Episode 70 - Jana Eilermann Wants Kids To Turn Off Their Devices And Connect With Nature

I do really believe 100% from every part of me that everyone has the capacity to be able to do the things that they want and not to be held back by the mental baggage that's in our head that we want to push through.

Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. In each episode, we get down and personal with people who go after the things they want to make all their wildest dreams come true. Join us as we unveil and dissect a formula for what it takes to do the thing. Here is your host, Stacy Lauren.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. This is your host, Stacy Lauren. I've got a real story in store for you today. Our guest is a therapist at an amazing wilderness program in North Carolina. One of the things I really love about doing this podcast is how I can give access to you on important topics that you may not necessarily know about or have access to. This episode is really about Doing the thing when it comes to mental health, which is such an important topic nowadays. In the interview, our guest talks about doing hard things without worrying about the outcome. She also emphasizes that allowing kids to experience their emotions, letting them be uncomfortable, and giving them the tools to come up with solutions to their problems are the greatest tools parents can provide. These transferable skills will help them today and well into the future as they approach adulthood. Today's guest is a walking example of the do the Thing formula, and you'll hear so many of the pieces hidden throughout her story. Please welcome Jaina to the show. I'd love to start off and have you tell the listeners more about you and your background.

Yeah, so my background, I guess I grew up. I was 1000% a summer camp kid. That's where I lived my best life. My bachelor's degree is in wilderness leadership and experiential education. And then from there I went on to get my master's degree in professional mental health counseling with a focus in addictions and ecopsychology, which is the science of why nature works and why we as humans generally feel better and have, like, an intrinsic connection to the wild. And then immediately following grad school, I started working at Trails Carolina, which is a therapeutic wilderness program located in western North Carolina.

That's amazing. I actually didn't even know. I never even heard of eco psychology. That's fascinating.

Yes, it's my super nerdy way. Being outdoorsy, I was, okay, I can do all the fun outdoor stuff, but I'm also going to know the science behind why we're doing it so I can convince Everybody to do it.

Yeah.

And so is that. So it was driven from you loving the outdoors, was driven from you going to camp as a kid and got to see what that did for you.

Very much. Like, I grew up in a pretty big city, went to like high pressure high school and was just confined and contained in so many ways. Never really felt guy fit. And then I started going to camp when I was 12 and was just, oh, my gosh, I can just be my weird little self out here. This is great. We don't have to shower. Even better. Yeah. Just the. I think the art of play. Play was a big portion of that. And then just not constantly being overstimulated by bright lights, crowded places, loud noises. I was able to feel like a sense of calm that I didn't feel in my everyday life.

Yeah. So I'm thinking, imagining you as 12, you're at this high pressure school, and then all of a sudden you have your first camp experience. And then it's almost just an unleashing of yourself in a way. And you felt more of belonging almost to your environment so much.

And then throughout high school, I kept finding more and more ways to go to camp. So you went for a week during the summer and then I'd go two weeks during the summer. And then, oh, I can work here now. Great. And you have weekends. Okay, I'll be there this weekend and this weekend and just need some help cleaning up. I'm there. So it really became like my identity was camp girl. And I was fortunate that I lived close enough that I could just drive there. But yeah, it was important, impactful, and helped me get to a grounded place that I could then push through the weeks that I couldn't be at camp. I was able to go then back into high pressure city academic. Like I had to take what who has to take what and could muscle through all of the challenges that came with that. With this, okay, I get to go back to the woods. I get to go back to camp. I have this stable community of people who are like me so that I can take more risks in this social environment where maybe I don't feel like I fit.

Yeah, there's so much in that that's so, that's so cool because you kind of found your people so you didn't feel as isolated anymore in your regular environment because you're okay, well, these aren't my people. I know who my people are. So you almost fell into then what that role was while you're at school. School. And being able to be More accepting of it.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it helped me to find because a lot of the people that went to my school went to the same camp, but we weren't necessarily in the same social groups, so it was, oh, I didn't think we would be friends, but here we are. Yeah. And even outside of that, just knowing that there were people like me, even if it wasn't in this specific environment where in a lot of ways I think I felt trapped, I knew that it wasn't that everywhere. And I think for so many middle schoolers on high schoolers, people in general, what's in front of us feels all there is until we can step out of that. Oh. Huh. Okay. There's another way of looking at this. There's another way of being in the world than what I thought and was limited to just through the scope of my own previous experiences.

So at Trails then how. How is that going for you? Like how. Who are you helping? What is that?

