Episode 89 - Francine and Steve Turtz On Why Curiosity Are Key To Cultivating A Healthy Relationship

I do really believe 100% from every part of me that everyone has the capacity to be able to do the things that they want and not to be held back by the mental baggage that's in our head that we want to push through.

Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. In each episode, we get down and personal with people who go after the things they want to make all their wildest dreams come true. Join us as we unveil and dissect a formula for what it takes to do the thing. Here is your host, Stacy Lauren.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. This is your host, Stacy Lauren. So I love life and meeting really amazing people and getting to hear stories that inspire me, and I was really lucky the other day. I was talking to our guest, one of the guests that's on today, about starting a podcast, and we were sharing thoughts about that. And then through me talking to her about that, I learned that she has been married for 42 years. And I forget about all this other stuff. I need to talk to you about your marriage because, oh, my gosh, 42 years of marriage is definitely doing the thing. And so I asked her if she was willing to come on. And then I even was, well, what about your husband? Would he be open to coming on? And she said yes to both. And I'm just so thrilled to be able to talk to her and her husband about this amazing accomplishment of being married this long and having a happy marriage as well. So, yeah. So I'm so grateful to be able to spend the time with Francine and Steve. So I wanted to welcome Francine and Steve to the show. Hey, guys.

Hey. Thanks for inviting us. We're excited.

Yay. Oh, my gosh. So this is my first married do the Thing regarding marriage episode. So you guys are my very first guinea pigs with this. So I'm really excited.

Great.

So I'd love to just start off and have you just. And feel free to do. We could just do this however you want, but just feel free to just tell us your story.

Whose story? Hers or mine?

Because a relationship is two stories that come together. Yeah.

That's so beautiful. Yeah. How about we do that? How about you each kind of tell us your individual story and then we'll kind of talk about how you came together.

It's pretty close.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I think we have pretty unique story in that once we did come together, we were inseparable for the rest since that time. But getting up to that place was kind of humorous and challenging. Challenging. So we are Both from New York, and we met out in San Diego working for the same company. And so this company was a startup, and this was back in the late 70s, and even. Even that word really wasn't a word that was used then. It was a new company. And I joined the company, and I had moved from New York, and I was the fifth person to join the company. And there was a lot of potential. So we were moving along, and things were growing, and there was a second office opened. And one day the owner says, I'm going to be hiring a new person. He's from Xerox, and he has great sales background, and his name is Steve Tertz. Now, when I heard the name Steve Tertz, I hated him instantly. I hated his name. I. It was just this reaction. So he comes to work for the company, and there's a company meeting, and it's a Saturday, and he shows up in athletic clothes. And for me, that's just, oh, my God, this guy's gotta be kidding me. So there was just this constant, like, oh, this. This. I don't know, crazy, insane dislike of someone who.

No.

So he was deep and very friendly, and. And time goes on. And I get invited to.

Now, before that, I went down to your office.

Okay. So he comes down to my office, and he brings roses to all the women in the office. And I'm just, oh, my God, this.

Guy'S got to be kidding me.

I mean, just really crazy. Instead of saying, wow, isn't that nice that he. He actually brought a mother.

Thought it was nice.

So, yeah, so I went home and told my mother because my parents had relocated out here also. So she's like, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with you? I said, I don't know. I just. This guy's. I don't like this guy. So time moves on, and I'm invited to go on a little jaunt down to Rosarito beach and also the lobster houses. And I had never been at that point. The only problem was, was Steve and his girlfriend were going to be going, and this other couple. So I was the fifth wheel. So. So we drive along merrily, and copious amounts of drinking begin. And of course, I can keep up drinking, and everything's going well. And we go to the beach, Rosarito Beach Hotel. And the two women go to the beach. And I'm sitting at the table with Jeff and Steve, and Steve says to me, you know, Francine, I think you're a neat woman. And I then proceed to say to him, how dare you assume to know me. And you say, later on, for that one, everything was so crazy.

She was the Helen Reddy of her time. I am woman Hear me roar.

And probably, I don't know if you've ever heard of Helen Reddy, the singer, but years ago, right? So then we move on to the lobster houses in Newport. And back then, it was really, you know, really safe and long family tables. And we go there, and I excuse myself, and I go to the restroom, and I'm gone about half hour. And so Steve looks and says, you know, I think you better go check on Francine. And the two women come and check on me. And there I am, sprawled out in an unfinished bathroom. That's the end. That's it. So they help me. And the night goes on, and a week goes by, and the group is.

Going out for drinks, getting together.

So once you get sick in front of somebody, there is no way that you could ever be cool, that you could ever have an attitude. So all of that went away. And I thought to myself, you know, I think I'm gonna. I think I'm gonna talk to this guy. I'm gonna ask him my five key questions to find out if he has anything in common with me. And, I mean, I'm still a little insane here. I had. It was a philosophy question, a. An arts question, a literature question. So I start asking him questions, and he's. He's. He's saying, yeah, I've been to Lincoln center, and I love the ballet. And. And I had this question. I asked a specific book. My mind, if someone liked this book that you read, which was A Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Marquez. So I asked him about the book, and he's like, yes, I like that book very much. And I was just. Oh, my God, I was just so wrong about this guy. I mean, how. How could I have been so wrong? Here. Here he has all these things in common with me. Meanwhile, he's doing his Xerox sales training on me.

