How to Get Started In a New Real Estate Market | The Real Estate Revolution | Episode 5

Coming up on this episode of the Real Estate Revolution.

That's when production started slipping, quality started slipping, and I didn't do the work up front as far as contracts and agreements and having those things in place to be able to hold them accountable from a, even a legal or a financial standpoint. So I really didn't have any teeth when it came to, hey, I paid you for this. But it was only done halfway or, you know, you're. You're a month pass over busting the timeline. And I don't really have a good way to hold you accountable other than not giving you more work.

This episode is so full of great questions and great strategies. You are not going to want to miss this. Make sure you listen till the end. Welcome back to another episode of Limitless Real Estate Podcast. I'm Steve Valentine, and this is where we focus on wealth, real estate, life and legacy. And today, I've got a newer investor to the Phoenix market. Well, not new, new. Sam Thurmond. And he's originally from Georgia. He's got a lot of experience and, you know, notes and flipping homes and rental properties. And so now he's got some questions just regarding how do I really break into the Phoenix market and where to start and what it looks like. So we've been jamming a little bit off air. So, Sam, thanks for joining me and being willing to do this because I think that your story and some of the things you're going to share are going to help other people, you know, that have some of the same questions and concerns, you know, as they're going into new markets. Right. So this is really one of those things like this can apply to any market you're relocating to or whatnot. So pay attention. Let's dive in. Thanks for joining me, Sam.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Steve. I'm really. I really like the format that you have going here and just having folks on to ask you questions. I think that's awesome.

Yeah. And by the way, that's a bananas whiteboard in the background. It looks like the way the inside of my head looks like all the time.

I was thinking that it kind of looks like a. Just like a backdrop to make it look like I'm like the mad scientist. But that is literally like my. For this week, so.

Yeah.

Yeah. Need some help?

Well, you've. You've got the word unstoppable up there, which is a really good book.

That's it. Well, awesome. Well, yeah, so just jump into some questions.

Yeah, yeah. Wherever you want to start.

Yeah.

So I But actually, first, before you start, will you just give a little background? You know, I kind of fluffed it a little bit, but give a little background as to what you've been doing and where you're wanting to go.

So my wife and I relocated to.

To.

To Scottsdale about two years ago. We were living in Georgia. I'm from Georgia originally. I started wholesaling in Georgia into the end of 2016. Had a couple partners. We. We went through the wholesaling part of the business, flipping rental properties, buying subject to owner finance, creating notes, and did that for about five or six years together with these two other partners. And then at the beginning of 2022, we started trying to divest and untangle that. That business that we had built over those five years. And we're just now kind of getting to the end of that, which, if anybody's in a partnership, you know, I would. I. I would definitely recommend starting with the end in mind. So you're not trying to figure that out at the end of the game. Kind of like we did. We. We heard. We heard somebody like me saying this when we started, but, you know, you. You kind of wish you would have. But at any rate, we got to the point where it just didn't make sense. The partnership kind of ran its course. We all were comfortable to do our own thing, and if you can do it by yourself, then you don't necessarily need partners to. To. To do it with you in a lot of cases. But so. Or. Sorry, go ahead.

Yeah, let's, let's. Let's touch on that just for a second, because I think that's really a big piece that a lot of people go into business thinking they need a partner. And the reality is when you start a business, you're better off. Okay, I can be a business on my own, but if I need to partner maybe on a specific project or something of that nature, then you can bring somebody in where, you know, once that project's done, it's gone. But, you know, I've always been one where the businesses that my wife and I own and things like that, they've always been, specifically, we own them. If we want to get a partner on something specific, great. But the partnership, what it does is actually restricts your ability to pivot in different markets, right, because you're worried about what the other partner's doing, the income that's coming in, everybody's bitching about something. And sometimes, obviously some partnerships work really well. But I think, you know, if I'm in this business or you're starting this business, I would think, just like Sam said. Right. You got to think about divorce in mind. Right. So what is the worst case scenario? What happens to all of this and how do we navigate through the end in mind when we start? Because when we start, it's like, you know, when we were kids and we're building a tree house. It's all fun and games until something gets broken or somebody gets hurt and then, you know, everybody's demons come out.

