Episode 44 - She Believe Past Adversities Should Stop Anyone From Building The Resilience

I do really believe 100% from every part of me that everyone has the capacity to be able to do the things that they want and not to be held back by the mental baggage that's in our head that we want to push through.

Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. In each episode, we get down and personal with people who go after the things they want to make all their wildest dreams come true. Join us as we unveil and dissect a formula for what it takes to do the thing. Here is your host, Stacy Lauren.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. This is your host, Stacy Lauren. So this is so exciting because it's so fun when I have friends that I want to interview for the podcast, and sometimes it takes a while for me to be able to do it because we're hanging out so much, and it's sometimes hard to say, let's just do the podcast interview. And. But anyway, I have a good friend of mine on today, and I'm so excited to get you guys to hear her story. And. And then also I'm excited to dive in even more because what I've noticed, even though I'm close friends with people, when I get to interview them, it just kind of puts a different light into asking questions, so I get to know them even. Even better. But I have Debbie Mares here, and it's funny because she's probably one of the most humble people I've ever met in, um, because, like, every time we're together and we've known each other a couple of years now, it's like I learn new things about her every time, and she doesn't give it up willingly. She's an attorney. She's opened a nonprofit.

She had a TED Talk.

She's an author. I mean, there's so many things. I don't think I even named them all, but just like. But she doesn't even tell you them when you meet her. You have to, like. You have to, like, dig to get.

All of her cool stuff out.

And so I'm hoping you're gonna share it all, Debbie.

Oh, my gosh. Than. Thanks for having me on, Stacy. And thanks for that compliment. I think that quiet confidence is something I kind of strive for. I don't really try for, but. So thank you.

Yeah. And it's funny because I didn't mention this, but now I have to because it's just made me think of it is. I remember I was telling you about my ultimate do the thing would be as if I ever did, like, A comedy routine, because that's the thing I'm terrified about. And there's no way I would ever in my head be able to do it. So I was like, I remember telling, I was telling you, I was like, I have to do it because I'm terrified. And then when I told you, you created this like side group for like a comedy group and then you ended up performing.

Yeah, it's hard to, you know, not take things to. It's like go big or go home is one of my mottos. And I think that's where that kind of comes from.

Yeah, it's so cool. And then I still need to do it, I guess. But at least I motivated you.

Yes. You planted the seed for sure.

Planted the seed. That's exactly what it is. Well, cool. Well, let's dive in. I'd love to hear. I know I gave high level of your background, but I'd love to get a little bit more into it. If you can share with the listeners just your background and your story.

Sure, yeah. So by trade I'm a lawyer. I practiced criminal law as a prosecutor for 17 years and stepped away from that a couple years ago. I also love writing. I'm a legal thriller author and like writing kind of the stories that I've gone through, prosecuting cases in the justice system. And also kind of as a therapeutic model. I believe through expression and writing creativity, it really helps build resilience. So I have that aspect of my career I'm focusing on a little bit more right now. And then my nonprofit life was a good 10 year run of growing from the ground up an arts nonprofit.

Building a social emotional learning curriculum through the arts in order to help people become resilient, typically people that have been faced with adversity or trauma. So that's kind of another segment of my career. And I also teach, I've taught at college levels on human development. So I'm just fascinated at how we become the humans that we are today based on kind of all kinds of circumstances and things we've been through as well as things that have gone on in the world. So that's another segment of it that's kind of in a nutshell, what I've done over probably the last 20 years.

Yeah, isn't it funny? It's like you go through this huge thing in your life and then you're able to sum it up in just like a little nugget.

You know, a dose that people can kind of wrap their head around, I guess.

Yeah, no, you did great with that. So you mentioned resilience a few times. So how does that keep coming up for you?

Resilience was something we studied a lot during my work as a nonprofit. Because, you know, if you create a product or create something, you're trying to measure the level of success. So resilience for us was kind of this big broad thing of how can we help people get back up after adversity and continue on. Because sometimes through life there's something that could just take us out. Right? Take us out at the knees. And really the choice lies between moving forward and beyond that and not allowing your past to kind of identify your past. We would measure it. We created an instrument, a 32 question survey pre and post that we would do with our students through a 12 week program. And so the big focus was resilience. For me, that was personally important.

