Episode 66 - Cathryn Lavery From A Closet Design To Launching A Personal Development Company

I do really believe 100% from every part of me that everyone has the capacity to be able to do the things that they want and not to be held back by the mental baggage that's in our head that we want to push through.

Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. In each episode, we get down and personal with people who go after the things they want to make all their wildest dreams come true. Join us as we unveil and dissect a formula for what it takes to do the thing. Here is your host, Stacy Lauren.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. This is your host, Stacy Lauren.

So.

All right, guys, this is an incredible day. I am so excited. I love getting a chance to talk to people that I haven't actually been able to have the opportunity to talk to you yet. And my next guest is someone that I actually heard on a podcast interview.

You.

Gosh, I think it's been like a year and a half or something when she did an interview with Ryan Moran on her company, the Best Self Company. And I remember listening to the interview and being really excited about just all the things she's doing from the company that she created and also dabbling in crypto, which I'm also into, and just a lot of different things that I just felt really immediately connected and then immediately ordered her dating cards on her site. And it was funny because a lot of times I order things like that and sometimes they end up in a, in a corner somewhere because it's like, it looks good, kind of like the next new journal. I'll look at it and I'll be like, that looks great. And then I don't end up using it. But luckily my boyfriend was over when the package came and he opened them up and we immediately took them out and, and took one of the cards out. And it just like, was amazing because we had only been together six months and the cards we'll talk about a little bit more once we get into the episode. But the cards basically have different categories for like, you know, easy, medium, difficult, based on the kind of conversations you have. And I can tell you 100 certainty that this was such a huge thing for my relationship because we've been together now a year and a half and we're able to have deeper conversations because of these cards. And that's what I love so much about them. And then Catherine came up again when I'm now, as you guys know, I'm running the do the Thing Dating dare challenge. We just had a really successful 17 day challenge and I gave some of the cards away. You guys were so excited about that. And I'm gearing up to do another one in October, and I was like, I've got to have her on and talk more about this company and how she started it and all the things she's doing now, so. Hey, Katherine.

Hey. It's so good to be here.

I am just so excited to get a chance to talk to you.

Yeah, it's not often I hear someone that's into both dating things and personal development and then crypto at the same time.

I know, right?

Yeah.

I can't. I want to get into your story, of course, but one thing I just had to comment is it's got to be so amazing just to know that, like, something you've created can have this endless ripple, you know, with people in their lives. And it's just like. It's crazy to me when I think about just how much. How effective those cards have been for me. And then people I've recommended them to, what they've told me, and I can't even imagine what that feels like.

Yeah, I think it's. Honestly, even when we actually, in our Slack channel, have the, like, success stories where we hear from customers and our customer support, people are always posting stuff in there. Whenever I'm having a day or like, you know, a supply chain issue or there's just something going on, I'll go to that Slack channel. I'll be like, okay, like, this is all worth it because these are the. This is the impact they were having. But it's funny how, you know, the deck cards, like the intimacy deck and the dating deck and relationship, how big of an impact they've had on people. Because it's a pretty simple idea, but I think.

It'S better than, like, an app that you download. It's something that you can physically have in your space that can open up a whole conversation that you didn't know, even know that you were going to have. And it can lead you down paths that you haven't talked about before. And I've heard from people who've been married, like, 30 years, and, you know, you kind of get into not. Not a rut, but, like, the same conversation. You kind of just have patterns in how you talk. And so what these cards do is they give you permission and ideas of other things you can talk about that allow you to be vulnerable, but not in a way that the other person is asking you the question. You can just blame the cards. So it's like, oh, this is this is kind of weird, but, I mean, it's not like the other person is asking you that. It's the card, and you can blame it. And so there's. There's a sort of ability to be more vulnerable when you're not asking those questions in the back of your head. Like, wait, why they asked me that was. What does it mean? Like, it just takes away all of that from. From the table.

Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that I love so much about them. And it's funny you mentioned the people together 20, 30 years, because I've actually. I had mentioned it to few people that I know, just for me being excited about the cards. And I had no idea that they would be interested in them, too, because they were married so long, and after they got them, they were telling me how, like, they raised their kids. Right. And, like, you are in the middle of raising these kids, and then they become adults, and then you are almost, like, getting to know each other again. And so, yeah, so I totally get that, because the people that I know that I referred them to love them for that reason because they almost, like, got to know each other again through your cards.

That's awesome. I love hearing that.

Yeah. I mean, you have so much going on when I. When I. I got. It's kind of cool. I love it when I get to talk to the team, you know, too, and, like, scheduling the interview and things, so I can see how much you've got going on in the back end. Do you mind just sharing your story and a little bit about you?