Yeah, that's. That's exactly right. And I started it with two of my best friends and you know, we're still friends, but, you know, it took a toll on the relationship, certainly. But you're exactly right in that my approach moving forward is I will definitely partner on deals, but there's no reason to. For me to be married to someone across other than my wife. When it comes to business, you know, on everything that comes across, comes across my desk, it's much, much better to say, hey, if it makes sense to partner on this deal, let's partner on this deal. But that's kind of the extent to it. So there's. Once that's done.

Yeah, that's great advice. The other thing too, that's important about partnerships, when it comes down to it, is that when you know, you're in the position that Wendy and I are in or the position that Sam and his wife are in, when you, when you're the sole owner of the business, it gives you more flexibility from different things that you want to utilize as tax write offs, like cars or houses or different things, which is really hard to do when you have a partnership because everybody wants to go in different directions. The P and Ls, everybody's focused on them. So it's really one of those things. The whole point in entrepreneurship is that it does give you some flexibility in the way you run your taxes, your business and those pieces.

Yeah, absolutely. Because otherwise you're just having to divide the pie. And the pie is never going to be perfectly equal either. And it's complicated.

Exactly.

And that's where you can kind of get. Have some issues with partners.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, where do you want to dive into first?

I mean, it's pretty broad question to start off with, but what would you say to someone like me who's coming from. I did. I didn't really go into the Atlanta market as much. I was more of a tertiary kind of market kind of guy. Smaller. Started in Athens, Georgia and went to Greenville, South Carolina, which is turning into a really strong market. Popular market there between Atlanta and Charlotte. But still it's not in Atlanta. It's not a Phoenix. It's not one of these highly, highly saturated markets. What to you are the keys for someone who is coming in as an outsider in a highly competitive market? What are the relationships that I need? What do I need to watch out for those sorts of things?

Okay, one question that I think is very interesting on the wholesaling side. Did you ever get a real estate license? Okay, so you still don't have a real estate license. Correct. Okay. So one of the things that I think from a standpoint that a lot of wholesalers miss, you know, in this piece of advice, and this is probably the first thing that I would do, is they're like, somebody has told them, don't get a real estate license because it's going to add liability, right? So they just stay away from it. But the reality is, is that if you don't have to get a real estate license to go show people homes and those types of things, you could if you wanted to. But if you looked at what a real estate license really provides in any market, it's giving you access to the mls, right? Which is where you can get a lot of research and data, right? That's the best data points possible. It's also giving you the opportunity to say, hey, I'm an investor with a real estate license, or somebody's inviting you into their home to talk about selling it, right? So we have the legitimate way to advertise for those types of things. And so I think where some people like really focus on that liability piece is that sometimes I think some wholesalers, not all wholesalers, they operate in a very gray area where they're not always truthful. In fact, I had one this week that I was going to look at a house from a wholesaler. He's like, make sure you tell the seller you're a contractor doing a bid for him. I'm like, why do I have to tell him? So he doesn't know you're wholesaling it. I'm like, so you're operating in a shady character way. And again, it's not all people, but I think that I've learned over the years how to tie my real estate license into wholesaling, into flipping into rentals. And it gives me a very well rounded business model when it comes down to it. And I've never done wholesaling. I've wholesaled a few things to some people that I know, but I'm always the closer. Like we Always find money and we close on the deals. So I would really consider, if you're in this market, get a real estate license. Right? It's easy. It's 90 hours of school. Get a license, hang out with the brokers. It's not going to charge you much. Here's the other opportunity that might be missed on the wholesale side. If you talk to your neighbor Sam, and he's like, yeah, you know, I'm thinking about selling my house, but, you know, it's a train wreck. I inherited it. And you give him a number and he's like, yeah, that number is not going to really work. I'm just going to go put it on the market. What did you lose? Right. You lost an opportunity to create income on the real estate side in one of two ways. If you don't want to do the retail side of it, why aren't you partnering with somebody like myself where you're like, hey, dude, I can't buy this house for this, but I can refer it to you as a listing because I've talked you up and I have this relationship. And now you're making 3, 4, $5,000 on the referral fee without having to touch it. Right. Which sometimes is almost as much as we make on wholesale deals. Right. For all the work that we do. Yeah. So I think that's. That's one thing that I would really consider.

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny, it came up with my wife and I last night of, hey, should you get a. Should you get your license? Should I get my license? And you're exactly right. I think the recommendation early on was don't worry about getting your license or there's not a lot of benefit to getting your license. So it was something that I just kind of pushed off. But now looking back over time.

Right.

