Leadership Live - Guiding Leadership: Lessons from Adapting and Listening

Foreign welcome back to another episode of Leadership Live. My name is Steve Loweys and I will be your host again today. The whole purpose of Leadership Live is to talk about the things that we have to deal with in leadership. And as every episode, we bring leaders on that have expertise in most of these topics, if not all these topics. And today I've got a treat for you because I've got a special guest with me, somebody who's been in leadership for a long time, Mr. Jim Kendall. Thank you for being with me today.

Thanks for having me.

So, before we get started, I've got a load of questions for you that, that some of the folks out there have actually sent in that we're going to talk about and kind of bounce some ideas back and forth. But before we actually get into that, give, give the folks a little bit about your background, just so we have a, they have a perspective of what I know about you and a little bit about your leadership background.

Well, my, my most recent experience is I run an operation in Saginaw, Michigan. It's a defense contractor. And we machine or fabricate some pretty complex pieces of equipment that are then integrated with our customers. Very complex items such as counterfire, radar systems, munitions trailers and things like that. Prior to that, you know, I have about 25 years major corporate roles, companies like BASF, Roman Haas, Morton International and Henkel, and about 20 years more on the entrepreneurial side, you know, running smaller companies.

And you're currently CEO of this defense.

Currently CEO of the company in Saginaw called Cygnus.

Yeah. So thank you for being here, Jim and I have had an opportunity you and I have had an opportunity to talk about various things in leadership.

Thank you.

Since we've gotten to know each other a little bit and you have no idea what I'm going to ask you today.

I have no idea.

So. So we do two things. So sometimes we have a single topic that we talk about, and that's what we've done on a number of these leadership lives. And in this particular one, I'm going to take a number of questions from that people have sent in. But in the spirit of what's going on in these days, there's a lot of lot happening in the political climate. And it's not a political question, but I'm going to use a political scenario to ask the question if that makes sense. All right.

It does. So.

So former president and soon to be president again, Trump recently nominated John Fan to be Secretary of the Navy. Okay. We don't even know about his Background, except that he has zero military experience. So that's causing some consternation.

But.

But here's pointing a leader who has a lack of traditional experience in that particular field. And have you ever experienced that? So no experience in the military yet. He might be running the department of the Navy. Have you ever been through that in your 30, 40 years of experience?

Well, maybe on a personal note, when I took the job at Cygnus about 10 years ago, yeah, My background is more in the paint and chemical.

Okay.

Manufacturing those products or applying those products. And Cygnus is a distinct product company. We make a tangible item, a jack, if you will. And I had never run a business like that. So all businesses are the same, but all businesses are different. So, you know, in terms of. I had to learn a new market, which was defense. My background was more, you know, a lot of automotive and a lot of specialty chemical markets. I had to learn defensive, different relationships with customers. Defense customers are a lot different than automotive customers or specialty chemical customers. And then the workforce is obviously different because they have different skills than I was previously exposed to.

So do you think the fact that you didn't have the experience in the industry was a detriment? Was it a plus? Does it matter?

You know, I'm not sure it really matters if you understand that some of the skills that you have developed over the course of your career in terms of, you know, understanding your people, understanding what makes your people tick, figuring out what is going on in the market, or in this case, the Navy, and what's it going to take to be successful, and also relying on your team around you to give input and help point you in the right direction.

Now people that are watching are going to say, well, you're the CEO, though. You have the luxury of being able to do that. Now put. Put kind of the. The hat on differently. As you're hiring people, as you've hired over your career, have you taken the same approach with people that you've hired? And I get. You can't do that for everybody. We need certain people that have certain specific skills for roles. But when you're thinking about other leaders or other roles, how have you approached that?

Well, we just hired an individual for a quality role in our business, which is defense. And the quality approach is a little bit different with our customers. And knowing she had zero experience in the defense market, we hired her anyways because we thought she had the right approach to a quality function, a quality role. She seemed to be very easy to communicate with, and we hired her because she understands quality and she's got the right demeanor, the right personality, in our opinion. And we're going to teach her what she needs to know on the defense market side that we participate in.

So it was more about what she brought to the table as opposed to having all of that specific skill set in the defense marketplace.

She seemed to be a person that we wanted on our bus.

Yeah.

And then we're going to teach her what she needs to know and to complement her current strengths to facilitate what she needs to do for our business.

The reason that question came out, and I know the person who sent me the actual question is there's a lot of talk about, you know, hire for aptitude and culture fit and all these other things and then train some of these skills and. And that this particular person is experiencing the opposite. That there's a lot of talk about doing that, especially from leadership circles. But the reality of it is it in. In her opinion, it doesn't happen enough. That's why she asked the question.

