AMA | Nearing Retirement with Roger Whitney

Everyone, welcome to the New Retirement AMA Nearing retirement. We're really excited to have everyone tonight. We're going to do some brief introductions. We're going to talk about what's new at New Retirement like we always do. And then we are going to talk with our guest host, Roger Whitney and ask him a few questions and then we'll open it up for live questions. And when we do that, you can either kind of tune in live and we'll kind of of let you talk or you can ask your question in chat and we'll also respond to those. So it will be sort of first come, first serve. I think you can vote questions up if you put them in the questions area, not the chat panel, so the questions and answer panel. And you know, we'll stay here for an hour and answer as many questions as we possibly can. Steve is the founder of New Retirement and he's going to give a little overview of the company.

Sure, yeah. So just quick two minutes. For people who aren't completely up to speed, but you know, we're providing do it yourself retirement planning and financial planning for anyone. And you know, what's different is our platform is completely holistic and we're independent. We've, you know, we're aligned with our users, we're paid by our users, we're paid by our subscribers. We're also trying to do this in a super low cost way so that we can make it accessible to anybody. So our vision is that eventually potentially tens of millions of people will use this around the world to think through strategic plans for their money and really understand what their levers are. Last bit, our Facebook group is blowing up. It's over 4,200 people now. We've been signing up 500 to 1,000 people a month and seeing awesome conversations out there, people learning with each other. So it's a great place to, you know, just engage. It's a, you know, it's a solicitation free zone. So we're always watching, you know, when are people joining and just trying to promote their stuff. It's really just like learn from each other. See who from. Learn from people who have gone ahead of you that are like already retired. What are they doing? That could be money, that could be travel, that could be like being intentional or whatever it is in your life. But there's some really good stuff happening in that community right now.

Cool. And just for everyone. I'm Michelle, I run the communities, I do all the demos and run services for new retirement. I'm going to be Moderating tonight. So I do hope you'll join us. I saw chat about if we can do a demo of the tool. I do those demos every two weeks, so we're not going to do that tonight. But we certainly do it on a regular basis and I hope you'll join me for those sessions. You can find that on live events on our website. Right now, I really want to introduce our guest host for tonight. This is a friend of New Retirement, Roger Whitney. He has a podcast where he talks about retirement called Retirement Answerman and he is the founder of a club called Rock Retirement Club where he works with people like yourselves who are nearing retirement and talk about the financials and all the other things that surround retirement that aren't financial, like the transition and what you do with your time. So I did want to just talk a little bit about the club because we do have a kind of partnership with Rock Retirement Club and we just really want to be transparent about that. So you will see as part of our communities as you join our Facebook group on our website, you can join our Facebook group for free and that's totally hosted by New Retirement. But we also link to Rock Retirement Club because we like to promote and support other companies that have similar values and interests as we do. In this case, it's to promote financial education. So without further ado, I'm going to turn things over to Roger to just give a little hello.

Hey, how are you doing? It's exciting to be here. I just in terms of the club, it's about a member, about 500. We have an on demand course on how to create your retirement plan and we do it. In fact, I'm about to do a live session in a couple hours on how to figure out long term care. So it's a what I love about New Retirement and one reason why we partnered with them to have the tool as part of the club is we both take the same philosophical stance of it's a safe place where there's never solicitation, like in the Facebook group for New Retirement. It's the same way in the club and it's hard to find those safe places where you can have adult conversations. So I'm excited to be part of New Retirement in that way and also excited to be here.

Well, so Roger spends a lot of time on his podcast and in his club and in his financial practice as a CFP answering questions about retirement. So before we open things up for all of your questions and the live questions, I thought that I would ask him a few questions. To get us started. So, Roger, if I'm thinking about retirement, when should I start creating a plan?

I'm going to be a little odd here. I don't think you need to create a retirement plan. What you need to create is a roadmap that you can actually work off of. I think of a retirement plan as this memorialized document that so many planners create. And I was classically trained as a financial planner and that was how we were taught to do it. Modern retirement is much more of an iterative process because we don't have pensions. You're always going to have decisions to make. So it's much more about having a living document. So when should you create that? Well, the first moment that you start to see, like you feel like you see the light at the end of the tunnel, that's when you want to start creating a framework of what you think you want out of retirement in terms of your needs, wants and wishes and putting some numbers to those and then organizing your. You know, you're basically going to pay for retirement with three sources. Your financial capital, your human capital, work, and your social capital, pension, and Social Security. You really want to have all those organized as soon as you start to think that's on the horizon. And new retirement calculator is a great way to do that. And then you can get into a rhythm of constantly making little adjustments along the way, which is really going to be the key. So I wouldn't think about a plan. I would think about having a framework to have these little discussions. Because you're never going to stop iterating on it. Cause you really won't be able to figure out in one just memorialized document.