Oh, yeah, for sure. So I'm actually. You'll probably, in the interview, hear me say words a little differently, and you'll be like, wait, what's going on? And it's because I actually grew up in Belfast, Northern Ireland, which I was there a few weeks ago. So whenever I go home, my accent comes back a little bit more than it was before or when I talked to my family. But I moved in 2012 to New York, and I was an architect, so my goal was to always live in New York. I studied architecture, came over and, you know, I'm kind of working at. You think architects make a lot of money? It's not actually true, especially when you're coming in from overseas. So I started as an architect, making 30,000 a year in New York. So basically was not, you know, living check to check. And on the side of that job, I actually was kind of entrepreneurial when I was younger. But I didn't know you could have that As a job. So my parents have normal jobs. Everyone I knew just worked somewhere. And so there was no option of, like, starting your own business, nor did I know that you could do that. Like, I had an ebay business when I was 13, but, like, then I was like, oh, let me get serious about school. And so I, you know, went and did architecture. So when I moved to New York and I was kind of, you know, I think at one point I was designing this closet for someone, and it was for this Insean apartment. It was in Central Park West. They were spending, like, millions on this upgrade, and they are spending $60,000 on this closet, on this wooden closet. And I was just like, oh, my God, they're spending double what I make in a year on this closet. And I don't want a $60,000 closet. But I, I, I was like, if I stay here, like, there's only so much that can happen. I'm also like, believe in, like, looking to, okay, what's the best that could happen? So if you're looking forward and seeing, like, what are your bosses lifestyles look like? And so my bosses were a married couple. They had four kids. I really respected them as entrepreneurs, but they lived and worked all the time. Like, even when they're on vacation, and they worked all the time. So I'm thinking, like, if that's the goal, that seems like a lot. And so anyway, I started a shopify store on the side, just selling, like, design things that I made and posters. Didn't know anything about marketing, but I would just post them on Tumblr. And so that sort of started making some money. And eventually, like, 18 months later, I was making much more of that than my job. So while I was waiting for my green card to come through, I was like, okay, once that's through, I will quit and do this full time until I figure out the next thing so that I kind of tell people is like, my freedom vehicle. And usually, like, when people want to give up their jobs or start something that by themselves, sometimes it's like, a lot of pressure because it's like, what if I don't want to do this for us, my life? So I like in this business to like, a freedom vehicle to get me out of the job. And usually when people are thinking, okay, I want to start something new, they think, oh, I have to do this the rest of my life. I have to know what I'm doing. However, all you really have to do is figure out how to pay your bills, and then later you can, like, start A passion project. You can do something you really want to do. But for now, I like all you want to do is find something that can cover your monthly burn. And that's what I considered this as. And then in the meantime, I got more into personal development and was reading a ton of books which I did not grow up with. I did not know anything about habits or things that I should be doing to set me up for success at all. And as I'm like doing it, things are going better, the business is doing better. I'm like, wait, why didn't I learn this growing up? Like, why do I still know Pythagoras theorem, but I don't know about all these small little compound effects you can put in your life. And so that was sort of the beginning of where Best Self came from, was me creating frameworks for myself to understand how to do things better or faster or more productive in order to do better in life. And the first product was the Self Journal which we launched on Kickstarter. That was a 13 week goal framework. So you figure out what your goal is, we show you how to break it down and then every single day you sort of write down what you're going to do, you do it, you do the thing and then you reflect at the end of the day. And it's basically taking a lot of success principles that I'd been experimenting with and worked well and putting them into a journal format so that you didn't really have to recreate the wheel. You would just know that you were doing the things you were supposed to do. And that sort of started Best Self and it was very much like type A productivity. Hit your goals. Because at the time that was, you know, all I knew. And sort of as we're younger we think of people ask us, like, what are you going to do when you grow up? So like our view of success is often like what it is that we're doing or what it is we're working at, at not everything else. And that's kind of the first chapter of Best Self, which is very much, you know, wasn't about relationships. It was really about how do I get the most work done in the smallest amount of time to make the biggest impact in my life. And then the next chapter was sort of where you kind of find out products which was, okay, wait, there's actually more to life than productivity. And that came from a personal, like I went through a divorce, I realized like, wait, and hitting all these external goals, but like, it's not very fulfilling if I'm sort of not fulfilled in other areas of my life. And so that begin began a new quest for best self of, like, okay, how do we create tools not just for, like, people in business and work, but also in their relationships and their communities so that they're feeling fulfilled outside of that, which is, you know, your best self could have nothing to do with business or work. It could be like putting all your time into your kids and your. And your partner, and that's totally fine, but we didn't have anything related to that, and so that's kind of where we went next.

Yeah, that's. That's unbelievable. So I love the fact that, like, you already kind of had this, like, entrepreneur spirit, even going back to 13 with this eBay store. And then when you ended up learning more about personal development, you realize after going through the architect job and realizing, you know, probably having this dream for a while, but just realizing you weren't even barely able to get by, and then discovering these principles of success of just, like, even just habits and things like that, and then you seeing what a gap there was for people, and now your company is basically helping people fill that gap so then they don't have to kind of go through that same learning.