Well, some of the things that we're currently looking at as well, and the. The technical aspects of running a machine. Yeah, there's a lot of people out there and they kind of call it a button pusher, if you will. They don't necessarily know how to program a machine, don't really know how it runs. So one of the things we're looking at, because people are tough to come by right now, get somebody that has a history of operating a machine and then put them underneath people that are trained true machinists and teach them on.

The job how to do it.

That's one way that we're trying to approach things differently because there's just not a lot of people out there for.

Our business, which is great growing and there's that. I think there's parallels to that for a lot of other businesses as well. So this is an example of being able to hire somebody that doesn't have this specific experience, but they have the capability so you can potentially train them.

Correct.

So that. That's why that one particularly came up. The other question that I had, that's. That's related to a. Or that was sent to me. That's related to kind of current events. Just curious how you're going to approach this one. And I had another guest talk about it not. Not long ago. Michigan, Ohio State game. You. Did you watch it?

I'm a Michigan State fan.

Okay. Did you watch the Michigan Ohio State game?

I did watch the game.

And, and the brawl that happened.

And the brawl.

Okay. Look at it not from a player's perspective, necessarily, but from a leadership perspective. How do you view what happened through the lens of leadership? What would be your. What would be your advice to the two coaches?

My advice to Sharon Moore would be put the flag away. You won, deservedly so. From what I watched defensively, they played a great game and, you know, walk out with your. Your chin high and don't be bragging about it. Brag about the newspapers, talk to your friends, and on Ryan Day, probably just turn their cheek and walk away. What's the point? You know, somebody puts a flag in your field and it turns into a fight and pepper spray. If you win, you know, win with class. If you lose, lose with class.

Yeah, it's. Everybody's got kind of a different opinion. Too much of it is biased based upon the school that you root for. But there's some lessons, I think, from a leadership perspective, which is why it keeps coming up over and over and over. How do you deal with your team when something like that happens? Do you. Do you support it? Do you not support it? Do you use it as a lesson to teach rest of the team? How you respond to that says a lot about you potentially as a leader. Right.

If you remember Barry Sanders, when he would score a touchdown, never see him spike the ball or throw in the stands. He walked over and handed to the referee.

Yeah.

Act like you've been there before and.

Today that doesn't really happen.

Doesn't happen.

There's definitely a different focus on it.

Correct?

For sure. Yeah. Thank. Thanks. So let me get into a couple of questions that were very, very, very specific. And again, I'm going to ask this of a number of different guests coming up because we want to get different perspectives on this. And some of this is. Is you as a leader, some of this is your opinion of how to do leadership.

Okay.

So kind of two sides to this. First one is, is more about you as a leader. How leader, us as leaders were kind of always on to a certain extent. Right. You run a business, I run a business. A lot of the people that are watching run a business. And there's a certain amount of pressure with running a business. Fair.

Correct.

Okay. With all of that pressure, people coming to you and always looking to you for answers when they don't have them. How do you deal with that?

Well, if somebody has a problem and they say, boss, I have a problem, it's like, what do you think we should do to solve the problem? I followed a gentleman a number of years ago that Advanced, you know, quite high in the chemical industry. And when I took over his role at a smaller operation, it was in central Ohio, his guys would always come to me, or now my guys, and say, what should I do today? I'm going, I don't know what you should do today. I don't know what your job is. I'm not that smart. And so my predecessor basically gave everybody a list of what to do every day. And it taught him not to think.

They were dependent on him.

They were dependent on him to do all their thinking. And while he was a whole lot smarter than me, there's no way I was gonna be able to do all their thinking. A little bit of humor there. So I made it real clear to people, even today, if you have a problem, let's talk about it. And you might say, I have option one, option two, option three, let's talk. Talk about the options, or, I'm completely out of options. Let's talk about it. But they at least have to, you know, come up with some thoughts, some ideas on how to address the problem.

Earlier in your career, did you ever do that, what you were just talking about? And I only say that because earlier in. Early in my career, you know, I've only been leading for 30 years, not 40, but I was the one that would give the directive, and then I would sit back and say, well, why the hell don't they think on their own, right? And then I had to look in the mirror and say, oh, my gosh. The reason they don't think on their own is the example that you just gave. Because every day I would give the directive, and I created a situation where they wouldn't think on their own. And I think there's a lot of people that do that without realizing they're doing that. Did you ever do that?

I've never really thought of that. You know, possibly I had a boss, a number of bosses ago, a number of years ago, and he would say, so you got a problem, what are you gonna do to fix it? Because if you can't fix it, the next guy will. So he did it with a smile on his face. So it was less intimidating than that sounds. But, you know, one of my philosophies all along has been this is before I knew it was a Bill Davidson from Guardian Glass Pistons. When was hire the best people. You can tell them what you want done and leave them alone.

