Dana Anspach on Retirement Income Planning [Ep.50]

Welcome to the New Retirement podcast. Today we're going to be talking with Dana Anspach, a certified financial planner, author, and the founder of Sensible Money, about retirement income planning and what she's learned in the course of working with hundreds of clients building her practice. Dana and I met in Chicago at a retirement income conference when we were both getting started a few years ago. And so with that, Dana, welcome to our show. It's great to have you join us.

Thank you so much, Steven. I love your website, New Retirement, and I'm glad to be here today.

We appreciate the feedback you've given us over the years. It's been super helpful. All right, well, look, I wanted to kind of get a little background on your business and just kind of hear it in your own words. I mean, you've done, you know, since we met. You know, you kind of had this vision. You created your business, you know, around largely retirement income and getting the most out of assets, and you've learned a ton. You're clearly building it. And, you know, also as a, you know, woman owned female entrepreneur, kind of just love to get a little bit in your own words about kind of how that journey has been to getting to where you are today.

Yeah, absolutely. Where do you want to start?

Yeah, just why you got started and you know, what your vision is, I think where you want to take this and what you specialize in doing great.

So I actually started in 95 and I had a degree in communications and advertising. But my dad had always said the first thing I should do is hire a financial planner. And I was married at the time. I lived in Grand Junction, Colorado, and I was selling ads for something called the RL Polk Directory, which probably some people listening to this podcast will actually remember. And it was some somewhat of a version of the Yellow Pages. And so I met two people who called themselves financial planners. And one recommended that we put all our discretionary income into two whole life insurance policies. And the other person explained why we needed an emergency fund, why we should participate in my husband's 401k plan to get the company match, why we should build up long term savings and the difference of investing long term versus short term in something like a money market account. And I could clearly see that one person was trying to sell us something and one person was offering really good advice. So we hired the planner that was offering the advice, and I used to ask him so many questions that he suggested that I do this as a career. And so that's really how I originally got started. And I Was lucky to have a mentor that really taught financial planning rather than product sales. So you know, he really mentored me to always find out about the client's needs and the phase of life they're in. And I remember some of the best advice he ever gave was if you're going to err, err on the side of conservatism. So you know, don't push your client more aggressive direction, you know, look at, look at how to meet their needs. And so, you know, from there I moved around a bit. I ended up moving to Arizona and working with a CPA firm to head up their wealth management division. And at that CPA firm it was interesting. A lot of CPAs were getting into the business at the time and they were somewhat cherry picking their client base to sell again certain high commission type products. And so again I had this disillusion like wow, this isn't really financial planning. And so in 2000, I think it was 2005, early 2006, I found a like minded individual. We joined forces and started a fee only registered investment advisory firm. And we didn't want to sell product, we really wanted to do real, what we call real financial planning. And we had a great business for many years. And then I really wanted to specialize in this deal accumulation retirement income process. It's where my passion is. And it came about actually from a particular couple that came into the CPA firm. They reminded me of my grandparents and they brought 10 years worth of brokerage statements in. And in a good 10 years in the market, their money had not grown at all. And basically what the broker had done is anytime they raised a question he had recommended a new move, they put their money in something different that addressed the concern that the person raised, but it didn't educate them about the benefits of a long time, long term diversified portfolio. And so that just was the spark for me. I got really mad and I thought like these are like my grandparents and their money should have doubled over this 10 years and instead it didn't grow at all. Meanwhile, the broker made lots of commissions and there was no attempt at education. And you know, you can't just react each time to a client's needs. Our job is to educate and explain and you know, offer information that helps someone make better decisions, not just reactionary decisions. So that's how it started. I became really passionate about the age 55 plus group and the fact that they couldn't go back to work and they didn't get any do overs and that the stakes were higher. And started my own firm in 2011 to focus on that segment of the market.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, it's great to kind of hear how you got here and I definitely hear you on the incentives as well. It's so important to understand how you're, you know, who you're working with is getting paid and also for when, if you're starting a company, I think to design the incentive structure so that you're. Don't get tempted to do, you know, not, not be aligned with your end users, especially as a. If you're obviously clearly a fiduciary, you have to do that. But even a lot of fiduciaries, I think it can, it can get a little skewed if there's, you know, it's hard, right? If you're, if you know, it is.