I really see. No, it would. It definitely wouldn't have limited me in any way up until this point, but there are definitely opportunities that were missed because I didn't have my license. Or, I mean, shoot, I could have listed all my own properties, all my own flips over this time.

Right?

Yeah.

Right. So that, that's one thing. Right. So you get a little bit more control over it. So here's the other question I would have on that from your side is that when you were wholesaling in Atlanta and some of these other areas, or, you know, when you were doing virtual wholesaling, how many seller no's did you get that you potentially could have converted to a referral fee?

Oh, yeah, tons. Probably a CRM. Way more than the yeses. Sure, certainly.

So they're just, they just become dead. If, if I only have one way to do this for a seller, that's the only way I can get paid. But if I have multiple options for them, how do you, how do you appeal better to them? By giving them those options. And that's how, that's how I run my real estate business now is, you know, when I go into somebody that wants to sell, you know, I go through and I show them like, hey, have you thought about keeping as a rental? Have you thought about selling it? Do you want to sell it as is? Do you want to repair, put it on the market? So now they've, they've opened up that I'm kind of the one stop to give them every opportunity that they want and then they get to pick their own adventure.

So is that something? Is that something? Are you taking those listings and you're listing them yourself or are you referring them into your broker? Okay, nope.

Yep, I'm taking them. So a lot of times when I meet with a seller, I will go through, you know, we go through the option of, okay, do you want to keep it as a rental? No. Okay, here's your three options. Right, let's. And the funny thing is, is that it doesn't matter what condition the house is. We've all seen the online buyers over time, right? They've created a convenience model. So if we don't offer the convenience model, then they're never going to know it until they call somebody else. So I always give my sellers, based on the conversation, three options and based on the condition of the property. You know, sometimes the houses are really nice and it's kind of like, hey, we can sell it on the open market for this, or you could sell it as is for this with no closing cost, commissions, those types of things, and make it convenient. Which would you prefer? And what's amazing is when you give that option, some sellers are like, hey, you know what? I inherited the house. This is a great windfall. I don't want to mess with this stuff. I'll take that offer. Right. Or, you know, I've got three siblings involved. One of them really needs money. So we really need to do what's right for the family and get the maximum amount of money by putting it on the market. So either way we're winning and we're creating a win win strategy for everybody involved.

Okay, so, so you just have a lot more options and you have control of those options as opposed to passing them on to somebody.

Correct? Correct. Correct.

So are you in that process? Are you doing any. Well, let me ask this question first because it's never been very clear to me why would someone recommend to not have a license? Like what is the exposure that you're opening yourself up to if you are an investor, wholesaler, whatever, and you're an agent?

Because here's, here's my opinion and this is where you get from the broker traditional side of the real estate business. And it's the misconception of what the fiduciary responsibility is of the agent. Right? So if I'm an agent, I go into a house and I buy that house. Some agents, which I used to fight with this one broker all the time about the conversation. If I go in there and the seller is, let's say they're behind on their payments and you know, they really just want to go and I give them the greatest price, that solves their need. Right now that is my fiduciary responsibility. Okay. It doesn't require me to get the maximum dollar out of the property, which is where most people tend to like, you know, misinterpret the fiduciary relationship. The fiduciary relationship is meant to help guide them to the very best solution and a win win situation for what they're in. And here's the deal, there's so many variables. Condition of the house, repairs that are needed, what is the family situation, what is the money situation. So unless you know all of those pieces, you truly can't give them the options as a fiduciary of here are the best things for you. And by the way, you know, I am telling them I am an investor, I am going to take this off your plate. And my intention is to either keep it, build wealth or make money on it. I'm not sure what that's going to look like because I could also lose money on it. Right. I lost a lot of money on different houses last year that the sellers got out right at the nick of time and I took it in the pants, right. I couldn't go back and sue those people. Right. And so that's some of my, my, my opinion when it comes down to it. But I think if you are operating in a real estate capacity from an honest character and integrity, then you're going to win every time and everybody is going to be okay with the outcome.

That's a good point. I think that that's, that's just the case no matter what you do and what you're doing. If you're always operating from a place of integrity, you're going to be just fine.

Yes.

So one of my, one of my big strategies and the one that's honestly worked the best for me so far out here is the creative financing approach. And I mean, we're in a place in the market where that's just becoming stronger and stronger as demand is kind of has fallen, kind of leveling off, it seems. Any entanglement there as far as subject to offers or anything like that?

