Episode 198 - Dr. Amelia Case On How Financial Freedom Shapes Your Identity

I do really believe 100% from every part of me that everyone has the capacity to be able to do the things that they want and not to be held back by the mental baggage that's in our head that we want to push through.

Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. In each episode, we get down and personal with people who go after the things they want to make all their wildest dreams come true. Join us as we unveil and dissect a formula for what it takes to do the thing. Here is your host, Stacy Lauren.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. This is your host, Stacy Lauren. So this is actually going to be a cool conversation today. I have been exploring this idea for the last few weeks, actually, about what happens when you get to the point where you have financial freedom to do the things that you want. And I've actually noticed a plus side to it and a negative side to it, and it's something I've been exploring. And I was even thinking about putting an expert panel together of people that had financial freedom. I even emailed my wealth manager and asked him if he knew anyone that he could refer me to that would be good, where their passive income outweighs their expenses. And unfortunately, he wasn't able to because there's a conflict there. But anyway, then all of a sudden I've been working with my coach, Dr. K. Case, and I don't even remember how this even came up because we weren't even talking about this specifically. But all of a sudden she started talking about this and having material stability and how a lot of her clients are in that situation being high achievers and they've achieved a certain amount of money. And then also both the good and the bad side of that. And the reason why I think this is important for you guys to hear is because, first of all, anyone can do this work that. That you have to do. It shows that once you've reached a certain level, you don't escape the same that everyone else has to go through. It almost humanizes everyone. And then there's also a level of emotional freedom that happens by having financial freedom once you've done the work. And that's something I do want to encourage you guys to do, because I think a lot of people can get stuck really easily in that box of their income and by learning how good it could be for you also to have that financial freedom, it could maybe motivate you more to want to do even more things, to be able to generate that for yourself, because it is possible. For everyone to do in different ways. So, anyway, here I am. I'm bringing on Dr. Amelia Case. I've had her on several times before, and I'm so excited that she agreed to do this with me. And it's actually part of the reflection of our coaching from this month. So I feel really excited because by me being able to do it in this way, it actually helps me learn even more since I'm a kinesthetic learner, so I'm able to actually even absorb it more. And then also it's a way for me to listen back to her sessions with me, and then also giving you guys the opportunity to be a part of it as well. So here I am, welcoming Dr. Case.

Hi, Stacy.

Hey, how are you?

Great. How are you doing?

I am good. I am so glad you agreed to do this. I know yesterday when we were talking, I'm like, oh, my God, stop talking. This is perfect. We have to talk about this on the podcast.

Yeah.

I'm excited that you want to do this with me because I've been really exploring this idea lately of just getting to this point where I don't have to make decisions that I do based on the money that I need to make to do them. When I owned the staffing company, it was pretty much my life was devoted to the people that worked there where I felt this, like, internal pressure to keep them working. And so, I mean, it was at a cost. Right. Where I had to deplete every part of me to make sure that they were. That they were also having this job. And so what I realized since I exited, that I now am able to make all the decisions from my life because of me or based on what I want, and I'm not having to think of other people. And that's just in itself has been really freeing for me. And I recently. I don't even know if I mentioned this on the podcast or not, but I'll mention it now. I had applied for this podcast network application. It was through HubSpot. It's a really cool way for podcasts to elevate and share. They share your podcasts and stuff. Anyway, I had made the second round of that application process, and I remember I was already starting to curate my content because I'm like, oh, my God, they're looking at my podcast. I need to be careful about what I show because I want to. I want to show them my. This other version or. Or whatever. So I was careful about what I had on there, and then I ended up not getting that. And I actually felt almost relieved because I don't like curating my content. And then I had this happen again. I had applied to do a TED Talk, and I did not get that either. That not saying I don't eventually want to be a part of a HubSpot network or do a TED Talk, because those are all things that I'd love to do at some point, but I don't want it to be at a cost for myself. You know, I want to be able to really do things that are truly aligned with me. So, anyway, so that's been something I realized. And I think part of that is because I have the freedom to do what I want. Right. And then the other thing that I really wanted to talk to you about was that identity side, because I know that's what you're seeing a lot of with people that end up getting into financial freedom, that then they're like, what am I supposed to do now that I've gotten this goal? And they talk about that when Neil Armstrong went on the moon and had reached that big goal? And there was a few other people that I won't name because I don't remember exact facts, but I've heard really specifically that when they've reached these huge goals, then they collapse because they don't know what else to do after that's over. And I think that's when you see people. So anyway, that these are all the things I obviously have a lot in my head that I've been thinking about. And so this is great to be able to have this space with you and just talk about it and kind of see what you think. Specifically, I was thinking of what we were talking about yesterday when I've noticed this with the Maslov's hierarchy of needs. And I actually had explored the idea of helping people in prison with the do the Thing formula. And I had called a bunch of these transitional living centers that I had actually worked with when I owned my staffing company of people that were out of prison and getting into work. And I realized with do the Thing formula, they weren't interested in talking to me at all. They were, but when I was with my staffing company, they were really interested in talking to me because I had a job for them. And so because they didn't have security yet completely, they were still in this transitional place. They're not ready for the work that I wanted to give them. And so I think that's the same way that happens to people when they are no longer needing to earn money for themselves because they already have the money. And so. So then they're not burning that energy anymore. And so there's an amazing side to that, which is then you get to do the things you want. But then the negative side is that then you're spinning because you have no idea now what you're supposed to do.

That's so true. I. I can say, just from the point of view of doing this coaching, I've done coaching work for 25 years, or 27. I lose track. And the majority of the clients that I've worked with have had a real entrepreneurial spirit. So even if they were in a corporate position, they've been kind of the master of their own fate, so to speak. And also working at very high levels and getting very high salaries. And then people who have had their own businesses.

