bad Google reviews then, I guess. But yeah, you're right. I mean, I think it's an important. And it's primarily a fun part of the museum. And why wouldn't. I mean, there's a lot. If you look in technology, the porn industry does lead the adoption of new technology. Has for the past 20 years. So why wouldn't we display some. I know we don't have any porn, but the adult industry, why wouldn't we have that as part of the museum as well?

Yeah. To me, that was so cool. And I was just curious. How did you. Because there's so many people that want to do something, but then they have that fear of offending people or fear that some people aren't going to like something. How did you follow your own gut on that?

It's. That's difficult. I'm not immune to criticism or what other people think, but I mean, part of it is I just feel like if I'm going to limit myself all the time or too much, and all of a sudden I'm doing kind of like what you wrote on the wall. I'm living somebody else's version of what I should be doing, and that doesn't feel right. And most importantly, it's not fun, then I'm working for somebody else and I'm not getting paid for it. Somebody else has their agenda and I'm supposed to follow it. Then at least give me credit or money or something for it. I can't do it just because you think I should. I Can't give any advice there because I, I am not, I mean I, it is difficult to do something that's not, I guess the adult room is not the worst thing. The biggest sort of, in this, on this theme. The biggest obstacle for me was the fact that I'm not an artist and I'm, I'm not a museum creator. I have zero. I'm a psychologist and a creativity researcher. I have not, I've zero to bring to the table in terms of a museum or art or anything like that culture. And for me the biggest thing was the people who are in power, who have proper roles and at proper museums and stuff, saying, who is this idiot? Who does he think he is? He doesn't have a single university credit in museumology. You know, here he comes in like a bulldozer and says, I can open a museum. It was more that, that was a problem for me of saying, okay, but I'm going to make a museum even if I don't know what I'm doing.

Yeah. So that actually, and I don't know if you want to label it, but I've heard a lot with imposter syndrome and people kind of pulling up that. How do you get over that? What's your strategy for being able to push through those things?

Yeah, I think my strategy, I'm a behavioral therapist, so I'm a big believer in exposure based therapy.

Oh yeah.

It's hardcore old school. And so I do believe that you habituate to uncomfortable feelings. So for me it was about doing it and then move your ass and your mind will follow. Doing the behavior and then dealing with whatever thoughts or feelings or internal crap that comes up, that if you're already behaving in a manner that you want to, then your mind will follow afterwards. So yeah, and I think, and I think that makes sense even in this. So if you talk about imposter syndrome, I mean if you, I mean obviously if you don't have any skills enough, you're faking your way, at some point it's going to catch up to you. I mean you, there's a limit to how much you can do. Fake it till you make it. It's not a strategy that works everywhere, all the time. And for me, I never faked it. I was transparent about not knowing anything about museums and I'm open for help and. But if you're going to sit and say, oh, you don't have a university degree in museumology, so you can't open a museum, then I'm going to call bullshit.

On that, I think that's the big differentiator is you having that open mind and being able to ask for help and learning from others and knowing where your expertise is and then being able to lean on the people that do know what they're doing and then being able to level through that way.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah. I'd love to hear, if you don't mind, you mentioned earlier, some crazy experiments on playfulness. I'd love to hear that because I kind of feel that as we're talking is that's like the theme throughout everything that you do is, is that.

Yeah, it's become that. I was originally going to do a PhD on happiness. I was obsessed with happiness at work and what makes our relationship to money and work and happiness. I wanted to do something, some research on that. And then before I wrote my sort of application to the PhD program, a friend or acquaintance recommended a book called something like the Power of Play or Power of Playfulness. I was like, ah, I don't know. I'd studied play and clinical psychology. It's something kids do. And I don't know, I'm not that interested in it, but it's like, you have to read it, you have to read it. And Stuart Brown, I think is the author's name is. And I remember reading this book and I was so interested in this. I was so fascinated by this whole new perspective of the play and that there was people who actually studied play and there's philosophies of play and there was practitioner. It's a whole universe out there. I had no idea that it existed. And I was so enthralled by this book that I read the whole book standing up. I couldn't sit down.

Wow.

Yeah. Great book, Great book. And it opened my eyes like, okay, wow. I didn't know this existed. So then I changed my entire research agenda. And like, I want to study playfulness, adult playfulness. And the context is work and innovation and creativity. Speaking of the adult theme, one of the first things, of course, I got accepted to the PhD program. I've got my position there in my office at the university. And then I'm going to start my research. I Google adult play. Don't do that computer.

There are other. There is place in us has many expressions.

So funny. Oh, my God.