You ask questions, and you find out about what they want you to hear. So I found out more and more about the book. And as she told me more and more about the book, I was able to kind of add on to what she was telling me. And the other ones I did answer. So I did. I did go to Lincoln center, and I was involved in. Had done a lot of the things. But the Hundred Years of Solitude. I couldn't even get through 100 pages of solitude, let alone 100 years of solitude.

And me being in the mindset of, oh, there's no way that I'm going to do any pushback on him. So we're talking. The group moves on to another bar. There's dancing going on. In the meantime, Steve is secretly seeing one of my co workers, Melanie. And I would constantly say to Melanie, and meanwhile, she's secretly seeing him. So they're out dancing, and Steve turns and I'm sitting at the table, and Steve says to Melanie, you know, I think I'm going to go ask Francine to dance. So Melanie says, sure, sure. So he comes over and asks me to dance. And of course, I can't say no. So we go out to the dance floor, and the whole night it's rock and roll. And the music turns slow. And so we kind of look at each other, and he puts his arms around me, and there is a remembrance that is electric, it's actually physical for the both of electricity. And we know each other, and there's the sense of knowing from different times. I mean, it was really visceral. And then from that moment on, we were not apart. We went on. On three dates, and he asked me to marry him and got married six months later.

And when Francine says that, and it's not only what we come to believe is past lives together, we were actually both in our mother's womb at the same company in New York at the same time, because we're only a month apart. And our mothers did not know each other.

No, we were from different worlds.

But they do know that every time somebody had a baby shower at this building, they would all contribute to that person's baby shower. So there's more than a better chance that our mothers contributed to each of our baby showers before we were born.

So we were in utero together. Wow. You know, we come to find out we have very similar upbringings. We're the oldest. I was in an Italian family. He was in a Jewish family. We very, very close grandparents growing up with family on weekends. So real. A lot of similarities.

Yeah. And your uncle and my grandpa worked together, so.

Wow. So have you thought about. Have you thought about that beginning reaction that you had, even with his name and then when you met him for the first time and, like, why that was that, why that was so strong and then how your. Your connection was so strong?

I think it was because I knew what was coming, and I. There was that it was a sense of something's coming.

Well, she also probably knew that that name was going to probably be hers for the next however many years. So it's. Oh. So I Guess I need to settle in that. That's name for a pretty long time.

And then what do you think happened when you, you had gotten sick?

Which.

That's a great story. And then you, you then had that you started becoming curious about him and asked him those five key questions. Do you remember why you suddenly were able to open yourself? He saw you in a vulnerable state and then you wanted to get to know him or was there something else there?

I, I think I was so filled with embarrassment for having had all that reaction before. And there was. I was, you know, kind of brought to, to neutral from that. The, the kind of the, the. The embarrassment and shame about behaving that way. When I was cool, I was so cool.

I thought it was my chivalry coming out to making sure you were still alive in the car when you were passed out.

His attention was always on me to make sure I was. I was okay.

And then, Steve, when you had the sales approach in the beginning with the book and things like that, how did you finally break that down to then become who you are, where she was able to see you and not that show kind of thing?

First of all, it was a great challenge. And if you learn anything. And at that time, Xerox and IBM were the two major trainers of sales skills. So I was trained in what's called pss training professional sales skills. And no. Never met no until you got a yes. So for me, it was a real challenge initially to break down that no of who Francine was showing up as and then through that breaking down. I mean, I didn't never imagine that when we got on the dance floor that that would be my life partner. But I think that because I was so steeped in. This woman is not going to beat me in thinking that I'm this person who she thinks I am. I'm going to get past that. At least I have. Hey, I got you. And I got you to finally believe that I was not the guy who you thought I was.

So though we had this really kind of magical coming together and extraordinary way that we ended up staying together. From that point, our relationship has, has had all of the, the ups and downs and the journey relationship and the longevity of it and how we've gotten to stay together is that we always remember that that's our friend over there. He like, that's. That's my friend over there. And then plus a series of breakdowns that brought us to back to neutrality, back to creating something new from there and all on the way. So. So it's hard for our daughter who sees this here, sees our relationship, and kind of is looking for that magic. Meeting somebody on the first date and they're going to get married. So that's. That it tends to be a little. I mean, we would want that for her, but it can be limiting to think that that's the only way that.

That relationship and, and it's been worked at consistently.

I mean, it's.

You know, one of the things that we have always committed to is that, first of all, we never. And this is not just the saying we never go to sleep angry at each other. It's always resolved. We're not about holding. Holding any type of grudges against each other majority of the time. Now it does happen, but we really do want to create what partnership and friendship is on a daily basis. And I, as Francine will attest, I have a little bit of the 51st. I don't know if you ever saw the movie 50 First Dates with Adam Sandler. I have some of the. The same. I wake up every day like it's a brand new day. I mean, no matter what yesterday was, when Francine comes down the stairs for me, it's. I wouldn't say it's the first time I've seen her, but it's certainly something that I want to create that day. We want to be as a couple, and that's.

That's true. And we also think about our relationship as a garden. It takes tending.

We've had weeds, many, many weeds.

And it takes work and attention because where you put your attention grows. So this kind of nutshell where we met magically. But then it's pretty. It's pretty magical. What we have now, too.