It'S not been unusual at all that they've exited at 80 million, 200 million, you know, around in that range. And maybe people basically like few in their late 30s, 40s, 50s, a few in their early 60s. So they've been people who've acquired a lot of social power, let's say, in their positions, and also money, wealth, financial wealth. And it sounds kind of strange to think about, well, what would they be having problems with? Why do they need a coach if they're that successful? And what I've noticed is that as they are, the decisions get bigger. So let's start there. So they have decisions and the decisions and responsibility get bigger. Now, that's normal. That's what happens with life, is we. We get responsibilities that get bigger and accountability that gets bigger. Life does not get easier or less responsible or less accountable. It gets more responsible and more accountable. And so they would get more and more responsibility and accountability, bigger decisions. And then the bigger decisions affected usually more people and always involved money, but in fact affected more people, whether it was shareholders or their customers or whoever their company served. And so it was pushing them to the max to make their good decisions. So that was one reason why they would ask for coaching. But also it squeezed them. So then they had. They squeezed their time, it squeezed their efforts, and then they had to decide what to let go of to be able to, you know, do whatever they had to do to reach whatever goals they were trying to reach. So it's funny that you said it comes at a cost. Success and financial freedom, any type of expert accomplishment comes at a cost because Everybody only has 24 hours and only so much of it. Are we awake? We have to let some things go by the wayside to Achieve. So the colloquialism that something comes at a cost is a very accurate way to sum up what somebody has to do, which is they have to let go of something in their lives. They have to let something fall away. They have to choose to let go of something to make something else happen. So these high achievers, they would let go of part of their lives and then have some suffering because they let go of part of their lives. And inevitably there was some friction there. So that was another reason for coaching. And then the one that probably has surprised people themselves the most is, oh, I just sold my company for 80 million. I just sold my company for 250 million. How come I don't feel like everything is fantastic? I have total material stability. I don't even have to work the rest of my life. Shouldn't I just be so happy? I feel so mixed up, confused. What's wrong with me. And what's happened is when somebody has been working so hard on the material things, on the financial things, and all that's entailed in either running an organization or handling many people or being responsible and accountable so much is actually, believe it or not, a lot of loss of self, not a lot of attention to self, and not a lot of attention to other parts of human beingness, let's say. So very often not even spending any time understanding their own psychology or their own spirituality, their own priorities. And so by the time somebody gets that financial freedom, think of the exact opposite word of freedom. Some people might say that chaos is the opposite of freedom. Some people might say being chained or trapped is the opposite of freedom. But think of all the words that are the opposite of freedom. And that's what people whom I can say have the most material success in life are sometimes the least free or the most constrained or the most lost or the most stuck in chaos because they've devoted themselves so strongly to one area of their lives and it's been at a cost to another area that trickles down to other parts of life. In the sense that you and I were talking a lot about how couples come together and what priorities couples have. And somebody who's been really searching for material stability and financial stability often will get criticized by a friend or a family member or a spouse and criticized for the things that are missing, criticized for going out to achieve that material or financial stability. And even though the person who's going after it might complain at the spouse or complain to the family or to the friends, get off my back. It's actually that very Thing that the individual ends up coming to me for coaching, for saying, I, I can't believe this, Something's not right. And there's so much expertise on the material, material and financial plane that the person doesn't even have any vocabulary around the mental, psychologically mental or emotional or spiritual life. It's really interesting that what that person was being criticized for earlier in the life comes back and becomes a priority later. And then, and only then, does the person suddenly have an interest in the vocabulary and an interest in getting out of that pain.

Yeah. And I'd love to hear for the listeners. So there's going to be some people listening that have sold businesses and that are like, oh, my God, I didn't know this was normal. Right. There's going to be those people, I'm sure, because I think you think you're. I don't want to say the word crazy, but you definitely don't feel normal when this happens to you because you think that you should feel great. And then I also wanted to know, though, for the people that aren't in this situation, why is this important for them to be still listening to this episode, do you think?

Sure. I think stability comes in many forms and seeing the grass greener on the other side. I've worked with people who've sold their businesses for hundreds of millions of dollars and have said, plainly said to me, I was the most happy when I first started my company and I had nothing. I had nothing but my dreams. I had all these dreams and all these things I could envision, and it was so exciting and I was so creative and I had so many ideas and it just seemed there was so much ahead of me and now it feels awful, it's flat. Everything's behind me. People who are working on material and financial stability, they tend to have support in focusing on those goals and they build excitement, have fuel, and there's the reality of possibilities. Like, I could do this, I could do this. I could go for that position. I could try this thing. And so as much as that seems effortful and it does come at a cost. Yes. But there's something wonderful about that drive and really enticing about the possibilities. And many people take that for granted and think, well, everyone has that. Well, no, the people who've sold their businesses, they, like I said, they've told me, I give anything to be back there when everything made sense, when I knew what I was going after. No, now I have everything. I don't have any less problems.