Yeah.

All right. So you're talking to people all the time about what they should be thinking about. And everybody is always thinking about I need to save X amount of money or I want to retire at this certain date. But there are so many other factors that weigh into what you need to be thinking about and interdependencies that happen around that retirement date. So what do you recommend people to think about that are common things that people in your practice forget?

The most common thing I think that people forget, and I think I would include planners in here, is that retirement planning is very unlike accumulation in not just in the investment management, but in how you plan cash flows. And what I see most often is that when people are trying to forecast what their retirement is going to be, usually they'll look at it in a linear approach, meaning I need $100,000 to live in retirement and be happy. And so they'll do their plan, whether it's in the new new retirement plus calculator or in a spreadsheet. And they'll assume they need $100,000 and then they'll just plan that that will inflate over time and they'll just think of their life as linear that way. And that's very inaccurate. And it's actually a little bit dangerous because if you create a plan that can accomplish that, that is feasible, what will likely happen is you'll get to be 75, 80 and realize that, oh, wow, I'm going to have too much money, I'm not spending this much. And you'll start to say you start to have those feelings. I could have done this earlier. So probably the most often thing I see that people forget is to think about seasons of life in terms of go go years and slow go years and no go years where your spending goes like this and then it moderates and then it goes like this and maybe it moderates a little bit more. And if you plan that way with a calculator, you'll find you may be able to front load more go go in the early part of retirement, which is the time that most people really want to maximize. They're still healthy, they still have energy, they're just out of work, they're ready to go do something. And planning in a linear approach is a really dangerous thing that we don't even realize we're doing.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's such a great point. I work with our customers in the retirement planner and one of the things you can do is you can add expenses for different years and it's always really interesting and reminding people that they need to think about, well, what happens when you want to take a vacation every three years for your family reunion or you want to buy a car every so many years. It's not always the same expense every year. You really have to think about those one off milestones that come up every now and then.

Because essentially when you're making a retirement plan, you're making this long term cash flow model, right? And normally when we think of it, we think of 4% rules or a set amount every year. But in the cash flow models that we create, we chart them out and we create a graph and it looks like this, it's all over the place. So when you're planning to pay for that, you have to plan for that sequencing because that helps you dial in your spending plan and also figure out what's really possible and what isn't. So that's why tools like this and true education, that's beyond just simply investment management so important because you don't get that normally.

Yeah. All right. So kind of along those lines, as we're thinking about finances and the dollars and maybe it's not dollars, I don't know. In terms of having a benchmark of something that you can kind of plan for or feel like you've reached a goal of some sort, that gives you a little comfort that you're ready to take that plunge. Do you have any benchmarks or goal posts that you like to use?

We really don't. We really don't. You know, some normal benchmarks are like 25 times, you know, having savings, 25 times what you think you're going to need to spend or paying off the house. And I think those are wonderful ones to shoot for because what ends up happening, I think in planning is if you're in your 30s or 40s and you really don't have any concept of retirement, it's not that helpful for you to think of, I need to hit this to retire because it doesn't really mean anything to you. It's so far away. But as you get closer. So for that group, really what all you need to focus on is how do I be a good steward and accumulate wealth that I can figure out what to do with later on. And that will save you from trying to make guesses on something you have no clue about anyway. And it will help you refocus on what can I do in this six months or in this year? And then once you start to flip towards again seeing that light at the end of the tunnel, then you can start planning out because it's not going to be a number. I talked to someone today and they're retiring at 51. They're not wealthy, but what they're doing is he's leaving his full time job. He's going to work half time because his job is killing him at 51. His wife likes her job, she's going to work to 65. And so they're thinking of this as if he's retiring, but they're not. They're just right sizing their life to the kind of life they want to live. And in reality, their withdrawal rate is going to be about 0.8% for about 10 years and then slowly creep up. And that doesn't get captured in benchmarks. Go ahead.

Yeah, sorry. On that topic, that's related to do you. I see a lot of People that are like unsure should they, you know, they're very focused on this retirement date and like when's the right date? And then they. Many people delay and then they have the one more year syndrome. Do you have like, what do you see for people kind of testing whether or not it's they can transition into this or kind of easing into it versus kind of all or nothing.