I grew up in a chaotic home and for me to get to the phase of going to college, law school, becoming a successful lawyer and that kind of thing, I've always been sort of fascinated at how is it that we can get over certain things and then get back on the right track and have second chances and go through life, just continue. Because there's stuff that sort of can hit us at different phases of our life and what controls things of, hey, I got back up really quick that time, but I struggled a long time that time. So what was missing in my kind of resilience recipe during different times of life? So I've just been, from a human development standpoint, personal challenges have just always been super fascinated by it.

Yeah. And what did you find? Did you, did you find the recipe?

Well, there's a lot in research, right. So there's different factors of resilience, one being hope and purpose. And Viktor Frankl in Man's Search for Meaning talks a lot about this in his book as those that lost hope in the concentration camps during the Holocaust. Or maybe they thought that the war was going to be over by a certain date, like they were clinging onto something. So once that date came and passed, or they didn't have a particular purpose in the camp, even suffering can be a purpose. Suffering, a relationship that you throw yourself into can be purpose. Suffering, something creative that you create. A lot of entrepreneurs that go out and do something, you have to have like hope and purpose. So that's one really big key factor. Another one is peer and family support. And we all know this, just having positive peers and you're some of the five people that you surround yourself with the most and you need that kind of family and peer support to get you through things. Another factor is self esteem, which was interesting to me because kind of as an awkward, you know, teen and all those things, you're trying to build self esteem and.

You can actually develop it like a muscle. So I learned that and how to be able to kind of throw yourself into building your self esteem. Another big factor that we infused into our program was empathy. Empathy could be taught, and a lot of people who grow up with adversity or have struggles.

Become a little bit selfish out of necessity because they're basically just trying to survive through life. And we can all relate to this during certain circumstances where you really can just focus in on yourself and protect yourself because of things that are happening. Empathy is another one that can be taught to kids, to people in general, that we can continuously build that muscle. Then the fifth one, which is one of my favorites, is expression. So communication and choosing your words impeccably, even to yourself, and also being able to advocate for yourself and express. And I do that typically through several cultural arts, whether it's dance, whether it's writing creatively, and also narrative therapy, journaling, just to be able to kind of express myself. So for me, that's, you know, those five factors are big. Each one deserves, you know, a talking topic of it in it of itself. But that's kind of the wheelhouse. And when you're struggling, you can't get through kind of that moment in life. It's good to reflect on those five categories of what buckets are kind of empty and needing some filling at this moment.

Yeah, I love that. And I love that you're using the do the thing verbiage with building muscles for these things, because I think a lot of people don't realize that you don't have to be born with something to develop the skill. And it's so important to look at it as a muscle because then you're able to be patient with yourself, to actually develop it over time.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah. So are you open to. You mentioned the chaotic home and growing up in that. Are you open to talking a little bit more about that? I'm trying to kind of see what the. Because, I mean, obviously there's so much that you've learned over the years, and so it's always fascinating to me to see how the things that we've grown up as, you know, grown up with are kind of translated into how we've been able to do the thing now.

Yeah, for sure. It was a big influence in my career path. As well as my own journey of resilience. But I basically grew up in an alcoholic home that was impacted by domestic violence. You know, my mother being the victim at the hands of my father. And I grew up with older sisters about three years older. And that went on until, you know, I later kind of questioned my mom later in life as adults, like, when did that all begin? Because typically when you grow up in that kind of home or other kind of adverse childhood experiences that people.

Are impacted by, there's pockets of memories. You know, stuff gets wiped out of your. Your memory, which is kind of typical. So you have little splatters of.

Lucidity kind of that you do recall and you do remember. That doesn't mean it didn't impact you quite the same. And so later I kind of asked my mom, and she's like, yeah, you know, that basically was going on.

Since the very beginning, which to me, I was able to kind of put the pieces together. Like this domestic violence chaos was going on probably long before I was born. And so with that.

You know, a lot of things get impacted. I never. I never really physically. I never actually saw.

My father abused my mom, but I was definitely in the house and knew it was going on and could hear things and had experiences which equally impacts, you know, even though I'm not the one that's actually getting hit.