I actually want to add something because as you're talking, I'm feeling, I'm feeling something could be coming up for the listeners if you're noticing. And I had this episode, you guys with Ryan Moran. I don't remember the number, but he talked about people in their relationship to money. So if you're listening to Dr. Case and you're like, oh, those people are blank, whatever that word is. And if it's in a negative, negative, this is the time that you're noticing what your relationship to money is. Because when I was younger I mentioned this on a few episodes I had a negative relationship to money. I even when I sold bookstore to door, I would go to the middle the there, there would be these big brick houses and I would never go to those because I just thought the people were jerks because they lived in these huge houses. And I just had this impression until I worked for the sister company after I graduated of the book company and it was selling custom suits to C level executives and attorneys and things like that. And then I got to actually talk to people that had money. And I. That's when all of my beliefs about money changed because I no longer believed that people with money were jerks. I guess we'll just say for this. But anyway, I just wanted to point out that there could be something coming up where they're like, oh, those people are ungrateful because they have all this. So I wanted to address that because I think this, this conversation is good because we're getting people to feel in to how they feel about certain things. Number one, I want to help the people that maybe are in this position and they don't understand why they're feeling this way because yeah, to the looks of everyone, they have it all. And it's so frustrating when you get to this point where you're building and grinding and building and grinding and building and grinding. And then it's done and you should be at the happiest that you've ever been. And then it all comes out from under you. And then there's also the people listening that can't even imagine getting there and then might have some negative perception of it as well.

Yeah.

So some people.

I can say when I first had my clinic, which is how I started my professional life, it's in Chicago and I had all these people who were CEOs and presidents and super powerful people in big city jobs. And I grew up in a small town and most of my life was in a small town of 13,000 people. And the biggest fish in the town was the Guy who owned Mitchell's grocery store. And I would see all these people, they were so well educated and they were so powerful and they were coming in, they were so stressed. And I was like, what is wrong with these people? They have so much power and so much opportunity. How can anything be wrong? I think so often we just have sort of tunnel vision of our past defining all people for all time and eternity. I would compare everyone to the Mitchell's, Mitchell's Grocery. Or we think that anybody who has something outside of what we're used to is odd or strange. Or if we aspire to have whatever someone else has, we can in a negative way, we can call them names if they seem like they have it and they're not satisfied with it. So they could be ungrateful or they could be out of touch or something. I can say that of all the clients that I've worked with for these many years, every single solitary client I've ever worked with with great financial wealth started out sweeping floors at a restaurant or selling encyclopedias like you or something very simple. I mean, none of these people were born into money. None of them. They're totally self made. And so I have very little experience with people who have just walked into money and were born with the silver spoon in their mouths. When the people who worked hard sell their companies and they have amassed that financial wealth and they have complete material stability, they don't have everything because what they didn't practice or pursue during the years of making the company successful is still not there. So on top of that, and this is really bizarre how this happens, but on top of that they have mental stresses and spiritual stresses, I'll say, because they have real identity voids. But on top of that, if they've worked hard for a long time and they've been stressed for a long time, it's very common for them to be either overweight or have blood pressure problems or have some sort of health problem that is directly related to whatever was depleted or whatever they didn't pay attention to over all of those years. So sometimes I think at the beginning of someone's career, it's very difficult to convince those people to take care of themselves. Because it's hard for anybody who's younger to even envision what it'll be like in 20 years and that the body ages and then the mind and the identity needs certain nourishing and fertilizing and support over those years. So it's kind of like it's a rite of passage to have success and Failure. At exactly the same time, material success comes, but then there's the failure in some other area of life or aspect of being a human being that just seems to go along. I don't know anybody who has mastered the art of making it all balance all the time throughout life. Whatever it is that we're working on, we let other things go. And then what's kind of interesting is that you and I were talking about the couples thing. It's very interesting how people will often attract the person who's good at the thing that we've let go of. So it's not unusual for. Let's say, I've worked with a lot of men, for example, who are very driven, very focused on material and financial stability, and they tend to attract a wife, a woman who is more interested in family and gripes. And as the men say, oh, she gripes with me all the time because she says I'm not home enough or I'm not doing the kids stuff enough. She's taking the role of the thing that he's forgetting or letting go of. Or she's the one who says, we have to go to church or we have to go to synagogue or we have to have our spiritual life. It's funny because that is the subject where they don't get along and where there's friction. But I think that's one kind of natural way that in some universal way, there's some balance. There's some chance for balance is attracting that equal opposite person who kind of reminds you of the thing you're forgetting. But, yeah, it's. It's one of those things that I can say with a great deal of certainty is not an easy road for the people of financial and material stability. It's not an easy road to be there. It doesn't mean that everything else is just all good. In fact, I'm saying it means the opposite very often.

Yeah. And I think the reason why I was excited to. To talk to you is the part where you were kind of showing that piece of. When you talked about the person that was amassing it, right? And they're like, the process was the part that was so exciting, right? The grind and all that. And it. And to me, I think a lot of people get stuck in that process part because it is tiring and it's exhausting. And you're like, where's the end? But if you could learn to almost convert that process to be the journey and to find the joy, or maybe the process is the destination, like, that's the fun. It could get people to be more excited to actually do the work.

Yeah. I define success as the progressive realization of your highest aim. The progressive realization of your highest aim. So in. The highest aim is something that just like you learn new vocabulary and you have new opinions over time. The highest aim gets expressed slightly differently, but it's always kind of the same thing. Whatever it is that's interested you and compelled you and attracted you, probably if it did when you were little, it probably still does in some form, but it's. It's a little different. It's articulated different. But the progressive realization towards that the highest expression of that aim is what I would call success. And that means that on a day, to day or week to week, month to month or year to year, whenever anyone can say, I can see my progressive realization of that thing, there's meaning and excitement behind whatever the things are that we're doing when we see that they are all connected to realizing our highest aim. And a great highest aim is actually never realized. It's when that highest aim is realized that we feel empty. So to keep. I think that's one of my jobs as a coach, is to keep saying, let's refine this and let's come up with whatever this is so that you know where you're going. That's why I think after people retire or sell their businesses, you see the stats, they die and like, oh, that person got all that financial materialist success and then died. Well, because there wasn't an adequate articulation of what comes next. It's almost like the wick burned to the bottom of the candle. So that the idea of progressively realizing your highest aim, it takes time to articulate that. And maybe that's periods of reflection. A lot of people just don't set aside periods of reflection or review and reflection or real goal setting and planning that's connected to whatever that highest. The highest expression of the aim is goal setting and planning. Or I think a lot of people try to do diy. I am a big fan of mentors and coaches and teachers and looking and reading examples of great people and biographies so that there's some example or some responsibility and accountability and witnessing of somebody else involved in this process. So there's a way to progressively realize things more easily. If you're either modeling somebody or you're getting taught a new aspect of whatever you want your highest aim to be expressed as, or you have someone who's a mentor who's saying, come this way. This is what you don't know yet. Or when you have a coach who says, let me show you back what you're saying to me.