I work primarily with middle schoolers, so my niche is really the 12 to 14 year old usually assigned female at birth kids. We've got a lot of gender exploration going on there, so I don't want to say exclusively one gender or the other, but yeah, I mean, middle schoolers who are in it, they're really struggling to figure out who they are and where they fit and just how to exist in a world that is ever changing. And as we look at that, you know, because TRAILS works with all kids, 10 to 17 year olds of any gender. Right. And as we're looking at trends, this group of like middle school quote girls or people who are assigned female at birth tend to have the most. The second you think you're caught up, there's something new in a way that we don't necessarily experience in the other groups. Like it's a constantly moving target of how to be, how to fit in. And so my kids are caught up in that system of trying to impress people. I get a lot of people pleasers. I get a lot of kids who are exaggerating or lying to try to fit in or entertain people or stand out, but in the cool way. A lot of social masking and laughing because everyone else is laughing, not because they necessarily think that it's funny or get the joke. So much social pressure to be and perform into a really specific way and to fit a mold that I don't know that anybody really fits comfortably. But that's kind of the whole thing of middle school is everybody's a little bit weird, but nobody wants to admit that. And then when you add in Instagram and, oh, but this girl is. She's not weird at all. Oh, no, she's still weird that she farts. Just everybody else. So when we can take away some of that filter of what the ideal life is, they get to a baseline. They get to figure out a little bit more of one. They get to realize that everybody's a little weird. It's not just them. A lot of the struggles they're going through are universal. And it's okay for them to be different. It's okay for them to be whoever they want to be. And they're still likable. In fact, often more likable because they're different and they're authentic versus the. Like a carbon copy of a Kardashian or whoever they think is. Is perfect at the time.

Yeah. You're almost bringing out their uniqueness, which is then the thing that's helping people see who they really are, which is then what's attracting them even more to. To people being their friend or whichever way it goes.

Yeah. People are attracted to confident people. And so if you. Even if you're doing all of the right things right in air quotes, if you're not doing it confidently, if you're not doing it authentically, people are often put off by it. There's a question or just aha. That doesn't feel right. But thinking back to all of the kids that I looked up to, all of the people that I've looked up to is, were they, quote, normal? No. But what they were doing seemed normal because they did it with grace and confidence and authenticity. They weren't trying to be something that they weren't. And that. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really. I'm blanking on the word. It's like a magnetic quality. Wow. You really embody yourself. I am drawn to that. I want to be that. How do I be more like that? Which is kind of the catch 22, is that so many of us are trying to be that in the same way as everybody else, when that might not be the most authentic way to do that. Yeah.

So how do you do that? What's the program? Can you kind of walk us through how long and then what goes on?