And I, you know, I mean, to that point is I don't think we're satisfied with where we are today because where we are today will never survive if we don't continue to grow as. As a couple. And that's kind of what both of us look at and have to continue to remind each other. So one of the things that I think that we do a really good job of is when we're speaking in a tone or a negativity that doesn't either of us. What we. What we. What we try to do is, is that we listen to each other to make sure that the other person knows where. How it's landing for each. For us. And we try. And what we really want to do is recreate how that feels. So, you know, if I say something that Francine feels is in a tone Or a negativity, I step back to me and let me know how that lands. Because I want to be my best self as much as possible. So if Francine says whatever it may be and it hits me in the wrong way, I will actually stop in between in the conversation and say if you really want this to be an outcome, if you said this this way to me, it would actually land differently and I would actually want to do it because I'm here to satisfy and.

We'Re here to train each other. And a commitment that we have is. So we've done a lot of different work. Steve has been kicking and screaming all the way because I've kind of been the person, the seeker. And we've done many, many, many different bodies of work and been involved. And there's something called there's a well. And we don't let our well get filled up or a wall between us. So whatever needs to get addressed gets addressed pretty quickly. So that couple and partnership are present all the time.

And just a little diversion to that is our daughter in law comes from a very southern family and they keep things very tight in the family and really don't share feelings is off limits, basically. And so when, when her and our son got together, kind of very concerned about the way that we would approach things. Because if there was a breakdown, we call it breakdown, not fights. But if there's a breakdown, we would go right to it to sit everybody down and talk through what the breakdown was. And she was extremely uncomfortable with, you know, you guys are actually talking about it and you're resolving it. So now she coined the term that they're tersing. So they do terzing too. And basically what their commitment is. And through our relationship they've gotten to see that they can work through things right away. Because the more you hold it, the more it actually covers up everything else. And by the time you get to the place of a breakdown, you don't even know why you're arguing anymore.

And it feels so big that all the stuff that's in the way, it becomes this gigantic wall and resignation happens and despair happens and there's no hope to even get to the other side. That's the breakdown of relationship happens.

And truthfully, we're not afraid to talk about the times that have not been so great. I mean, we were the precursors to bankruptcy in the 80s. We were living high on the hog, living off credit. And basically one day my job got eliminated. And there we were having our cars driven away and our house taken away with Three kids. Okay. Living in a two bedroom apartment and having to start all over again. But because of that, it gave us the opportunity to recreate what we really wanted because. And at that point, truthfully, we couldn't afford to get divorced. I mean, we had three kids and basically we were looking at, well, how can we make this work? So. So I mean, some of those things that, that life circumstances happen have happened to us too. We've had, I mean, you know, when you look at a relationship, there's going to be challenges and people need to decide, is it a challenge that I'm willing to go through or like through it again and it'll be just with a different person.

Yeah. And who, like, what do you want to call your relationship? Like, your relationship actually has an entity into itself. So we are part of an organization called Couples Coaching Couples. And that particular organization is about extraordinary relationship in the world. And there's a whole series of distinctions and tools and community that come together and provide for really looking at what's possible, but really what's possible.

And we get to create out of it. We, we. Every quarter you get to create a declaration to who your couple is and who you want to live into. So this quarter is, we're in it together.

So for tertzing, what would you say that would be defined as. So in terms of like, if someone wanted to. You better buy the domain. Now, if someone wanted to do tertzing at home, is that the first step? Listening to each other? And then if they're not hearing it in the right way, then they're reframing how they want to hear it so then it lands better.

It's, it's, it's probably both. So when something is said and it just does not feel right, there's a lot of ways it could be handled. It could be handled by just a word, ouch, so that your partner knows, ooh, that's, that's something I said. Or it could be in, but it's created in, inside your couple. It could be a word like zucchini, so that it alerts the person to whatever, whatever's going on.

But I think it goes, I mean, for me, I think it's, for us it goes deeper than that. Is, do you have a back door? Or is this a relationship that you're committed to? And that's really kind of the first step to saying, am I in a committed relationship? That there are things that are going to happen that are sometimes either in or out of my control, but I'm committed to Having the freedom to say the things that I need to say and back, or that what I say is going to make that other person think less of me or leave.

And there's, of course, the caveat of abuse or addiction or any. Any like of those situations, but in just two people relating and so terzing, it is just really getting it out. And when something does not feel right in the space, say it. Say it right then and there. Don't wait. Don't wait to a couple days, because you'll forget or you won't want to say it. And you have to have courage. So it's kind of. It's kind of balls to the wall courage. Just you have to say things.

And sometimes I say, in my own case, it takes me a few hours. You know, it's not like it's. It's like I want my first react sometimes is to fight what Francine's saying as what's in my best interest. But as I look in who I have over there and the commitment that she has for me, it just shows up differently. And it makes a big difference in the way that I look at it. But the first reaction may not be the best reaction.

So Steve is really extraordinary in his ability to. To process and come back and not be committed to his point of view. It's really a special quality. And so we have a friend that declared Steve has different distinctions of no. So what that means is that there's generally always no first was. And now it's about 95% yes. And then there's just a little no, but before it was no first always. And it gets really wearing to have to know that you have to go up against a no first in order for them to come over to what you know is right.

But, you know, to get back to your original question, turching just means willing to sit down and go through it, no matter how painful it could be, no matter what the breakdown was, no matter who sees the other person being responsible or not responsible. It's just a matter of getting the air cleared so that it opens up the space to have a completion. Because once you complete, you get past it.