That's a really good point because it's a hard decision, right, to retire, typically one you're set in your rhythm that you've been doing for decades. So it's just comfortable, right? Whether you hate it or not, it is comfortable. It's what you know. And usually people are quitting near the top of their career and near their year where they have the most income they've ever had in their life. That's hard by itself.

Hard to walk away from that for sure.

Right. And so a good way to test it. That's why I personally am a fan of something I call pre tirement where we think of retirement as binary, like a light switch on and off, but in reality it's more like a dimmer switch. And especially nowadays if you can create a plan to negotiate. And Covid has been. This has been one of the big upsides of COVID One of the few is that people are used to working remotely. Companies are much more used to it. That's gotten people some life is to negotiate working from home or working halftime, even if you're willing to take less income or even leaving the company and coming back and consulting. I have a lot of people that do that partly for the money. But I think like you're saying, Steve, this sort of the training wheels, you feel internally, you feel like you could dial it up again if you had to.

Right.

And I think we have more options to explore that than we've ever had.

For sure. It'll be interesting to see if more people actually take advantage of this idea and maybe push up their retirement date. So say, okay, I was thinking about retiring in five years. Maybe I can make a go part time now and see what happens.

Oh, a lot of people doing that when we early in the club. The club is about two and a half years old. Early in the club history. We had about six months in. We had a member I was having a chat with privately. And what he said, he said, roger, this has been so awesome because I want to be a full time RVer. And we were sort of on the brink of doing it or not, we weren't sure. But then I met so and so. And they've been doing it for four years and we've had conversations and they're a lot like us. And, and so I think one thing you can do from a confidence standpoint is be around people that are already doing it well because you're going to realize they're not that different than you. I think that's really helpful.

On that note, one of our attendees here is saying that that's what they're doing. They went to 80% this year and then next year they're going to go to 60%. So that's Patricia was just chatting us. So.

Patricia, one thing with that is that also and I would be interested actually to talk with you or hear your comments on this is one thing to help you as you get there is to start to create boundaries between work and life, which is really hard for almost all of us, including me. Because once you create like if you're working 80 or 60%, if you could then can create boundaries of hey, I turn off, I've given my 60% now I'm going to go pursue this. And I think we have some questions on the non financial stuff. This gives you mental freedom to actually go figure out what your life is going to be like because that's a scary thing too. Good off on Friday. So tomorrow is your day. Don't look at your phone.

Yeah, I think that's a perfect transition into some of the other non financial things. We talked about easing in from like a work perspective. But what about the non work related things? Right. How, how else are you thinking about filling your time or you know, how you find yourself worth or kind of manage that transition? What sort of things should you be thinking about?

Yeah, and this was not by, by design but literally next month we're doing an entire month on the retirement answer man show about building a non financial plan. So good question. We didn't even set that up. Building a non financial plan is like if you Google retirement, 99% of what you're going to see is about investment management or tactical Social Security strategies and everything else. Almost nothing is going to be about the non financial stuff and the non financial stuff. Money is important for sure, but the non financial stuff is the stuff that really can create an amazing retirement or ruin one. Because if you think about what's happening when you retire, some of the things you need to focus on, one is the boundaries so you can start to build a life outside of work before you leave work. Because the way you don't want to retire a dangerous Way to retire might be a good way to say it is you don't want to be running away from a pain, right? Just get me, just make it stop. Because then what will happen is you'll take away the pain and you'll just be like, okay, now what? And you're going to have to go through some detox and figure it out. It's a more successful retirement I think financially too actually is if you slowly start to create something, whether it's a vision or because you've created boundaries, you create something that you're starting that's pulling you towards leaving full time work. And the areas that you need to look at non financially obviously going to be your identity. You're not vice president of so and so, right? You're not Mr. Stephen Chid, CEO, you're just Steve, you know, the electric mountain biker. All your work friends are gone. If you've traveled for a living, which I know a lot of people do, not so much anymore I guess. But who are you call to go have a beer? That's hard for some people. And then what are you going to do when you get up? And then you have the purpose and the identity and then you have the health and the rhythm. If you think of work in general, even all the way through school you had this rhythm, right? You went to school, you went to work, you had assignments, you achieved the assignments, you got a reward. And then that cycle we've been in for decades and that goes away. So you're going to have to figure out how you create your own rhythm. And some people may have one of these totally done, but then they have this one over here they got to deal with. So when you're dealing with a non financial plan, it's less of a congruent thing and it's more of a menu of which one am I really weak in? And then go focus there.

