2nd Guessing Your Writing

Hello, and welcome to the StoryGrid podcast. This is a show dedicated to helping you become a better writer. I'm your host, Tim Grohl, and I am a struggling writer trying to figure out how to tell a story that works. Joining me shortly is Sean Coyne. He is the creator of StoryGrid, the author of the book StoryGrid, and an editor with over 25 years experience. In this episode, I start out asking some specific questions about issues I'm having with my continued rewrite of the threshing. But then we get into the movie the Green Book, which is a movie I recently watched and really enjoyed, and we talked about some specific moments in that and analyzed that, but also just talked about a little bit of race and looking at these stories in a bigger cultural context. So I think it's a good thing for us to talk about and be aware of and start touching on. So it's a great episode. I think you'll really enjoy it. Let's jump in and get started. So, Sean, I got back on the horse this week and started working through my scenes again. And I didn't take 45 minutes every day, but I did take three days out of the last week and work on it. And I'm trying to get back into it. And I discovered as I was working through it that I think there's two things that I think are making this harder for me I just wanted to run through with you. So the first is I'm constantly worried that I'm not weaving it together the right way. I feel like within the last couple years, I got to a point where I could consistently write 1500 words at work, but now that I'm trying to have 60,000 words that all work together, I'm constantly. What's making me go slow is I keep going back to all the different parts of the book and rechecking to see if I'm writing this the right way to work with those. And I don't know if that's the right way or the wrong way to go about this, because almost everything else we've done, you're like, don't worry about any of that. Just work on what's in front of you. But now it's like, okay, I'm working through it. I'm like. And I keep having. Because I have, you know, 12 different versions of this book I've written that are all in my head, so I can't remember what I ended up with on any given scene. So I keep having to go back and then, like, there's entire characters that I either need to get rid of or weave through more of the book. And so I keep going back. And I think that actually leads to the second thing, which is, like, I have this pressure that this is supposed to be the version of the book that's like the final version. Like, we got to clean it up and edit it and whatever. But, like, it was kind of like when I finished Running Down a Dream and I sent it to you, I was like, this is the book. And it was like, we had to clean it up, but I knew the book was done. And, like, I think that's what's driving a lot of my resistance to finishing it is, like, I don't know if I'm doing this right, so I'll actually turn in a finished, like, a ready to go manuscript. So again, in the past, I would just be like, nope, don't worry about that. Just write the scene in front of you. Just whatever. But this is supposed to be the version where this scene works with the other, you know, 60 scenes or whatever. So that's where I'm at with it. Like, I'm making progress. Like, I finished some scenes, but, like, I'm just not. I got done. I'm like. I don't know. Like, I feel zero confidence that it's working the way it's supposed to be working.

Well, that doesn't concern me. I mean, that's the way it usually goes in. In the final stages, is that I'm actually working on another project where I'm facing the same stuff. And the way I've been handling it is to put aside all the previous work that I've done. So all my spreadsheets, all my outlines, all of my stuff, and I'm literally trying to stay on the ground as I'm editing, you know, the 25th draft and saying, okay, let me put myself in the position of a reader. What would follow next? If I'm talking about this scene, what is the scene that they will expect next? And do I want to deliver that scene or do I want to mix it up and put in a different scene to sort of break their mode of experience for a moment and then get them back on track? Well, there's going to be some mistakes in there, but what you're going to find is that you have the access to editors, proofreaders, and copy editors that are going to be able to catch all those problems. So really focusing on the details of the specific things that you're dropping or it's thematically doesn't feel right is a mistake. Your goal really is to keep your attention on the line by line writing and add detail that will further establish the world and just get through the entire manuscript so that the scenes are sort of fuller, for lack of a better word, fuller with the details that you provided. You know, I'm just remembering the early scenes that you rewrote at the very beginning of the story. And they were much richer and filled with more detail and you actually enjoyed doing that. So it's always a good idea that when you find yourself grinding to head back to a task that brings more excitement and joy. And adding little details about, you know, what kind of needle they stick into her head is kind of more fun than worrying about if you had. If, you know, one of the characters is present here or not, or, you know, if you're not establishing them in the right way. Just this draft is really about, you know, adding resolution. So, you know, like back in the old days when I was growing up, there was no such thing as a recording device for television. And television was three channels and. And the resolution was terrible. So everything was kind of fady and weird, but we didn't really care because it was television. And then in the 80s, this VCR came around, right? And so you would use this VCR and you put these video cassette tapes into this machine and it would tape television shows at a pretty solid resolution that was more detailed than it was before. And then then DVDs came online and the resolution increased. Now we have these high definition televisions that have like 10,000 pixels per cubic inch or something. I don't even know. So if you want to use that sort of metaphor, the process that you're doing now is you're moving your VCR tape into digital video. So you're adding detail and little bits and pieces that are fun to, you know, the core narrative that you've already established. So you don't need to mess with sort of the engine of the story because we spent three years engineering that thing. And you know, I pretty committed to the fact that you have the building blocks, the engine works, it fires, there's plenty of action in it. I mean, I haven't read it in a very long time, but I always felt very secure that it was getting to the place where it needed to be. You have nice twists, you have really solid action in it. The final scenes that you came up were terrific. So instead of worrying so much about the continuity from scene to scene, just I give you a pass, I release you from that anxiety, okay? So just say, oh, I'm doing that thing again where I'm worried about whether or not this guy was in the scene or not. And Sean said it's fine to just forget about it. So I'm going to keep forgetting about it and just go line by line and add more detail, add more analogy, add more little fun metaphors.