Yeah, because then it's. The energy's not getting stale and you're not getting into that eggshell mode. Because I think that's what happens. Right. People get upset, and maybe it's like a little thing and then a little thing and then a little thing, and then all of a sudden you're walking on eggshells. And so what I'm wondering and I don't know if you guys have thought about this, but we're doing it right now, is if there was like a framework for this, getting the, the air cleared out without going into that blaming and defensiveness and all that, is there some kind of. If you could almost put it on a worksheet, like, what would that look to be able to stay focused.

So really, the most elegant way that we've found is really inside of some of the distinctions from this organization. And it's called emptying the well. And it's a safe space. And you just have to be in a very surrendered place to be able to say whatever it is that's stopping.

You from being related.

So generally that takes you and the person who has something going on and then another person who is a neutral person who can kind of facilitate, facilitate and hold the space. Because sometimes if it's just the two of you, you can get into mischief. And it's the. This third entity which keeps things neutral and keeps things moving forward in the direction which is the goal of getting clear and complete.

I just love. I've done so much work, right. And I love authentic relating. That's something I've been following lately. And I have a lot of different modalities. And I've never heard of couples coaching couples. And I love this idea of emptying your well. And I just love that there's so many things out there, but it's just a matter of getting it to people so they can hear it. And so I just think this is so great that we're having this conversation because I haven't heard of it. I'm sure there's a lot of other people.

Oh, yeah, it's, it's. The organization has been around about 32 years.

Yeah, 32 years.

And it has about 175 couples. And sometimes even the word couple or the name couples coaching couples, people go, oh, what, what is that? Like, our reaction to was, what, oh, what's that? You know, we don't, we don't. You know. And then finally we got to understand what it was and got very involved and in all forms inside the relation, inside the organization. And the premise is that you're never alone. So it's your couple and another couple, and that forms a quartet. And that couple during a quarter is a stand for your relationship, or they are there to hear and hold what your couple's up to during a quarter. So that could be projects, it could be things you want to bring in or whatever it is that your couple's up to. So that couple is your. Your listening for. For your couple. Then there's also circles that get together regionally, and then those are. That's communities, too. And we are always looking for ways to get this out into the world because it's.

It's still maybe a podcast.

Yeah, well, that's true. That's true. So, yeah. So, I mean, of course there's a website and everything else that goes along with the organization, but we find that even though we had all these breakdowns, truly catastrophic life breakdowns, we kind of came to the tools on our own. And then, like, later joined CCC and saw, oh, my God, this is exactly what we did to get back to having relationship. So that. So that there was something. There was form and structure. We wish that we would have had the tools, you know, back. Back in the day. Yeah.

And I was wondering, Steve, when you said that every day is a new day, I think that's huge. How do you do that in the morning? How do you kind of clear out the other stuff so then you're looking at her and you're in this new day?

I don't think that there's a. I mean, I. It's not like I have a technology that I say, well, you know, I meditate when I wake up first thing in the morning, and I clear myself of everything. I just. I guess I go to sleep in a space that everything that has passed is passed. And when I wake up, it's new. So we have our routine. 99% of the time, I'm up before Francine. I come down and make the coffee, do my little stuff, get going on work, and then she comes downstairs and we just connect. I mean, the first thing we do is we say our declaration, which is right now, what we said. We do three ohms every day to just kind of clear the space and just. I don't have do A, do B, do C. It's just. It's just something that I have a gift to be able to clear with. I mean, very rarely do I wake up in the morning any kind of a sense of despair that may happen an hour later. But normally I wake up and it's. It's a. It's a clean slate.

Steve has an amazing capacity to really let the past go. And really, we always hear and want be present here, be present, be here now. He really does have that quality and capacity, and he's a great teacher for me.

And I really do use the mantra not to feel sorry for myself.

Oh, my gosh. In our Time, complete breakdown. I never knew that I was married to such a hero because this man never, ever felt sorry for himself and all the huge fails and just one step at a time, picked himself up by the boots and did anything to take care of his family. I mean, a quality of no envy, no jealousy, and not feeling sorry. It's rare because I certainly have those qualities.

And I do think you have some intentionality when you're waking up though, by doing that declaration together and you're doing the three ohms. I do think there is that intentionality because even just that, even though it sounds simple and it's probably automatic to you, which is why you don't think it's much, but it's huge thing to be able to start your day off with that every day.

True. I will say I do have envy. I tried to win the lottery last night and I didn't have any numbers, but nobody did win and it's not for 1.5 billion now.

I know, it's so crazy. And then I was wondering, could we talk for a little bit about. Let's talk to the people that have small kids and they're going through that, they're going through that timeframe of. Or we're talking to them in terms of your experience, but where you just got married and then all of a sudden you have three kids. Because now your kids are adults. And so. And I think sometimes when you're in that small kid mode, it's hard to get out of that trap. Right. Of like, oh my God, this is all that there is. And. And like that's where a lot of divorces then happen, I think. So I'm just kind of wondering how did you guys kind of manage that time?

So I guess we intrinsically always had a commitment to the relationship. And now with hindsight, we know that it is critical to spend time, at least on a weekly basis on spending time with your partner. If you can find time to even do all the things of living, you could take an hour every week to connect with your partner and you can have that be sacred. That that has to happen. Then if you have a. A community or if you have another couple that you would have stand for your relationship, that also adds to it too, because being alone as a couple in the midst of life, in these times, in these complex times, and on all the things that we're being bombarded with, relationship is really difficult if you don't have tools and structure to make sure that your relationship is thriving.