Let them do it.

Let them do their job. You're there for support, you're there for counsel. You're there to Take down roadblocks for them, but let them do their job.

Yeah. What I've learned, even on the. Take down the roadblocks for them, what I've now learned in the last 15 years is instead of even doing that, teach them how to take down the roadblocks. Right. So what are you going to do? But I've learned to kind of ask questions, to teach them how to process things through that. What's working? What's not working? Why do you think it's not working? What have you done so far? What was the result of that? And get them in a mindset of thinking through how to solve for the problem instead of even by removing the roadblocks. Can we sometimes create a situation where we're creating a little bit of dependence.

Correct.

For them. Right. But I. Go ahead.

What One fun story. So we took a gentleman off the floor.

Okay.

He was running a lathe and he had military experience. He was an MP for the Air Force.

Okay.

So really his whole life he had been functioning in roles where he was told what to do.

Yeah.

And we said his name was Nick. And we said, nick, you know, we want to put you in this, what amounts to a kind of an inside sales development type role. I said, here's what's going to happen, Nick. You're going to love me for the first three months, and the next year and a half you're going to hate me. And he's looking at me like, what are you talking about? I said, I'm taking you completely out of what you're familiar with. I'm asking you to do things you've never done in your life. And we're not going to tell you what to do every day. You're going to have to kind of figure it out for yourself. And about 18 months in, I said, so do you like me again? He says, yeah, I kind of like you again now, but I didn't like you there for a while. And he says, how did you know that's what was going to happen? I said, because we completely changed your life. We completely turned you upside down, threw you into something you had no experience in. And we were trying to give you guidance and some, some pointers along the way. And now he's, he's killing it.

You know, that's. This is a complete tangent, but this is an issue that comes up often where vets in particular, they go into the workforce and the, and, and leaders in private, in the private sector don't know what to do with them for that reason because they're so used to receiving orders all day long. So that's that you make a really, really good point. You got to be prepared for the challenges they're going to feel if you put them in a role where they're not getting orders every day. Wow.

Another tangent. So without going into, you know, the organization's names, but a, a person from the military was put in charge of this organization. And, you know, and I knew some of the people in the organization, I said, the problem with that is you have a person in charge of an organization that has never done anything but take direction. They've never provided direction. And they struggled for a while and they finally worked it out. But again, some of the, some of the vets, some of the military people, unless you're at the highest level, your.

Job is to follow orders, receive direction, do what they say, as opposed to think about giving, to a certain extent, some direction.

So going back to one of my initial jobs as a general manager, my predecessor did all the thinking.

Oh, we talked about earlier, that example.

Right. And people were trained not to think. They were trained to do. And, you know, I guess in my career I have numerous examples where you take people off the floor, other things and give them some direction, give them some guidance, and they're doing things that they've never even thought about before, let alone thinking they could produce to the levels that they're producing today.

How long did it take you to change that tide where there's. They were so used to your predecessor giving them direction, and now you come in and you're trying to get them to figure it out for themselves, how long did it take you to kind of bring them around?

Probably somewhere between three and six months. Because initially it didn't dawn on me in terms of why I had to do all their thinking. Oh. And then once I figured out, okay, my predecessor told you what to do, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I just said, I'm not as smart as you. You got to go do your job. I'm here to help you, not to do your job. And then that kind of broke the ice.

So when you, when you hear the term servant leadership, what comes to mind in relation to what you're just talking about?

Well, I think from an entrepreneurial sense, I'll kind of answer it, you know, sideways. You know, kind of the classic case of a small entrepreneur entrepreneur is they have a hard time delegating or letting somebody else make decisions. And I think probably the larger the organization or if you're going to get to a larger organization, you have to let your people make, you know, make their own decisions, make their own mistakes, learn from their mistakes, but also work as a team to, you know, to minimize the impact of any mistake you might make.

You actually answer that very differently than most people. Usually when I ask about what servant leadership it is in this context, it, it's again, we do. We remove the stumbling blocks from our teams. We do this, we do this, we do this. You answered it very, very differently than 99% of the people that I asked what servant leadership means. So good perspective on that. Let's move on because there's a couple of others on here that I want to get your perspective on just because they're good questions. Right. We'll see if you can answer this one or if you're willing to answer this one. So. So how do you handle owning decisions that turn out to be wrong?

You said owning decisions.

So own a. How do you handle owning a decision that turns out to be wrong? And how do you course correct if you've had this happen and I'm sure As a leader, 40 years you've had you made a decision that wasn't mistakes and how do you course correct without losing credibility with the rest of your team? Because if you're a leader or if you're looking to become a leader, you're going to have this happen or you've had this happen. I've made a ton of mistakes. You've had to have made some absolutely boneheaded leadership mistakes.