Learning hardship, you know, that you do.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's kind of been the journey. And it's. You know, I recently was thinking about the idea of, like, thinking of life like a video game. And so you're just really, like, building your character, like.

Through your community that you build the skills you build. And so when you're, you know, reading books and you're taking courses and you're, you know, doing the thing that you're not good at yet and then getting better, you're really just enhancing your character so that you're ready for the next level. And I've only recently put that together, but that's how I sort of believe that you'll be successful. If you look at life kind of like the idea of a video game that you're constantly improving.

Oh, my gosh, can you please write a book for teenagers and have that be the book?

Well, it's funny because I was like, would not make school so much fun. More fun if you were thinking of it not as, you know, oh, what is this for? But like, as a video game where, like, okay, I just learned how to speak a new language. Now I've unlocked this whole territory of the world, and now I can go to.

And it would have for me, like, subconsciously, that's what I'VE been thinking, but recently I was just like, writing this idea down. I'm like, oh, that's like, if we think of life like a video game where we're taking action all the time, instead of like a movie where we're just consuming it and watching it and, like, not taking action, then, like, literally, I feel like that's the cheat code to get ahead. Yeah.

There's a lot in there that's like, that's exciting. I'm really interested to hear how you're going to explore that. And, you know, that. That sounds like in there. That just really speaking to me right now.

Yeah. So, I mean, that's kind of where we started and where we are now and.

Each, you know, new thing. And I think one of the, you know, as we. You get better at something or you go through business, you've probably had this where, like, sometimes it feels like whack a mole, where you're just constantly dealing with issues all the time. And I used to be. I used to think like, oh, when will this get easier? Like, when, when, when's this gonna be done? When am I gonna solve the problems and just be able to coast? And back to that video game analogy is like, when does the game get easier? The better that you get. It doesn't. You just have to get better. So, yeah, stuff that was once hard is now easy. And so now I think of, like, when I've gone through stuff in the business. Now I'm like, oh, what did I learn from that? And. And now you're. You're like, you've solved that problem and you probably hopefully will not go through the same thing again because you learn from it. Yeah.

You're basically just giving, like, you're, you're reframing it in a context that makes it fun instead of like, oh, my God, you know, this just happened again. But if you view it as a video game, you've just totally transformed that context to mean something, like, totally different. That is, like, really amazing.

Yeah. So.

I'm excited about that right now. I don't know where that's going to go, but it's just an idea I have. Yeah.

Well, you know what's cool and what I've noticed, and that's why I like doing these interviews, is sometimes when you, when you have the idea and it's in your head and then you speak to it and you talk a little bit more about it, then all of a sudden, like, tomorrow you'll wake up. Right. I don't know if you've Noticed in your life, you might be like, oh, and now this. And it's sort of like, just leads with this one idea, but then saying it out loud. I've noticed that's a big. A big difference, you know, to be able to, like, get it out of your head.

Oh, for sure. I think it's. You're giving your subconscious something to work on, probably when you, like, say it out loud and.

Yeah, yeah. So I actually. Let's just explore this for a minute because, like, this is kind of how things start, right? Like, I'm just imagining I'm interviewing you in five years, and there's this, like, crazy thing that you've done with this idea, you know, like, what would be your next step? Let's say tomorrow you woke up and you had, like, another. Another idea related to this. This, like, life is a video game concept. What would be your next step from there? And you're like, oh, let me work on this more, and I'm totally putting you on the spot. But I'm just curious, because this is part of doing the thing, right? It's like planting kind of like the dating challenge. When I did that, it just came. I've had Covid, and I never watched tv, but I'm watching tv, the show. There's this show where they're showing this truth or dare game. And I was like, oh, my God, if people can get out of their comfort zone and I could give them dares, they'll actually go, well. And then. And then I posted it in, like, this peloton group that I'm in, and 100 people responded, you know, saying, yeah, I'm in. Then I did a quick survey, 63 responded to the survey, and then, boom, there goes. So it's like one thing moves to another thing, you know? And I think, like, a lot of people don't realize, like, it's so. It's like. It's just, like, not. Sometimes you don't need to know what your end goal is. You just need to know what the next step is, you know?

Yeah. And I think for me, it's. I like the idea of, like, gamifying personal development in some way.