Yeah, it is hard. And I, you know, on both sides, I think, you know, I've met a lot of great advisors. Like, when I look at how I started in this business, I didn't know there was such a thing as a fee only registered investment advisory firm. And so depending on how someone ended up in this career, sometimes they're working in a firm where the only thing they know are the products they sell. They don't really. They've not been exposed to what a broader financial plan looks like. And so, you know, it's not that they're intentionally giving bad advice. They honestly don't know. And on the fiduciary side, I agree, you still have to be careful about people that are just trying to gather assets. You know, a common conflict, for example, might come up is, should I pay off the mortgage? And so, you know, we run all of that through an analytical spreadsheet process, so we're getting a quantifiable answer. Whereas I have seen people that tend toward, oh, no, you should never pay off the mortgage, you should invest the money. Well, that is not always the right answer. Matter of fact, most of the time, that decision, we frame decisions often in terms of red, yellow or green. You know, red don't do it. Green, you got to do it and yellow is in the middle. And that's often a yellow decision where the softer side comes in, how someone feels about it, you know, the level of security they feel has a big impact on that decision. So, yeah, there could be conflicts in any compensation model. Absolutely.

Yeah. Now it's on the, you know, paying off the mortgage question. It's, it's come up twice for me this week, actually, with a friend and a family member where they have a Pile of money. And they're like, well, feels like the market's high, you know, and I have this mortgage and I think there's an argument to definitely like, well, if you're going to put this in a fixed income anyway, which is making pretty bad returns, maybe pay down your mortgage or make it conforming and refinance it, stuff like that.

So yeah, there's a great book, it's called the Value of Debt by Thomas Anderson, he's a financial advisor out of Iowa. And I think it offers a good perspective for higher net worth families. When you can use really low interest rate debt. There can be a case for saying, you know, I'll keep the mortgage. Particularly right now, if you can get a 30 year mortgage at under 3% and look at my portfolio as a 30 year investment, you know, you will probably be able to participate in that leverage. But it's not for everyone. Yep, it's not. So for those higher net worth clients that want to use leverage, I think his book offers a really good perspective for, for a lot of people, it feels better to just pay off the mortgage.

Yep. Yeah. Okay, great. So I definitely want to talk to you about kind of sensible money and your process there. One question that occurred to me though when you're talking about, you know, this client, these, these, this older couple that helped to spark this, you know, I've been reading a lot and I think we're seeing people are living longer, you know, and this population over 50, they, they do have a lot of assets but they have to fund their whole lives. But cognitive decline is a real thing. You know, how do you, do you have a process for working with clients as they age and thinking through how they'll make decisions if one, you know, part of one spouse starts to run into some issues?

Yeah. So, you know, luckily we haven't had a lot of struggles in this area. I think what happens is when the relationships are established in that age 55 to 65 range. I now have clients I've worked with for almost 20 years. So I have watched people enter into cognitive decline. One spouse, sometimes one spouse has passed and then the remaining spouse is fine for a few years and then enters that phase when that trusting relationship is in place. Seems that they listen to us and follow our advice and we really haven't experienced any issues when there's not that relationship in place. I have seen cases where, you know, one spouse passed away and the surviving spouse was just lost. They didn't know what to do and they didn't feel equipped to hire the right person, and they were distrustful of everyone. And so if that's a concern, I do think it's a time where working with an advisor can offer some of those intangible benefits of peace of mind and knowing that your other half's going to be okay, or knowing that if you build up that trust to allow someone to help you with those decisions, you won't struggle as much when you enter that phase of life.