Still impacts the brain. You know, it's. It's a. It's a common adverse childhood experience. And so many kids go through it. You know, 30 million kids a year impacted by domestic violence. One in three of us. And kids will grow up knowing somebody or that it has happened to you. So it's very common in our society. And a lot of people are impacted by.

Definitely begins to change the way that the brain develops and the prefrontal cortex ability to manage risk.

And that's where kind of these factors Right. Come in. So as a kid kind of losing that hope, you know, it's like I'm growing up in this certain circumstance. And I remember finding a lot of refuge in school. Like, I love school love. My teachers, felt safe in that environment, thrived in that environment, was teacher's pet. So I had that going for me. Looking back, I also had very other positive influences. My mom's friends.

Who were healthy adult mentors. My grandmother Nana, my Mexican American grandmother, who helped my mom raise us as well, taking us to, you know, museums, cultural arts. My mom did a wonderful, wonderful job of managing kind of this situation. She had us in ballet folklorico, Mexican dancing.

My father Too. I mean, despite what was going on and learning later in life, kind of what he was subjected to as a kid, you know, like in Dave Pelzer, he has a book called A Child Called it, which is he was at the hands of his mother, one of the most horrific cases in California of abuse. And he has this quote, hurt people hurt. And there came a point in my life where, again, trying to understand, like, why do people get into situations that they're in or cause, you know, these situations? And learning about my dad's kind of childhood and growing up learning about why did my mom pick my dad? You know, oh, that was because, you know, she grew up in a very strict Mexican family. And the only way out her mother told her from living at home was like in a coffin or getting married. So she got married really young. And to someone, it was like, it was a way out. It was escape. So there came a point I began just understanding my family history and putting the pieces together and then really coming to understand, okay, how does somebody get back on track after all the dust settles? I remember, you know, my dad walking out the door of our house when I was about in sixth grade, around 12 years old, never to return again. And it was kind of like this big relief. I remember like, oh, my gosh, thank goodness it's over. But in reality, the journey had just begun because now it came to, okay, you know, mom is kind of raising us on her own. I'm now exploring things like alcohol and boys and all kinds, you know. And so kind of like the journey, the road began at a young age. It wasn't like it was. It was over. And, you know, I'm safe now. So just a lot of self reflection over the years.

In combination of my work in the criminal justice system. Right. Because.

People that are impacted by the same types of adversities that I'm impacted by are.

More likely to commit crimes, more likely to have health consequences. And Nadine Burke Harris, who is a doctor and public health expert, has a great TED Talk on this. It breaks down the adverse childhood experiences that the more that you're faced with, like a divorced parents, you know, growing up with alcoholism, growing up with, like, all those factors. There's tons of research, you know, that Kaiser did back in the 70s on adverse childhood experiences that kind of lay out all the odds that are kind of against you. But it's an opportunity to learn what those things are and then put protective factors or buffers like friends and hope and purpose and all these other things in place so that you can overcome it.

Yeah. That's amazing. Also that you were really. The way that you almost found your way to healing was really getting yourself into the lens that they had at the time through their eyes and what their experience was. So then you were able to like, come to terms with what. With what that experience was like for you.

Yeah, it was amazing. You know, I worked for a bit in the parole hearings unit. And so for about a year I would travel to all the different prisons around California. And when somebody is getting a release date, potential release date, you know, for serving life sentences, and a doctor goes in and basically does a pretty lengthy, you know, 30, 40 page forensic report on whether this person is a risk to our society. And they go back way far, you know, back to your childhood. And a lot of these crimes and murders, I found, were so connected to these things that activate us or trigger us from these essentially childhood traumas. And I found that really fascinating. And also the inmates that were going through the parole hearings also had to come up with a relapse prevention plan. And how did we know or how were they guaranteeing to society that they have all these factors in place that were going to prevent them from committing some of the most heinous crimes again? And the doctors would kind of do a risk analysis of what was the likelihood of violence if they're kind of reintegrated back into our society. So I had just an up close, you know, personal.

Seat as a student, even learning from those that had been impacted by incarceration and that were re, you know, had a way to re. Enter society, what the hard work they had done to go deep within themselves to understand their patterns of behavior and how were they going to prevent it. And so I was doing that work, but I would always learn things from them. And then I created a curriculum based on that information that I had, as well as working in the criminal justice system, my own personal experiences, and created like a social, emotional learning curriculum around that to help students, you know, who potentially could be on that same path as those inmates, and really help them dive into factors of resilience and how do they stay on the right path as opposed to becoming incarcerated, which is typically called the school to prison pipeline.