Or just a way of having people see how far they've come. Because a lot of times, you know, when we're on a journey of, like, personal development or entrepreneurship, we are usually looking ahead and not like. And we always see people ahead of us, and we never look back and see, okay, how far have we come? And so I think the idea of some way to track you Know the books you've read, the courses you've done in a way that's not, you know, this cliche like, oh, I've done this many courses, I'm better. But more of a. For you personally, like, here are all the skill sets that I've honed in the last three years that. And now I'm almost a completely different person. And these, you know, I'm actually understanding the doors that they opened because, you know, when I was first getting started and I had this design sort, I didn't know what was going to lead to what. I was just kind of figuring stuff out as I went. But then if you look back to the stuff that I learned in random contexts and how. How I was able to apply that to future things, but I didn't know at the time how I was going to do it, it's kind of amazing because you just. It's like the whole Steve Jobs thing where you can't connect the dots looking forward. You have to look back and be like, oh, that's how everything was connected. Like, I think it's important for people to understand that looking back and then also enjoying the process of it. So, like, I love learning and, like, if you love the idea of getting better, not. Not the outcome of, like, this is where I'm going to get. If, like, you like reading, you like learning things, then you're going to be totally fine. Because if you enjoy it, you don't know what the outcome will be. But you know that you're constantly getting better one thing at a time.

Yeah. And the thing that's coming to my mind as you're saying that, it's like, you know, that. That's that saying we're like 10,000 hours at something, and then you become an expert at it. And I think a lot of things, people don't see the progress they've made. They're waiting to be the expert, but they're still like, if they looked at themselves from a year before, they've made such huge progress, you know, and so by gamifying it or having something, at least in that context, whether it's something or not, if it's just something imaginary that you think of or something actually physical, digital, whatever, and then being able to see your progress, I just feel like that would be, like, really cool. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it's easy to beat our head against the wall when we haven't learned the thing yet. But, you know, sometimes it's just getting better at it. Is what. Is what the. What the growth is for us, you know?

Yeah. And it's kind of like, I mean, you're. You have a peloton. It's the idea of, like, how do you beat your last best score? Not. You don't really. It doesn't matter about anyone else on the leaderboard. It's like, no, my only competitor is, like, myself from yesterday or two weeks ago to get better. And so if you're not, you know, because comparison is.

Not helpful usually for getting better at something. But if we're literally only trying to be our previous self, that's a much healthier and.

Productive way to look at it.

Yeah. Well, I'm excited to see what comes from that, for sure. I'm like, I'm. I'm really excited. So I wanted to go back to, like, when you're 13 and you opened up the ebay store. I'm just kind of curious how did that. Without having anyone around you that was like, owned a business or anything? Like, how did you end up doing that or even think to do that? Do you remember?

I. All I knew was there was a store called ebay and I was trying to buy Dawson's Creek DVDs on eBay because you couldn't buy them in Ireland. And I find this guy in Canada who sold them. And so I bought them and I'm like, wait, don't sell them here. I bet I could. Like, I basically became a drop shipper when I was 13 because I was buying them from this guy and selling them on the UK eBay store. And so, like, that's all I knew. So it's like, sell, you know. You know, I was obviously too young to have a PayPal account, so my mom let me set up some with her information. And then from there, you know, I remember I was like, learning how to use HTML so I can make my.

Listings look better.

And then from there I like, did a couple other things. Like, I think I sold Justin Timberlake DVDs at one point. I know the Justin ones were definitely breaking some sort of copyright infringement for sure. I was told that by ebay when I was 14. I'm like, Ah, damn it. So I, you know, I learned as I. As I went, but the I. I was just sort of like, seeing the problem and being like, well, I have this problem, maybe other people have this problem. And I can now make money from doing bulk deals with this person online and like, just sending them where to send the package to. So it's very much like one thing at a time. And it ended up, like doing Pretty well for a bit.

How did you learn how to do it?

I think I just taught myself how to do it. I remember I was trying to learn how to set up an online store and it was very difficult. And it's funny because I think back, I'm like, I was trying to like pull all these things together so I could have something off of ebay, but then it was super difficult. And now it's funny when I think of Shopify, which, you know, it wasn't around back then, but had it been, that would have been perfect. So if I'd have just learned how to create Shopify, that would have been ideal.

Yeah.

And I think probably you were able to remember using those skills when you were 13. So then when you got the architect job, you saw the sixty thousand dollar closet, you're like, wait, people spend that much for closets? What?

You know, and yeah, and then you.

Got motivated to like have that side business. You know, you're like, I already figured this out once, I'm sure I could figure it out again. Is that, do you think you kind of work through that?

Yeah, I think. Well, something I kind of skipped over was when I got my architecture job. So when I came over from the uk, I had to, you know, get the working visa and all this stuff. And at the time I.