In whatever form it comes, it's so important to take ownership of whatever it is that that highest expression of your aim is, and take ownership of that progressive realization to it so that you feel fulfilled and excited and purposeful, and also so that you don't feel burnt out. I think the people who really are clear on whatever the highest expression of the aim is, they tend to maintain their energy because there's the fire within. You know, the enthusiasm is present. If it feels like it's disconnected, anything anyone's doing when it's disconnected to whatever is supposed to be that highest aim, the person will feel like worthless, useless, useless, fatigued. They will feel disconnected because. Well, because it's not connected. If it's not been mindfully connected to whatever the highest aim is, it'll seem like a throwaway experience. And who wants that? Right. That doesn't feel good inside.

Yeah. And what. What would be your way to suggest, in addition to someone getting a witness or coach or a mentor, but just to kind of like getting started, what would be your suggestion for someone to start to have that understanding of the progressive realization of their highest aim?

Well, don't be afraid to say what the highest aim is. I mean, if. If you could say whatever your highest aim is, say it and say it out loud and say it with certainty and joy in your heart. And here my. My highest expression of my. What I believe is my purpose is. And this is going to sound crazy, but I'm going to say it is. I want to put my arms around the world. I literally have an imagination, an image in my own imagination where I feel like I want to put my arms around the world. And I just said that and I get chills. Other people might listen to that and say, she's stupid. What the hell is she talking about? The world is big and you know, she'll never be able to do that. I don't care. That's what I feel. That's what I feel. So most people, when I've seen people really, and I'm talking about, like super powerful people, even a lot of people are kind of stiff. I'm thinking of one of the guys I worked with who's a big, powerful CEO, you know, six foot four, always in this perfect suit. And it was hard during a coaching session. It was really hard to get him to feel. He was so logical and he was so. I don't know how to explain this, but Rigid somehow, but to get him to feel what's really important to him. This was right before he retired, and he did retire from that company. And then he started something brand new. Because of this feeling, he found out what was the most important thing to him was. And the thing he had loved most in his life was nourishing up and coming leaders. And he loved, absolutely loved that, and he didn't want to give that up. So when he had a feeling that that was really what had made his career what it was, all of a sudden he was like, heck, my career's not over. That was really the purpose of my career. I happened to make all this money along the way and achieve all these other things. But the thing that I loved and the thing that made it worthwhile was bringing these other leaders up and showing them who they are as leaders. And so that's what he loved to do, and that's what kept him going and made him decide to continue his career. So that's where it starts, is what is it really that your highest aim is? And you want to get a feeling first, and then out of the feeling, then you pick the way that you, you want to do it. So the way happens to be related somehow to whatever your strengths are. So my strengths are, you know, I happen to have been born with a really good mind, so I take advantage of that. When I was 12 years old, I was already 5 foot 7. And so I've always been kind of a tall woman, tall girl, I'm five, nine and a half. It made sense for me to want to use my body somehow. So my career, being interested in what touch is all about and what the physicality of a human being can be and do was just kind of natural. And to feel emotions through people's physical tissue came very naturally to me. And my value in communication and listening to others and hearing their experience and really having this pure sense in my heart that I want people to feel free in their bodies and feel free in their minds, led me into my strengths and then led me into becoming a coach and owning my, my multidisciplinary clinic. No, that was just taking my strengths in a certain place. So the next place is, say, what is it that you really want to feel? And then what are your strengths? And trust your strengths. You were born with your strengths for a reason. It's not random. Trust those strengths, and then when you start to be able to articulate that, admit your strengths, and own whatever it is that you feel, that brings you excitement and brings you a sense of purposeful destiny. Then once you have that, you have what's called genuine interest and a genuine can do kind of feeling. I have these strengths, and even though that I don't know how I'll do it, I feel I can do it. I feel I want to do it. And then what life is is the discovery of the how. That's where I say to people to begin. If you begin by saying, you know, what should I do? You're cooked. The minute the should word comes in, you gotta say, okay, that's probably not me. If should comes into the language, you can be sure that it's some authority from current or past kind of infecting the brain. So the minute that should comes in, I would say think twice about that. That's probably not genuine or authentic to you. It might mean you're trying to please somebody or be approved of by somebody. The idea is to really, what is it that you dare to enjoy feeling about yourself in the future? What is that? And then explore that. And what is it that you want to do? Okay, I say I want to put my arms around the world. I want to say I can help you and hold the world and say, there's so many solutions I want to share with you, and you'll feel better when you know these. That's my feeling. And then my unique strengths I put towards that. And then my life, like your life, Stacy, and everybody, is that unfolding of, how do you do that? And so you get these different scenarios where you go, okay, now I have to figure out how to do it here. Okay, now I got to figure out how to do it here. Okay, figure that out. Oh, didn't figure that out. So now I got to figure out a different workaround. How. But that's really what ends up happening. And then the driving force is the feeling. The feeling feels good. And then using the strengths as natural. So those two things are out of the way. Whenever I meet somebody who is going after a goal and the goal isn't exciting, and the person is really gutting it out, and it's not in their strengths, I know that that's not an authentic goal. And I know the person's working actually against the strengths because if you're not working with them, you're working against them. I mean, that's a universal truth. Then the other universal truth is while people are working on something, it does come at a cost because it's very difficult to make everything important when something's important. And so at the end of any achievement, there's this moment of noticing that the things that haven't been paid attention to have suffered. That's just plain and simple. And everybody experiences it. Yeah.