Yeah. And let's face it, There was no handbook for us either. I mean, we go. We especially. So more Francine than me wishes I can go back and do this, and I wish I could go back and do this. And then I look at the three kids that we have, and they're all extraordinary in my eyes. They're all extraordinary. They're all, you know, they're all doing what life is. But I think that one of the things that Francine points out is that we spend so much wasteful time and do not have constructive time for our relationship. And even if that's just as Francine said, coming down the stairs, or I said coming down the stairs every day and be it up, or when the kids leave or whatever it is, and just have some us time, because it's overwhelming with the we time that this. That this society has in our life. You're a guy, and you can sit down and watch three hours of football. You can certainly sit down for a half an hour and have a conversation about creating your relationship. I think most people today, and we were them, just check themself out. It's like, oh, I'm so tired. The kids just ran us ragged. We have three kids. We're driving them to right after that. We're doing this, we're doing that. Well, what time do you guys have for you?

I mean, you would never think of not brushing your teeth or whatever, you know, thing that you just would never not do every day. Your relationship has to have that level of. You would never not connect if it's weekly, even if it's a half hour a week, because things are so crazy. But it's that commitment that you mentioned, Stacy, that it's. It's intentional. It doesn't happen by magic. Relationship.

The thing that's great about. And again, I'm not selling the organization. And though I think it's extraordinary is we have couples that are in their 80s recreating their relationship. And we have a couple in their 20s with kids creating their relationship. And it's really cool to be at the stage we're at, and it's really cool to be at the stage that they're at if you have a commitment to what relationship could be.

Yeah, I love that you're able to see all sides of it, too, in terms of all the different relationships. That has to be amazing to be able to know that people are really just doing what they can to be able to keep that connection with each other. I'm also wondering. I love what you said with that conversation about creating relationships. So let's say someone only has that 30 minutes to an hour a week of that intentional time, in addition to doing the declaration in the morning. And then if they're going to do the three ohms or something, what would be like that half hour to an hour a week that you would do with your partner to create. To have that conversation about creating your relationship?

So it would be taking the time to acknowledge your partner for whatever it is that you would like to acknowledge them for. And it's not really a matter of sitting down and saying, thank you for making the coffee, thank you for car, but really taking something, thinking about them and taking what they did and letting them know what the impact of that action was for you, and just letting them know how important they are. And if you start the practice early in your relationship, it's not going to be hard to just keep. Keep it going, because it's going to be like a muscle. It's going to be a habit. And it is also something that can be developed once you understand how to do that and how to really let your partner know that you love them. Because everything gets put into an assumption. And we think, oh, they know that. They know that. But it really is about communicating and letting the partner how amazing they are once a week, at least.

Yeah. So, I mean, really. And it's part of. Again, it's part of this. But it's who you are for me and who I am for you. I mean, it's really sharing at a deeper level than, hey, thanks for making me coffee this morning. It's really more about sometimes, as Francine said, it's in the assumption that you say these things. But I will tell you that relationships grow with acknowledgement and gratitude. And gratitude. And people want to be acknowledged for the things who they are not. That's why I do it. So I enjoy cleaning as an example. I don't need Francine to tell me we're a great partnership when it comes to dinner parties. We love having dinner parties. So we just had, what, 10 people over, eight people over last weekend. But we both have our places in that partnership. Francine loves the cooking part. I love the cleaning part. I always have to be reminded he's.

Not allowed to clean while people are here.

Right. I'm not allowed to clean until people leave. But just the acknowledgement of who we are as a partnership. And because of that, other people get to see a possibility in their relationship.

That's right. So I think who we are is raising the consciousness of relationship in the world. And because we Become very present to comedians or the whole thing that's out in the world. Oh, the ball and chain and marriage sucks and all that kind of stuff. And it permeates society and it doesn't have to be that way. It can be extraordinary. When two people first come together, there's this fantasy and magic and things are spoken. And it's so beautiful. And really that process of who you are for me, who you are for me is my hero and you're my partner. And it's there, but then it gets forgotten. It just gets forgotten to be spoken.

And again, this is the man woman conversation, which I'm sure you probably have heard about. But once I get acknowledged as a hero, damn, I'm a hero. I mean, there. That's going to stop me from being a hero because I know that the person who loves me believes I'm a hero. So why wouldn't I want to keep on being petted on the head for being a hero?

And in our journey, one of the places where there was the breakdown was he was not a hero. He was to you, to me. And he. There was no place, no acknowledgement of who I was a hero. And so the breakdown just got bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah.

And how did you work through that?

I got to see who he was.

She got on her knees.

I really woke up one day and saw that this man was willing to risk anything to take care of his family and who I had been in regards to the process. I mean, I was such. I betrayed him so much because I spoke so badly about him to family and friends. I had the committee. It was all his fault. So I took responsibility about my part in the breakdown because during. It wasn't my fault. It was his fault totally. So that to answer your question, it was because I saw my part in it and was able to ask for forgiveness and get. Get back to our relationship.

Well, I think I'm so glad that you brought this up because. And I'm. I'm touched by your vulnerability with, with sharing the story because I think a lot of people can be in that mode. And then it could lead to divorce. If you're not able to do the right. If you're not able to kind of get to where you were and then just to show this witness of your marriage and how what a beautiful evolvement it's been over the years, I think it shows that you can get through that space with the right growth, communication and. And commitment to each other. So I'm just kind of curious. How did you Walk through that while things were hard. And you have the. I love the way you worded that. The committee around you that's.