So that became kind of my passion work over the last 15 years. Yes.

So what do you think is the big thing that is the difference between you, right. Having grown up similarly to, like you said, the people that are more likely to commit crimes have had that adverse childhood experience. So is it that resilient piece and then self Reflection, as you mentioned, or is there anything else that has been a big distinction that you've discovered between the two?

Yeah, I mean, there's like, systems theories that kind of discuss this in more depth. Like Broffen Brenner's ecological systems theory really takes a look at.

First of all, it's time because. And we can all relate to this. Like, there's been times, let's say you go through some sort of issue as a teenager and you're able to get out of it a little bit better. Maybe it's a bullying incident that happens, you're able to kind of bounce back a little bit more. Maybe you've got a mentor or a family member or somebody like I got. I'll give you an example. I got kicked out of school as a high school student, senior. And that could have been a really dark road. Right. I had been on the school to prison pipeline with that factor alone, combined with all of my other adverse childhood experiences that I had grown up with. But I had an older sister who was very.

She was a mentor to me, and she was kind of like pulled me out of that, coached me out of that, you know, convinced my mom to let me go to another school that had all of my best friends, old childhood best friends, and other protective factors at. And she kind of coached me through that. Had she not been there at that time, you know, it could have gone dark fast forward. And, you know, let's say now I'm in my 30s, going through a divorce. And if you, you know, I'm the same person, right? I have the same childhood experiences, I have the same opportunities, but fast forward, you know, I was kind of in a slump. You know, maybe I wasn't willing to reach out to people not getting therapy at that time, you know, and so there was a lot of sort of, you know, I was also going through a lot of stress at work with ptsd, getting death threats. And at that time and space in my 30s, the situation was very different. Even though those two experiences could be equally traumatic. And so it depends what factors of those five factors are surrounded. It also depends on kind of what the timing is. So I like to talk about it in time.

Of it could be. It could look completely different.

But I still go back to the resilience factors of how does somebody pull themselves out? And even looking at the work of people who are impacted by incarceration and that are exiting prison, the parole board is really good about looking at similar factors. They don't quite term them the same way that I did, but that, you know, that returning citizen has to be an AA for their sobriety. They have to have somebody that has a job lined up for them. They have to make sure that Sister so and so Nun so and so is willing to take them in to her rehabilitation home. They have to make sure that they have family or friends that are going to be there. And all these are provided like in letters. So a lot of that same resiliency.

Recipe is there. And we make sure because we know and you know, research and evidence has kind of showed that those factors are in place.

Yeah. And I love that this came up, Debbie, because I think part of doing the thing is being able to take ownership for the things that you can control, you know, and I think that's a. You just gave such an amazing way for people to really take control of things that have happened so then they can move forward. And whether that's going through that self reflection and maybe not doing the thing yet until you're in alignment, you know, or having worked through it and then being able to do the thing, then I think it's such an important. It's such an important piece because it's so easy for someone to say, oh, I can't do this because of this reason. But seeing that you actually can, you just need to have the right tools to be able to move forward. To me is. It's unbelievable.

Yeah, no, exactly. There's something, and I like that you mentioned that it reminds me of the Serenity Prayer, that a lot of it's touted in AA or Al Anon. Al Anon is the program, you know, if you're impacted by people with substance abuse issues, kind of family members and stuff. It's more of a program for family members and friends. But, you know, the Serenity Prayer is huge. And it's this idea that kind of the. Grant me the wisdom to understand the difference between the things that I can control and. And that I cannot control and focus all your efforts on the things that you can control. And it also reminds me of something that is called the WRAP Plan. It's the Wellness Recovery Action Plan. Because a lot of times, like when we're in this slump, the way that you're in Fight, Flight, Freeze, or the other F word mode where your brain is so flooded with cortisol that you really can't think about what's missing from my life right now, what do I need to do? What do I need to grab onto? And. And the purpose of the wrap plan, it's like a template. It's like a 40 page template is that you've taken some time to really think through what are my triggers? You know, where do I go? What do I do during these moments? You know, do I need to meditate? Do I need to take that walk, Do I need to seek out counseling? That it's actually in a written format that you can go to? Because it's really difficult to kind of think about those things when you're. When you're in a slump.