So our kids are typically with us for about three months. They don't know that coming in. We try to keep it really based on you're going to be here as long as it takes to work through what you need to work through. And so having it feel pretty customized and Dependent on what they do. Right. A lot of what we're doing is teaching your actions have consequences, positive and negative. Anything that you do is going to have both positive and negative consequences. And so teaching them like, do the hard work, you get this reward. And then. Yeah, so it's about three months and they are really removed from everything that's familiar to them. So as you can imagine, that first couple of weeks, sometimes up to a month is really scary for these kids. They're coming oftentimes from big cities. Some of them have never camped a day in their life. They're self proclaimed indoor kids. And then they come to the woods and they're, holy cow, what? I have to poop. Where? Which is a bucket, for the record. But it's, it's a nice bucket, has a little toilet seat on it. And that's a whole other topic that I don't know that your listeners are ready for. But they might be curious though. Yeah. So just navigating how to, how to exist without all of the creature comforts. Instead of a down comforter, they get a down sleeping bag instead of their iPhone. They can draw, they can sing songs, they can make up songs. But it really is removing a lot of distractions and some of that is good. We get a lot of kids who are maybe obsessive about social media or video games or their phones. And so stepping away from that is useful. And some of the things that they're stepping away from are. It's really hard to wrap your head around at first. These are the, the people that have supported you. So stepping away from your parents for maybe the first time, stepping away from your friend group for maybe the first time, and really trying to figure out who you are not only outside of that, but within that as well. And so a lot of our kids have family struggles. There's a lot of tension there. And I tell parents, you can't put the fire out while you're in it. And so that separation, while it feels really counterintuitive, is really helpful for a lot of families to slow down that communication and be intentional and respond versus reacting. And so, I mean, they really are stripped of everything that they're familiar with and given some sticks and told to start a fire, they're like, wait, what? So a removal of like a lot of modern day comforts, but also the relationships. And that's a really difficult piece to wrap their head around. And then while they're with us, they are learning wilderness survival skills. So we do a lot of backpacking, we do A lot of fire building. We do. You have to know how to hang your food in a tree. And, you know, natural consequences of, you know, I had a group a couple weeks ago who's just brushing rice onto the ground. They're like, oh, I don't want this. Why do we have so many animals in camp? That's why. So experiencing the natural consequences of things as well. And then a lot of interpersonal, social, emotional skills, so mindfulness and grounding techniques, communication and conflict resolution skills. And then a lot of just time to reflect and learn about themselves. I tell the kids, I literally do not care if you can start a fire in the real world. That doesn't matter to me. What I care about is how you respond to challenges. And it's interesting because you'll see the kid who gets really obsessive about it. This is the only thing that I will do today. And then you have the kid that's, I know I can do it, so I don't have to try. I'm just, good. I'm not going to try that. And then, you know, a million places in between. The kid that is so afraid of making a mistake that they don't try at all for three weeks, and they're stuck, and they're not moving forward in their assignments, that they're not earning more privileges because that fear of failure is so profound to them. And then we've got the kids that it comes easy for and naturally for. They're just like, boom, fire done. And then because they're in a group together, there's some conflict that arises around that. There's some jealousy, and that's okay. I think so much in our world today, we avoid things that are difficult or things that are uncomfortable. And as parents, right, we want to protect our kids from uncomfortable feelings. It would be so great if you just never had to feel rejection. It'd be so great if you never had to experience failure. And that is one of the greatest disservices that we're doing to our kids and to ourselves is because we don't ever learn how to handle those big feelings that come up. And so allowing them to experience their triggers, allowing them to experience the things that are so difficult for them, and then supporting them through that. I'm not kind of your trigger. Have fun. No. Okay. Something's coming up for you. Let's talk about it. What do you believe about yourself when Susie starts the fire before you? What do you feel about yourself when this came really, when fire building came really easy for you? But you don't really have any friends in the group, what's coming up. And then giving them the skills and the scaffolding so that they can face their challenge, whatever that is, be it physical, interpersonal, emotional, to work through that and resolve it. So typically, when our kids graduate, they have a sense of groundedness to them, a sense of confidence that's rooted not so much in what they can do, but who they are, a confidence that they can face challenges. It doesn't matter if that doesn't matter what the challenge is. They know that they can do hard things. That is a requirement for all of my students to grad. Do you know that you can do hard things? And they'll all say, yeah, gosh, they're 13. But to see them and to see them light up after they go on an epic hike that they didn't think they could do, to see the smile on their face after they've busted their first coal bow, drilling, it's like, that's. That's it. And then figuring out how to essentially bottle that so they can use it for later. Let's reflect on it. Let's spend some time. Let's not only have this peak experience, but give it time to kind of percolate and sift through your body so that you can go back on that and you can call upon it when you go back home and you're nervous about trying out for football, you're nervous about your first exam, you're nervous about making friends, whatever that challenge is being like, oh, yeah. I remember feeling nervous about that really epic hike that we did, and I didn't think I could do it. And we did it. Okay. Yeah, I got this. So that's. That's a very basic rundown of a really complicated 90 days.

That was amazing the way you were able to. To explain it. And it's funny that you mentioned that idea of building confidence in one thing and then it lead to another thing. That's something I've been really exploring more, is almost with the do the thing formula. And you know how there's smart, specific, measurable. Yeah, it's almost like a lot of people don't talk about this other kind of goal where they don't even have to be related to each other. It just needs to be. This thing that I did was maybe a level 4 on the difficulty scale. So that means I can do another thing. Even completely opposite from that. That's a level four. When it builds that six skill of being able to accomplish something that is hard, transferable, Skills.

That's what it's all about. And that's where I think, developmentally, my students tend to struggle with that because they're seriously, why am I ever going to need to build a fire? Like, you're probably not for doing things right. You know, when the zombie apocalypse happens, obviously I'll be glad you're on my team, but outside of that, you don't. But you are going to have to face things that you don't think that you can do. It's all metaphor, really. And that's. That's difficult, especially with rigid brains that don't necessarily understand metaphors yet. But, yeah, I mean, whether it's. Whether it's a fire, whether it's asking for a promotion, whether it's anything that you're doing in life, it's having the skillset and the confidence to know that you can push through the difficult thing and that we don't get the rewards without taking those risks.

How do you help someone walk through that?