What do you mean by that?

Well, you know, this is a terrible example, but, you know, he ate like a, you know, a pack rat eating straw. You know, those sort of. Sort of simile metaphor stuff. And I just gave a terrible one. But it's kind of fun sometimes to think of little things that you hadn't really. You thought of putting in, like, physical descriptions. Charles Dickens was great at this. And the way he would describe somebody's hat would tell you so much about who that character was that it was, you know, his hat was in such a derelict, you know, shape that, you know, the slightest wind would blow the last seam apart or something, or whatever. But fun little stuff like that, as well as descriptive things about the environment of. You want to juxtapose the ordinary and extraordinary. I don't want to. I don't want to get too much into it because now I'm getting into the same thing that you were worried about is like, whoa, if I establish the ordinary world in such a way that is as interesting as the. You know, don't do that. Just go through the thing, tighten up the lines again. Try and make it as cleanly your voice as possible, adding in any kind of fun bits and pieces that you think of in the moment.

Okay, I'll just keep doing that. And so really still just looking at it scene by scene, like, not over complicating, wondering if the scene is working in the whole thing.

Yeah, don't worry about that. Because generally what you're trying to deliver to your editor is something that they can spend, say, eight to 15 hours on reading, going through and then coming up with a checklist of things that you're going to have to fix for the final, you know, delivery to the copy editor. So worrying about tone or theme or the general skeletal structure of the story is not worth your time now because you put a lot of energy already into that. So. And so have I. It's lucky that I'll be your editor so that when you send it to me, I'm going to read it fresh and then I'll make notes as I'm reading because I. I am very familiar with the story. That will be very much checklists of Things for you to fix in the final round. So that I would make a Note, like, scene 15 is still not working very well. You know, the turning point isn't clear. Please heighten it. I thought we agreed that the turning point would be this. And it seems like it's just sort of fizzing. And that way you'll go, oh, okay, I'm gonna have to tweak that. And then you don't have to worry about scene one through 14. You just fix scene 15, right?

Yeah. Okay, I can do that. I also wanted to mention I watched the Green Book. Have you seen that movie yet?

Yeah.

Well, what'd you think of the movie?

I enjoyed the movie. I liked it, and I found it to be really entertaining. And then upon reflection, because I know there was some controversy about it and.

Oh, I didn't. I didn't know that well.

Yeah, I mean, the controversy is more of a political controversy. That is actually a fascinating controversy that is worth talking about. But if you want to talk about just story principles can do it that way. What do you. What did you.

Yeah, well, first of all, it was the main character, the driver was the guy from Lord of the Rings.

Right.

He played Eragon.

Yeah.

Vigor. Yeah. I like pointing out to my wife that she thought he was so cute, and now he's this old fat guy. And to just keep in mind that's probably what's gonna happen to, like, you know, Chris, whatever, the. Whoever plays Thor in Marvel. So that was kind of fun. I'm like, you think he's cute now? That's what he's going to look like in a few years anyway. A couple things I noticed about it that I thought were cool were the way that they established the driver. They established his character through his actions early on that paid off later. I thought they did really good with that when he got offered to work for the mob for a couple months, and he turned that down. So that later when. When he turned it down, it was consistent. Like, you weren't surprised that he turned it down. And there were several things like that. I felt like they did a good job telling us who he was early on. That paid off later, and to me, I thought were very satisfying ways, because I've been thinking a lot about that of, like we've talked about, character is. You know, you don't just develop characters. You develop character based on the actions that they take.

Yeah.

And so there are all these early actions that he took that made him seem kind of like this schmuck, you know, that made him, you know, the hero later in the story. So anyway, I didn't know that was just the biggest thing. I felt like there were several, you know, I'm, you know, I'm story gridding thing. Like even the transferring to the new world was them like getting in the car and leaving town, you know.