And you're making me think of what prompted this yesterday. I think you said it's almost like what happens is because those. Those needs were met. Right. So you're no longer. It's like an emotional energy. Once you. Once you reach financial freedom, your emotional energy is no longer put on you making money to live anymore. And so then you're not. It's almost like that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, again, just at a different level. Because otherwise you're thinking about how you're paying your bills, and you have to act a certain way to be able to do that. But once that's gone, the question that comes up is, what was all this for? Especially when they're still not happy. And so I think the cool thing about having you on here and talking about this is this is something everyone can do regardless of where you're at. And it's important because people that are in the situation where they're not having the financial freedom, that's what a lot of people are striving for, right, Is to have financial freedom. But they're not thinking of that question of how do I want to feel? And getting into that first.

It's almost.

That could be where you start.

Like you said, that has to be where you start. Because otherwise talk about wasting time, effort, energy, money.

There's only one thing we never, never get back, and that's time. So to revisit that and say, do I feel I'm really on a purposeful path? I've had some people, when I used to teach bigger classes, some people would say, like, oh, Dr. Case, basically, you're full of it. You know, we have to live in the real world. We can't be purposeful. I need a job that'll pay my bills, that type of thing. And I would say, no, no, no, no, no. You don't get away with that. I'm sorry. You have strengths, and if you're using your strengths, it's for a purpose. And if you haven't connected the dots, that's your problem. You have to connect the dots. So you have to say, be honest with yourself about what it is that you feel and what is it that you want to achieve and how does it make you feel? And then look at your strengths. If you're using your strengths, somehow it's moving towards that place, it's moving towards that achievement. And if you aren't seeing the relationship, it's because you haven't looked. If you want more of a relationship, then you'll be willing to do something different. Change your job, change your career, move house, move somehow, somewhere differently to make sure that you are aware of it. But you don't get to say no. That's a luxury. That's just plain false. I'll tell you a quick story about this. I happen to be paired up with a woman in a group I was in and she is a transplant surgeon. She does transplant for kidneys. And so I'd like to tell you how she got there. So very high performing student, ended up going to medical school. Not easy to get into medical school. Ended up going through her early training and decided she wanted to do a specialty in nephrology, which means she became a specialist of the kidney. When she went in to be a specialist of the kidney, she was dealing with people who have kidney failure and she hated it. She hated dialysis, she hated everything that had to do with this kidney failure job and felt purposeless. Okay. And so she decided, I can't stay as a nephrologist dealing with dialysis. I'm going to change, I'm going to go back to school and become a transplant surgeon. So she went back to school to become a transplant surgeon. So she thought, oh, now I'll be happy if I am taking kidneys out and doing the excitement of surgery. I like my job. And then she hated her job, still said, I can't stand this. So meanwhile she was married, then having kids. Then she decided something is wrong with me. I was a nephrologist and then I was a transplant surgeon. I still don't like this. And she went to get her mba. And then after she did her mba, she said, this is crap. I don't want anything to do with what they're telling me to do with this mba. I don't want anything to do with it. She threw her hands up and then she decided somebody inspired her to look at doing an online course and offering an online course. And she said she didn't know why she took this, but she decided to take this. And this is where we met because I was working on my online course to be able to offer some of the things I do online. So I asked her, it's funny because I sort of turned into a little bit of a coach for her because we were paired up and I said, well, so why do you feel so discouraged? And she said, well, I just wasted all this time and I Said, well, but your course is on how to take care of your kidneys so people don't ever get disease. And you know that better than anyone else. You've taken care of sick, sick kidneys, you've transplanted kidneys and then you've got your MBA to learn something you've never learned before about business. You were all science before and now you're going to take all those skills and do the thing that you've ever wanted to do since you were young, which is teach. But teaching didn't have any money. So the point is she was on this journey. It was all connected. She went to medical school. Well, because it was more lucrative to be a doctor than a teacher. She went to medical school, didn't like being the nephrologist, became a surgeon, got even a more intimate understanding of the kidney, went to get her mba, could see what business is like. And then going into learn online business, she thought this was not a failure but a choice, but kind of a bizarre one. And she had, I think some, this is my words, not hers, but I think there was some maybe embarrassment or shame about doing something like who goes into online business after you're a doctor, a surgeon and have your mba? What she ended up realizing was, oh my God, I get to take all that stuff that I've ever known and I get to apply it and be the thing that I've been on the journey to become my whole life. And now I've got the authority and the understanding and the know how and knowledge and the certainty to help other people. And in fact, when she first opened up her website, she said it just exploded with business from all over the world. She said, I don't even know how these people are finding out about me. But all over the world, because all over the world people want to find solutions to take care of their kidneys so their kidneys aren't failing. Right. Or people who've known other people who've had kidney failure. This is a classic example of somebody who had not connected the dots. And so to get to the point where she was and to look back in any way, shape or form, say oh my God, what a waste. I think is a travesty because what happened was this incredible unfolding of how she was going to take her strengths to achieve her original highest aim, which was to be a teacher.

