Crafting a Great Ending

Hello, and welcome to the StoryGrid podcast. This is a show dedicated to helping you become a better writer. I'm your host, Tim Grall, and I am a struggling writer trying to figure out how to tell a story that works. Joining me shortly is Sean Coyne. He is the creator of StoryGrid, the author of the book StoryGrid, and an editor with over 25 years experience. In this episode, we get to actually dive into the things that I've written over the last week or so. So if you've been listening along, you know that I've been really blocked on the book, and I finally made some progress and had some actual scenes and words to send Sean to look at. So we get to talk through those and talk through kind of some of the decisions I've made and where I'm going next. So it was at least a fun episode for me, but hopefully you'll get something out of it as well. So let's jump in and get started. So, Sean, I finally was able to break through my block because we talked through it a couple weeks ago. I did the outline, and then I started writing again. And it was nice because where I started was a few scenes or a couple scenes that you had already liked on the first draft. So I just had to add some things that you had suggested and we talked about, well, like a year ago now. And then I just kept going basically as fast as I could. Like, anytime I got stuck, I would just be like, just make a decision and write it down. And so I sent you, I think about 7,000 words. And I sent you, like, the end of the middle, build into the beginning of the ending, payoff into kind of the final battle. And I'm realizing as I go, because you said something a few weeks ago where, like, I just have a lot of work to do on the world itself and, like, making it much more clear what it is. And so I've just kind of embraced that. It's going to be vague, and I'm just trying to get the story moments happening the right way in the right order. And then later, once I, you know, ground the world and I'm using air quotes here, reality much more, then I'll be able to go back through and kind of make some decisions about what it looks like and what's happening around them. But I'm just trying to get the story set now. So sent that to you. What are your thoughts?

I think it's absolutely on the mark. You know, there are some suggestions that I would make in another round of draft. But all in all, I think your decisions to just keep moving forward, make a decision, no matter what it is, it's absolutely the right one. And there's real narrative velocity in this series of scenes. And I think, all in all, it's in pretty good shape. And I like the way you've sort of set up the severing and how, you know, Az and Craig are the ones who actually save her in that moment.

Oh, you mean the threshing, like at the beginning of the threshing?

Yes, exactly. I think the idea of the swarm is fantastic, because what I think you're doing here is to. What I like about it is that what you say is that the threshing each year is. Is almost like a simulation of the calamity that caused the dystopia in the first place. And each of these threshings is a new sort of take on the catastrophic calamity. So I think that's really good. It was a really good idea because what you can do is, is provide backstory in the actual front story. I know you probably didn't think of that, but it's a really innovative idea. So what I mean by that is that a lot of times it's difficult to express, especially in science fiction and fantasy, how the world got to where it is. So, for example, in Cormac McCarthy's novel the Road, we never really get the answer to that question. Now, I think it's a brilliant novel, but it's one of the things that I felt a little like, oh, man, I really wish I understood more clearly what actually happened to bring Dystopia about. So your idea that the threshing is another simulation of the catastrophic event that destroyed the ability of humanity to feed itself, it's really good, because then you're putting the reader. You're flashing back while you're. You're moving forward. So the idea that there is this field of crops, the sun is beating down, and then on top of that, there's a swarm of locusts or, you know, some sort of hybrid, you know, flying insect that devours crops coming down is great. I mean, I felt like it was really terrifying. And the fact that Jesse succumbs to these bugs, I mean, bugs are one of those things. For me, personally, I just hate bugs. And anything that stings me, because I. For whatever reason, I'm a mosquito magnet. So my legs all summer are just riddled with bites. So, anyway, I love that. And I think it also dramatizes the ending. Ending payoff, which is that, holy cow. We don't want to go back to the way it was, because the way it was was horrifying. And so if you're threshing, if the big payoff of your entire novel is, is the event that caused the cataclysm that brought the dystopia, that's a really great idea. And I don't think the reader is going to see that coming. I certainly.