Oh, yeah. And it was.

And then coming back with the gift, you know, was very clear at the end.

Yeah. And it was. It was a buddy romance love story too. So there were multiple. Oh yeah, there were multiple genres at play. It was.

What would you say was the main genre?

I would say it was revelation maturation plot for both characters. So it was a heroic journey where the mook Italian guy from the Bronx with a code of honor that was family based was antithetical to his prejudice and racism at the beginning of the story. So as you said, the way the creators and the writers established sympathy and empathy for the racial. The racist guy was a racist right at the beginning of the story.

Well, he threw those cups away.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was just.

It was. I thought it was cool that they didn't have him just like say a bunch of racist stuff, you know what I mean? Like, because they established it in these cut. Right. But these other subtle ways of like. Yeah, right.

And that, that was a really wonderful theme and it was a good. It was a really good story for contemporary life. Right. So one of the principles about doing sort of historical stories is that the only reason to use a historical setting is to mirror contemporary life. So you don't just throw something in a. In a time period just because you like the time period. You choose stories of a particular time period that reflect what's going on in contemporary society. So for me, when the Viggo Morgenson character, his actions are outwardly noble and quote unquote, family oriented and good, meaning he doesn't use racial slurs. He doesn't, you know, he uses the power of his fists to maintain order in a disorderly society.

But just because he seemingly seems like a principled and good person, deep down, he's unenlightened and childish. To believe that he has any superiority to another human being based upon any criteria other than personal experience is crazy. It's ridiculous. And I think that's part of the movement today, the political movement, to get. I don't like the term so much because it makes me uncomfortable. But I think that's why they have the term white privilege. Right. White privilege is a buzz phrase today that is forcing people who are white to think about their world in a different way. So that's exactly what the Viggo Morgenson character had to do. He didn't, like, yell at the guys who came to fix his dishwasher because they were black. He just sort of was reasonably pleasant, polite. But deep down, he was a racist. And that's why the scene where he's throwing away the glasses that they drank from. Meanwhile, his wife was not a racist. Yeah, so that was another great element, is that he fell in love with a woman who wasn't a racist. So that says something good about him, that he recognizes truth and love and beauty in others. He just hasn't recognized it in himself yet. And so what was required for him was to meet and to live with and to hang out with a person who is of a much higher intellectual capacity and cultural intelligence than he is, which was the classical jazz piano player. Anyway, I thought the story was really wonderful on many levels. And then the controversy at the Oscars was that Spike Lee took great offense that it was praised and became the best picture of the year. And I was thinking about that, and I could totally see his point now because his point was, you know, this was a movie that celebrates white people. This is a movie that celebrates white people who see the dignity in black people. And, you know, haven't we had enough of those movies? Haven't we had enough? I think he said something like. And he made a really good point. You know, it was just Driving Miss Daisy, except they changed the color of the driver. And I think he made a really good point there because it's all about the way person discovering, you know, just how wonderful black people are. And I think he has a really good point. You know, haven't we established that story so many times that it makes white people feel good? Like, oh, I'm not a racist, so therefore, I can really enjoy this movie watching, you know, this racist white guy discover, you know, the way I live and how great I am. Yeah, it's a tough one because I think it was a really entertaining movie. I don't think it was in any way representing untruths about, you know what? I can't even say that because I'm not a black person. Right? So I can't. I have no experience being able to say whether or not the white filmmaker got it right directing the black actors. Because I can only hope that the. And I think this is true, that if the white director wasn't establishing the story in an appropriate way that the black actors would have told him and judging by the guy who played the lead, I think his name is Marshall Ali. He's a great actor.

Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

I don't think that guy would let anything get by without commenting on it if it was offensive. So. But I think, you know, you. You look at that movie and then you look at Black Klansman, right? So blackkklansman was a story about racism by Spike Lee, and the hero of the story was a black man pretending to be a white man. I mean, it was. It was a brilliant movie too. And, you know, I kind of. I'm gonna have to come down on Spike Lee side here and say, you know what? I think blackkklansman was a more important movie. And you can't really judge what's the best picture anyway. So in terms of, you know, let's support stuff that's difficult to get made because it's from different voices and appreciate blackkklansmen as opposed to the Green book. I agree with Spike Lee, but it's really a difficult political moment because. But it's also a great moment too, because what stories do, and this is a great example of it, they make us think about things, they make us consider our worldviews and whether or not we are seeing the world in the way that is the best for us individually and for everyone collectively. So, you know, I think both movies were very interesting to come out at this time because the country is struggling with what it means, what is even race. I mean, it's kind of a made up scientific term to begin with. And how are we going to try and live together in a way that we can respect everybody's worldview anyway?