Absolutely.

How do you do it?

So I think one way that, that I describe some of those things, I worked for a French owned company for a while and their, their MO is a lot different. And so if you start here and you want to go here, they have to have every single step of the way laid out, documented, planned out before they'll start. Really kind of the American way is, okay, I'm here, I want to get here. I think this is how I'm going to go.

But it might go like this.

This might be screwed up. So I'm going to end up over here. Yeah. And really kind of a. It's like the cliche. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, what is it?

It's a duck.

Probably a duck.

Yeah.

Okay, so we made a mistake. Okay. You got to deal with it and figure out why you made the mistake, address it, you know, make a different decision and move forward.

How do you communicate to the team though? And do you Ever fear losing credibility with the team because you made the mistake?

I think if you fess up and you made a mistake, it's better than, than saying, I didn't make a mistake. They all know you made a mistake.

We gotta admit it.

You just say, hey, this was wrong. Okay, so what are we gonna do now to correct it?

And, and I think that's.

You make too many mistakes.

Well, that's different.

Then you lose credibility because now you're a dummy. Right. But if you say, hey, this, if you have solid logic for why you did something and something changed, that's it. In fact, I tell my folks you're going to make mistakes, and that's okay. I'm going to ask you, what's your logic behind it? Solid logic. Okay. I might, I might disagree with your decision, but if you have a logical way of making that decision and the decision went sideways, okay, just not do that way again.

But I think that's where a lot of people fear, though. They fear of, of making that decision that's going to be wrong. So they don't make any decisions.

The alternative is don't make a decision. Nothing happens.

Yeah.

You know, or what's your paralysis by analysis?

Or they, they delegate all of the decisions to somebody else, which also isn't smart.

So they can't be held accountable.

So they can't be held accountable. Or they, or they delegate it to their boss and they just not going to make a decision. So there's all kinds of issues. But I agree with you being transparent about the fact that, look, it was the wrong decision. Now we got to figure out how we're going to address the particular issue is the best way to go. And I think that's probably the best advice that we can possibly begin or give. But kind of adding on to that, have you ever in your entire career been in a situation where you feel like you lost trust with your team? I know it's a deep one. That's a hard one to like, really think about.

Yeah, never really, you know, thought about that one. You know, maybe, maybe in the current role, I have a gentleman that works for me and he kind of, I think, looks real deep on, on certain things. I probably have done some things with him that he thinks that I think less of him in certain cases, and in those scenarios I just hit it head on.

So what do you mean by that? Like, what do you do?

Say, okay, you see something this way, let's talk about it.

Okay.

Because, you know, I don't think less of you. You know, as an individual. And what do you see that I'm doing that's bothering you so we can address it?

I'll give you an example of one that I did, and this is, this is going back to 2008. So what was happening in 2008? The financial crisis.

There wasn't much going on in 2008.

The sky was falling.

Yeah.

Nothing good was happening in 2008. And it, and it wasn't the decision I made, it was how I made the decision. And it still haunts me to a certain extent to this day. It was, you know, you got to make, you got to make decisions to just the business because of what was happening. We all had to do that. Any of us that were in the business. And it wasn't the decisions that I made. It was. I made them behind a closed door, didn't get anybody else involved in the decision. And then I came out and said, all right, team, this is what we're going to do. And I, I know I lost the credibility with my team, especially those that report to me, because I didn't get them involved. Discussion, decision. And, and, and if any. Anybody who's watching that has leaders that you say you trust and you go out and start making decisions without their input, whether you're a privately held company, closely held, family owned, large public, it doesn't matter. You've got to get them involved. If you, even if it's your pocketbook that, that it ultimately affects you, bypass them, you're going to lose credibility with them. And I did that, unfortunately. And it took me some time to rebuild and regain that trust. But I had to admit that because one of them came to me right after the fact and said, we agree.

But we weren't part of it.

We weren't part of the decision. They were right. They were absolutely right. Got it. You got, you got to make that call in, in the right way.

Maybe coming at that from the other side.

Yeah.

Let's just talk about, you know, the annual budget. I can make a budget, but then it's not my team's budget.

Yes.

So they really have to make the budget.

Yeah. And that's, that's interesting. So it's, it's kind of like you got to come at it from both sides almost. Right. It's like, here's what we have to work with. Figure it out.

Right.

You can't just say, create your own.

Correct.

There's got to be a box at least to work within. How do we make it work within the confines of what we Have.

Yeah, that's kind of a counter, is losing credibility. That's where you gain credibility. And you also gain participation or.

Yeah.

Or commitment from other people.

Yep, for sure.

On your team.