No, I mean, we, we still do plenty of those. You know, I do them. The broker kind of frowns on it. But in. Some brokers will frown on it. They don't want anything to do with it. But again, a lot of times I'm doing those direct with somebody, usually somebody that I know. Right. And so it's kind of building that relationship and that trust with those people, you know, doing the seller carrybacks. And most brokers are not going to care so much about the seller carryback because that's pretty much cut and dry. It's the wraps and the subject to's and the creative craziness where it's like, do we really want to be a part of that from that standpoint? So, and again, you know, we run all of our. Whenever we write a contract with a seller, we do it on the state contract. So in Arizona, the AAR documents and we run it through the brokerage and the contract discloses the representation, it discloses the intention, it discloses that we're licensed agents. It discloses we intend to make money on this. So it discloses everything in there. And, and it becomes a for sale by owner agreement when we deal with somebody directly. Because with a for sale by owner or an unrepresented seller agreement, it cuts off my agency, right. So when somebody calls, you know, they have something called implied agency. So when I go in there and we start talking about value and different things and then they decide to sell the house. The way I kind of cut my agency is that I go through and use an unrepresented seller agreement and which means there is no representation in this transaction. It's a for sale by owner. I'm still writing it, it's still going to go through my brokerage. And you know, sometimes I'll raise the price to cover a commission or whatever the case may be. But we come down to the net agreement and we sign that contract. They understand they're a for sale by owner and this is how we're going to do it and operate it.

That's interesting. That's. I've never even heard of that. That aspect of it. Okay. Yeah, interesting. So how about. What about on the construction side? Do you have any sort of contractor's license of any sort or.

Yes. So years ago, when we started flipping houses, right? I mean, my wife and I have flipped almost a thousand homes in the Valley. We were doing it with no license. It was kind of like the owner, builder, renovator, blah, blah, blah. Well, as my wife's reputation started to increase, she'd get calls from other real estate agents like, hey, are you doing this? And then now she's not owner, builder, so she's, you know, she's violating with not renovating with. Without permits, without the contractor's license and all those things. And so we decided that it would just be smarter to really set that up as a business. And she's really a subcontractor, right? So we talked a little bit about offline, about developing relationships with people. And so one of the things that has really been a benefit to the construction side of things is my wife's ability to create relationships with the vendors. And again, she has the license, she has the insurance. She's also very skilled in what she does as far as a renovation, you know, as far as a gc, right? And. But we've worked with the same crews for eight years. Same framers, tile guys, electrician, plumber. All those guys are the same guys. And then she's got a list of other vendors like, you know, our Granite Distribution and our Granite Fabricators, our glass people. So we've created that list over time. And one of the things that I see in the investor world that is really, really important, these guys are family to us, and they will bend over backwards for us if we. If you treat your subs with respect and dignity and you take care of them, what I see, the number one mistake I see of investors is, is they want to beat the shit out of the contractors so they can make more money. And we don't believe in that. You know, there's times when they miss something on a bid. That happens when we're all running and gunning. We don't blame them or make them eat it or just like, look, we don't want you to lose money. We might ask them to do it at cost because they missed it, but I don't want to take money out of their families. Right? That. That is not the way we want to work. It goes back to that character and integrity. So the more we have done that with our Guys, the more they will bend over backwards. We are their first priority in everything. They don't charge us for the nickel and dime stuff. When something small got missed on things and, you know, we have parties for them once a year. We take them up north, we let them use our second home. I mean, like I said, these guys are, they're family to Wendy and she treats them that way. And when I come on a job site, I love messing with them. I mean, they're freaking hysterical. And you know, we just, we just have a great fun relationship all the way around. And guess what? Those guys don't have to go out and look for work 90% of the time because we have them so busy. But when they are doing work for other people or they're out and about, guess what they're doing. Who do you think the first person is? If something comes across, it's like, yeah, I'm thinking about selling my house. They're like, hey, call this guy, right? My electrician sent me one yesterday and I went and looked at it today and it's got my wheels turning. My head looks like your whiteboard for what's possible with this house. So the contractors is really setting expectations, talking to somebody and continuing to work the relationship over time until it builds into that, that team aspect. Right, and that family aspect. What has your experience been thus far these couple of years here in Arizona?