Oh, yeah, Steve, the itty bitty shitty committee.

Well, it's both in your head, like, it's. Your mind's telling you this and then you have literally everyone around you because they're supporting you. How did you really, like, be able to own the part that you were playing in it?

I saw who I was being and it was almost like an awakening that happened. And I mean, you could call it like a spiritual awakening, but I just got to see who I was in the matter of it all happening. And so we were never really enemies. And on Steve's part, he did not have. So the difference is he didn't have all of the stuff that I had blame me at all. So it was. It was really over here. So now I would imagine that when two people have stuff going on and that person's right and that person's right, that's even more of a problem. So since it was only like over here in me owning stuff, I mean, would you say that's true? I mean, you didn't. He had no. It was just.

Well, I was also checked out. I mean, I. Because I was not acknowledged and there was nowhere for me to go to win, I just basically checked myself out and just did what I needed to do. I mean, I had a kid, I had a wife and three kids, and I just had to do what I had to do. Right. I mean, it wasn't like I had this juicy opportunity to connect. It was just what. I'm not going to lose at this game. I've. I grew up playing sports. I played in college and it was like, you know what? I'm just not going to lose at this game. I've been knocked down before. I'm going to get up and I'm going to do whatever I need to do.

And I mean, you have. You got to see. There was no joy present. There was. I mean, and he was in this. This flatland of just moving forward. And it's really miraculous that we actually got out of it, really.

You're speaking to. I mean, so many people are in that situation. I think it's so encouraging and it can give people hope to see that with both people committed to make a change, it can really kind of transform things.

That is the key. Two people have to have to want it and really be looking for something bigger than themselves, whether it's keeping the family together or knowing what's possible. When their relationship was good or whatever that is. It is two people, one person can't do it.

Well, also, also knowing that if you don't learn the lesson here, you're going to have to learn a lesson again. And we have, we, we know couples that got divorced that actually worked it out, and they're now best friends. I mean, they're not a couple when it comes to relationship any longer. But when it comes to their kids or it comes to their, their family, they participate still as, as family and relationships. And I can think of three or four of our friends, you know, but they got to, they were willing to work through and then realize that they. Not a match doesn't mean that you have to. Everybody's a good match for each other. But also people need to take a look at and see that if they're not willing to work at it today, they're going to work at it tomorrow. So why not work at it somebody? Because quite frankly, most people, as Francine got together because they had that, that commitment to relationship, and then somewhere down the line, it got lost.

And Francine, I'm wondering where. What happened with this? You mentioned not allowed to clean while people are here. And I totally, I think Steve mentioned that, and I totally know what you're saying with that. And so what I'm wondering is, how did you communicate that to him that you didn't like him doing that or like what? Tell me more about that.

So it's request. It's a request. Would you please not clean while people are eating? I want you to be part of the conversation. So it wasn't took one time. It took like a lot of times and even many, many times. And even now he has the impulse. He just can't, you know, can't be. Be sitting when things. So it takes a me not getting angry, me not making him wrong because I know it's. He does it because it's for the greater good. He's doing it. So it's patience and it's constantly request. So there's something we do is request and promises. So I will make a request and then he can promise to do the request or counter with something else. And it's really what relationship is based on requests and promises. And then you make new promises.

Yeah. So as an example, and this is kind of to that an example of this week with all the amount of guests we had, knowing how long it would take to get everything done at the end of, at the end of dinner, when everybody left, whatever time that may be. Francine requested that I didn't clean up. And I counted her offer by saying, listen, all I want to do is put the dishes on the counter. I do not, I will not clean, but I need to have them set up so that I'm ready to go when I'm ready to go. And that was our promises and requests and my counter. And she accepted it. Just when she's cooking, she's involved in the kitchen. I'm involved with all the guests. So I mean, so that's just a small taste of it.

And things that really can't take place when there's big, big breakdowns inside a couple.

So that kind of talk about compromise and.

Oh, so compromise and cooperation. So that, that's also kind of an element in couple. If you're compromising, there's going to be a pay me back at some point. Well, I compromised about this. You owe me. But if you come from the sense of cooperating together about something, that sense of owing and keeping score kind of, kind of dissipates. Now it's a model and it's not, it's not something that's a perfect thing. But these are things to kind of keep in mind and, and, and work.

Yeah. I mean, so take a look at when you're answering your partner or even your kids or friends. Or friends. Is it, is it a compromise? So if you're compromising, 99% of the time you're expecting to get something back or call somebody on what you did for them. But when you cooperate on it, there's usually not a, having a, a payback, a payback to compromise. It's like, it doesn't have to be exactly what you guys wanted to do. If you compromise, you know you're going to have this book and that you're going to hand her the book and go, guess what? I did these 17 things, now I'm going out with the boys, drinking tonight or whatever, whatever that is. That's, that doesn't mean you can't go out and do what you want to do. But that's something that now she needs to figure out, what are the 17 things that I did for him? So that it's like a he said, she said, and if you can kind of break down that wall, it gives you the opportunity to have a conversation about it.

And another thing is to have the question, look at the well being of your couple. What does that really mean? What is the well being of my relationship? And what are the components that make up the well being and all the habits the thought habits, the physical habits. So there's just ways of creating that are ongoing and ever, ever moving. So the relationship is never static.

And I know this is going to get out to people, so I will throw this out there. Prince. So we love being with other couples. I mean, in a way of just giving that we have been able and been blessed to have as couple. And we're great coaches and we love coaching couples.