Yep. Yeah. We definitely had some of our users that come to us for this reason. They're like, well, I want to make sure that my spouse is taken care of. A lot of people have that. And then how do I do it? Can we do it through technology? Or do we need someone locally that we can meet across the table with? And that. I think there is a strong argument for that. There's also a lot of family dynamics. Sometimes you have financial experts in the family that are perfectly trusted, many times not. And then there can be many misalignment. You have, like, you might have multiple children. Some are really fiscally responsible and some are less responsible, but then they're also potentially interested in your assets.

Yeah. I've seen families that are wonderful and help each other out and are trusting. And of course, I've seen the opposite, where a few siblings kind of conspired to take all of mom's money before she passed. So you do you see things all over the place.

Yeah. It's a big consideration, I think, structuring it and being clear about how decisions will be made. It happens, you know, so if you don't have money, it's not a problem. If you do have money, it can create more problems, you know?

Yeah.

And so thinking it through and how decisions will be made and trying to avoid. I've seen families blown up by this, too. It's instead, like, hey, you know, everything's good, and then, oh, now there's a fight about money. And all the family stuff goes out the window, which is kind of tough to see. Right.

Yes.

So managing that up front is important. So. Okay, well, we'd love to talk to you about kind of like sensible money, kind of what you're seeing and what do your customers look like? What do they want? What are some of the big problems they. And concerns they come to you with?

Yeah. So our typical client is in the age 55 to 70 range. They are about ready to retire. Ideally, we'd like to see people five years out from retirement, but oftentimes we see them about a year from that decision point. They Are trying to figure out how to take this collection of stuff. And we collect deferred comp and stock options and IRAs and Roth IRAs and brokerage accounts and sometimes annuities and whole life insurance policies, and really figure out how do all these things align towards a common goal of creating reliable cash flow? And so we have a very thorough planning process that we deliver over three strategy meetings. So we will not take over a portfolio. Every client goes through a planning process that is its own standalone service. And through that planning process, when they get through, they have the option of. Of then working with us on an ongoing basis. But that planning process outlines all of these key decisions that someone needs to face. It involves a lot of education. It starts with, of course, data gathering. And once we've gathered all the data, we use what we call a strategy one meeting where we really focus on the big picture. Can they retire when they want to? What will the cash flow look like? Does the plan last? Like, does it work over their projected lifespan? And is it certain enough so you'll hear about a Monte Carlo analysis? And yes, we do use that at strategy one, it's the first of three retirement readiness tests that we run. A really broad. Does your plan work? We find that's what most advisors call a financial plan, and they kind of stop there and they're done. And so for us, our clients are looking for far more detail. And so as we move into strategy two, we're then looking at what are the decisions that can improve the outcome when you claim Social Security, when you start a pension, should we do Roth conversions? Should we draw out of the IRA first, or should we draw out of the brokerage account? Other capital gains considerations that we have to think about. As you draw down your assets, should you both retire at the same time? Different times? Should we spread out your deferred comp? I mean, there's just, should we use your home equity at some point? Should we downsize? Can you afford a second house? I mean, all of these various scenarios that come up in life are what we run through in strategy two and figuring out other ways to improve the outcome of your plan through tax optimization and through some of these decisions. And that actually leads us to a withdrawal pattern by account. So looking at the most tax efficient way to draw out the assets, sometimes you'll end up with, you know, an age difference where one spouse may be starting IRA withdrawals early and the next spouse might not be starting for 10 years. Or it makes sense to draw, you know, all of the brokerage Account assets first and not touch the IRA for 10 years. So those accounts are invested very differently depending on that job task that that's assigned to that account. So we do all the planning work first to be able to very clearly see what is the job that each of this individual account types needs to do. And then we can align the portfolio to that particular stream of cash flows. And so that's what we focus on in strategy three or different ways to build the portfolio. We use a particular process called asset liability matching where we're using very safe investments to cover the cash flows that are needed in the first five to ten years of retirement. And we're using more aggressive growth oriented index funds for the longer term cash flows. So it's a very thorough, comprehensive process that people love because it lays everything out, even down to the tax withholding, lays everything out so clearly. And I think one of the questions you asked was really like, what are people looking for? People are scared. So when they shift from that accumulation and savings phase to the decumulation phase, it's terrifying for a lot of people. And you know that that's normal. I try to reassure people, yes, it's completely normal to want to see every possible iteration of your plan when you're, you're going through this phase. And the more detailed and thorough it is, the more comfortable they feel saying, yeah, absolutely, like this, this will work.