I think it's really important that people have something to quote unquote, retire to or something they're doing next and in all our lives, right, it's like, okay, I'm trying to graduate high school, graduate college, whatever, get my first job, make some more money, have a family, blah blah blah. And as you go, as you get financially independent, some people do get depressed because they're like, all right, they haven't thought about what they're working towards. And I think the one truth about people, about how they can get satisfaction or is essentially have purpose and a purpose that's bigger than themselves doing something that they find important and has a Cause so if you don't have that, it's definitely worth thinking about before you say, okay, I'm going to just be completely free and I can play golf or whatever all day long.

Yeah.

Well, go ahead, Michelle.

I was going to say, if you're not really sure, like, we see in our, like, in our Facebook group, we were talking about, like, show a picture of your retirement. We got all these really cool different scenarios, like, I'm on a road trip, I'm in my garden, I'm riding horses, riding bikes, you know, painting, all sorts of different hobbies. So if you're not really sure, joining these communities, like, you know, we both host, it really lets you kind of explore what other people are doing and get ideas of new things you can learn.

That was very cool.

I flipped through all those photos. It was amazing.

It is very cool to see what people. We have a lady at our club who does balloon animals and she volunteers. That's like her passion. And she'll be on a meetup like this, and we'll see her. She'll be in a canoe or kayak on a stream with her phone right there. But I think the one key here too is on this purpose thing is some people just want to chill. So I think sometimes when we talk about purpose, we talk a little grandiose sometimes. And it's okay just to want to be a great grandma or to, you know, it doesn't have to be some big thing. It just has to be something that you get excited about every day.

Well, I think it's also people you can be like, hey, my purpose is I'm going to take six months and chill out and just like, ride my mountain bike around for, for a while. And that's all I want to do. And I don't want to. I don't want to think about other things because we do spend our whole lives, like always thinking about the next thing.

Yeah, yeah. And you'll go through some detox, like Patricia said, is that on Friday she said she feels a little lost. You will go through detox of feeling uncomfortable because you feel you're supposed to be doing.

So.

I'll ask the last question about your number one tip. And Steve, I'm going to ask you next, but Roger, you're first of what your number one tip is for pre retirees.

Focus on the big rocks. The biggest issue I see with retirement planning, either if you're doing it on your own, but even if a professional is involved, is it's, it's so overwhelming that it's very easy to focus on things that likely won't have significant impact in your life. And two things happen if you don't focus on the big rocks. I'll mention real briefly, but the two things that can happen if you don't focus on the big rocks. Number one is you just get overwhelmed by all the rocks in the stream and you don't know what to do, so you just hand it over and let somebody take it over, just not address it. Or two, you run the risk of focusing on something that's really not that important and it's going to distract you from other things. So the big rocks, knowing your vision of what you want to create in retirement and then putting that to numbers and being expansive in that vision, not, not reasonable to begin with. So then create a reasonable plan or a feasible plan and then figure out how to make it resilient by mapping out how you're actually going to pay for it, at least in the near term. Then you can get to all the fancy strategies, or I call optimization, AKA the bling of financial planning. So my big tip is this isn't that difficult. Don't get distracted by almost all the talk. Focus on the big things, your vision, your financial cash flow, to make it resilient. You do that, you're going to be 90% of the way there.

Awesome. Steve, do you have a number one tip?

Well, it's kind of related. I mean, this is. I don't know, this is something I just happened to be reading on Twitter today. This guy, I think it was Julian Shapiro. Anyway, he's a writer, he's a younger person, he's 30. And he's like, well, for most of my life, I was like. He was like, why am I not going to do another startup? He's like, I was trying to do startups so I could make a bunch of money because then I thought that would solve my problems. And then he was like, really? What I needed to do and Denver did, and many people don't do.

This is.