I'm also wondering if you could speak to that other side since we, I like to always do the good and the bad side of everything, as you know, I mean, obviously there's A lot of good. That is obvious. But my thing that I've been really exploring is that idea of just that. Again, the emotional energy also is gone. The good side of the emotional energy being gone of where you're making money. And so then you have the freedom to be able to do whatever you want coming from totally inside of you. And I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on that as well.

Yeah, if you can get to that place of a beginner's mind again, I think that's definitely a place to really enjoy not having to think about building up the material stability. It's a time of rebirthing in a way, and it can be just as creative as the beginning of the original project. And it's also, I think, a great time to gather up perspective. Most people who have sold their businesses, I have to put their arms behind their backs in a way, and wrestle them to the ground and say, you need to stop and you need to gather this data and really look at what it is that you've been doing, because this is the material for your future. You know, you want to. You want to take all that information in perspective and. And coalesce it and make it so that it is a firm foundation to use for moving forward.

I remember you doing that for me. I had three businesses that I was messing around with starting, and then you said I had to wait six months.

I did. I had to wrestle you definitely have had to wrestle you. It's a beautiful place to be and worthy to go for, and I'd love to see people really establishing what that means for them. I remember when I found out, I was learning about just putting money in the bank, and I remember learning that there's different levels of interest and saying, oh, at 5% interest at whatever time that was, if there were $4 million in the bank, that would make $250,000 a year of interest. And that is the goal. And I remember saying, ah, I've never heard somebody just put it in really concrete terms like that. So what is it that the person wants to achieve financially? My brother, he said what he wanted to achieve financially, and he did. And nothing's changed in his life. He works and he still works and he still has all the same habits, but he's already achieved his financial goal. So everything about his life has eased up. He hasn't changed a thing. He still works as much, but he had the goal and he achieved it. And I think that's kind of rare to have. Whatever. What's the number you want to get to. And go for that and then just know that there's life after that and that life has to be defined.

What do you think it is about? Because the piece that I'm just really loving is that. And, and I don't know if everyone gets here, but this is where I'm at right now. And I really like it because it's very new for me. Have never been here before. Is everything that I'm doing is from where what I want to do. And not because someone, I mean, because I. All, all these people are coming to me now, right. Would do the thing because my book's going to come out end of the year and they're like, oh, don't talk about dating on the business side because you're known as CEO of this million, you know, multi million dollar company. And don't talk about this and don't talk about that. You don't want to get pegged as this certain thing. And honestly, I thought I took a little bit where I'm like, oh, you know, like, is that what I want? Is that not what I want? And now I'm to the point where I don't care. If you don't want my message, then you don't want my message. But I don't need to conform to anything that some random person perceives of my brand. Right. And I think we talked about that yesterday and that's what I'm so excited is, think what you want, but this is what I'm doing and it's coming out of my being and my soul and my heart. And I think there's that kinesthetic learning thing I had to mention, you know, in the beginning that I really love because I am learning. I don't know if the listener gets it as much as I do, but because I'm interviewing these people that are so amazing and able to really get into the patterns of how they do the things they want. It gave me life back and energy.

Yeah. Well, you are a people person. And so, I mean, I can say this with complete certainty, is your strength is being used. And when your strength is being used, you know that you're on some sort of proper path for you because it comes easily. What you're doing does not come easily for many people because it's not their strength. And so you have this strength and you're using it. And the feeling you have, even if you haven't fully articulated it yet, the feeling that you have is that highest aim and you have a sense of moving towards it. And so that's when we love ourselves the most, and that's when we really don't care what anyone else says. I think many people give themselves that freedom only after they have material or financial freedom, but that is not a prerequisite. So, I mean, I do not have financial freedom in the sense that I can't just say I'm never going to work again, but I have that. It wasn't a prerequisite for me, and it's not a prerequisite for a lot of people. But it's that idea when you are really using your strengths and you like the feeling of what you're doing, it makes sense to you. The feeling that you get. Then you love yourself, you love being yourself. And then to hell with anybody for saying don't be yourself. And you yourself, you're the ultimate brand. You are your own brand. And so if you even try to cut out a little piece of yourself, what are you then? You're not you. And what are you trying to be or not be? It gets in really a slippery slope there. You have to be yourself and really love being yourself to be. And then I think that's when you are really in a very rich place in life. And that could be rich financially and it could be rich psychologically and spiritually. There are different ways of having wealth. So you happen to have given yourself the right to do that after you got the material and financial freedom, you gave it to yourself. But.

And how does someone do that if they haven't been there yet? How do you get to that place? Because it is such a freaking fun, amazing place to be.

Yeah. You have to. You have to do exactly. What I was saying before is you have to have this feeling of knowing what it is that is worth that effort to progressively realize what is your ultimate aim. And like I said, it's not something that's necessarily logical because first it starts off being a feeling. A feeling. Then you have to look at your strengths. When we're using our strengths, we feel positive about what we're doing even when things go south and we've all had problems. But you don't care because you're using your strength. And the feeling that you have is moving you forward. So that is the prerequisite right there. Now, because people don't give themselves that gift, they don't necessarily sit down and articulate, what is it that I feel? That is the feeling of I want to move towards that particular aim. What is it that I feel is worth my attention or worth articulating? So I feel it's worth to me, myself. And like I said, you might say, what the hell is she talking about? But for me, I say I want to put my arms around the world. Okay, that's totally not logical at all. But that's how I feel. And I really feel that way when I say that to myself. I feel elevated. Okay, that's how you want to feel, right? And then you want to say, what are you? What are my strengths? And then when you're using your strengths, you feel so at ease and it, it feels like you're getting to this point where you can make, you know you have a strength, but you can always be better at the thing or make it better or learn some new aspect about yourself, how you can do something better.