Yeah.

You're showing me what's coming to my mind while you guys are talking. It's so funny because you look at someone that's a bodybuilder and you don't for a minute think, oh, they're lucky. They have these great muscles. You know that they've worked hard to get that body because it's, that's when you see them, you know that they can't just come out looking like that. And so people might hear about your marriage and you being married 40 plus years and go, oh, you guys are so lucky. But that you guys are showing. This is not luck. This is an intentional process that both.

Have worked through, say, with a bodybuilder. We, we continually work at the muscle. And guess what? We have failure. And we have, we have muscle failure regularly. But, but we also remember that this is what our commitment is to each other and to our family and to our kids. Because truthfully, I want my children and their children and their children and their children to have great relationships. And if we can be a model for some of that, it makes a big difference in the world.

And so we talked about with the little kids and how to work that. And I think that we even. I love the expectation of just, even the morning we talked about declaration and the practice.

Develop practices for your couple that connect you. And they could be really 30 seconds.

So let me bring back one more thing for the kids. A lot of the couples that have kids in our organization have a family declaration. They start their day with a family declaration with the kids involved and engaged, and they create that with the kids to what's our quarter going to look like for a declaration for our family?

So who we are as a family, we're fun, we're whatever it could be.

And then what about when you get into the teenage time? So a teenage time, like things change, right? Because now the kids aren't pulling on your every knee. They might be ignoring you now, depending on who your teenagers are. And so you'll have more time to be able to spend together. Do you have anything that you did during that time? Do you think or that might have helped you because that's also can be isolating because you've gone from having them need you so much for that attention. And then all of a sudden that shifts. I'm just thinking of these transitions that happen during different ages that can affect you personally. And then the couple then has to adapt to that transition.

So I think that the umbrella is always communication and the commitment to communicating as best as possible in all forms and especially with teenagers and to try your best. Because of course there's going to be.

Well, they try to, you know, they try to go the good cop, bad cop. And I think you just need to take a look at what's your commitment to the kids that you're raising and do the best that you can. If they go to me with a no and they go to Francine with a yes, we need to figure out why one was a yes and one was a no. Or else all of a sudden we become enemies because they. They've created that as. As kind of a of a breakdown in our relationship. So. And I'm not saying, listen, we did not do it at all perfectly. We were just so blessed. As I said now three kids that turned out the way they turned out because you know, when we take a look at is we were. We had our own things going on. We had absentee, I was traveling. I mean, all the things that any normal family has. We were just fortunate that the kids really saw that relationship was a bigger opportunity for them in their life than getting involved in some of the things that they could have got involved in.

And I think to answer your question about the different stages, so you have your newlywed stage and the newness. Then you have the children's stage and teenage and then empty nest. And then also the end of it when one of you leaves or at that point is if the relationship is this garden that's going to be cultivated throughout your lifetime, then that will always be there, no matter what's happening in all the other places. Because there's. There's all different methods of parenting and there's all different all of that. But the relationship itself has to have its own sacred place that's carries throughout all the phases. And it. And it. It's like your centering place.

And then the communication within the relationship is the number one thing.

That's it.

And then what about when the we. You kind of mentioned the emptiness, but could we talk about that too? When. Because that's another time. I think a lot of divorces happen is when the kids get out of the house. And I think a lot of times it's because they haven't been doing all the stuff you've been saying throughout the time. And then all of a sudden, they're looking at each other going, now what? So how would you. If they haven't been doing the work, and then all of a sudden they're in that situation, what do you think would be good? And how did you guys handle that?

Well, I think that it would be such a great time for recreation and really just going back and asking and talking about the questions of, like, how did you came together? Like, what's next? What. What do I want? What do you want? And having it be this amazing creation and this extraordinary way of, like, what's the next part of life? And then to be reminded about it because it's. It's hard to manifest it on your own. And if you. But. But if you have, like, someone that's pushing you along and letting you know that this is possible, what's an interest?

So I'll give you an example. So one of the things that I think it's maybe more for me than for Francine is at some point, I would love to live us, not full time, but move, go to Italy and live there for a while and just use it kind of as our. Our stand, you know, our grounds. We've been there a few times, and just as part of doing something and living there and the culture and being able to travel throughout Europe and doing some of those things. So the other day, we were. I think we were flying home. I had a conference in Clearwater, and I said, hey, you know, if we're really serious about doing something, let's sign up for an Italian class. Let's learn Italian. So we're. We're going to be signing up for an Italian class.

Yeah. So it's really a matter of creating together something new, completely new.

You only grow apart because you grow apart. And if you make it. If you make it that. That is the end, then that's the end. But if you grew apart, because you grew apart, but that's not where you want to head. Always an opportunity to recreate, no matter where things are, unless, as Francine said, somebody's abusive or there's some other things that are going on, people are going to seek out other things because they're not happy where they're. Where they're at. So where they're at, if they're not happy where they're at, it's only because they haven't Worked at, where they need, where they want to go.

And really first it's here because it's an inside job first. You have to take care of your own stuff and get as clear as you can so you're most available. And so I'm talking in model ways, right. But it's about the commitment to what's possible.