Well, I don't have a lot of experience with contractors here in Arizona. I. What I think we were talking before we started recording was I had a really good setup back in the south with, with some contractors, but that was when we were able to go on site, be on site, do some QC ourselves. Whereas the longer that we were away or doing everything virtually, that's when production started slipping, quality started slipping, and I didn't do the work up front as far as contracts and agreements and having those things in place to be able to hold them accountable from a, even a legal or a financial standpoint. So I really didn't have any teeth when it came to, hey, I paid you for this. But it was only done halfway or, you know, you're, you're a month pass over busting the timeline. And I don't really have a good way to hold you accountable other than not giving you more work. But you know, when I had five projects go in with the same guy, that gets pretty messy when you're trying to, well, she already gave him a draw on this one and I'm already X number of dollars in on this one. So trying to hammer him on this one. It's just. It just got messy. So that's been a big challenge for me. And I think the way that it has progressed is when you're starting out, you're kind of begging for people to help you a bit. And then you get. So that's the quality of, of work that you're getting. And then every iteration gets a little bit better and a little bit better. As you get better at what you're doing, you start to hire better people, get more organized, do better work, and you both, as you get better, the people that you work with tend to get better. So I think that I've just been going through that growing process when it comes to contractors, and now I'm to the point, kind of like you said, I just. I would much rather pay for good work than pay for bad work that I'm going to have to pay twice on because I'm going to have to redo it.

And yeah, we, we learned early on a couple of things. Is one, the contracts are important, right. And you know, we tried early on we were like, oh, we're going to a couple of different reasons. We're like, yeah, we're going to buy everything at Home Depot on our credit cards so we can get the points. And. And then you drop it off of the job and half of it ends up missing. And so that didn't work, so we stopped doing that. And so we started to find contractors that could actually run their business based on draws and deposits. If you're working with contractors that are like, I want 50 or 60% up front and then I want more, you know, we started laying it out where the guys get, they get a full bid and a scope. When we ink the job, they sign their agreements and they get a 25% deposit. And then based on the work that is completed, they're able to get another deposit, which is another 25% and then another 25%. The last 25% is held until it's done. So we just structured it to where these guys had to learn how to run their business if they wanted the amount of business we were going to do with them, because we weren't going to be all of a sudden paid up on 10 jobs that weren't complete, because that's a disaster for everybody. Yeah, and sometimes it's. It. Sometimes it's hard because you might have a really good contractor that is good at what they do. Let's say they're a great electrician, but they can't manage their Money. And that's the problem with a lot of these smaller contractors are really good at what they do. They suck at the business side. And, like, you bleed for him. You're like, dude, if you could get your business side together, you could crush this. But you're so terrible over here. But you're so good over here. Sometimes we put up with the talent, and it kind of bites us in the butt on the other side.

Exactly. Exactly what happened to me. I had had a guy who was. I don't know if you've read the E. Myth, but it's the whole process of, you know, you start out doing. Doing whatever it is you do, building houses, and you build houses to the best of your ability, and you put out a fantastic product, and then everybody sees the product that you create, and everybody wants to use you. And then your business grows and you hire people, and then the quality goes down the toilet. You have to fire everybody and get small again. That's exactly what happened to us, was we had a guy that did really great work, and we started sending him a ton of work, and then other people started sending him a ton of work, and he just couldn't manage the scale, couldn't manage the money the right way. So he was Rob and Peter to pay Paul on projects and that sort of thing, until it got pretty nasty and we just had to kind of go our separate ways. And my problem is, is I tend to be loyal to a fault. Like I want to be. I want to be partners in this. I wanted to. I want all of us to succeed. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. And I didn't trust my gut and kind of break ties when I should have until we got to a place where we were just, you know, we were losing tons of money as a result. But, you know, expensive. I call them student loans. You know, you're gonna pay for education one way or another.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think. I think that that is the interesting piece. When you look at something, it's like, you know, it's always, you know, the rear view mirror theory, where, you know, you're looking at a contractor, and this one is going to be $10,000 less on $100,000 renovation. But if you paid the extra $10,000, you would get somebody very reputable that could get it done and maybe done faster. And, yes, it's $10,000 less profit. But did. What did it really cost you to save that $10,000? And that's where a lot of people's mindset do not trigger when it comes down to that, they're only looking at the $10,000. And then all of a sudden, like you said, they're two months late. Right. How much money is that in hard money? Utilities? What if it was last year in 2022, and two months late meant you missed multiple offers. How much money did that cost you? So that is like, you have to really think that through as to what is really the cost of having a good contractor at the end of the day, because it's also cost in time and energy. Right. If you're constantly having to micromanage and go check up on something and wonder when the hell something's going to get done, how much time is that costing you from not finding another deal or those types of things?