Yeah, no, I mean, it's good. It's interesting, I mean, to continue talking about this. You know, we've been in Nashville now for almost four years, so both of my kids now, most of their memories are from this place. And we live in the city and so very diverse, very progressive city. You know, it's the only county in Tennessee that went blue. And it's interesting because Max, so Connor is my older one, he's 13. So I've had a lot more talks with him about racism. And when I was homeschooling him, like, we did a whole thing on Martin Luther King and he always just thought it was so weird. But then Max would watch the Green Book with this and his brain was broken by the fact that people wouldn't like somebody just because, you know, weren't the same color as them. Like, he thought that it wasn't just he thought it was wrong. He also just thought it was weird.

Right.

You know, and I'm like, well, there's progress.

Yeah.

Of, like, it had never crossed his mind that anybody would want to do that. And, like, we've talked about it and stuff, so he understands that racism exists, but we've never. It's always been this kind of intellectual conversation where we're talking about it. He's never experienced this, like, a story about it. And that was one of the realizations I had, is I probably haven't exposed him to enough history for him to understand, but he watched the Green Book and was like, I don't under. Like, we kept having to stop and explain why people would act that way, you know.

And it was just really interesting because it allowed us to have to. Your point about, you know, stories in this way are very important, is it opened up these conversations that we haven't had before because, you know, we kind of raise him in this way where, you know, it's never a question, but. Yeah. So I feel like in that way, it was a good thing for us to look at it because he had no category for why people would act that way. You know, when they were down in the South. Like, he. Especially the part where they wouldn't let him use the restroom.

Oh.

You know, he's like, why? And we're like, well, we're, like, trying to explain it, but it's like, there's no good reason. Right. So how do you explain. So we're like, this is. He's like, I just don't understand. I'm like, good. Just. You don't understand, and that's fine, you know. Yeah.

Well, that's called progress. And oftentimes we forget where. I mean, that's why I thought the Green Book was a really important movie, because it did. That wasn't so long ago. That was when I was growing up. You know, I grew up in Pittsburgh, and, you know, there were clearly defined areas where people lived. Where I grew up, they called it the. The City of a Thousand Towns. And it was so provincial that there were certain places within the city that you just didn't travel. And I don't think it's that way anymore. At least I hope it isn't. But it wasn't just in the South. It was in, you know, northeastern industrial cities. And my father was in the steelworkers union. And the steelworkers union had these sort of, you know, different distinctions, too. And that was in the 1970s in Pittsburgh. So we're really just at the beginning of metabolizing a really horrific cultural nightmare. And so that's why there's so much tension and there should be tension. And as you say, I think it is the stories that allow us to see someone else's other point of view. Right? So that's the beauty of it, is that human beings automatically empathize and sympathize with heroes and protagonists in stories. So to Spike Lee's point, why can't we have more films written by people who don't get opportunities to show their stories and put them in the places of the hero? Because that's important. So that white people can see the world through the prism of another person of a different color or a different nationality or different sexual prevalence or whatever. And he's got a really great point there, because why don't we use the power of story to affect change? Because I can say it's not reasonable, it's not rational, everything's ridiculous about these categories of human beings that are based on nothing other than prejudice and tribalism. I can say that until I'm blue in the face. But tell me a great story, like something like Lilies of the Field with Sidney Poitier. Right? I remember seeing that when I was a little boy, and I was like, oh, my gosh, imagine that. Imagine, you know, what it's like to have a different color skin. Or in the Heat of the Night, another Sidney Poitier movie. I mean, think about these great movie stars like Sidney Poitier. This guy was an amazing movie star, and he was a black guy, and all the stories that featured him changed the points of view of little boys like me because they're like, oh, my gosh, that guy's incredible. And it has nothing to do with his skin color. He's a hero. We saw stories through his eyes, and that allows us to empathize and sympathize with our fellow human beings. So it just states more how important it is to tell a really good story and to really think through your choice as a protagonist. And, you know, that's the beauty of story, is that no one, no one cares who the protagonist is if it's a great story. You know, it's just really that it's this deep reminder of who we are. We're all in this together, and we better learn how to deal with each other and love each other equally, or we're in trouble, you know? Yeah.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Story Grid podcast. For everything StoryGrid related, check out storygrid.com make sure you pick up a copy of the book and sign up for the newsletter so you don't miss anything happening in the Story Grid universe. If you'd like to check out the show notes for this episode or any past episodes, all of that can be found@storygrid.com podcast if you would like to reach out to us, you can find us on Twitter torygrid. Lastly, if you would like to support the show, you can do that by telling another author about the show and by visiting us on Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating and review. Thanks for subscribing and being a part of our work here at Story Grid. We will see you next week.