That's awesome. It's awesome to hear. I love the fact that you have this very clear methodology that is so comprehensive and also that you're able to articulate it very clearly as well, which is so important. Do you find like so many questions you kind of hear are like, how should I invest? That's really like what most people ask versus and then they're very focused on wealth. This is the discussion I had with Bob Merton. He was like, the whole problem with retirement planning is everyone's focused on wealth accumulation and they should be focused on income. And when you talk to a pension manager, they're like, okay, what's my funding ratio for my pension? Can I deliver the income streams that I signed up for? The liabilities that I'm on the hook for? They're a lot less concerned about what is my absolute like AUM or net worth number right now. And I think that's a great way that you guys are actually thinking about, you know, asset liability matching. You're the first advisor I've ever talked to that has used those words. So that's good.

Yeah. And it, you know, it does come from the Pension world. And it comes from the RMA designation which, you know, I was in the very first class of retirement management analysts is what an RMA stands for in 2010 and absolutely love the curriculum. It really helps you think about the things that are important in the decumulation phase and the fact that it shouldn't be a focus anymore on maximizing return at a given level of risk. It's a focus on delivering reliable cash flows. And it's a different type of portfolio that accomplishes those goals. Goals. So when people bring that I want to maximize my net worth on paper at any given day mindset, that goal can often be in opposition to I want to make sure my cash flows are secure and my lifestyle is secure for this length of time.

Yep, yep. Do you ever have conversations with people where you're like, oh, you can actually spend more money now?

Yes, so. So those are so fun as well as you can actually retire now conversations. So, you know, some of the most rewarding things we've been through. I mean, I had a client that when we initially started working together, he was seven years out from retirement. And then, you know, he earned more. His business did quite well and the investments did well. And then, you know, we were thinking he was still three years out and he ended up retiring. All in all, I think three or four years after we started working together. So we were able to accelerate his retirement date by three or four years and just thrilled, just couldn't even believe. I'll never forget that meeting where they came in. His wife had just recovered from breast cancer and so they had been through all of that and, and I said, you know, he was like, well, I'm wondering maybe if we could retire in two years now instead of another four. And I was like, you can retire now.

Nice.

And it was just their face lit up and it was just amazing. So those are really rewarding experiences. You know, on the flip side, sometimes we do have to tell people that they're going to need to make some adjustments in order to be able to retire. And either way, you're helping someone, you know, see what the levers are, you know, what can they do to accomplish their goals.

Right. Yeah. Can you, you have a nice summary on your site and in some of your graphics, like, you know, what people can control versus what they can't control. And also I'd love your opinion on what are the big ones for most people.