Yeah, the opportunity cost is astronomical. I mean, the lost sleep and everything, just the mental space that it's taken up. Half of these are just problems that I'm trying to fix versus moving forward and finding new opportunities. So, yeah, I'm definitely of the mindset now where I want the right partners. I want the people that are going to do it right the first time that I can trust, that I can build with and pay them accordingly because it's worth it.

Yeah.

So what?

And last thing I would say that is that. The last thing that I would say on that is that we're really fortunate. But, you know, because my wife obviously is the general contractor, but it is a separate business. She runs her own business, all those things. She has her costs, or PNLs. It's run as a separate business. So I always look at it as I'm the investor, and I always am. I'm the one buying the house. I'm the one doing the numbers. And then when I meet with Wendy, the, you know, boss lady, Red Contracting, we go through the design, she gives me a full bid. I approve it, I fund it, but I don't have to go back after our initial thing to go check the property to see when things are done. And that's the kind of contractor that you're looking for. And I do, which is really interesting. Somebody be like, oh, yeah, you know, you're not paying a contractor. Well, I am because my wife charges me 25% over and above on the subs to manage that project to cover her costs and things. So I pay just like an investor does. Now, granted, the only benefit is, is that that 25% goes back into our pocket. But we did separate it so that, you know, when you and I have a conversation, the Only leg up is that I happen to be sleeping with a contractor. Right. Versus most people. They're. They're paying their contractor, and if they're doing a good job, you should be ecstatic that you have a contractor that you don't have to worry about.

Yeah, that's. That's fantastic. And here's another. Here's a question for you on that, because my wife and I are. My. My wife and I have tried to work together for a long time now, and it's just kind of. We either miss each other. We weren't in the right headspace, or we weren't in the right place in our businesses or whatever it is. But now, having gone through the partnership with, you know, with some other guys outside of my family, and realizing that, hey, the person I need to partner with the most is my wife, the mo. That's going to be the most beneficial partnership that I can have and getting that through my fixed goal. But it's been challenging. You know, we have similar personalities. We bump heads. We're very stubborn, and we think things should be done a certain way. How have you guys navigated being married and working together?

That's a really good question. It is, definitely. We've been married 23 years at the end of March. We have gone through different iterations, and Wendy and I have very different backgrounds. So I don't know what the background is of you and your wife. Wendy came from the restaurant, hotel management. She ran a couple of restaurants out here. That's how we met. Then she got into the real estate business. So we both did real estate together, but separate. We were never going on listing appointments together or showing buyers together. We separated it. She would work with her clients, I would work with mine. But we at least came together at night and talked about what was going on and learning from each other. And then as time went on, I stayed in the real estate side of things. And she always did what it took to support what I was doing. So when we did all the foreclosures, she took on the accounting role because we had a couple hundred thousand dollars out in reimbursables to the banks for utilities and repairs and things. And so nobody's going to track your money better than you do. Right. And so she took on that role. Rather than me hiring somebody and having to look over it, she took it on and was a rock star with it, you know, because that was a way to support the business. And we found our different lanes where we were really good at our strengths. And then as time Went on, and we got into, you know, the REO business started to. So she was kind of wrapping up her side, and it's kind of like, what's next? And that was when I started looking at the flipping and the investment side. And I remember the first house that we bought with a partner. She's like, yeah, I'll take this on. And I remember her, like, painting the fireplace and designing it and checking the colors and going, we should do this. And she found her niche and what she really, really enjoyed. And then she has the patience of a saint. And she is a. She doesn't get mad. In 23 years, she's never been pissed at me. Well, except for, like, once or twice. But she doesn't show a lot of emotion. And she just, like, she's very cool, calm, and collective. And so that's what made her really good on the contracting side and in our business. So she is like a board that I, you know, a backboard that I get to bounce things off. And it comes back. It's like, hey, maybe you should do it this way? And so we've really learned to step back and help each other in our perspective spaces and figure out the strengths and weaknesses that really make sense in order to work together. And we've also learned that, hey, during the day, like, I will tell you that there are times when I call her and I'm like, hey, we are not having a husband wife conversation. We're having a contractor investor relationship conversation. And I'm really pissed off. So you need to separate the personal side and understand where I'm coming from so that we can resolve this. Right. So that is important to understand. Does that answer some of your questions?