Sorry. Say that again when you have the.

Threshing mirror, the cataclysmic event that caused the dystopia in the first place. I think that works so well because I don't think the reader is going to see that coming.

Okay.

Especially with the Severings, which are very much, let's say they're inspired by the Hunger Games, right? And they're different than the Hunger Games, but they're inspired by them, and there's no reason to run away from that truth. So what you don't want the reader to think. And this is what they will think, oh, I hope the threshing isn't just another, you know, reiteration of the Hunger Games. And I think you've solved that problem by. Because it only makes sense, right. If we were going to protect ourselves from an event that caused a great problem. I'm sorry to go a little bit strange here, but there's a phrase in the military and that's we're always fighting the previous war, right? So when we fought the Vietnam War, we thought that if we use the tactics and strategies that were successful in World War II, that everything would work out fine. So in your novel, what I believe the threshings have become are a means by which the reapers, who are the powers that be that are off stage, and they should remain off stage in this first novel. So the reapers are basically re fighting, recalibrating the exact sort of world that created the dystopia. And it makes sense, right? So what they're doing is they're finding the smartest people and the brightest warriors, and they're sticking them in the same problem that caused the dystopia to begin with. And the reason why they're doing that is they are breeding the new leadership. I know I'm explaining to you how your own novel works, but I think you stumbled onto something that's really interesting here, because one of the things that was, I wouldn't say disappointing, but was a little bit unclear was why there were Hunger Games to begin with in the Hunger Games series. Now I know to criticize the Hunger Games is a really stupid idea because it's extremely successful and a wonderful trilogy of novels.

Well, the way it was presented in the book, just to jump in, because I'm sure people are screaming at the recording right now. Right. Is it was a way of keeping control over people and reminding them basically, who has the power and what will happen if you fight the Capitol or the government. So there was basically the. The myth was there was an uprising, and they put the uprising down. And so basically, each year they have to offer a sacrifice of their children as penance for what happened.

No, I understand. I understand that. I'm not criticizing that setup. It absolutely works, and it's fantastic. But the problem that you face is you don't want people to look at your novel and go, oh, it's just a ripoff of the Hunger Games. He just used the same thematic structure as Suzanne Collins did, and it's not different. So if you like the Hunger Games, yeah, you'll like his book, but it's not as good as the Hunger Games because he didn't innovate the genre at all. Right now, I'm talking in a very meta editorial vision here. So I will say it's absolutely fine to be inspired by a masterwork like the Hunger Games and to write a similar story that doesn't have a thematic innovation in any way. So don't feel like, oh, Shawn says, I can't do this because I'm not taking it up to another level. But my point for you, Tim, is that I think you stumbled upon an opportunity here that refreshes the notion of the difficult nature of power, of control, of keeping a society intact with the least possible harm. Right. Because the great difficulty in structured society is the balance between order and creative innovation. So generally in Western society since the Enlightenment, the equation that we believe works best. When I say we, I'm saying people who believe in sort of the fundamental principles of Western democracy and with its mixture of capitalism thrown in there. Not that it's perfect in any way, shape, or form. It's not perfect at all. But the way it sort of works is that the order is such that laws are enacted in order to protect the individual. Because in Western society, it is believed generally as a general moral principle that the individual is unique and important, and every individual has specific gifts that should be encouraged to come out of them. So the individual ingenuity is extremely valued in Western cultures. And the trick is, is to make society work for everyone at the least possible harm to the individual, so that individuals will be able to have the opportunity to release their individual genius in such a way that it helps refresh and revitalize the global society. So what we want are opportunities for as many individuals as possible to be able to release their inner gifts so that the order can be refreshed. So in your novel, it seems to me that that ethos is what's driving the Reapers. And the reason why I think that's true is that with your decision to have the Threshing be a new simulation of a catastrophe that caused the problems in the first place, the way the Reapers set up that threshing idea was to find the individual geniuses capable of rising above the cataclysm with their unique gifts. And if you find those individuals, they will refresh the order and make things better for society in general. So the ironic or the paradoxical element of your novel is that the Reapers set up the Threshing to find people exactly like Jesse. So when Jesse wins this thing, it's almost as if the Reapers. Their plan worked, right? Because what the Reapers really want is to get rid of people like Marcus, but they don't want to forcibly get rid of Marcus. They want individuals within Marcus's society to take him down with their own inner geniuses. So I think thematically, you've got a really nice thing going here. And, you know, on the next draft, when we're doing a polish, I would only suggest to make this sort of clear and have it be like a revelatory turning point in a much bigger way. Now, right now, it is a revelatory turning point, because I believe 61. What's his name in real life in the story? Harry. Harry. Okay. So Harry explains to her, okay, this is the way the Threshing is set up. It's just like what happened, only different.