Yeah, I think, well, the biggest one that everyone focuses on is of course, short term market volatility this year, 20, 20 is such a prime example. You know, even though we're building a plan for life and we show people that, you know, you have safe investments like CDs and bonds that will cover your cash flows. So when something happens like what we had happen in March of this year, you know, as long as you don't have to sell those investments While they're down 20 or 30%, you have time, you have other safe investments to live off of. But that human nature factor, looking at your statement and, you know, actually seeing that the dollar value is lower, that's still the biggest area where we, we have to combat the emotions, the behavioral aspect of getting people to say, look, you know, we've tested for this, you're going to be fine. We need you to stick with the plan. So, you know, that's always the big one. We cannot control or the market, short term market movements, you can control the level of risk you take. So, you know, we all know that if you want the potential for higher returns, you have to take more risk. And so we really try to help people understand, look, if you don't want to experience that risk, there is an alternative. We can use a safer portfolio. It'll be less volatile, but it'll also likely mean you need to, you know, cut back your lifestyle or have less amount of cash flow. So really framing those trade offs, we can't control tax rates, but you can control tax planning. We can't control inflation, but we can understand that inflation has a different impact on different demographics. So if you're a lower income household, you know, living on maybe 50,000 a year or less in retirement, you're probably going to need to build in a bigger buffer for inflation just to cover utilities and health care and basics. And if you're a higher income household living on 100,000 a year or more, you are likely not going to need your cash flow to increase at the same pace as inflation. So there's all kinds of customization that can be done to a plan that helps you adjust around some of those things that we cannot control.

Yeah. Do you, do you find people using like a bucket strategy or do you ever encourage that? I mean, I get it psychologically, like, hey, have a near term pile of money that is highly liquid so that you can kind of ignore what's happening in the market and keep reloading that, although it does make your overall portfolio less efficient.

Yeah, you know, asset liability matching technically is a bucket strategy where, you know, let's say we have a money market fund that is set up as a Direct deposit, retirement, paycheck replacement. You know, we're direct depositing, withholding taxes. And so it's basically replacing someone's cash flow. And there's 12 months worth of cash there. And then you have a bond that matures. I literally think of it as a bucket that will pour into that money market fund to replenish the cash flow at the end of the year. And then over here you have your equity bucket. And when the equity bucket overflows, we pour some out of it. And when it's not overflowing and there's going to be those years, we leave it alone. And so I think the bucket strategy offers a lot of behavioral advantages. You know, there's been tons of research done that says, can it guarantee a higher return or a better outcome? No. You know, only by looking backwards can we tell you exactly what strategy would have delivered the highest return. You know, we don't have that crystal ball looking forward, but it has the potential to help people stay, stay invested according to their plan. And we know that when people bail out at the bottom, that is going to hurt their long term returns. And so if behaviorally a certain strategy helps people stick with it, then I'm a fan of that.

You know, is there a certain level of certainty that your clients want to get to before they pull the trigger? Like 95% probability I'm good. Or somewhere around there?

Yeah, that is such a great question. Because everyone is different. And you know, in this crazy year, I think we've seen our risk tolerance. We are all so different, you know, whether people want to wear masks or don't wear masks or, you know, what level of risk they want to take in their social interactions. And, you know, so when we just think about simple things like that and our tolerant, I guess that actually is not so simple as we've learned. But our risk tolerance is vastly different from our neighbors or our brothers or our co workers. And so we can have clients that come in and we run three retirement readiness tests. One is a Monte Carlo analysis and we want to see an 85% success rate or higher in that. And that is what we think of as the most stringent of our three stress tests that we run. And we use a very conservative set of assumptions when we run that. So we don't need to see 100% because it's an 85% chance that your plan works just like we've projected it without needing to make any adjustments. And so we feel like a 15% chance that we might have to adjust spending or, you know, in the middle of the recession in 2008, 2009, I had clients retire in December 2007, you know, the worst time in modern history that you could have retired. And, you know, all we did was just say, let's just forego your inflation rates for a few years until your portfolio is back on track. So that's what we think of as an adjustment. So 85% chance that your plan works without any adjustments, and 15% chance that we might have to make some adjustments, such as skipping an inflation raise here or there. We think that that is acceptable. We have some clients that want to be at 100%. You know, the second retirement readiness test we run is one called fundedness. So you were alluding to that. It's the same type of test that a pension plan runs where they might send out an annual notice that says we're 80% funded or 90% funded. We like to see 110% funded given a certain set of underlying assumptions that we use. And then the third retirement readiness test is one that comes from our investment partner, asset dedication. It's what's called a critical path, and it basically goes back and retires the person every single year as of the Great Depression and runs their projection forward and said, okay, this is the amount of money you had, and this is what you withdrew, what would have happened and how many scenarios made it and how many scenarios ran out of money. And so we want to see 100% success rate for every scenario that started in 1940 or later. We're not as concerned about the Great Depression because monetary policy has shifted so much since then. And so those are the retirement readiness tests we run. And we find that people just have very different comfort levels. I have some people who are completely comfortable retiring at a range that's below what I'd like to see. And they're fine knowing that they might have to make some adjustments later. They go, you know what? I'm going to enjoy my go go years as a. We like to call it the early retirement. And if I have to cut back later, I get it. They say, you know, I understand. And I have others that are almost the polar opposite. They, you know, want to see well over 100% success rate in all of the various stress tests that we run. And they just feel really nervous and want that extra buffer for whatever might come along. So it's hard to give a real definitive answer because everybody's different.