Oh, yeah. It's like impossible because your brain is like going through this whole crisis standpoint and then it's figuring out how to pause for a minute so then you can actually move forward.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah, that's so. It's so good. I'm so glad we went there. That's kind of been my biggest thing with this podcast. When I originally started, I was like, do the thing. You know, like, I want people to do the thing. And then as it was kind of going, as I was going through and doing these interviews, I was realizing, like, I don't want people to do the thing out of like a numbing. You know, I wanted it to come from. From them really wanting to do it or doing the thing out of, you know, people almost like peer pressure, like, oh, everyone else is doing this. I want to do it too. I wanted it to come from your own personal alignment. So I think that was a really good way that you were able to explain how that, how that can help.

Yeah. Although I would. I don't know if you agree with this, but sometimes doing the thing helps give us, like, a sense of hope and purpose and. And if it's the only thing that's driving you in that moment, I believe there's a huge benefit to it to pull you out of that slump and it could become something amazing as well. So sometimes we do need that thing, whatever it is. And I think people that are faced with adversity or mental health struggles might be able to relate to this of just grab onto that thing and continue doing it. Because sometimes it's like this downward spiral where that may be the answer in that moment to pull yourself out.

Yeah, I love that you said that. I think that is true. I think that's definitely something that can sometimes keep you going and moving forward and then just kind of going that one step and then going to the next step and then seeing what feels right and through each process.

Yeah, no, exactly.

So give us an idea of like, because you've had all these things that you did, like between law and Then writing the books and the nonprofit. Were those all at the same time, or did you sort of take breaks in between each thing?

Short answers? They were all at the same time, and they contributed to a lot of burnout.

But also they serve one another. They're very closely aligned. For instance, I wrote a legal thriller called the Momacy to Murders back in. Published it, like, in 2012. And it was a big source of therapeutic writing for me because I was doing a lot of those parole hearings I was telling you about, and the stuff is really gory. I was. You know, I had just came off a big assignment in the homicide gang unit, and that stuff kind of sticks with you, you know, in your head, your body really remembers it. And so to get it out of my head, it was to put it, you know, pen to paper and write about it and create some characters around as a fiction, legal thriller, but in courtroom drama. But to. It really assisted me in my work. I almost needed to write to survive in that moment. So they were all done at the same time, but they all were very useful. Also. Kind of around that same time, I was getting very frustrated with the criminal justice system. You know, I was seeing these young kids that were impacted by gangs, both getting shot and killed, as well as joining the gangs. And we would do these big trials, and I would get these big awards. But it came to a certain point where I was beginning to understand it's really difficult to transform the criminal justice system. And with me in the courtroom, trying one case after another.

And seeing, you know, these kids go away for life without possibility of a chance for parole because of the way our laws are situated, and they're pretty much kids, you know, committing crimes against kids. It was very. It wasn't the reason I got into becoming a prosecutor, and I wanted to do something that would be more impactful and contribute more to society. And so the nonprofit was born out of that period of my life of really being able to help kids stay on the right track and not be captured by this big school to prison pipeline where they're going to be in prison, you know, in five years if we didn't do anything. So they all fell into place at the times that they needed to. But it would have been nice to sort of focus on one. One of those things. And the teaching also kind of came in, I want to say, around 2017, where that gave. I had been doing all this work and seeing all these things out in the field through my casework and all that kind of stuff, but teaching, it actually gave A framework for words, theories that were in place that I had already seen and experienced out in the field. So that was an added layer of, yes, it was all done at the same time, but it really helped me understand the research behind human development. And it just added another layer of expertise to my work that I was doing and credibility to kind of overcome things like imposter syndrome. Because I was creating a curriculum that was going into schools, juvenile halls, and prisons ultimately. And I didn't really feel like I had the credentials to be a teacher or curriculum creator for these important things. And so that actually helped. So it all sort of fell into place. I think in hindsight, I would have probably done things a little bit slower and taken more time to create protective buffers, because ultimately, you know, with vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue and burnout from doing all of this really heavy stuff in different categories, you know, it all kind of took a toll on me.