Initially I was going to make like 40,000 and then they emailed me like a month before I was going over. They're like, ah, because I interned for them, so they already knew like they worked well. So they wanted me to come back and do like full time. But then they're like, oh, we're not too busy, so can we pay you like 30,000 and then we'll, you know, increase it once we get more work. And I'm like. At the time, like, I was like, okay, I'll just have to figure it out later. Because I wanted to go and live in New York. So that was kind of, I was like, okay, well I have to figure it out. And then when I got there, I had like two weeks where I was just going to enjoy the city and then I was going to start work and they emailed me like a weekend and saying like, oh, we still don't have, like, we're not that busy so maybe like you can get six weeks. And I'm thinking like, I don't have like, I basically came over with less than a thousand dollars, which, because I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna get paid in two weeks. And so I'm like, oh my God. And at that point, you know, I call them, and I'm kind of like, you know, I'm already in New York at this point, so the idea of, like, waiting six weeks to get paid is kind of insane. I think I talked them down to four weeks, and then for the four weeks, I was trying to just learn anything I could to get by. So I learned how to format Kindle books for people.

And I did that for a bit, or, like, design a logo or, like, build a website. Just really anything it took. But I think that was the first time where I was like, wow, you can really. And now, you know, as someone that owns a business, I can totally see their point of view where it's like, you know, you paying someone's salary that.

You don't have a ton of work on. But at the same time, in my mind, I'm like, well, I can't really trust these people to stick to what they say because I've already been shown twice that that's not true. So that's kind of what. When it was first cemented in my. In my mind of this idea of, like, I have to figure it out for myself.

Yeah. And I love that idea of the freedom vehicle and. Oh, I'm just picturing that in your. In the game right now. Yeah, the freedom vehicle, but. And then you.

Gosh, I don't know. Sorry. Now I'm going, like. I'm like, I'm maybe a board game, too.

I used to love the Game of Life. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I like that idea of figuring out, like, how to pay your bills, like, off your monthly burn, because that's when your creativity then can happen. Right. When you're no longer having to work crazy hours for your job.

You're just.

You're paying your bills, and then everything else kind of can come from there because you're not, like, burning energy on how you're gonna pay rent, basically.

Yeah, Yeah, I really like that. And it also takes the pressure off of, like, literally, you don't have to. You don't have to do this for the rest of your life. You could do it for three months until you figure out what the next thing is. But, yeah, just. It just takes a lot of pressure from people thinking, like, oh, I need to go and create the next Facebook or something. It's like, no, dude, you can just go create websites for people for a couple months and, like, build the savings and then figure out the next thing later.

Yeah, I really. That's really good. That's really good. So what do you think's been the hardest thing for you throughout all the stuff you've been doing?

I mean, it's.

I think I've gone through, you know, I.

Went through a business partner breakup that was very difficult. I went through finding out someone in my company was embezzling from us and going down that route of like working with the.

Police to get him arrested, which I did. But it was just like, it's all these stuff that you don't actually learn in business books. It's the stuff that it's not talked about, but it's really important. Like, so many people get into business partnerships at the start of their career, and they don't even know what that means yet. And they don't know that you should have an operating agreement with all these specific things, which I didn't know. I just assumed positive intent. Things are going to work out, and sometimes they don't work out because.

You'Re not aligned on the same page with someone or you are at the start, but you have very different ideas of where it is you want to go. And then you're trying to unravel this. You're trying to unscramble scrambled eggs, you know, and still run a business at the same time. So that was difficult.

Yeah, I think there's. Those are the, the learning lessons that you get real time, you know, just only from experience sometimes. But yeah, I have, I have experience with the operating agreement too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wrote a very in depth post about like, okay, here's all the things you need to know about. Because I did. No, and a lot of times at the start, especially if you're like, you know, you do the thing, you're taking action, you're not actually thinking like, okay, how will this go wrong? How do I set myself up for it? It's actually, for me, I'm really bad at creating a plan B. I'm like, plan A, plan A, and if plan A doesn't work out, I'll figure out plan B. But I don't like to figure out plan B. At the same time I'm starting plan A and that's. And I'm also have been terrible with paperwork. So between those two things, I've really, like, now I, I am getting much better. But those things like, you know, cost me for sure.

Yeah. And I'm curious because, like, how do you. When you have that plan B and you're asking, how will this go wrong? Like, how do you not get stuck in that analysis? Paralysis. Then, you know, it kind of is hard Sometimes it is hard for, like, a visionary. Right. It's hard to move when you're constantly then having to question it. I think there's some place for that. But I'm just curious, have you noticed now that you're trying that. Is it. Is it helping?

I mean, yeah, I like. I think it's just, like, looking at all sides of it. So it's like, what's the downside of this? And what's set yourself up for it not working out and, you know, having. So if you're going into business with someone, like, you have an operating agreement and you lay out, okay, what's going to happen if you know, because there's this whole statistic of 50% of marriages that in a divorce will, like, 100% of businesses will end at one point or another. Like, what if someone dies? What happens then? And so you should set yourself up so that you know what happens. Like, what happens. When I was going through my business breakup, the business partner was going through a really contentious divorce, and it made everything so much more difficult. And so operating agreements usually take that into account. So it's like, what happens because you don't want to be business partners with or like, lose equity to a. Like a husband or wife of a business partner. But that's not what you get into it for. And so you should have an operating agreement, and then you should also have buy, sell agreement for what happens if you know what happens if one person wants to get out and one person wants to stay, how will you value the business? And if you do that, you know, it's kind of like a prenup for your business. So if you do it ahead of time, you know, when everything's great and you're on good terms, then you're kind of just laying out how you want to unwind things if things go wrong.