It takes a lot of patience and I think not having any stake in the game. Right. I think for a lot of our students, there is so much pressure, whether that's coming from parents or whether that's coming from themselves or from their teachers or their friends. And when kids lose motivation, I think so much of things, like, it's all lost. They have to find that motivation, and we can't find it for them. And so I think in my role, it's asking the right questions. It's helping them find anything that's enjoyable. When you take a kid who's really, really depressed and can't get the motivation to get out of bed, they've lost interest in everything that they've loved. Then what's one thing that doesn't suck right now? That's one of my favorite questions. Like, it doesn't even have to be good. It just has to not suck. Suck. Well, it's not raining, so I guess that doesn't suck. Great. Is there anything that you might want to do today? Anything that you. That we can engage you in, that's not gonna suck. And sometimes there's a little bit of pushing. It's not necessarily toward the goal, just getting them to do anything. So I've got a couple of games that I like to play that just bring out their silly sides, get them laughing. Finding a reason to want to be alive is oftentimes the first step for us. And then once we've got that, helping them to identify what their goals are. Right. Kids come in, and my parents Goals for me while I'm here are this, this, this, and this. Great. I don't care about any of that. And they're like, what? Don't you talk to my parents? Yeah, I do. I don't care what their goals are. What are your goals? How can I help you make your own life better? And hearing from their perspective what has gotten in their way? And that, again, that's not one conversation. You ask a kid the first week, and they don't want to be there. My life is literally fine. Okay, well, you haven't left your bed in a month. What was fine about that? What have you lost? Again, I don't say it quite that snarkily, but helping them, I mean, if you're familiar with motivational interviewing, I would say that's. That's the primary kind of. That's how change happens. I can't. My job isn't to convince you that you have to change. And the more pressure that I put on you to change, the more I'm telling you, Stacy, you have to change. You have to do this and this and this. If someone told me that my shoulders are up at my ears, my hands are out, stay away. I don't want that. So it's a lot of, well, what changes would you like to make? Do you think that you have a problem? You know, have other people said that? Are there things that you would more or less of in your life? And sometimes that starts with, yeah, I want my parents to stop pestering me to get out of my bed. Okay, how can we do that? What can you do? Because a lot of times they're saying, well, then my parents need to stop doing that. Okay, well, we can't control what they do. What actions can you take to keep your parents from pestering you less? I guess I could get out of bed, maybe. Are there other things that you can do? So it's not my job to tell them what they need to change. It's not my job to change for them. It's holding the space and being patient enough for them to figure that out on their own. And the solution that I might think of, the solution that worked for me when I was in middle school or is working for me now, is not going to work for 90% of these kids because we're different. And so if I'm trying to solve the problem for them, throwing solution after solution after solution, they're getting overwhelmed. I'm getting angry because that's not going to work for me. And I'm like, can't do it for you. And we're losing the relationship, right? We're losing any sense of seeing each other and hearing each other in that process. So, yeah, just giving them the space to explore it, allowing them to come up with their own solutions. And in doing so, they're learning how to solve their own problems. Because if a student is reliant on me to solve problems for them, then that kid is going to be in treatment forever. And we don't want that for our kids. It's about teaching them to solve their own problems so that they can go home, they can go back into the real world and face adversity and figure out what steps they can take. I cannot control what other people do. Here are the steps that I can take to improve my own situation.

What would be your best thing that's worked the best with you? Being able to teach them solve their own problems? It sounds like with the questioning, but, like, what kinds of questions get them to be able to. To do that?

A lot of times we start with just imagination. Can you imagine a world where this problem doesn't exist? Especially if you've got a kid who has been anxious for years, a kid who is so depressed they cannot remember a time before that? If you've only had 12 years of life, two years of that feels massive. Right. It is legitimately hard to remember a time before depression, before anxiety. And so can we envision a world where things aren't like this? Are there characters on TV or in books that you've read who. How would they handle this problem? And so looking to see how people who maybe they admire or characters that they admire would handle a similar situation is often a good kind of creative, fun starting point. They're. They're kids, too. I can't get too heady with them. So I like to start by engaging the imagination. And then step two is they're good at coming up with goals. They know what they want their life to look like. They're less good at seeing the rungs of the ladder to get there and so breaking it down. Okay, you want to go to. You want to make your varsity volleyball team amazing. Okay. What steps does it take to get there? Well, I need to try out. Yeah, that's a rung of the ladder. What else needs to happen before you can try out? Well, I should practice. What else? Well, I. And sometimes they don't know this stuff, so we have to teach them, too. Is there a grade point average that you have to maintain to be on the team? Okay, so then what does that look like doing homework? Getting tutoring, going to school. So identifying all of those different steps that it takes to get to the place that they're going and then chunking it down even further. Okay, you have to do homework if you want to be on the varsity volleyball team. What's difficult about being homeworked? What's difficult about doing homework? And even that for some of my kids is so difficult for them to understand. They're like, well, I'll just do it, right? I understand that if I don't, then I'll have a consequence. So I'll just do it. And reminding them that they didn't do it because they're lazy, they didn't do it because they of some character flaw. Like, if it was easy enough to just do the thing, you would have done it already. There was something getting in your way. And so not only identifying the rungs of the ladder to get to where you want, but identifying which of those rooms are broken and need repair. Right. Like, what's difficult about doing homework? Well, I would rather be on my phone. All my friends are there. I'm so afraid that if I put my phone down that I'm going to miss out on something super important in my social life, or I'm afraid that one of my friends is going to struggle, so I can't focus on this, so I just don't do it. Or I'm already so far behind in math, there's literally no point in even trying to catch up. I feel like such a failure. Okay, let's process those feelings so that we can put that rung back together, repair it, make it solid and steady so that you can then move to the next one.

And how do you help them process their feelings at that point?