Is that so stupid?

Abort. Please abort. Do not.

Yeah. No, no, no. Delete history.

Delete history. Yeah.

So what did you find? What were your experiments?

So my experiments that I did of the studies, first I interviewed play consultants. There's A whole world of those that actually play. Yeah, they're. They're fantastic, interesting people doing all kinds of stuff and sort of tapping into the power of play and just kind of got there. I needed to get a definition of what play is because it's so difficult to do research if you don't have, like, a good definition of what it is. And then I did. One study was focused on making meetings more creative. Swedish people love to have meetings about everything, all the time, and they're not always creative or productive. So one of the studies was seeing if I could trigger. If I could trigger playfulness with subtle cues and sometimes with not so subtle cues, and seeing what happens in a meeting room, if there are cues and triggers to get people to see their meeting in a little bit more of a playful way. So, for example, I would, you know, at boring conferences, I had a conference room with glass windows in a proper conference facility, very popular place. And so you have like, a bowl of fruit or. In Sweden, they have fruit or boring candy. Right. And so what I do is people would book this room knowing that they were part of an experiment, but they didn't know what was going to happen. So they had the regular meetings. And then when they took their coffee break and they leave the room, I would go in and switch. I would take away the boring conference fruit or candy and put something else on the table instead and not give any instructions. So I would put a big bowl of cotton candy in there. What? That was one of the conditions. And then when they came back in, they're looking at this like, what the hell? We're having a business meeting about corporate strategy. And then there's this. Oh, well, it's actually pretty good. And it's. You can't. When you're eating cotton candy in your business attire, there's something that goes, hey, this isn't business as usual. I'm allowed to be a little bit more playful here.

Yeah.

Put Nerf guns in the room.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah. Other conditions, like trying to see how it can be triggered and. And measured people's experiences of the meeting before and after with a control group. And meetings that were playfully queued were experienced as more. Both more productive and more creative than otherwise. And then I did another study, and my final one was, the biggest one was I used improv.

Oh, improv. Yeah.

So there's a group of practitioners all over the world to use improv in organizational groups and teams as training. And that's really very playful. So I did proper tests of creativity and Group creativity and a bunch of other measures and subjected real teams to kind of three session workshop in improv and compared that to a control group and results were magical.

Wow, that is so cool.

That was very cool.

What do you suggest? Do you have any thoughts on people adding playfulness into their lives? Something that can just kind of.

Yeah.

Change it up.

And now I've got some perspective on it. It's been five, six years since I did the research and I think the main takeaway message is that. So I started off with the research thinking that play was an activity. So I read that Google has ping pong tables in their headquarters or San Francisco company. They play video games on their lunch break or something. That's not. That's just one version of small slice of play. Play is an attitude and playfulness is an attitude and it's an approach to what you do. So you can do a podcast in a boring way, or you can do it in a fun way. You can do it in a predictable way, or you can do it in a way that's fun for you and your guests and your listeners. You can do whatever you're doing. I can write my talk when I'm doing a workshop. I can do it in a way that safe and play it safe and this will. Nobody will get offended. We talked about that before. Or I can do it in a way that's interesting to me and to others and that sort of gives people to make it more enjoyable and interesting and engaging for yourself and others and invite people to join. You can't force people to join.

I love that you're really showing the through line behind this playfulness and then the failure. Because you're talking about when you want to add playfulness into it. You can play it safe and just do the normal thing, or you can add some playfulness, but then you have to be exposed to failure and be okay with it if it does.

Yeah, yeah. And the thing about playfulness and is that it in many ways it's also you're vulnerable. So if I invite you, if I demonstrate my playfulness with you, a person, I'm doing something that's imaginative, it's creative, it's. I'm being vulnerable when I do or I or whoever does this. And in that moment the other person can either react with.

We don't do that here, or this is not appropriate or not engaged, which is fine, that's okay. They don't have.

Yeah.

Or they can say, yeah, no, I want to engage. This is cool. I don't know I think it's. I love it. A very positive experience if. If you're willing, because people are insecure with themselves and insecure in their knowledge, or if we were talking about imposter syndrome before, but people who are very insecure, they aren't playful, you have to be somewhat secure to be able to add that extra layer, that dimension play that's on top of what you're doing.

I love that. That's a really good observation. I'd love to know you went here. So I have to ask you your advice on this. I'm about to help. I think I mentioned before, a thousand people start podcasts, so what would be a way for them to add a little playfulness for it?