Right, right.

And so he reviews the previous threshings. It's all about X. It's all about what happened. So the fact that Randy has been imprisoned by Marcus is good, too, because the Reapers, they're not going to intervene with the way Marcus runs the American faction because they're sort of like, that's not the way the Reapers look at the whole threshing situation, is that they have four or five factions around the world. Each faction is allowed to rule their faction the way they want. And each year, they. Or every four years, they have this threshing thing. And that's when the new leaders rise, and the winner of the Threshing becomes, you know, the new faction leader. And the fact that Marcus suppressed. I mean, I think Marcus has to be. This might be a note to take. Marcus has to have won the threshing before Randy, something like that.

Yeah. Well, my thought was that his whole thing is once he had the power, he's trying to retain it.

Yes.

And so that's why he imprisoned Randy and then that's why he's going to get rid of Jesse. And yeah, that was my thinking there. My thinking on, you know, one of the things we talked about a while back that has just been kind of in my head that will be work to do after this draft is basically when we figured out that that food is driving the whole thing. Remember that where they're all working.

That will become the metaphor through the entire thing. So however I re envision the world, everything will be wrapped around this idea of food and farming. And so that's why I had the thought of. I was also thinking this is where the reminder where they've come from is the threshing.

Yeah.

So this is what we're saving you from. This is where you would be without us. And so, yeah, the thought of like rotating leadership, but Marcus has been circumventing that. And so, I don't know, I haven't thought completely through it, but that's why I'm starting to, like, put these farming kind of references in there. And that's why I thought the threshing should be a reminder of what happened. And the other. I can't remember if I mentioned this before because I've just been stuck on what the threshing should be. And my kids are like. I think like a huge majority of kids in the United States right now are obsessed with Fortnite.

Right.

That video game. And so I was thinking about, like, actually my kids were asking me, like, why do you think Fortnite got so popular as opposed to other online multiplayer video games? And there was lots of thoughts to it, but, you know, everybody has an opinion on it. But one of the innovative things they did was the way that they forced people towards each other. Right. So when the game starts, they're on this island, but then there's this ever shrinking storm that you have to stay inside or you'll die. But what that means is it's forcing all the players together to fight.

Wow.

And so I thought, what if I had something that was like constantly forcing them together? And it would also drive the velocity of the story. Because the thing about the Hunger Games is it takes place over a longer period of the book. Right. So there's lots of downtime.

Right.

While she's in the Hunger Games. And mine won't have that because it's just a short period of time, which means this needs to be, you know, the heightened action part of the book, right?

Yes.

So I thought having that will force them to not be able to rest. Like, they'll have to constantly keep moving because there's both. But now they're dealing with the fact that they're moving away from something that will kill them, but they're also moving towards other people that will try to kill them. Yes. And then I thought, okay, what powers has she picked up along this story that will give her an edge? And I thought, oh, she understands the numbered.

Yep.

So that's where, at the end, I kept going. But I think the scene I sent you ended with her realizing that.

Yes.

So they're going to be able to move around in the sunlight easier than everybody else because she figured that out by working with the numbered. So that's great. Yeah, that's great.