A lot of it, I think, is just normalizing that everybody has these feelings and that it's not a character defect, it's not a flaw. And allowing it to be hard, allowing it to just suck. We sit in the mud sometimes, literally, and just experience, like, yeah, this is a really difficult problem to have. What sorts of things have you tried before? How do you feel about yourself? And then shifting the framework. Right. I can't change the fact that a kid might have dyslexia and might really struggle with reading. But what we can work on is how they see themselves struggling with that. So. So very often, like, our kids, especially our kids with learning differences, will say, well, I. I just suck at this. I'm a terrible person. I'm never going to be good enough. And shifting that from, okay, you might not have great reading skills and you're still a good person. And this is challenging. Going from like the mindset of I can't do this to I haven't done this yet. And yeah, I mean, I think so much of it just comes down to the framework and the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves. I just listened to a podcast. It was Hidden Brain, a two part series on mindsets. And I mean, the main takeaway is that basically everything is the placebo effect. And so whatever you think about yourself is going to be true. So if you are constantly telling yourself, I'm such a bad person, I'm so stupid, nobody likes me, you're gonna, your brain is gonna find evidence to support all of those beliefs, even if that evidence is super minor. So you take a kid who thinks that everyone hates them, and then they're gonna perceive someone looking at them and then looking away as see if she's judging you, when in reality she's, oh, I wonder if she has a pencil I can borrow. Oh, no, I didn't see an extra pencil on her desk.

Right. It's. Yeah, yeah. And then these kids are going to start pulling away. They're going to sit further away. Their faces might look a little standoffish and they're see nobody. Like you're sitting 20ft away from everybody scowling. Are you expecting them to cut? Like, what can. Again, it goes back to what can you do differently to improve your situation? And then challenging the way that we see ourselves in the stories we tell. That girl totally could have been judging you. She also could have just been admiring your outfit or wondering if you had a pencil to borrow. So, yeah, challenging some of those what's the gut reaction knee jerk thoughts that we have.

Oh, my gosh. So good. So good. And then I was wondering too, so how are you actually getting these kids off of their technology? And like, how are they still operating?

It's hard. There's varying degrees of it. So there's our kids who overuse technology and they certainly miss it in their first couple of days, but what's happening? And you'll, I mean, they'll still do tick tock dances. They'll still ask me, they're like, what's trending? I don't know. You and I are on very different sides of tick tock. Let's get that right. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard. There's an adaptation period for sure. And I would say for, for kids who are overusing technology, it takes maybe Like a day, a day and a half to just kind of settle. There's still some anxiety about what they're missing out on, but I would say it's more socially related versus just like a need for it. And then you've got the kids who are truly addicted to technology, and that looks different. They experience withdrawals. They have no idea how to get their needs for connection, significance, contribution, variety, certainty met without that device. Those are the kids that have the phantom buzzing in their pocket. Those are the kids that they hear my phone ding and their ears perk up. They're like little sonar, like beep, beep, beep, beep. Those are the kids that are going to take some risks to try and acquire a device. I would say those are fewer and farther between than the kids that are just overusing it. Yeah, it's definitely hard. I feel for them in terms of how we do it. We just don't allow phones. And most parents know that. So some of the parents will. We'll prepare them for that. Give them an opportunity to tell their friends, hey, I'm going off the grid. I'd say that's the biggest anxiety that we feel or that our kids feel is, do my friends think I'm dead? I've just ghosted them for three months. So we'll encourage parents to, to just let your. Let your kids friends know that they're alive and they're just off their devices for a little while. But I have a really insightful student in my group right now. It's like, you know what? I don't feel anxious about not having my phone. What I feel anxious about is not having my phone in a world where everybody else does. And so. Right. Like this child has experienced, experienced just the decrease of pressure from not having to keep up with kids, from not having to perform and to show up and to create content all of the time to stay relevant. And she's good with that. Until we reintroduce a peer group that does have access to that. And I think just the social expectations. And so I think that's. That's a battle that every parent is fighting. You know, I've met very few parents that want their kids to spend a significant amount of time on social media. But we all want our kids to have connection. And so I think as a society, we're going to have to figure out where our values lie and how we can create that and find that community of people who are like us and help our kids find a community of people who are like that may or May not involve technology or might have varying degrees of technology. Yeah, it's, it's definitely a moving target in 2022, where we've all got multiple devices. And especially coming out of a pandemic, this generation, really, especially the kids who were little when the pandemic started, they missed a lot of social education. There's a lot of social skills and a lot of social anxiety about face to face, about interactions. And so there's, yeah, there's a dependency on it. And my hope is that we can, we can bounce back from that as a society. But it's, it's tricky. For sure.

That's one of the harder addictions because it's something you kind of need to have in everyday life. Either school, work, you're still having access. And so it's. How do you manage that?