Well, it's great to frame it up that way, and I can totally see why you know, if you can present it that, hey, 85% chance you're good, no changes required. And in a worst case scenario, we might have to make these kinds of small changes. Yes, that's like a much more comforting way to kind of look at it. I think so many people think of it as binary. Like I either have a lot of money, you know what that is, you know, and how much I need is exact, is, isn't really clearly defined. But like I'm either good or I'm not good, you know, and, and that's, and then they, that's why they can't. So many people, I think they're like, well, I'd like to retire. I wanted to get more control over my life, but I'm unwilling to keep, pull the trigger. So I'll work another year, another few years and then something happens. They're not able to frame it up in a better way.

Yeah, yeah, it is not as black and white as some people would like it to be. But, and that's one of the challenges with, you know, you can't run a plan and be done. You know, we retest every year and we always like the forward looking 30 years to meet a certain set of ratios and you know, as people live longer, we will extend the longevity of their plan. But things change. Tax laws change. When we just saw RMDs change from 70 to 72 and now there's something on the table that says they might extend them to 75. And, and so that presents a whole different set of planning opportunities. And you know, there's always going to be these changes that cause adjustments to someone's plan.

Wow. Well, I really like kind of the framework you laid out and the three ways of testing. So kind of the Monte Carlo, the historical back testing and then the kind of funded ratio perspective. That's awesome. I can see why people would love to see that and also kind of frame up how they can make future decisions based on changes in those, in those metrics. So you kind of, once they're set up and running, you meet annually with folks or how often is it, you.

Know, we have a formal process where we update the plan and the three retirement readiness tests every year. And in the fall we do tax projections. So as we think of it, you know, there's a lifetime plan that will give us a broad sense of what years should we do Roth conversions or realized gains or losses. But every year you have to finesse that because tax rates change and deductions change. And so every year we're fine tuning that with the tax projection. And then there's a lot of other touch points throughout the year. Things that are like what we call high cash notices. So cash comes into the portfolio from dividends and interest and we're making decisions about whether to invest that into growth or into income into the paycheck replacement portfolio and decisions on tax withholding. So there's so many things that change between 60 and now 72 people. One spouse will claim Social Security and then another and then a pension will start and then a deferred comp payout that we find we're constantly having to adjust the taxes and withholding and make sure people are prepared if they need to make quarterly taxes. So there's a lot of touch points around those things in the midst of the year.

Makes sense. I mean, we're definitely believers in planning as a living thing and it's kind of a living document, I think. So many people, well, one, almost no one plans right. So you got to make it easier. And then two, if they do plan, it's like a one time experience and it's very expensive. And it's usually a sales process for the, you know, many, you know, financial quote, unquote financial, various versions of financial advisors to kind of hook your assets. And, and so I actually appreciate what you're, what you're doing, which is, hey, you know, planning is a totally separate exercise fee only. And then the user has a decision like, okay, I want more planning or I do want help managing assets because it's just, you know, I can see how it all hangs together and also making it a living thing. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, great. So last bit on this. I do think it's cool how you guys own the outcomes. You know, you say, look, we own the outcome, right? Yeah, we talk about like kind of outcomes, like outcome based healthcare. It's like, hey, you know, you want to, you know, you're doing health stuff because you want to have better outcomes. Right? So same thing with you. Right. Sounds like on that. Sorry.