You know, where I had to kind of take a hard break probably like a couple years ago. So, I don't know. Part of me wouldn't do anything different, but another part of me would have.

Yeah, it's. It's. There's so many things that by just following your purpose, you've been able to do. And it sounds like they just compounded each other by being able to. To do them all really well, because each thing led to the other thing. And then it's. Then you're like, okay, now.

Now I gotta take a little break.

From this and then decide what my next thing is.

Yeah. And I think it's an art to be able to know when to stop the thing, you know, Because I think our human nature is to just keep breathing life into it. Because every time you do the thing, it's almost like, I don't have kids, but I would imagine it's like. It's like, you know, you don't want to give up on it. It's your baby. It's your creation to the world. And I think it's our human nature to see it thrive. Really good entrepreneurs or people that like to start businesses can stop the thing when it makes sense. You know, typically that's with numbers or financials, that kind of thing. But in social work, it becomes really hard because you're not necessarily. It's not like you're measuring it in terms of financials. I mean, you can for the nonprofit world and actual business entities. But when you're doing criminal justice work or mentoring or teaching or these kinds of things, you know, it's really Difficult to know. But it's as important to know when to kind of stop the thing, maybe move on to something else or be more strategic about what are we trying to accomplish here and how am I serving my passion? Like what vehicle am I using in this moment to really get to where I want to get to? So being a little bit clear with the thing, I think is helpful to avoid things like burnout.

Yeah, and I like those questions just even for what we were talking about earlier, where sometimes helping doing the thing can give you sense of purpose by grabbing onto it. And I think by then asking those questions while you're in the middle of it, it's good because then you'll be able to see if you're on the right track or not.

Exactly. Exactly. It reminds me like I have a trainer now and I asked him, I said, can I have like a little square of that dark chocolate from Trader Joe's? I just love it. He's like, well, it depends what you're using it for. You know, is it like you need a pick me up, you know, in the afternoon? Or are you. Is it in lieu of something like, you know, instead of having a glass of wine or something else that's going to be worse for you, you know. And so I think it's, it's kind of that idea of like, what is it we're trying to do here and what's the purpose of it? To really stop and ask those questions along the way, I think are important when you're doing the thing.

Yeah, Yeah, I love that. So what do you think has been the hardest thing for you?

I mean, it goes along those same lines as balance and self care. Because when you're doing the thing, it's a marathon, typically, it's not a race. And so it's really being able to. Balance and being able to, you know, and I always go back, I just recently lost my mom and watched her on her deathbed and was there with her till the very her last breath. And so it's this reminder of, you know, people that are, are on their deathbeds are not talking about all the things that they did, but they're talking about the things, you know, that had to do with people that they loved and spending time with the people that they loved and not having regrets and living the life true to themselves.

And so it's constantly reminding myself of, okay, I'm choosing this thing to do, whatever it is, start this business, get on this health challenge, write this book. But is it something I'm going to be talking about and proud of myself at the end of life. And so I've kind of restructured things where if it's not part of that, then it's coming off the vision board or it's coming off the bucket list. And so that's the thing that was the hardest. I think if I had this perspective, you know, over the last 10 years, I would have done things a little bit differently and not taken things so serious or had a little bit more fun doing things.

And chosen different paths. You know, maybe cut the thing. Whether that was practicing law or other things, cut it off a little bit sooner, because those are things that I wouldn't have been talking about, you know, on my deathbed. So I would say balance would be kind of the biggest struggle that I used to have. Not so much anymore. I used to say yes to everything, you know, is that person that was on every single board, you know, board of directors, and said yes to everything that was assigned to me. And I went through a phase of the last couple of years of forcing myself to say no to things, and that was really challenging. But it gives yourself that white space to really focus on what's next for me.

Yeah, I love that. Being able to pause and really ask yourself those questions. Are you open to talking about.

What you're working on now?

Yeah, what I'm working on and kind of ideas.

So my first legal thriller, the Mamacy to Murders. I've always.

I've always just loved kind of the messaging in it. I think it's still really relevant with all the criminal justice reform and going on now. And so I've always, you know, because when my mom was passing, I was kind of thinking, like, what are the things that matter? And one thing I always thought was like, breathing life back into that novel, turning it into, like, a television series or feature film, and continuing on with the writing of that, because it was designed as a series with those characters. And so I really want to. What I have been doing is pouring myself back into my writing and working on.