I think about technology addiction more similarly to eating disorders. Right. You can't just not eat then. The same way that you can't just abstinence your phone, you can't just not have it. And so how can we create healthy boundaries around it? How can we make sure that we're getting all of our needs met in a variety of ways and that the phone can certainly supplement that, but is not the only tool that we have to use.

Have you thought about this at all? Like, how does someone maybe that doesn't have their kid in a wilderness program, how would they be able to do this at home?

Is there a way? Yeah, I mean, I think there is, but it's, it's hard, right? Boundaries in general are hard. And a lot of times that means that we as the parents have to change our own behaviors. There's a PSA video that Will Ferrell made many years ago. I can send you the link. But he's at the table and he's on his phone and the kids are just asking him a million questions. He's, huh, Cool, honey. Sweet, right? And I think that's so much of, of the world that we are in. A lot of kids, parents are actually more addicted to their phones than their kids are. But we justify it because it's work. Air quotes there for people who can't see me or no, I need to do this or I'm shopping right now for you. This is an essential. It's still screen time. Your kid is seeing that, your kid like you're role modeling it. And then we're mad at our kids when all of their needs are met through the device. And so I think the first step is looking at yourself and having a really clear. Just having clear boundaries and role modeling that I can turn my phone off. I don't have to be accessible 100% of the time. I want to be here now with you. We are in this room together. We are interacting together. And then I think finding ways to use technology in a connective way versus an isolating way. A lot of families, it's. Everyone's got their own screens in their own room, and there isn't interaction. What if we all picked a movie and watched it together? What if we all played this game together and it can be a video game, Right? Technology isn't inherently bad, but finding ways that we can understand what our kids are doing on it, what needs they're getting met, and then I think having boundaries and follow through. How many times have I used to be a nanny, right? And the number of times that I'm sitting at the park and parents are like, just five more minutes. We're gonna leave in five minutes. And then I'm like, looking. I was like, it's been an hour and a half. You're still here. So if you say five more minutes, make sure it's five more minutes. Let them know that you're gonna follow through with that so that there's some predictability in those boundaries. And I think when boundaries are loose, when we don't follow through with them, kids generally feel uncomfortable and they start to push that. They want to know. They need to know where that edge is. And so they're going to keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And then I think this is the hard part and why a lot of kids end up in wilderness is brace for the reaction. Especially if your kid has had, or anyone in your family really has had unchecked time on technology. I guess, guess it doesn't really even matter what the like, quote, behavior is or what the problem is. If you're saying, we're not going to do that anymore, your kid is going to react. And that doesn't mean that we flex the boundary. When we do flex the boundary, it shows them that when they react in that way, they get what they want. And so letting them react, this sucks. And sitting in the suck with them. I'm so sorry. It absolutely sucks that you can't finish your game right now. I'm happy to hear whatever feelings you have about it. We can talk about that all day long. And I need you to know that my boundary isn't changing. And so one, in doing that, you're making space for them to have an authentic emotional reaction to you're. Staying in relationship. You're not ditching them. You're not like sucks to suck and walking away. And three, you're teaching them that throwing a tantrum that whatever they're doing is not a productive way to get what they want and that they will get their device again tomorrow for the same amount of time. Right. It's not going away forever. We're just decreasing it. We're creating some healthy boundaries and then I think finding other ways to connect when that device is off. Hey, do you want to help me cook dinner? Why don't we take the dogs for a walk together? I know you really have been talking to Joey a lot. Maybe Joey wants to come over one night this week. Finding ways to connect, have relationship that aren't totally tied up in that device. Both with you, with their friends. Yeah, all of, all of that stuff.

And then how do you. Because you're taking kids and some have not even been outside. You said the self professed indoor kids. How are you in terms of wilderness goes getting them to sleep outside? Do these hikes and even that physical abilities are all different. How does that work?

There's a phrase I, we take the time it takes. So it takes less time. So that first night, it takes a long time. I've had kids, they're like, I am not sleeping in a sleeping bag. Absolutely not. Okay, that's your choice. How do you want to move? We're here. We're not moving. We're not like, we can't manifest a bed for you. But if you don't want to sleep in a sleeping bag, let us know where you do want to sleep. And so sometimes that means like a kid is just like sitting up and they're up really late and then eventually they get tired enough and they're okay. Me refusing isn't going to get me a bed. I guess I'll get in my tent. I guess I'll get in my sleeping bag. Hiking. Oh, heck no. I am not hiking up that. Absolutely not. I've had kids refuse to hike for several days. I've had kids refuse to hike for five minutes. We take the time it takes. We process all of the feelings and just make space for them to be mad about it. It sucks that you're out here. It sucks that it's raining on this day that we're making this big hike. It's allowed to suck. We don't have to fix it. We can't fix it. Like, what am I going to do? Yell at mother Nature? But we can support them. And we can support all of the feelings that are coming up around it. And when we take all of that time on the front end just to sit with kids and allow them to experience the suck, experience how miserable it is, they will usually make a choice to make themselves less miserable, whether that is putting their raincoat on. They're still not hiking, but they've at least got their raincoat on. And they're sitting still, getting in their sleeping bag, asking for help, or just doing the thing. They figure it out. But it. It takes time. And each time we do it, it takes a little bit less time because.