He took a step back and said, what do I actually want in my life? Friends, family, schedule, control. That's something I hear from a lot of my friends, some amount of money and influence. He called it faint. Like, I'm not paraphrasing, but like, you know, he wanted these different things. And he was. Then he was like, stack ranking them. And he was like, okay, what's actually going to get this done? He's like, in fact, I don't need to go become a, you know, five, make five 10 million bucks by building company and selling it, which is hard to do and risky. I actually can accomplish most of this stuff by doing what I like to do, which is writing. And I don't know if he's on Substack or it's on Twitter or whatever. He's kind of like an influencer person. But, like, I can make enough money, have all this control, do what I love to do this completely different way. And I think that for people to take a little moment and just be like, okay, let's just extract ourselves from the existing frameworks that we all exist in and like, can I do this stuff a different way? Is good to really think about, especially before you make big change. But then you can be intentional about what you're trying to get done.

I love that. So both of you really talked about intention and focusing in on those things that are really important to you and are going to bring joy to you on a daily basis.

The hardest question to answer is always, what do I want?

It's good we can ask that question.

Hey, Edward.

Thank you. Can you hear me?

Yes.

First, I want to thank you, Steve and Michelle. This tool I have found, even though it's still a bit confusing for me, I have found to be very helpful. And Michelle, I actually have a meeting set with you for next month. So I'm definitely looking forward to that. The question I have is I'm in my early 50s and I really would love to retire as soon as I possibly can. But what strategies do you really have or do you have for people that are looking to bridge the gap, if you will, before they can start accessing their. Either their 401 or their 403s.

Roger, you want to take this?

Sure. So you're in your early 50s and the key is what assets? How do you bridge the gap in terms of paying for your life outside of tax deferred accounts? Right, right. Well, your options aren't. They're not going to be your pre tax accounts. Obviously technically you could do Ross, but probably wouldn't be a good idea depending on your. And this is one reason why you want to have a framework to make decisions. Because in this case, let's say. And I don't know how far out you are, Edward, most people don't build up enough after tax cash. Right. They just don't because. Because of the tax advantages of deferring. But it's either gonna be after tax cash or some type of work. And I'll be honest with you, Edward. So I'm 54 and I was having these thoughts six, seven years ago. If you talk enough to people that are like an older vintage of us, they don't, if you really talk to them about what they want, they don't wanna retire. Really what they want. And Steve mentioned, I think the phrase earlier is time freedom. And so my personal, the way you bridge the gap if you don't have simply the capital and after tax assets or income from real estate or whatever, is to find something that will help fund your life but give you maybe the time freedom or the lack of responsibility, that can be the pain of the corporate world.

That's fair. I think for me, my biggest concern is healthcare. And if I'm not working, obviously that poses a serious issue. And if I'm only working 50%, it still presents an issue dovetailed with that is is there a way in the plan? Because part of my strategy is potentially moving overseas once I retire. And if that's the case, what I've found in the tool really prepares you for when you get Medicare. But is there a way to finagle the system that if I'm not going to be accessing Medicare.

You can do, you know, itemized health care instead of Medicare because we have some folks also in the military that use it and then they're in Tricare or something and they want to basically just kind of write down their costs that are related to that. Another quick thought here. I mean, depending on how aggressive you want to get, I mean some folks you could use debt to bridge the period of time before you can access your tax deferred money, but that's riskier. Like if you had a big heloc, you could put a HELOC on your house or refinance your house and do a cash out. Those are, I don't know, Roger, you might think this is a terrible idea because there's definitely like you're leveraging yourself.

Well, I think the key there, Steve, would be I'm a big believer when you're thinking of an option is you first you have to have a plan of record and then, you know, say the plan of record is that's the only option. And then you can create these what if scenarios. It depends on how much money is tied up into, into the tax deferred accounts to repay it. But I get your point.

And I think another thing that is often overlooked, you know, when you're thinking about early retirement in advance, you know, you have the idea every year that you can save towards tax deferred or save towards Taxable. And sometimes if you know you're going to be an early retiree, instead of saving towards the tax deferred, you can, you know, increase your flexibility by intentionally saving towards taxable for the next several years until you retire to help build up that fund to bridge the gap, which is a very simple solution. Yes, it's a little bit.

And he did mention health care before Medicare, which is the number one concern usually with people that are retiring before 65. And I'm on the Affordable Care act plan because I'm self employed. I don't have my own plan. And you know, the average national average premium for a silver plan is about $469 a month in 2020. If you can qualify for subsidies, it's about $199 a month, which is a substantial difference. So I think you can look at that. Edward. I think was Edward right? Yes. You can look at that as you are doing your planning. Because I don't know if you're married or not, but if you're married, you can make up to about 67,000 and still qualify for subsidies. So you can manage that. It's not quite as expensive as we might think it is, depending on how healthy you are. And then also some of those that part time work or lesser work, you could find jobs that have some type of health care involved in it, too. Life is not about working or not working, retirement or not retirement. You get one shot at this. And if you need to get out or want to get out in the early 50s, just make it work. You'll figure it out. I mean, I wasn't ready for kids, but I made it work. I'm not saying be imprudent about it, but if you say, well, I really want time, freedom or need to get out of this, work the problem and you'll figure out the solutions. You may not like all the answers, but it just becomes a trade off. I think we forget that because we think it's all about the financial optimization.