Yeah, yeah. It's super smart. And it's almost like your. Your risk assessment now, too, that you're doing when you're asking yourself that question, like, how will this go wrong? Um, and then being able to, like, come up with those.

Those. Yeah. And at the time, you don't think anything's going to go wrong, but you'd be surprised.

Yeah. So let's say you have just one piece of advice for the listeners on how to do the thing. What would you. What would you give to them?

So, I mean, 99% of the thing is just to do the thing. So, like, take the action that you're supposed to be taking and don't get caught up in the minutia of like, what are you getting paid? Or what is your value as, say you're a copywriter and then you spend all your day in emails or like doing random things. Like look at what your calendar looks like and how much time is spent doing the thing that actually brings value and that you enjoy. And if it's not at least 50% doing the thing, like, you should probably look at your calendar and organize some things. And then if you're doing the thing with someone else, just make sure that you're protected with, you know, putting together legal agreements. I always say that, like, when you try to save money by not using a lawyer at the start, I promise you, you will regret that later. There's nothing as expensive as an inexpensive, cheap lawyer.

Yeah, that's actually really good advice. That's really good.

Ask me how I know that that's true.

Yeah, no, that's why I've had like three attorneys on, because I want to make sure people have resources for people that can help them do the thing. Because it is important set up on the back end too.

And one thing when you're going through, like, difficult stuff. So when I was going through my business partner, like, that was like, you could not do the thing when you're whole, when you're trying to negotiate because it's like, it just completely takes up all of your time. And so it's the most unproductive time because you're really just in your head and you're not creative. And that's where I was for like, at least a year of dealing with this thing of like, not wanting to work on the business because I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen. Or like, oh, if I create this product, then like, I'm creating this. Actually, I just couldn't create it because, like, my mind was so, like.

Overwhelmed with.

Everything that was going on. So when we say like, resources to get started, it's. It's really to protect your bandwidth.

For if unfortunately stuff comes up that you are protected and you can know that you put the time in ahead of things to protect yourself. So down the road, if something comes up, it's not taking all of your bandwidth because you've already laid everything out. And at that point it becomes a, you know, if this, then that statement, which you can find in your operating agreement and your buy sell agreement, not that it won't be like, you won't have some stress, but it'll be much, much, much less stressful.

Yeah. How did you. How did you come back from that? Just after kind of dealing with that situation and then. And then you ended up bringing everything back up again.

I mean, I have a great team. I was part of it. I think, honestly, the team really helped me through that because I was kind of not working in the business because I was kind of overwhelmed by it all. So I was just managing, like, the lawyers and, like, going back and forth, and my team, for the most part, were running the day to day, which is why we were able to maintain and then come back from that.

Gotcha.

That's.

That's amazing. So you were able to, like, initiate such a good culture to get people to stand by you while you were going through a really difficult, challenging time.

Yeah, and I wouldn't have, like, would definitely have not made it through had, like, if I had to run a business and I was managing this shit show, for lack of better term, like, I already wasn't sleeping and so trying to do that with COVID at the same time. Oh, wow. Yeah. It was just like a war on several fronts at once.

Yeah.

Are you guys. Are you gonna.

It sounds like you're good at building culture too. Are you gonna have something for companies and employees on, like, with the Best Self company? Is that on your trajectory at all?

We have some stuff around team building, and we haven't. It's on the roadmap. We just. We. We only have so much time and attention, and also that's not our main audience right now. So it's like we're trying to figure out what the best, like, what's the highest impact that we can make. And so far we have other products we're working on, but we do have some ideas around, like, culture and team that we're working on. I think the one thing deck about core values is something that we worked on, which can be used in a lot of different contexts. But one of the things that people have used it for is team building and knowing, like, what each other's core values are.

Yeah, that's. That's great. So I would love you to share all about what you're doing now. And then also we talked a little bit about, like, the dating cards, and then you talked about the self journal, but maybe talk about more about Best Self company. And then I think you have a coaching business too, which is just. If you could just use this time to just sort of let people know about everything that you've got going.

Yeah. So Best Self is tools and frameworks for creating the best version of yourself. So we have.

Relationship products, we have relationship journals, which is a 13 week based structure to improve your relationship. So that's kind of like the, the intimacy and the card decks are lead into that product.