That's another really important element because as I was saying a couple of weeks ago to someone, your beginning hook and your ending payoff need to sort of rhyme. I might have said mirror, but I meant rhyme. And what I mean by that is that the character at the beginning of the novel, in the beginning, hook, has to transform and be more active and heroic at the ending payoff. But if you can bring in elements that rhyme back to where she was before, that's wonderful because it allows the reader to go, oh, that's right. So they tumble back in time to the moments that you have written about her time as a number. Which also is thematically really good because Jesse thinks about the forgotten ones, the people who are being abused by the system. And it's by her identification with the numbered that she will win this damn thing. Which is great, because thematically, it says, don't forget the geniuses of the people who are in the underclass. Right. So thematically, that's saying to this big cultural society, if you believe in the sanctity of the individual as the prime motivator of making a better world, then you cannot keep the underclass down. Because when you do not provide the underclass the opportunities that the other parts of society get, you are missing out on probably the finest brains and minds. So, you know, this is the very difficult world we're navigating now in real life is there's some very strong figures among the traditional people who have been cast out of opportunity in our country, and they are rising and saying, this is not cool. We all need equal opportunities. Now, the problem, you know, can come in, and maybe this is in book two or book three, is that you cannot confuse equal opportunity and say equal outcome, because equal outcome, it's almost the Ayn Randian dystopia where you disincentivize people who have real skills from pursuing them to their nth degree, because if they do, then they're just, you know, whatever they win, it's taken away and given to people who are not, know, working hard. But the key here is that I think what you're doing now is starting to really coalesce into an innovative story that people who love the Hunger Games will enjoy. But also it has another message. It's not just Suzanne Collins, you know, first, for lack of a better phrase, rehash. Yeah. So, anyway, I think I'm so glad that you got out of that block and whatever you did to get these 7,000 words, I would just encourage you to keep going on. I think the setup for this threshing is really terrific. It rhymes a lot of the stuff that you've already done in the Severings and also with the numbered. Jesse's between a rock and a hard place. We don't know how much she believes Randy, because you have a scene in there where Randy says to her, you know, after you win the threshing, make sure you murder Marcus, because then you and I will rule the faction and everything will be great. And we don't know really how Jesse feels about that directive yet, and we don't know what she's going to do, which is great.

Yeah. I tried to thread the needle of, like, her agreeing but not actually agreeing.

I think he did it really well because she. It's almost like she has to accept her brother for his limitations at this point. And that's what a mature person does. Right? And I think she's reached a level of maturity in that scene where, you know, part of her wants to be like, no, we can't do that. I'm not going to murder that guy. What are you crazy? And she has to recognize that, oh, my God, my poor brother has been incarcerated. His body's falling apart. He's not his best self. Right now. He's asking me to do something that is against my ethical and moral, you know, belief system. But he's my brother, and I love him, and I need to. This is the last moment I'm probably ever going to see this guy. So do I want to get into an argument about whether or not I'm going to murder President Marcus, right now? No, I'm going to go and I'm going to give him a hug, and I'm going to spend as many nice moments with him as I can before they take him away. And I think that works. And I think the reader is not going to know what decision she's made, but her reaction to his edict in order for her to do this deed is mature. It's not childish. It's not argumentative. It's sort of like, well, we'll see what I'm gonna do. But, you know, I love you anyway. And this is terrible. This is just not cool. It's not good. It makes me sad. I don't like the way the world is, but I will continue anyway. So it was a nice scene. I think it works. And it's also a way of dumping a lot of exposition in a scene between a brother and a sister that it's a goodbye scene, sort of. It's a scene where, you know, you have to say, goodbye, brother. I'm leaving the chances that we'll ever see each other again. It's like when you leave for college and you leave your little sister or your little brother home, and they know. They know you're never really coming back. You're not coming back the way you were. Right. And these are the moments in our lives where we intuitively know something is ending. And it's extremely painful. So when we leave for college or we leave for our first job, or these are, for lack of a better word, these are kind of like death moments. Because a part of our lives are ending. It's dying. We are no longer the fun big brother who will run around the playground with you. We're now becoming an adult. And when we become adults, we all change and grow in different ways. And when we have to say goodbye to people in those moments, it's extremely difficult to understand.