And I think that if you. So one of the things that I think is really valuable, especially if you're in other relationships with other friends or whoever it may be, is to get their perspective of who you are as a couple. Because I think sometimes you live in that you're not. You're not that couple that you think that you are. But in the world, you're perceived as the couple that you. That. That other people perceive you in a different way. Right. So it's like, oh, man, we really love being with that couple because they're so juicy about what they do. And in their life, when the doors are closed, they may not feel that way about each other. So it's always great to get an observation of who you are as a couple and then ask other people, what do you do for excitement? Like, we have friends that, that he's walking across and they're doing it. Even though she's not going, she's committed to helping him to get to do what he wants to do. So just those kind of things that you get to hear and kind of inspires you. Because if you don't, it becomes. It dies. I mean, it's like anything else. It just dies. You know, if you're not watering it, if you're not fertilizing it. Francine said, kind of like your garden, if it didn't rain, you better water your plant. So if you don't water your go out there one day and they're all going to be shriveled up. Well, so is your relationship.

And what would you say to the people that they're living. They're living like roommates right now, and they're just sort of getting by in their relationship. And maybe one person isn't as excited about growing or doesn't understand the reason. What would you think would be a good first step for those people?

I would start by asking them, are you. Are you guys in a committed relationship? Are you serious about having. And if they're not, that's what they. That's the first thing they need to work out. Because if there's not a commitment to relationship, then that's a difficult thing to get past.

Maybe they don't know that it's possible to live differently because their resignation has really kind of set in. Like, they don't know that if they could. They don't know that they could live differently.

You know, and like you said, just maybe this conversation inspires them to look at something differently.

We really don't think of. Well, I mean, if we wanted to get fit, we would hire a coach. You would want somebody to be a coach for your relationship. Now, there's many different kinds, and there's many different ways to do that, but it's the desire to want something different. And that's the first question. Do you want to live differently? What would be possible? Wouldn't it be lovely if. What do you think? Like, it's those. Curiosity is really the key word for everything. Keeping curious in your relationship, in your life, about yourself, about the world, not knowing the answers.

With technology today, just to give you a really simple. We're with a bunch of couples this past weekend, and one of the couples is in a fairly new relationship, and he asked me if I knew about this app that's called pairing something. Pairing. And basically what it is, is it's on your phone, and every day you wake up and it starts a conversation to who your partner is and who you are, and it kind of gets you into that conversation of things that you didn't know, even though you could have been together for 40 years.

So it's desire, curiosity, and exploration. Exploration, creativity. But see, a lot of times couples don't know that. They don't know what's possible. They may have other friends that live the same way they do. So it's. It's like if you. You know how it is, like, you raise your hand to the universe and stuff starts coming in in all different ways. Just like with. With. With your podcast and what you're up to, Stacy, what. All the things that have come your way, it's. It's really wonderful.

It gets a little bit tiring when all you talk about is how's the weather? Especially when you live in San Diego, and that's where people are thrown to. It's. You know, I don't really want to talk about the weather. It's not. It's great. And, you know, I don't talk about how the Chargers did or the Padres. I mean, not that I'm not interested in all that stuff, but it's not growing my relationship. Intimacy is really the intimacy of. In our relationship.

Yeah.

And I think you guys also brought up a really good point, because I think a lot of people will be struggling and they'll think to go to a marriage. Marriage counselor. And then it doesn't work. And then they're, well, we better get divorced instead. There's all these other opportunities for people to find the right person that can maybe get them the right way. And I, I just think that's interesting. I hadn't considered that before. They might be thinking that they're doing the work by seeing a marriage counselor, but that just might not be the right fit for them.

And everything else. There's good therapists and there's bad therapists. I mean, we have friends that went to therapy and what, how they explained it was they'd go to therapy, they'd say that, that, that, that they, they'd go the week and then the band aid would be ripped off the next week, and it would be like the same thing over and over again with, with no clearing, no healing. And, and that gets multiplied by many people's experience. So then they think, well, we got to get divorced. There's. There's just no possibility here.

And again, maybe this is the wrong word, but I would say if you're going to somebody to fix something, it's not going to work. It's not about fixing. It's really about how do you want to grow as a couple. And if you're going there to say, you know, do A, do B, do C, that may work for somebody, but it's not going to work for everybody.

Tips. Yeah.

Okay, you guys have one piece of advice for the listeners on how to do the thing in terms of marriage. What would be your advice?

Always remember you're not sleeping with enemy. What would you say?

I would say that it takes the muscle to be developed. Just like anything else you're trying to develop, you're trying to learn a language skill. You got to practice language. If you want to be a great athlete or an athlete, you got to practice. If you want to weight lift, you got to practice. Everything you do takes practice. And guess what? There's times where there's failure in your practice.

But don't give up and develop those practices that make your heart soar so good.

I hope you guys are coaching people. You said you are, right. Can we share how they can learn about you and be able to help them?

Absolutely.

I mean, there's an organization called couplescoachingcouples.org they can get on their website. They can see what couplescoachingcoachcouples.org is. Anybody who's interested in reaching out to Francine and I, Stacy, they can go through you. We'd be more than happy. We're always looking for more couples and more friends. And it doesn't have to be a couple. It could be anybody. One of the things that we are hungry for is relationships and community. So if anybody's interested to come play, we're open.

So cool. Thank you so much for doing this with me. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for giving us the opportunity to share. I mean, that's really a treat.

Thanks for listening to the do the Thing podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. But even more, we hope you'll be inspired to do the Thing. Do you have a burning question on Doing the Thing that you'd like answered? How about an inspiring do the Thing story of your own that you'd like to share? We'd love to hear all about it. Just leave us a voice message at do the Thing or email us at hello, do the Thing podcast dot com.