That product is based on. We worked with relationship experts to create a path to basically get you closer to your partner and know like, you know, your love language is why you do the things that you do, like your.

Light and shadow quality. So like a lot of times people get into a relationship and they're attracted to a quality, but then a while down the road, like that same quality, there's a shadow feature which is just the negative part of that. Right. So if someone's like a dreamer and a visionary.

Someone might be in a relationship and be super attracted to that and later be like, oh, they're like just too much living in their imagination. And so you have to like understand like the, the qualities you're attracted in so that you don't try to change someone from the person that you were attracted to in the first place. And so we do some exercises around that.

And that's in what that.

Which product is that? That's the relationship journal.

Relationship journals. You and your partner each get a journal and a workbook and you each week come together and sort of set expectations for the week. But then at the same time you work on like one little aspect of your relationship. And so that's actually the was the biggest product that we did since the self journal as far as like in depth. And I'm really excited about that. And then we have a bunch of card decks around. Like we have one called Thinking Time which is getting away from your business and just thinking about different aspects of it. So instead of, you know, being you know, caught up in a bunch of spreadsheets, like taking time away and it's journaling questions to make your business better. What else I'm looking around me to see.

So if you just go on bestself co I'll create a code, do the thing and you can get a discount off anything on the store. But yeah, if you're looking to, you know, improve your relationship, you know, improve yourself and your habits, improve your relationship with your kids, have your kids, build a growth mindset. We have a children's journal called Little Heroes Journal that actually won like a parenting award a year and a half ago. And we're excited about that because it's basically like things that I wish that I had learned when I was a kid. So it's all about getting away from this idea of a fixed Mindset into a growth mindset. And apart from all those things on my. I have a personal blog@littlemight.com and I just share like that's more of the behind the scenes stuff on the business. So it's more, you know, I talked about the business partner thing and the embezzlement issue. So I basically like take what I learned about self and I share it there. And.

Yeah, that's fun. That's a way to like reflect on things that happen so you don't make the same mistake twice and that people can learn from my mistakes.

I think it's so cool because part of you going through these challenges, right. Is you becoming your best self too, because that's how you learn and that's how you grow. So every time you're coming into another one of these big, huge challenges, you're only growing and getting better and then you're able to share that and you're being really vulnerable with even your own experiences to your listeners there, to the people following you. I think that's, that's really, that's top notch, you know, it's really good.

Yeah, yeah, it's been good. I think it's a little nerve wracking sometimes because a lot, you know, after I put out the embezzlement thing, I, you know, a few people reached out to me and were like, oh, this happened to me. But nobody really talks about it. A lot of stuff times things happen but people won't be public about it. So that people don't really know that it's happening more often than they think. Like investment, for example, happens so often in small businesses specifically. I forget the statistic offline. But like, I'm thinking it only happens like a huge corporation or something like that, but like American greed style or something. But it's actually like much more common than you think, especially when there's someone on the inside like doing it. So it's unfortunate.

Yeah. And it's amazing when you can share because then people can be cognizant of what to look for, you know, and, and kind of know that you, you went through it too, which I think helps when you don't feel as isolated, you know, when you're going through something.

Yeah, yeah. And then also like, here's, here's how they did it so that you can watch out if, you know. Yeah, it could be happening to you.

Totally. So is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I asked you?

No, I mean, this is great. Sometimes I'm like, oh, Wow, I really rambled there. But no, I mean, I'm excited for your challenge. I think it's gonna be great. I loved. I forget who shared your Facebook post with me when you first put up the deck, but I was like, I love seeing it in the wild. When someone shares something that is no connection to me, like, at all. I guess you heard me on Ryan's podcast, but it's still, like, never gets old.

Yeah. Oh, I think it was Sue. Yeah, Sue.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's so cool. And actually, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Do you mind maybe sharing some advice to the people that are going to do. The people that listening are the whole podcast. But there's going to be a group of people that are going to be doing the challenge in October, and we'll be giving away your cards to some of them, and then some of them can buy them if they want not. But like, any kind of advice to using the cards, they're basically getting. Gonna get dares on meeting people in the wild. So using your cards in the wild, meeting people in the wild.

And I.

So the thing I don't know is I already knew, like, my boyfriend and I were already together, you know, like a few months before we started using them. So, like, at what point maybe that would be a good one is like, at what point do they start using them? And then advice about. About incorporating it into their. Their dating life would be great.

Well, it's funny, I have heard of people using the cards on dating apps was like the intro question, which has gotten a good conversion rate from what I understand.

So obviously it's dependent on if you're a relationship or not. I think.