Yeah. Involvement is always, I think, I think absolutely the key. And unfortunately, some of us in leadership do it wrong so many times that you finally have to wake up and go, crap, I got to do it right. I gotta figure out how to do this damn thing right. At least, at least I've done that a number of times.

And in the past, you know, thinking more about it, somebody would be making a point. And maybe in my younger days, which was a long time ago, you know, over talk people.

What do you mean?

You know, they would be making a point and I would talk over them.

Oh.

So I was basically brushing them off.

Okay.

Fastest way to lose credibility with maybe not your whole team, but certainly some team members.

How did you realize you were doing that?

One of the team members said, hey, he's making a point. You just shut up and listen. So. And I, I. This was probably 30 years ago.

Okay.

And I still remember that one to this day. And sometimes my wife will try to over talk me or somebody else or even a conversation with them. That's, that's not good. Let people finish their thought.

So, so was it one of your direct team that said that to you?

Yes, absolutely.

How did you respond to that?

I said, wow, you're right. Because if you think about someone does it to you, you know, you kind of feel, you're insulted, you're upset, you're whatever. I didn't realize I was doing that.

I posted something on social media a couple of days ago around guiding goes both ways. And I had this exact same thing happen where within the last. David, our videographer, is on the other side here. It was actually his boss who came to me, Jen, and said, Steve, you have a, like you, you have a big personality. When you walk into the, into the office and people buy. People feel the sense whatever mood you're in at a particular time, and I had been coming in a couple days in a row, I had so much going on. We were busier than can be. And it was rubbing off. The tension that I was feeling, was rubbing off on other people. And she called me out on it and said, you're hurting other people. You're not saying anything to them, but they can feel the tension around you. And it was, if we're gonna, as leaders, if we're gonna take the time to guide other people, we've gotta be willing to Take the guidance back.

Absolutely.

From our team members. And that's. A lot of people don't look at that as a positive thing, but it is because if you have the relationship with your team where they're willing to.

Do that with you, listen.

Oh my gosh.

Listen to him for sure.

Listen to it. So I posted about it on, on social media. I didn't, I didn't mention Jen's name but I did so, so she's going to see this. But, but I did, I did send it to her right after I posted it and said yes, this is about you. Thank you for it. So I mean that's, I think that's a big part of being a leader. It is, we've got, it's got to go back and forth.

You have to have some humility.

Yeah. I mean we got to drive but on the, on the other side we've also guide more so. But we've got to have that humility to get the feedback back from our teams. Just, just as much so. Another question, rivalries within the organization. So here was the question itself. Within senior leadership, rivalries and competition often exist. Fair.

Absolutely.

Okay. How do you navigate these unspoken dynamics without derailing collaboration? Have you had it happen? How do you deal with it?

Probably more on the big company scenario. So I've been in, you know, we've had those types of almost a political fight, if you want to call it that. And I think in those as well. Those are tough, I guess is what I'll say.

Yeah.

And I think you just do a lot of talking.

Okay.

That's all I can do. You gotta get the parties involved and you talk about it.

How do you.

I don't have.

How would you.

Well, my style is just head on, just deal with it. Right.

So give me.

Doesn't always work. It's like I'm get Leah, I'm going to get Steve. We have an issue. Let's put our cards on the table and talk about it.

Walk through it.

That's about the only way to do it because if you don't do it that way then you're part of the, the, the issue where it's all he said, she said. Undertones. Yeah. Second, third hand information. Just dress it head on it.

This goes.

And being in a smaller business now, if something like that does come up, you kind of sense that you just nip it right now.

Have the conversation, deal with it and move on it. Actually it's another topic that we, I've had another guest on that we talked about this. But when somebody comes to you, one of your team members comes to you and says, jim, David's really bugging the hell out of me. He's doing this, he's doing this and he's doing this. What advice do you give him? What advice do you give me personally?

Talk to them directly.

I gotta go talk to David.

Talk to him directly. Because if you go through your boss, then you know, you're going to dad, you know, with the problem, which is going to make it more difficult. Now if you try that and it still doesn't work well, then we'll take it to the next step. But initially you got to deal with your problem head on.

And what's the next step if that doesn't work? So I go talk to David, it doesn't rectify it. I come back to you and say, Jim, it's still not working. David's still being like this, like this and like this. Now what?

At that point you would have a collective meeting. The three, three or four, depending upon, you know, some of the allegations that are out there. Might want to have HR involved.

Yeah.

And you still talk about it.

That's still better than I go talk to you now you're going to go talk to David without me. That doesn't solve anything.

If I go talk to David because you're complaining to me about David, then we just have this triangle going. And you guys would be more mad at each other than you were to begin with. Yeah.