Working on a nonfiction, as well as my first four years working as a prosecutor, because it's things that I wish, you know, had I had a mentor, they would have. And I had a lot of mentors along the way. You know, I became a successful trial lawyer and won awards around it because of, you know, on the backs of other people who had done it before that just were very good at mentoring when it came to trials and skills. But one thing I think lacked was finding this balance. Right? And a lot of lawyers and other professionals go through this burnout. I think a lot of people saw it during COVID Covid became, you know, this kind of really big time where people could reflect of what is it that I'm doing or what is it that I want to do, and why am I, you know, grinding every day like this? And so I wish I had kind of, looking back, had a mentor that was very vulnerable and realistic and broke it down, you know, felt like there was a lifespan in what I was doing, because the work is really heavy and you're dealing with social issues and some of the worst social issues that are out there, and it becomes your world as a prosecutor. And so I would have really.

Benefited from having a bit more balance. So in order to kind of make impact and maybe have students be able to read it in law school, or people that want to become, you know, trial lawyers or prosecutors have access to just like a book. So that's kind of my focus right now. I also foresee it potentially kind of turning into a foundation as well. I think there's a lot of work that could be done with vicarious trauma in our criminal justice system, just because I've seen it a lot amongst my peers. So potentially some sort of foundation or access to mental health for professionals who are impacted by vicarious trauma daily, so that we can kind of lift them up and.

Surround them with protective factors that I talked about earlier and take the stigma out of it. Because a lot of times, you know, we're big trial dogs and we don't talk about this and we kind of go through our way. But it does take a toll. There's a reason the lifespan of a Prosecutor is statistically 10 years less than the average person because of these great pockets of stress that are impacting our lives. And we're taking on kind of the stresses that have happened to families and victims and next of kin. So that's kind of my passion work right now. I'm going with it. Like I said, I'm constantly reevaluating it. Is this where I want to throw my work? And it's also, you know, with criminal justice reform and taking sort of any impact projects and using kind of media as a way to bring attention and awareness to some of the changes that, you know, a lot of people want to see in the criminal justice system. So that's just one of them.

Yeah, it sounds. It sounds like it's going to be able to help a lot of people if that's a direction you end up going.

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping for.

Okay, Debbie, so the time is here. You have one piece of advice for the listeners on doing the thing. What would it be?

It's got to be stay balanced. Doing the thing is a marathon, not a race. And so really take the time and calendar out your self care and your wellness and prioritize that. You know, it's this idea of you're on a plane and the oxygen masks fall, you've got a kid next to you, you know, put yours on first so that you could be in a position to help others and put the mask on others around you, but obviously take care of yourself first. I read a quote where it's better to burn out than fade away. And there's a truth to that, you know, because I think if you're, if you do completely burn out and fade away from the work that you truly were called to do, that was your thing, you know, that doesn't really serve society. So even though you know you may burn out, it's, you know, you have to constantly practice that self care so you can get back on track and maybe carry out your passion in a different, more strategic way, but not to lose it.

I am so glad you said that. I actually don't know if anyone's said that before yet. And I think that's so important and so key. And really the message that I'm really wanting to do with this podcast is being able to help people have that full, full balance while doing the thing.

Yeah, it'll be a rocky road, you know, and I'm not convinced that you can have it all, but I think you could certainly try.

I love it. Oh, by the way, Debbie, can you share where people can learn more about you or follow along?

Yeah, exactly. The organization I talked about where we do social emotional learning curriculum. It's called theriteofyourlife.org, w R I T e of your life.

And then also I'm on Instagram under Deborah Mares D E B R A M A R E S. So those would be the two places to find me. My book also on Amazon, available.

Through Kindle or you know, the good old fashioned written copy of the Mamacita murders. Buy the book.

All right, thanks so much.

All right, thanks, Stacey.

Thanks for listening to the do the thing podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show, but even more, we hope you'll be inspired to do the thing. Do you have a burning question on doing the thing that you'd like answered? How about an inspiring do the thing story of your own that you'd like to share. We'd love to hear all about it. Just leave us a voice message at dothething callcast or email us at hello. Do the thingpodcast.com.