Yeah, you're making me think I have to ask you this question. So I'm in the middle of the do the thing start a voice challenge. It was a 17 day mini sprint challenge in that singles community that I'm running, right. And people are, I mean, it's so engaged. The people are getting huge transformations already. And I think I'm on day. What am I on? Oh, I'm on day six already. And some of the dares that they're getting are to record what's something you've done recently that you're proud of. If you were writing a book, what book would you write? What is your ideal day? What is something you do really well? So I'm getting their mind to work, right. And it's been amazing, the ideas and the things that are coming from them. And I'm just wondering, actually, this could be a good chance for me to help them process what this is. And I just was curious, as we're on this topic, if you had any thoughts on that as well.

Yeah, I think that's the discovery. I mean, it's a discovery that you want to celebrate each milestone in that discovery process. So that's how I would approach it. I would say if you had to articulate today based on your experience, find your voice challenge. How does this fit into your highest aim? And say whatever your highest aim is. And don't be shy of saying whatever it feels like, whatever comes out of your mouth, that's how I would start. Because it's not. Logic does not motivate people or inspire people. It's the feeling. And it's. Then we want to put words to the feeling. So get in touch with the feeling first. So they're already having some feeling and then say, how does this fit into what you'd like your highest aim to be. And imagine that and play with that. And. Okay, now say it. Okay, so that's a wonderful way to start. And then you could say something else, which is you could say, how is it that you want to use this? Your experience? The Find a voice challenge to achieve something, I say progressively realize, but that sounds like kooky language. But to achieve something on the way to your highest aim and achievements can be things that only we know. So, for example, I have a personal commitment to speak to and treat people, whether they're patients in the clinic or they're my clients that I'm working with, coaching. I have a personal commitment to take care of them the way I would take care of my mom or my sister, my brother or my kids, my husband. I want to take care in that way with that quality. And so I progressively achieve that when at the end of my day, then I can say, did I do the best that I could with all that I have for these people that I made a commitment to help? And so every day, when I say that sentence to myself, I say, yes. And then I say, wow, I love the way that feels. You see how that's a feeling? It's an achievement. It's a feeling, but it's not, oh, I did another tit on a paper, like, check. I got that one. That one. That one. It's not always countable like that. Is it realized so you can realize it materially? Like, okay, I put another hundred dollars in the bank. That's a realization of cash. Or I realized it because I ran that marathon in under four hours. There are things that we quantify, and then there are other things we qualify. Progressive realization includes both. Achievement includes both of those things. So that's how I kind of go at the.

Yeah, no, I like that. I was thinking, too. I'll give you one example. The dare was record what is your ideal day? And then she basically said, my ideal day involves waking up at my leisure, getting outside into nature, and doing something that brings me joy. Loving on my fur babies, eating great food, getting into some meditation and journaling time, perhaps chatting with a friend for a bit, listening to good music or podcast while crafting. And so I'm excited. She has a really great picture of what her ideal day is now. And I'm just wondering. And. And this is good. I'm saying this for you guys, too, because anyone can ask this question, right? And now you can come up with what your ideal day is. And then what would be a step from There that they now do to really kind of take it the next step, Whether it's. Feel it more, you know, for this woman.

For this woman. Yeah, yeah. I would say, what do all those things have in common? What's the common thread there? Is it something so simple as a feeling of fresh air? What is it that you feel really in touch with your body? You feel connected to your physical body? Sounds to me like she's. There's a. The quality of physicality there. And then I would say, what is it that you do really easily? What's kind of your natural ability? I would want to get in touch with that. In other words, what are her strengths? And then I would say, well, when you're imagining what is it that you would love to aim for or achieve, that you feel like only you can understand yourself, that you would like to achieve this, what is it that you would love to do? There's no rules in the universe. There's no logic. What is it that you would really love to be or do or have? And then I would just listen to that free form word flow. And when the person, when she would get tears in her eyes, which inevitably people do, I would say, I would track that. And I would say, stop there. That touched you. When somebody is moved by whatever it is that is being envisioned, that's like code. That's a code. And it means there's so much inspiration. Those are tiers of inspiration. And so those are really important moments to pay attention to. Whatever it is that came to you. The reason I say I would love to wrap my arms around the world is because when I was in that state, sort of, let's say a meditative, reflective state, the. The feeling I had of that brought tears to my eyes. And so I just trust it. I trusted it then, I still trust it now. And it still makes me feel like it almost makes me giggle because it's. It's absurd, but I still feel it. So that's what I would do with her. And I would love to hear what it is that she would come up with. I think that each person will say it, verbalize it differently. And that ability to be childlike, envisioning and playing with what is in your mind is something that we let go of too fast. And it has enormous value. And I can tell you it has value for people who have more money in the bank than most of any of us can imagine and have tons of material freedom. And it's this kind of exercise that's ended up having brought them back to Life for the next part of their. Their next chapters of their lives.

Yeah, I like that. So the other one, the other dare was, if money weren't an issue, what would you do? And so she said, I would buy 50. This is a different one. I would buy 50 to 100 acres of land and establish a small spiritually minded commune or intentional community living space. And so my question is, because let's say she's totally not even close to that yet. Right. What would be kind of something that. To help her almost absorb this now so when, once she's written it or said it out loud, it doesn't just go away, there's something more to it that happens with it.