And that's, that's something that we've got to coach our younger leaders on a lot because it seems like when, when they come out of school and they're just learning to be leaders, some one of their team members comes to them and it's like, I'm going to go handle this thing. And they, they don't encourage that person to go talk to the person that offended them. It's like they're afraid to do that.

Now a lot of the counsel I will give in that, I'll give them pointers on how to approach it.

Okay.

As opposed to coming in with guns a blazing, you know, hey, maybe this is a way to approach it that's a little softer. So as opposed to creating more animosity, you just deal with it in a productive role in a non confrontational.

So what would be that advice? So as an example, I know there's a ton of different ways to approach it without confrontation, but think back to advice that you've given to make it non confrontational. What's an example of advice that you've given to somebody to go deal with it. So it's. So it comes across as more solutioning as opposed to correct. Non.

So without going into all the details, really, in a, In a past life, we, we hired some people that maybe had less than glowing histories about them.

Okay.

And some of them had some skills, and they were like floor supervisors, and if one of their guys made a mistake or messed up, they would basically get in their face and just raise hell.

Yeah.

And one guy's name was George. Still friends with George. They said, george, what are you trying to do? That's all he understands. I said, really? Yeah. So I got to scream and swear and threaten him to do his job? Yeah. That's all he understands. Okay, George, let's set the expectation. Make sure he basically repeats the expectation to you that, Steve, I want you to wear a gray sweater today. Okay. And I want you to wear him tomorrow, too. Great. And he shows up tomorrow with a blue one and goes, steve, remember the expectations. Wear a gray sweater and you were wearing blue. Help me understand. Hey, I'm really sorry, George. I won't do it again. So pretty much, pretty soon, you get him looking at you, feeling guilty because he's not meeting those expectations versus you screaming at him, and then you're the bad guy.

Yeah. You're not wearing that gray sweater. What are you doing? What are you doing?

What's wrong with you? So you make them admit that they're not meeting your expectation, then you're there to help them meet your. Your expectations. Yeah.

That's good advice.

That's. It's simple. But it worked. And old George became a hell of a supervisor.

Yeah, it's this. I, I, We. We teach a course called Difficult Conversations. And, and one of the approaches in. In difficult conversations, instead of going guns a blazing, as you were saying, and, and with the opinion of, you're wrong and I'm. I'm right. Which is often the way we approach these conversations. It's. Let's go in and say, hey, this is how I view this circumstance. But I'd really like to understand how you view the circumstance as well. And then we can figure out a way to talk through this thing, because it could be a complete misunderstanding of the way I gave you the instructions. We've all done that. I thought I was clear, but I was not.

How much. How much voice inflection is in a text message. How much. How much stuff starts because of a text message, and it's misinterpreted a thousand different times.

You Know, it happens all the time.

Yep.

I. I meant it to be this, but you took the inflection at the end, and it means something completely different. I. It's crazy, the things that can happen. So, because I post so much online, this similar example, but a little bit different, I post a lot about real circumstances. Right. Actually, almost everything that I post online is about. It either just happened with a client or just happened in my own personal life or a combination of those two things. And I posted this particular situation, and I came back to the office, and I had one of my team members come up to me and say, much online this similar example, but a little bit different. I post a lot about real circumstances. Right. Actually, almost everything that I post online is about it either just happened with a client or just happened in my own personal life or a combination of those two things. And I posted this particular situation, and I came back to the office, and I had one of my team members come up to me and say, that was about me. Because I had this conversation with this person. I'm like, well, actually, it wasn't. I just had this conversation with a client, and here's what was actually going on. But it was this misinterpretation that that post was about a similar conversation I had had with her. Not exactly. That was about me, because I had this conversation with this person, the same as the misinterpreted text. But it's kind of the same thing. We make assumptions about whether the text said it or that post was about. And it wasn't. All we had to do is have a conversation about it. And it was about the situation with the client.

Correct.

But we get ourselves into a whole lot of trouble. We got. We got room for one more question.

One more comment I'll make to talk kind of communication. So we had a scenario whenever inside sales guys, we. We forgot to charge freight on four orders for a customer. So it may be four months.

And you have big stuff.

We have big stuff. So it was. It was not, you know, inconsequential money.

Yeah.

And this gentleman's name is Chad, and he was kind of beside himself. What do I do? I said, well, once you contact. The customer's name is Nick. Once you contact Nick. And we had built a personal relationship. We. We went out and visited this gentleman in Chicago last summer. I said, why don't you get in contact with Nick, tell him what your scenario is, and go from there.

Great.