You know, we literally tell people, look, the reason we are so thorough in this planning process is if you hire us and we are working together on what we hope is a lifelong basis, we look at it as our responsibility to deliver that retirement paycheck that we laid out in your plan. And, and we do look at that as our responsibility. So our responsibility is to get down to the nitty gritty detail. We will set up a direct deposit. You know, for some clients it's twice a month to replicate Their paycheck. Some people it's once a month. We'll take care of the tax withholding and other people like a kind of a monthly budget. And then sometimes we'll even say, well, your property taxes come up in June and January and so they want an extra lump sum for that or to pay a long term care insurance premium or. I mean, we really look at it as our job to get down to that level of detail and make it easy and autopilot so that they can relax and go out and enjoy retirement.

Totally well. And this is, there's data that shows that people that have pensions are much happier because they're like, oh, you know, I get my paycheck forever. I've been getting paid and working and now I'm going to keep getting paid when I'm retired. I don't have to think about it. There's not like some portfolio I have to babysitter myself and worry about. And, and so if you can reliably deliver the income or make people comfortable that it's going to be there for as long as they need it, that's a huge lift for most people. And I think that's really what they want. They want. You know, when you think about quality of life, it's like I don't have to worry about it. I have enough to kind of meet my needs or my goals versus, you know, I have $2 million in an account, but I'm worried about it every night because if the market takes a 20% drop, I'm freaking out.

Yeah, you know, hopefully, you know, our job is to make sure people can relax at this phase and not be stressed about it. And you know, know that if we do need to make adjustments, that's our job too. And so you don't have to worry about it because we are doing the worrying and the testing and we will let you know. And you know, it won't be an adjustment such as, oh my gosh, oops, sorry, we ran out of money. That doesn't happen in real life. When you do planning that outcome doesn't materialize. You're making these tiny little adjustments along the way to make sure that everything stays in a safe zone.

That's awesome. And you also deliver the paycheck right. So it sounds like you're moving money between equities, the bond ladders to cash accounts, and then so people can kind of know that the cash is coming in on a regular basis.

Yeah. So they don't have to think about those nuances.

Yeah. The automation is Cool. I mean, that's where I think financial services is headed in a much bigger way. More and more automation for you. Okay. So appreciate that. I would love to kind of, as we wrap up here, kind of hear kind of what your vision is for your business and yourself, what you think the world looks like in five years.

Yeah. So, you know, this has been an interesting year. I know for a lot of people, working from home is big, a big adjustment. We actually have clients in 27 states, and staff spread across four different states. And so for us, amazingly enough, it was a pretty seamless experience. And I think more and more, we will see people who are looking for, you know, an expertise, and they realize that it doesn't have to be someone they. That lives in their city or town or that they can drive to their office. So we were set up for this environment. And I'm very grateful because staff and myself, we've all been very comfortable and, you know, able to make the decisions that make us feel safe and healthy as we go through this. You know, in terms of where I see myself, I am so lucky that I love what I do. You know, probably one of the things I also enjoy is that I get to help people retire when they don't love what they do. And it makes me even more grateful every day that I love what I do. So I'm one of those people who happen to find that thing where I get to look forward to coming to work every day. And so we will continue to grow the firm. I am currently building out a partner track, so some of our younger staff have the ability to buy in and become partners in the firm, so that I have a longevity plan. But we have an amazing team. I've described it the last two years as running like a Swiss watch, and everybody has voiced how much work was a safe place to be this year. It was kind of like that happy place to come together and even virtually and have something to focus on outside of everything going on in the outside world. So I just see more of that. I want to continue the culture we've grown and the work that we do and. And make it a place where everyone that's here really likes to be here every day that they come to work.