That we feel such emotional sorrow and sadness. And I see that scene as that moment for Jesse and Randy. She always looked up to her brother. Her brother was God to her. She wanted to be just like Randy. And now she's realizing, holy cow, I do not want to be like Randy. I love him, but he's not who I want to be.

What I've been thinking a lot about, too, like, when somebody's been gone a long time, you tend to either forget the good parts or the bad parts.

And especially, I think when somebody dies, you have this temptation, especially if there's somebody you. You cared about, to kind of sweep away all the bad and just leave the good. Like, I've seen a couple people in my life do this in recent years where it's like all of a sudden, it's like this person that had a lot of gray in their life is now idolized because they died. And so I think about between her age and what happened, you know, around the time, you know, what would have happened is that Randy would have become this perfect shining beacon with no gray, only, you know, only good that would fix everything if somehow he could come back. And so I think having the final stage of her maturity is letting that go and realizing in the book, of course, she's not going to do what he asks. She's going to do something much worse, but she's not going to do what he wants because she's realizing that he has major flaws. And so that's where I think too. I've thought a lot too, of like. So I heard this myth, like this just story of. So this is going to take a minute here. So where, you know, once upon a time, there was this man that lived up north where it was snowy and cold for most of the year. And he discovered fire. And it was the first time anybody had discovered fire. And so he started traveling and he would go to a village and he would show them fire so that they could stay warm, so they could cook year round, you know, all this kind of stuff. And he never wanted anything. He just would take them fire. And then once they knew it, he would move on to the next village. Well, eventually he comes to a village that has an established ruling religious class. And when they see that people are using the fire instead of looking to the religious people for their source of comfort and hope, they get afraid. And so what they do is they go out and they kill the guy that brought them fire because too many people were paying attention to him instead of paying attention to them. But then they get afraid because they realize all these people are going to get really pissed at us that we just killed this guy that brought us fire. So what they do is they make a place to honor him. So they put up like a carving of him and like candles and, you know, a little like, shrine to him. And they start talking about. About what an amazing man this guy was that brought us fire. And then once again, they have their power back because now they are the ones talking about how important this was, and people are looking to them again the way they wanted it.

Right?

And so I heard this not too long ago. And so I've been thinking about that for the rewrite of this. Of basically Randy being that person in this society.

So Marcus was terrified of what Randy was able to do. So he put him in chains, basically. But then he knew he'd be facing questions of what happened. And so he set him up as somebody to be revered and worshiped the faction as a way to maintain his control. So I was thinking, not only will he be idolized by Jesse throughout the book, he will be idolized by everybody in society because that's the way Marcus maintained power when he was supposed to give it up.

It's good. It works. And I think it also provides motivation for Jesse not wanting to go to the Capitol because she doesn't feel able to live up to that legacy. So the way she hides is to, you know, do underhanded things. She's sort of like, I'm not my brother, I'll never be my brother, blah, blah, blah. So that's why she goes to the numbered, because she's terrified of taking up her brother's legacy. So I think that's a really good add on to the story. And then the reveal that the brother is, you know, he's just overwhelmed with. And who wouldn't be? You know, he's over overwhelmed with resentment and anger, and all he wants is revenge. And for her to witness that, she would take pity on that because it only makes sense that he would feel that way. I think that's a really, really solid, strong element. I mean, the only thing is that we know we're gonna know the minute you hold this guy up as the martyr that he's definitely not dead. But I think that's okay. I mean, somebody who's familiar with the genre is probably gonna know that, but it's okay because we also know that it's gonna end relatively well for Jesse because. Well, actually, if it's a trilogy, you know, I mean, like, a lot of people avoid quote, unquote, setting up those conventions because they're see through. But the thing is, is that they're a convention for a reason. And that's sort of as long as it. I think it'll work. And I think if you weren't to do that because you were afraid of cliche or upsetting the genre reader, it would be a big mistake. So forget I even said anything about it.