I'll send him an email. I said, okay. How else do you think you could do this? What do you mean? Well, how else other than sending an email, do you think you could communicate with Nick because you do have a personal relationship with him now that you guys seem to like each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think you should do? I should call him. Absolutely. He came back five minutes later and says, oh, Nick said, oh, you know, I didn't, I didn't realize. I don't see the bills. And the guy that pays the bills, he doesn't know. So yeah, just, you know, send us what we need to pay and we'll take care of it. And it's because he called him and he had that personal relationship. So the issue was a non issue communication.

Send an email and you never know how. That's misinterpreted.

Correct.

What do you mean? They're trying to screw me by now, charging me extra. I mean, who knows how it's misinterpreted.

Call them up and talk to him.

Yeah, communication. I mean, the core of one of the cores of leadership.

Right.

You got to be able to have it. But there's one more question that I wanted to ask and it's again, it's more of a personal question because it's now the third or fourth time that it's been sent to me. You got to ask somebody. You got to ask somebody. It's kind of one of these, one of these things.

So I'm the lucky guy.

You are the lucky guy again. And it's actually, it's a personal leadership question. Right. So. And, and I kind of know, I know you well enough to know that it's probably. Well, let me just ask the question. Every leader battles their own ego at some point. This is the statement ahead of time. How do you keep ego in check to avoid sabotaging your own decisions or relationship as a leader?

You got to check your ego.

How? That's really, that's really the. And I know this person too. Really. It's. How do you do that, knowing full well that as leaders, sometimes it's the ego that helps us. Right. Become leaders. But then how do you keep that damn thing in check?

Well, maybe I look at it from a broader perspective.

Okay, so.

So I really get a charge out of developing people into something that they never thought they could do before. And how do you do that? Give them the opportunity, you give them some guidance, you give them some coaching. And you have to kind of act on their level, if you will, in terms of you don't want to come across as you're better or smarter or different than them. And our leadership team, we're very clear that we got five guys, five people on the leadership team. We're all equals, right? Just because I have the fancier title, it didn't mean anything. You know, collectively as a group, we're going to figure out what we have to do to act on their level, if you will, in terms of you don't want to come across that you're better or smarter or different than them. And our leadership team, we're very clear that we got five guys, five people on the leadership team. We're all equals, right? Just because I have the fancier title didn't mean anything, you know, collectively as a group, we're going to figure out what we have to do to get better. So to me, you have to check your ego, because if you're a leader, your ego really shouldn't come into it. Getting people to do what the organization needs them to do to maximize the potential of the organization, the individual, whatever you're trying to do, you know, has to come through. So if you really can't check your ego to get better. So to me, you have to check your ego, because if you're a leader, your ego really shouldn't come into it. Getting people to do what the organization needs them to do to maximize the potential of the organization, the individual, whatever you're trying to do has to come through. So if you really can't check your ego in terms of leading people and developing people, developing your organization, then maybe you shouldn't be there.

It's one of the first questions that I ask when somebody says, I want to be a leader. Why? And the answer will tell you a lot about if they're able to check that ego or not. I mean, if I were to ask myself 30 years ago why I wanted to be a leader, I would have given the wrong answer.

Yeah. In terms of leading people and developing people, developing your organization, then maybe you shouldn't be there.

It's, it's, it's one of the question, first questions that I ask when somebody says I want. Because I want to be CEO, that's the answer I would have given. It had nothing to do with people and want to be a leader. Why? And the answer will tell you a lot about if they're able to check that ego or not. I mean, if I were to ask myself, there are probably a lot of folks out there now, it's obviously changed since then, and it's more, more along the lines of what you just said, but you do got to ask that Question, why do you want to lead in the first place if you're going down that path? Because if you're struggling with this piece, there's a chance that you're doing it for the wrong reason.

We all got here for different reasons and you know, some is drive, some is lucky.

Years ago, why I wanted to be a leader, I would have given the wrong answer. Yeah, because I want to be CEO. That's the answer I would have given. It had nothing to do with people and, and there's probably a lot of folks out there now. It's obviously changed since then and it's more, more along the lines of what you just said. But you do got to ask that question. Why do you want to lead?

A whole variety of reasons. So I think to be able to operate in these roles is somewhat of a privilege, in my opinion. You developed your business from the ground up, so you kind of developed the business very successful. My case, a kind of a wide ranging background and through opportunities you learn a lot.

In the first place if, if you're going down that path because if you're struggling with this piece, there's a chance that you're doing it for the wrong reason.

We all got here for different reasons and you know, some is drive, some is luck, whole variety of reasons. So I think to, to be able to operate and I guess you have to, you know, check your ego because, you know, one wrong decision or you know, somebody turning left in front of you, you know, things, things can be a lot different for sure. So where you're trying to take your organization, you're not gonna do it by yourself. Most people won't. You have to have a team of people around you that, that respecting these roles is somewhat of a privilege.

Sure.

In my opinion, you developed your business from the ground up.