They'Re building the muscle of doing it. And so it's. It's getting easier and easier for them to be able to do it.

Exactly. And they're seeing the positive and negative consequences. So many kids are coming in and they're like, you can't control me, as. You're right, I can't. I don't want to control you. Wait, what? No. That's frankly, way too much responsibility. I can barely manage myself. But teaching them and showing them it is absolutely your choice. If you don't want to eat rice and beans tonight, that's totally an okay choice to make. And so when I stop fighting with them over eat the beans, then it puts them in a position because they're used. Like our kids are used to us fighting with them over really stupid stuff. That's parenthood. We have all the weird fights in the world. But when I stop fighting that and I say, if you don't want to eat it, it's your choice. Let's play out some positive and negative consequences. Feel like positive consequence? I don't have to eat rice and beans. That is gross. Okay. Negative consequence. I'm probably going to be hungry. Yeah. What else? Well, I know I get headaches when I don't eat. What else? Well, it's harder for me to think and make good choices when I don't eat. Any other positive consequences you can think of? I won't have to clean my cup if I don't put rice and beans in it. Okay, well, it's your choice to make. It sounds like you've got a pretty clear idea of positive and negative consequences. Let me know what you choose. And so I'm not fighting with them. They're not experiencing that pressure from me to do anything. One way or another, they're learning how their behavior, how their choices impact them. And I'd say most of the time, they make the choice that is in their own best interest.

Yeah. And it's really cool hearing you talk about the. What else? What else? That's part of one of the things that I think gets people stuck is fear. Right. And that. And I have this risk assessment that I've been working on. And what else is then helping them get to the root of whatever's holding them back? So they're really trying because a lot of times we just have this superficial level. And then by you probing them and asking that question, they're really getting to the root of what it is that's at their core.

Yeah. One of my favorite things that we do with them. It's a way of slowing down. This is the thing that happened, and this is how I reacted. And so I have them come up with choices. How could you have handled that differently? Or how if this were to happen? What choices do you have to. In this situation? They know the right answer. Air quotes again. I would tell them how I feel. You could also kick them. And they look at what. Yeah, you could absolutely kick the kid. Am I recommending it? I don't know. What are some positive and negative consequences? Well, it actually feel kind of good to kick them. They'd know exactly how I feel that way. Probably. What are some negative consequences? I don't think they'd want to be my friend after that. Yeah. What are some other positive and negative consequences or some other choices that you could make and trying to open up ideas around how things can be different. There isn't a right answer. There are several right answers. And which right answer you choose is going to depend on who you are and your past experiences and how you would rank those positive and negative consequences. The right choice for me might be to kick the kid. It's not. I don't kick kids. Just so we're clear on that, the right choice for you might be to tell someone how you feel or to hold it all in and say, no, it's fine. Everything's fine. I'm totally fine. Right. Positive and negative consequences. Avoided confrontation. That was great. Negative consequence didn't solve the problem. I still feel bad.

So my other question is, what's the hardest thing that you've seen people go through?

I mean, I think that's different for every person. There's not. If you've experienced this, you've experienced the hardest thing. And so in that sense, I think maybe comparing each other, a lot of people have experienced what might be classified as trauma, but because it wasn't, quote, bad enough, then it doesn't count. And so kind of undermining that for themselves or saying, I actually don't have it that bad? I mean, I guess it's a hard question to answer, but yeah, I mean, we're coming out of three years of a global pandemic. Nobody's doing okay, and that's. It's okay. Like, we don't all have to be thriving right now. We are all experiencing struggle. And whether your struggle is with suicidality or what we call like a big T trauma, something terrible that happened to you, a single time event, or if it's just, you know, like, I'm a little lonely, like it counts and it matters, it's not. Yeah, there isn't a right way to feel right now. We're all going through it, and whatever the struggle is, it's important.

And what would you say your biggest piece of advice would be for people on doing the thing?

I think lean into discomfort. Right? Discomfort is telling us something. It's telling us. Well, it's telling us a lot of things. But growth is not easy. Right. If you are, if you go to the gym and you're working out and you're not getting sore, you're also not getting stronger. Lean into the thing that's difficult. Investigate why it's difficult. It doesn't mean you have to do it right away. Just understand why you're not. I think you mentioned even what's, what are the barriers to getting there. And I think striking that balance between self compassion and pushing ourselves to grow. So many, I think so many people try to bully themselves into being better and to doing the thing. And again, if it was gonna work, it would have worked by now. I think most people are pretty good at bullying themselves and talking down to ourselves. But that's, that's not how we grow. That's not how we get better.