Yeah, it's so important. Right? It's. It's hard to build a good culture. It kind of has to come out organically, I think. You can't really, like, you know, mandate it with.

You can't mandate it. You can't mandate it. I agree. But you can be very intentional about how you build it and you know, that has to start at the top. So for me, it's taken a lot of internal work and figuring out like, what does it take to be a good leader? And you know, I remember I had this point, maybe it was six or seven years ago now, where somebody called me the boss and I was like, oh, I don't want to be the boss. And then one day I realized like, well, I am the boss and so I need to be a good boss. And that was really a shift for me of heading down this path of like, what does it mean to be a good leader? And how do you intentionally set culture? And how do I make this a place where everybody feels the way I do or they love coming to work. And so we have been very intentional about it and I want to make sure that as we grow, we don't lose any of that.

Totally. Yeah, it's super important. Do you use an executive coach at all? Because by the way, it feels like for a lot of financial advisors, part of their job is kind of life coaching and helping people with their own behavior and these big decisions.

Yeah, I have used several coaches over the years and it has always been an absolutely invaluable process. I'm part of the strategic coach program, which is a, a coaching program started by Dan Sullivan. It's a program for entrepreneurs described as how to help you build a self managing company. And so this is my fourth year now in that program. And you know, it has really helped establish, they call it thinking about your thinking, the mindset that you need to bring to the table. Any, any time I've worked with a coach, I have found it to be well worth every dollar I paid.

Yep. Yeah, I've, I've got an executive coach and it's been pretty helpful as we navigate, I think especially if you have a growing organization, you know, and you're taking on more and more leadership, you know, you do have to lean in and kind of embrace that and be comfortable with it and kind of accept, hey, this is part of my responsibility, but I need to be good at it because otherwise, you know, you got the fate of a lot of people in your hands. And if you make bad decisions and you know, act ethically, then you're going to have problems.

Yeah, yeah, it's very important.

I'll get the link for the strategic Coaching program as well. We'd love to. Any other resources that you really have found helpful for yourself and, and your clients as you, you know, build your business.

You know, I mean, if you're thinking in terms of resources for other advisors or resources for consumers?

Mostly for consumers, I would say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, for tax planning, there is. It's a weird website, but it's called dinkytown.com. i don't know if you've ever seen their calculators.

I know the name.

Yeah. There's a story behind how it got that name. It's some town in maybe Minnesota or where they're based. I can't remember. But I find that could be a really good tool. I know you've added a lot of tax capabilities into new retirement, which we looked at, and those are awesome. But when you're getting down to this current year and trying to figure it out, I think that can be a really good tool for consumers to use to try to do their own online tax projection and see what it might look like. So that's probably my best one for consumers outside, of, of course, new retirement.

On your own site, Sensible Money.

Yeah, my book. I'll have to throw that one in there. Control your retirement destiny. So I. I wrote that originally, I think it was 2012, updated it, and I believe 2017, and they keep changing the tax laws faster than I can keep up. And so I'm hoping Finally, in 2021 to focus on another update. But all the concepts in it are sound. It's just the underlying marginal tax rates have changed. But. But everything I discuss and all the planning concepts in it, you know, are rock solid and absolutely apply in today's environment.

Awesome. All right, well, look, I really appreciate your time, Dana. Thanks for being on our show, and thanks, Dotto Robison for being our sound engineer. Anyone listening, thank you for your time. Hopefully you found this useful. You know, you can find our tools and services@newretirement.com and you can find Dana's work@sustainablemoney.com and also check out her book, Control youl Retirement Destiny. She's also at Twitter. I think it's Money55.

MoneyOver55 on Twitter. Yes.

Okay. Awesome. And that's it. I think. A couple other thoughts. You know, we are trying to build the audience for this podcast. So all reviews are welcome. We read them and do adjust, but that's it. Thanks again and have a great day.

Thank you. It's been fun.