Like, networking and getting out there. I sort of think back on since I moved here and like, that met the people I do. Like, building your network is so important. So sometimes, you know, that could be like a dating prospect, but then sometimes it could just be a friend, right? Or someone that's going to connect you with someone else. And so I want you to, like, just kind of stay open to opportunities. And just because someone's maybe not a good fit doesn't mean that they're not a good fit as a friend or connecting you with someone else that I actually, a few years ago went on a date with someone wasn't a good fit, but I was like, they would actually be really good with this person. And so I connected them and they're still together. So, like, if you, you know, it might not be like a connection there, like, for a Long term partnership. But there could be something where you're like, oh, this person would be great with this person. And so I like to just like keep your options open and also be like, connecting dots. Like half of the stuff that I do these days is like connecting dots of like, oh, this person's having this problem and I know this person that solved it. They should talk. And you can become a connector. So like, think of the dating challenge. Like, yes, it's a dating challenge, but also could just be like, connector challenge. So if you were in a relationship and you're like, I still want to do this, you could just have it be like the, like becoming a connector for people. And then once you connect two people and that's a good experience for them, like, they'll think higher of you. And that's like. A friend of mine wrote a book recently. It's called Two Hour Cocktail Party.

Oh.

And it's all about this. And actually I, I met him and he invited me to a cocktail party. I literally barely knew him. I knew I didn't know anyone that was going to be at this party, but I went and it was honestly like one of the best parties I'd ever been to. And I still talk to people I met from that night, like years ago. And this is New York where everyone's so busy. And so like, becoming a connector can mean so much, not just for your personal life, but for your work life. Creating communities. If you are feeling like you're in a community of people, not. Not much like you. So when I was at school and I have my ebay business, I didn't tell any of my friends because it was kind of weird. And so now the friends that I have, like, they all did weird stuff in high school like that too. And if you're not with. Hanging out with people like you, whether you want that, you feel like you're kind of the odd person on it, you can use ideas and challenges like this to get outside of the normal day to day and sort of build the community and the connections of people that you want to be like or you already like.

Yeah. So that was great. I. I think I wanted to mention. So a friend of mine did the challenge, the do the Thing dating dare challenge. And she actually, we have a boat club together. And she ended up putting a post on Tinder and said, are you single? Come on this boat. I'm gonna invite a bunch of single people. So she curated her own singles event basically on this boat. And it gave me the idea that like, like, you Mentioned the two hour cocktail party and I'm almost wondering. It gave me the idea of like getting, giving people almost like a dating in the box, like a dating event in the box. And then I would like tell them how to buy your cards and then they could almost like do a party and just invite their single, you know, like, and it doesn't have to be like their single friend. It could be their married friend who has a single friend who works with a single friend, you know, and getting the word out. But like.

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome.

Yeah.

And then.

Do you.

So I like the idea when you're. So I like that you're talking about using it very, in the very beginning, like even on a dating app. So do you think it's like appropriate if someone's going on a date and just saying like, oh, hey, I have these like cards, like do you want.

To just pick one?

Is that like appropriate or what do you think about.

About.

About that or when, when to use it in real life kind of thing?

So I think so I would totally use it on a date because it's like, oh, you actually were intentional and bringing something if you, if you've been using it for a while and it looks, well, like pretty worn, probably not a good look for a date. So again, I think it like shows intention and it's like fun because then it takes the onus off the other person so that it's like whatever the card says. It's like you're not asking, wait, why, why are they asking that? So yes, do it. But I wouldn't do it with everyone all the time.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And I have like, just so you guys know, like, I have a friend that like she and her boyfriend, they just do one card at dinner and it's like an hour, you know, it lasts hours. And I know when me and my boyfriend were doing them, like we would just do one a night. And then sometimes we'd spend a while on one card. But then it ripples into like other stuff that we weren't even planning on, you know, even thinking about. So it's like, it's kind of cool. So those cards last a really long time because it's not like you're just taking one. It's not meant to just take one and go blah, blah, blah, you know, like you're.

Yeah, you're exploiting.

Usually you do it like a few at a time and then you kind of go off on a tangent because you start talking about other things and that's What? I've heard a lot, actually. My coach at my gym for the longest time, him and his wife used it, but they didn't know it was my company until later when something on Instagram and they were like, oh, my God, we've been using those cards for like the last year and a half.

That's so cool. That is really cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking to me and thank you for creating such an amazing, amazing gift, you know, for people to use and to connect deeper. And I just, I'm just really. I admire you for, like, what you did and, and being able to affect people in the way that you have.

Awesome. Thanks so much. This was really fun.

Oh, share your websites again just in case they need to rewind it if they're driving.

Yeah. So it's best self co and I'll put a code up there for do the thing and then my personal site is littlemight.com perfect.

Thank you, Katherine. Great.

Thanks for listening to the do the Thing podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. But even more, we hope you'll be inspired to do the thing. Do you have a burning question on Doing the Thing that you'd like answered? How about an inspiring do the Thing story of your own that you'd like to share? We'd love to hear all about it. Just leave us a voice message at dothing.

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