Yeah. So kindness, compassion, understanding that we're doing the best that we can and if it's something that you want to do, you're going to figure out a way do it. And if you don't want to do it, maybe that's not your goal. Maybe there's another goal that's better suited for you.

And do you have some good mindset thing that would be good for someone to say to themselves when they're doing something hard and they, they want to push past the discomfort?

For me, personally, I focus, I call it like type two fun. Type one is like, this is fun in the moment. Type two is this will make a great story one day. So that's kind of how I muscle through it. It's like, this sucks. And this is going to be a great story to tell my friends later.

I think maybe more professionally, therapeutically, like again, the like, maybe right answer would be just like talking yourself up, amp yourselves up, talk to your friends, give yourself that pep talk. Whether anything, it depends on the thing. It's like, I can do this. It's hard and I can do this. But trying to stay away from the, like, this sucks. I'm so incapable. And when I, you know, we all have moments when we recognize ourselves getting into that shifting of like, yeah, this does suck. And I've experienced other things that suck and I've done it anyway. I've gotten through it. I know that this sucky thing is going to make me a better person. I will appreciate the outcome. And so just shifting our focus from how much it sucks to where we're going to go.

Yeah, I really like that. And what advice would you give someone that can't send their kid to wilderness or themselves? They're struggling. Either they are in the room constantly and hibernating or their kid is just to be able to get outside. What would be your suggestion there?

Start small. You don't have to go to the depths of, of the wilderness to experience a positive effect. That could look like getting a little fountain in your room. Just like those little battery powered water features can be soothing. Put up a picture of a tree. Look at that. Go out onto your porch, small steps. Watch if you're hibernating, watching Netflix. Watch shows about the outdoors. Maybe not scary ones, but fun ones. And there's, I mean, there's lots of resources out there. Black people. Camp 2 is one that's really blowing up right now in terms of accessibility of nature and getting people of color who have usually been disenfranchised from the outdoors into the outdoors. There's pretty much anywhere, maybe not anywhere, but I can think of a couple programs that work predominantly with inner city kids who might not have a lot of access to nature. Getting them out. Outward Bound has programs for at risk youth or adjudicated youth. And so it's not therapy necessarily, but it's out. Day camps, summer camps, even just a walk in the park. It doesn't, you don't have to go big. You don't have to go for 90 days. You don't have to be in it. You can go sit by a tree, you can look at a flower, you can have a succulent in your room. I can't keep them alive, but maybe you can. Any, any sort of Access to that is a starting place.

And just could you explain again, why is that important? Why is that something that would be beneficial to somebody, especially if they're having a hard time?

There's a lot of really lengthy science behind it. But nature helps us feel better. We are. Humans are inherently a part of nature. And to see something that is alive, to see something that is thriving, to see something that is growing and producing oxygen, it just feels good from an aesthetic perspective, but also just, I mean, can send you some science about what happens in brains too. But it's. It is grounding for most people. The limits to that, I would say, are if you've experienced some sort of trauma in the outdoors, then maybe we don't want to go too extreme. Like, let's start with like an orchid, some sort of plant. Genetically, we are designed to thrive with access to nature.

And for people that are interested in. They're hearing you talk about wilderness and checking out trails, North Carolina, what would be the way they could find out more?

So our website is trailscarolina.com that's a good starting place. NATSAP is our accrediting body, national association for Therapeutic Schools and Programs. The Sky's the Limit Fund is a scholarship fund that we have recently partnered with. Their whole goal is scholarships for kids to go to wilderness. There's a lot of cool programs out there. Outward Bound is another one. It's not therapy, but get out, go backpacking. They've got programs in a couple of pretty large cities to get kids in the outdoors. Yeah, I think that that would probably be where I would start. Or just look at your local community for outdoor experiences, community centers, things of that nature.

And what if it's an adult that doesn't have a kid that they're thinking about that wants to explore this. This idea? What would be their best step, exploring.

It for themselves from a therapeutic perspective. There are adult programs that is more your speed. Maybe start with your own, with finding your own therapist. And if you say, I want somebody who's outdoorsy, depending on where you live, that might be accessible. And now we have the technology to work virtually. So even if that doesn't exist necessarily within your community, there are other communities, hopefully within your state, that there is somebody who could understand that. And that could look like you going on a hike and then coming back to therapy and talking about how that's worked for you or what you thought about or what was difficult about that. Again, challenge by choice. Know your limits and make sure that you're doing it safely. But yeah, I mean, there's, there are ways to make it happen.

Jayna, this is so great. Thank you so much. You have such a really amazing way to be able to explain how people can improve their mental health, and I really appreciate you taking the time.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Anytime. This has been a pleasure.

Thanks for listening to the do the Thing podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. But even more, we hope you'll be inspired to do the thing.

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