Absolutely. I think my takeaway is, are clear lanes.

What.

Where can you maximize your strength? Where can she maximize her strength? Figuring out what that is. So you're both running in your lane and moving things forward and then being able to separate personal from business when the time is those times come, because, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The ultimate goal is to separate the lanes. But then, you know, it's kind of like, here's the example. You guys are both walking on the same street, but on opposite sides on the sidewalk. And at the end of the day, you want to come together, you know. You know, when it comes down to all that, and it kind of makes sense from that standpoint. But I think it's also like, you know, you look at, what are the things that your wife loves to do? What are her strengths? Like, Wendy, when she started, like, enjoying the design process, she got really good, and then some of her superpowers became, like, how to convert a floor plan inside the walls without tearing it down. And she started seeing things that other people couldn't see. And I'm like, wow, that's amazing. Cool. You found. You found your superpower, and I want to support that. And then it's turned into, you know, the general contracting piece where she does part of my stuff. But then she also is being referred on a regular basis to some pretty massive renovations right now because she's built a name for herself in that space that's very cool. So it's something that she owns and she is proud of.

Yeah. And I can see my wife heading in a very similar direction. She's aesthetically, she. She is on point. She really knows design. She knows branding and marketing. Her. She's a musician, but her. On the other side, she's done a lot of branding and marketing, started a marketing business. So I think her design aesthetic, both for home design as well as branding and social media, all that sort of thing, she could really or will really run with that side of the house. And I'm more of the deal analyzer, number cruncher, kind of. Does this make sense? Does it not make sense? And I think she gets frustrated with me because it's, you know, you gotta. You gotta look at a hundred deals before you find one that starts to make sense. And she wants to go, go, go, and I, we need to meet somewhere in the middle. But I think it's. We're gaining that momentum right now, now that we're at least focusing on, hey, this is what we're going to make work. This is the partnership that's going to really benefit us in the long run. So we're excited about it.

And I think some of that, too, though, on the deal analyzing, you know, the advice I would give there is that, you know, how in detail are you going at it with her saying, hey, these are the deals, here's why they don't make sense. Right? Because, yeah, we could blow and go, but this also is a lot of risk. And if we lose money, we don't want to lose money. Right. So understanding that, hey, we're not doing something unless there's a minimum of $50,000 profit in it, because it becomes a cost of lost opportunity if we're spread out so thin and the most amazing deal comes up and we can't capture it. All these little deals that we tried to blow and go, rather than being patient, become problematic, and they become cost of Lost opportunity at the end of the day.

Exactly. And she's understanding that more and more. I mean she knows way more than most people do just having been around for the last five, six years. But we really, you know, we get on the whiteboard, I teach her how to analyze deals. So she had, I mean she doesn't. That's not her strength or that's not really what she's interested in.

Sure.

But she knows that it adds a lot of, going to add a lot of value and to know how to do that and be aware of how that works. So yeah, we've spent.

Right. But if her, but if her strength in the cosmetic aspect and maybe even the construction side, that's where Wendy brings the strength is because I can get really dialed in on what it's going to cost us to do something. Right. And she's always reaming me. She's like, hey, you know, I remember having the conversation and her going, look, listen to me like for the last time, for the love of God. She's like a 1200 square foot house and a 2500 square foot house. A kitchen is a kitchen, a bathroom is a bathroom. They are not that much different just because the house is bigger, because you might have a few more cabinets, a little bit more counter space. But the only real variables are maybe a little bit higher in the upgrades depending on the price and maybe the paint and flooring because it's a bigger home. But other than that, you know, if you looked at a house, 2500 square feet, the whole bathroom is probably the same size as a whole bathroom in a 1200 square foot house. She's like, so, so the cost is about the same. That's why, you know, when you look at the bigger homes or the smaller homes, you got it. You got to do the variables on it.

Yeah, there's so many nuances when it comes to evaluating, evaluating deals because you know, people, I mean I get like doing price per square foot and that sort of thing just to kind of get a, an idea. But like you said a three, two, that's 1800 square foot versus a three, two, that's 20002100 square foot. There's, there will be difference in cost, but not people. Sure, most people are going to look at that. Buyers and buyers are going to look at that the same for the most part. It's not going to be that big of a difference. Absolutely, absolutely.

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