Yeah.

So you, you kind of developed the business very successful. My case, a kind of a wide ranging background and through opportunities you learn a lot. You trust you. And I guess trust is a big word since we're. And I guess you have to, you know, check your ego because just kind of wrapping up here, there's a book out there, it's called the trust edge. Better title is the edge you gain from trust, in my opinion. And it basically takes the approach that trust is the most important capital in business, if not life. And, and we're running our business now. Trust is basically everything that we do. You know, one wrong decision or, you know, somebody turning left in front of you, you know, things, things can be a lot different for sure. So where you're trying to take your organization, you're not going to do it by yourself. Most people won't. You have to have a team of people around you that. That respect you.

It's kind of like Patrick Lencioni's book the five dysfunctions of a team. Trust is at the bottom. It's into you.

Trust you. And I guess trust is a big word since we're usually.

The lack of trust is what tears teams apart and what apart and why teams never achieve their goals in the first place.

Required reading in our organization is the five dysfunctions of a team, the Trust edge and then Good to great or great by choice, which are just kind of wrapping up here. There's a book out there, it's called the Trust Edge. Better title is the edge you gain from trust, in my opinion. And it basically takes the approach that trust is the most important capital in business, if not life. Those are not new books, but I think the fundamentals are solid.

Yeah. Or Stephen Covey's.

And we're running our business now. Trust is basically everything that we do.

The Speed of trust is another good one that kind of takes the same principles and it kind of pushes them all together in that book.

I haven't read that one.

It's actually really good.

We have to read that one.

It's nothing new. Nothing new. But the way it takes them and puts them all together is actually pretty good. It just. It's kind of like Patrick Lencioni's book the five dysfunctions of a team. Trust is at the bottom. It's usually the lack of trust is what tears teams apart and what apart and why Summarizes a lot of those other books.

Yeah. And I tell people trust. I mean, a lot of our business.

Teams never achieve their goals in the first place.

Required reading in our organization is the five dysfunctions of a team. The the Trust Edge and then Good to great or great by choice, which are events, market. A little bit of a interesting way the market works. But it's so much based on trust. And if you're on time with your deliveries and if you're spot on with your quality, which you kind of have to be because our war fight. Those are not new books, but I think the fundamentals are solid.

Or Stephen Covey's the speed of trust is another good one that kind of takes the same principles and it. It kind of pushes them all together in that book.

I haven't read that one.

It's actually really good. It's nothing new. Nothing new. But the way it takes them and puts them all together is actually pretty good.

It just letters depend upon that. It's the trust. And you can, you can lose that trust really quick as well. And I share with my, my team, if, if you don't trust your spouse or your girlfriend, how do you ever get that back? If something happens that causes that trust to be gone, they're going, it'll never come back.

It's tough.

Okay. Same way with the customer summarizes a.

Lot of those other books.

Yeah. And I tell people trust. I mean a lot of our business and the fact it's probably easier to get it back with your girlfriend or than a customer spouse than the customer. Let's not defense market a little bit of a interesting way the market works. But it's so much based on trust.

Yeah.

And if you're on time with your deliveries and if you're spot on with your quality, which you kind of have to be because you know, our orphans put ourselves in that position.

Yeah. We, we were talking about an example even earlier today, that one that you, you had experienced yourself. Right. We, we've all been through that and some of us have been on the other side where we've tried to do that, tried to build that trust and we make a mistake and unfortunately we lose the trust. And it's very difficult to get back.

It is very, very difficult to get back.

But Jim, thank you for letters.

Depend upon that. It's the trust. And you can, you can lose that trust really quick as well. And I share with my, my team if, if you don't trust your spouse or your girlfriend, how do you ever get that back? If something happens that causes that trust to be gone, they're going, it'll never come back.

It's tough.

Okay. Same way with the customer going through the gauntlet.

And thanks for having me. We have more, but I'm not going to ask them today. I'm going to save them for the, for the next person. But I think there's some great snippets of information that in great bites not only when we share this full video, but also when we put little bits and pieces out on the Internet as well. But it's been another Leadership Live. Thank you for joining. Again, if you've got a topic or if you've got a number of questions that you want us to ask or you want to come on the show yourself, make sure you reach out to us. You can get us on social media.

In fact, it's probably easier to get it back with your girlfriend. Or than a customer, spouse than the customers. Let's not put ourselves in that position.

Yeah. We were talking about an example even earlier today, that one that you, you had experienced yourself. Right. We've all been through that. And some of us have been on the other side where we've tried to do that, tried to build that trust. And we make a mistake and unfortunately, can text me, you can call me. You don't have to text 734-837-8500. Make sure you sign up to be notified when a new episode drops. Be a couple every single month. This has been another episode. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time.