Yeah. Well, it's funny you said that. The how. Once you have the feeling and you know your strengths, the hows become interesting. And the hows are. I mean, honestly, they're absolutely infinite. So to say, well, how could this happen? How might this happen? How. Great questions like how could you get that land and never have to buy it yourself? How could you be in that property and never have to actually own it? How can you be there in a way that seems so contradictory to what you are thinking is the only way to do it? So one of my clients who wanted to have a. Had an idea like that ended up, and I'm probably not going to say this right, but ended up buying this huge thing of land with this idea of selling the houses on the land that were just the house, just the footprint of the house. And so the love of architecture is what drove this. But wanting to have this in this land. So this giant land that everybody who owns a house there owns the land or gets to use the land, but just owns the house. The little. Just the imprint footprint of the house that. Just that little piece of land that the house is on. So that was a how that nobody had ever thought of before that became manifest. A couple of years ago, I had another client. She lives in the Pacific Northwest. She wanted to open a healing retreat and thought it doesn't seem possible and started asking the question how. And I haven't talked to her in a few months. I literally got a text from her. I should look on my phone right now to see. But it's within the last, probably the last eight weeks. She sent me a text and said, I can't believe I'm sending this to you. I found two partners. Her strengths are what they don't have, but they've got the money. And so they're buying some big piece of land in the Rockies and setting up the healing retreat. And so what I find interesting about this is people have very fixed ideas about how things should unravel or roll out. And the fixed idea of how something happens can really actually block all the possibilities and the creativity that's really out there, because there are a million ways for things, the way for things to happen, and we all know that, but somehow we think it happens to other people, not us. So just to be able to say, well, how do I think that would happen? Well, in a traditional role, I'd have to work, I'd have to get the money, I'd have to save it. I have to get a. Find the land, get a mortgage, whatever, or whatever. The standard, let's say acceptable standard for how something would happen. You get what I'm saying, right?

Oh, yeah.

Things only happen this way versus saying here's what I want to be or do or have. And how else could it happen other than the way that I know of? One of the clients I recently worked with, she takes girls on a trip, underprivileged girls, traveling, to show them what traveling can do for you. And she recently just said, no. I just decided to ask myself, how can I do this differently? And how have other people done similar things? And so she went on this massive research project and said, I cannot even believe how many different ways there are to do this that I never even knew of. So she's being reinvigorated because the way that she's been doing it just got stale. I suppose it just, it was more too cumbersome and wasn't scalable. And so now she's reinvigorated because now she's reconsidering that there are many ways to do it. So I would say, watch out for getting fixated on, oh, it can only happen in one way. Because then anybody would say, oh, I can't do it because I only know how to do it this way. And I just can't even imagine that. Just open the imagination and say, well, what other ways? How could I. I'm going to keep my eye out for how I can do this. I'm going to talk to other people about, hey, how did you do this? How did this come together?

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. The, the talking to other people also, because then you're, you're, you're verbalizing it with your, with your mouth, with your voice, which then adds another layer because you're saying it out loud and then you're getting another person to be able to add a layer to it, which then opens it up even more.

Right.

Let's say you have one piece of advice. They take away this from the podcast or something that maybe that you haven't mentioned yet on just being able to get to your truest. Let's see. Oh, to answer that question, what is all this about? To be able to get there. Do you have anything you want to add there?

God, I don't know. I. I'm tempted to just say be very beware of the word should if that comes up. That's. That's not an inspired states. That's a pressure filled state. So every time anyone hears himself or herself say, oh, I should, I'm gonna do this because I should. If there's any should energy around it, then I would say just crumple up that piece of paper and start over. Crumple up that idea and start over. The minute you say should have some suspicion that, oh, there's something lacking there. I'm gonna try again.

Yeah, I think it's great. I think also when other people are saying you should, that should be something you could also close out too. Cause, I mean, that happens a lot.

Yeah.

Because once other people get in your head, it's hard to. I mean, you want to, you want to talk. It's great to talk to people, but not get them to alter your decisions on how you're doing something.

Yeah, well, should is just a. Believe me, the, the word should is definitely connected to some pressure from an authority in life. And so just keeping that in mind is important. We all will use that word from time to time, but some people will use it a lot and not realize the hidden, deep and very true meaning. Which is that's the voice of authority. Let's just put it that way.

Yeah.

Authority.

Thank you so much for doing this with me. This was so much more than I even thought it would be. So I, Yeah, I just really appreciate you taking the time to do it and to be able to share your hugs with them.

Oh, you're welcome. Was kind of all over the place. But I. Every bit of that is. It is exciting information.

You know, I think I, I think when we listen back, we're. There's a through line throughout it. Right. Which is really answering that question, what is this all this about? And I think it shows that there's a level playing field for everyone. I think a lot of people think, oh, they have money, so of course they're so happy or they're this. Or whatever you get into when you see People that don't have what you want. So I think what this did and the through line throughout it really is we are all at this level playing field where we all have to do the work because we can all get to that same place.

Yeah. You know what I would call a podcast like that? I would call it a Calico Cat. You know, sometimes you have these conversations that are so generative and it's just you're talking about this and you're talking about that, you're talking about this and you're talking about that. It's just spots of different important genetic information, meaning like life, genesis, I think about those generative conversations I think are so great because they sprout many ideas. So the through line is not always completely obvious, but the outcome is that it's very generative. That makes sense.

Totally. Oh, and for the listeners, can you share where they can find out more about you?

Yeah, right now it is through my blog, done with anxiety blog.donewithanxiety.com hopefully soon there will be more.

Woohoo. All right, well, thank you so much for coming on.

You're welcome. I love it.

Thanks for listening to the do the Thing podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. But even more, we hope you'll be inspired to do the Thing. Do you have a burning question on Doing the Thing thing that you'd like answered? How about an inspiring do the Thing story of your own that you'd like to share? We'd love to hear all about it. Just leave us a voice message at do the Thing callcast co, or email us at hello do the Thing podcast dot com.