Sometimes I think you're right. Thinking about it as a downhill slope as opposed to running off a cliff is a good analogy for me to help rationalize things.

Yeah.

Thanks, Edward.

Thank you.

All right, we'll take one or two more questions. Eric, I think you're up next.

Hi, can you hear me?

We can hear you.

Everyone asked that question, so I thought I'd just ask as well. So I think I would characterize myself as a potential accidental retiree as a result of the pandemics. So I'm in my mid-50s self employed. My business has been materially impacted by the pandemic.

I have some serious questions whether or.

Not the demand for my services will ever return. And through my career I have saved money, invested money just to give myself.

Options should something bad happen to my company.

And I'm kind of here. I find psychologically I'm. I find it very daunting to move from a work based method of income and a work based reason for existing and moving to something that again, your endowment model that you mentioned where you're living off of your portfolio. And Roger, I'm really glad that you talked about the broader holistic thing about. It's not just about money management. There's a whole constellation of things. I guess my specific question is, you know, for someone like me who really hasn't had a lot of time to contemplate retiring in the moment and has found that maybe this is an opportune time to do it, you know what are. When I was younger there was. There were books about finding the correct career for you. You know, what kind of resource, what kind of like what color is your parachute kind of resources are available for people like myself that are just kind of contemplating this rather dramatic lifestyle change.

That's a really good question. And it is psychologically it's a big challenge. As big as the money. Even if you have the money. I definitely find that in the club it tends to be. Even in my practice it's people that have done all the money part right. It's just psychologically all the things that you express so well. A few books I'd recommended. I'm trying to remember the name of Cal Newport has a book about either. It's either so good they can't ignore you. I want to say is the book but like in your. What was the author Cal Newport, one of my favorite dudes. I don't know him. I want to know him. He's great writer. Cal Newport. So good they can't ignore you. And he talks about the idea. And this is an area that you'll probably want to explore. Eric is if your business is gone because of the pandemic, there are lots of other things you can do and it's not simply pivoting to something that's totally different. You have to identify the skills that made your business successful, not what the business was. It's like I'm not a financial planner. I'm a guy that really loves to teach and figure out problems and encourage people. I just happen to express that in what I do with the club or what I do with my clients. So that kind of mindset of your identity is not what you were in your business. It's all the things that you used your business to express. And the key is identifying those things and repurposing it to whatever the next thing is. Another good book, and this one, I think has a Christian bent to it, but I think it's still valid even if you're not Christian, is a book called Halftime. Buford, I believe, is the author. I don't remember the first name, but it's called Halftime. Those are two books about exploring this next phase. Encore Career is another. Don't retire. Excuse me? Don't retire. Was it. I have. I have it over here somewhere, but I can put it in there. But there are a lot of really good books on this subject. Derek.

Great question. Thank you, Hudger, I'm surprised you didn't mention your book.

Well, it's not really about exploring your identity, so.

Give me an email.

Eric, I got a million of them. I'll send you one.

Well, we're at the top of the hour. I think this was a really fruitful discussion. Really interesting topics. I know it's affecting a lot of people on this call. And these are all the things that we're talking about all the time in the Facebook group and in the various communities. So we really encourage everyone on this call to kind of explore that so that we're all navigating this together. So, Steve, thank you for co hosting with me. And Roger, thank you for being a guest host again. We always love having you on these AMAs.

Yeah. And Michelle, thanks for. Sorry for hosting. Emceeing this. And just for everyone out there, I have seen lots of questions about the product and how it works. So we are hosting. Michelle is hosting office hours and kind of demos of the product. And you can find that on the. On our. Go to our homepage and you can look. You'll see a live events link out there. We'll put it in the chat in a second. But there. There's another. Other venues where you can get detailed questions and detailed product walkthroughs.

Next one is next Thursday morning.

Awesome.

Bye, everybody. Thanks for joining.

All right, thank you. Bye.