Yeah, I mean, for me, when people are playful, it shows. It doesn't. You don't have to do everything different. You don't have to have funny things or you don't have to do games. It's the way you approach the subject. So there's a philosopher of play. I love to quote German Huizinga, I imagine a very depressed philosopher, but he said that seriousness excludes play, but play includes seriousness. And I think that's super important to remind myself of, because the frivolous, the fun, it doesn't mean it's not serious. So the most serious, the most important things in our lives, we can approach it in a way it doesn't have to be stupid, silly, fun. We can approach it in a playful way and still treat it with utmost respect. So it's not about trivializing subjects or people or things. It's about showing it the utmost respect. So I think approaching a subject in a playful, explorative, curious, sort of experimental way makes it interesting for you as the host of the podcast and for your guests. So I would love to have a thousand playful podcasts.

I love that. I'm going to listen back and really dive in more into how I can incorporate that, because I think that would be really fun. I'd love to also ask you just. We'll go back to failure. How do you think someone can really approach failure? What do you think's kind of something that you would advise them to do?

One thing I've learned in the past six, seven years, being immersed in failure is that we tend to overestimate how horrible it is. So I keep revisiting that thought because it's. It's like other anxiety. They're about possible horrible future scenarios. That's what we're afraid of. And then those scenarios tend to not happen. So we're very afraid of something that could potentially be painful in the future when we are afraid of failure. But the reality is that the failures, it can hurt, of course, and be punishing in many different ways. But it's seldom sort of as bad and as horrible as we imagine it to be. And I like to remind myself of that and others when we're considering taking a meaningful risk. I mean, don't take the risk if it's not meaningful and if it's not, if there's no upswing, if there's no real point to it, but if it's worth taking, then be prepared for that it fails and own up to it. And you most likely will realize that it's not as horrible as you thought it was. And that's what many people who shared their failures with me and I've had great discussions with them, is that, yeah, no, it does hurt. No, you can't cover that up. It's not going away. Yeah, but it's not as bad as you think it is. So take that risk.

I love that because you're building it up in your head on what it could be, but it's really in reality. Even the worst case isn't as bad as what you're imagining.

No, exactly. Exactly.

How are you doing now that the Museum of Failure and you are getting all this exposure now? Is this a new thing for you?

I like the attention, definitely. And I still think it's fun. So as soon as I don't think it's interesting or fun anymore, then I'll probably become less available. But right now I still think it's fun and it's. I've done other projects as well that have gotten a lot of press or attention. I mean, for me, the mise and fair. I love it. So I'm not faking it. I don't have to wake up and go, oh, no, no, I have to. Now I have to talk about failure again. I enjoy it, so. And while that's the case, I'll keep doing it.

What you said is so important for the listeners to hear because you're not making this be something you have to do forever. Right? You're. As soon as it's not fun anymore, then it's like you're changing it. Yeah, you're changing it. And I think that is so important because so many times when people are doing new things, that's the extra fear is that, oh my God, am I going to really want to do this forever? You don't have to do it forever. Just do it till it's not fun anymore.

Yeah, do it until it's either not fun or you lose too much money on it or whatever your criteria are. Then anything you do, whether it's starting a podcast or starting a museum or anything like that, you give it your best shot. And then if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. It's not a big deal.

Yeah, I'd love to hear your number one piece of advice for the listeners on doing the thing.

I saw a book in an airport, sort of manage or like, you know, the airport bookshop, many, many years ago. And the name of the. I never, I never read the book, but I'll never forget the title. And the title was feel your fear and do it anyway.

I love that. It's not about trying to reduce or think your way out of the fear or it's not about using drugs or therapy or whatever mindful. Any of these tools to try to get rid of that fear. It's about feeling the fear full on and doing it. I love that advice.

Yeah, that's great. And please share with everyone how they can find the Museum of Failure and then also if they can follow along with you as well.

Yeah, museumoffailure.com is probably the best shot. The social media stuff, it's basically only active when there's an exhibition to promote. Otherwise I never check, but email and the website is probably the best way.

So. Good. Thank you.

So I don't know when this is published, but I just found out that the exhibition in New York has been extended until mid June.

Mid June. Okay, how does that work? So you then, where do you put it? How do you even figure out where it goes next after it's done?

Yeah. So I work with a company that specializes in touring exhibition, so I don't.

Have to do that much again asking for help. Right? We're going back.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, so basically now after New York, it'll probably end up in one of the other bigger cities in the States and then hopefully continue touring. As long as people are interested, it'll definitely keep alive.

Thank you so much for coming on. This was so good to get a chance to talk to you.

Thank you for having me on the.

Show and for the listeners. Do the thing. Don't wait for opportunity, create it.