Well, I was. I started thinking, like, how many stories where the hero is stepping into an environment where people know who they are before they get there? There's Harry Potter.

Yeah.

There's Luke Skywalker.

There's the Matrix.

Yeah. Well, was he Known beforehand. Like, yeah, he was the one.

You know, it's member and the reason why.

Oh, I guess. Yeah, I guess I'm thinking as far as, like, family ties.

Oh, right, right.

So the family went before. So Harry's parents were the ones that defeated Voldemort or. Well, please don't crucify me for how I just put that. All the Harry Potter fans that. And, you know, Luke's father was a Jedi Knight. And then was thinking, was it Ender's family and Ender's Game involved somehow before him. I know his brother, like, got kicked out of the program. It's been a while since I've read it.

Yeah. I don't remember.

Anyway, I was thinking having some kind of, like, family legacy that she's stepping into.

Well, Shakespeare did it and Henry iv, so I think it's a pretty.

And Henry V and. Yeah. So, Yeah, I think that's absolutely a good approach and. Okay. Because it's an archetypical problem. Right. When you have brothers and sisters and you're younger or, you know, or you're older and you're always the, you know, the family mess up, then, you know, the roles that you take within your family are archetypical, and people can immediately attach to a character who has to deal with those kinds of problems. So really clarifying in that and making that crystal clear is a good idea.

Okay. Yeah. Because I watched the new movie the Clock in the Walls, or the house with the clock in the walls or something like that.

Yeah.

And the beginning, the inciting incident was the kid's family. His parents had died and he was sent off to live with an uncle. I was like, how many times? Like, that's the setup of every single. Like, kids, you know, Harry Potter is one, but another one would be like, the Limine Snicket series was. That was the same setup. You know, it's like, it's always their parents died and they get sent off somewhere interesting, you know, So I was thinking having the setup of family involvement a little bit more entrenched. And I've been thinking a lot since we've talked about all this stuff about power, about Marcus's grip on power. And so then when I had heard this story a long time ago, and then a friend brought it up the other day about the fire, I was like, oh, that's interesting. That would be an interesting way to tie all of that back together.

They're myths for a reason.

They happen over and over and over again. That's why they become myths. Myths are sort of true historical events that repeat themselves thematically. They're boiled down story to their essence. So when people say, oh, it's just some myth, well, you know, myths are deeply truthful human stories. So whenever you get stuck, it's always a good idea to think of the myths of your childhood to go, and the great thing about myth is that they're cross cultural. So, you know, the Mesopotamian myths are similar to the Egyptian myths, which are similar to Judeo Christian beliefs and myths. And I'm sorry to say myths there. I. I meant stories. But, you know, all of them boiled down to these. I mean, this is Jung's work. I mean, he read so many myths and then constructed the hero's journey, which is the myth of all myths. It's the monomyth. And he constructed the hero's journey from. From all these different cultural stories. So whenever you get stuck writing something, asking people, what's your favorite Grimm's fairy tale? What's your favorite myth? Do you have a favorite Greek hero? And then just listen to the way they tell the story and then see if you can reconfigure your story to thematically follow the. That mythic structure. So using multiple myths as almost subplot is a really good idea. And then having the confrontation between brother and sister in this penultimate moment right before the threshing, that works. You know, it's a way of getting exposition and setting up what this threshing is going to be like and what she has to do and keep it within a core mythic story that people are used to hearing and are interested in hearing and is repeated over and over again. So I think you really stumbled on to something there, too, is thinking about, well, what's a really great myth that I can mangle for my own purposes?

Right.

Well, and as you say that, I think about, you know, Steve Pressfield's authentic swing when he walks through the writing of the legend of Bagger Vance based on the. I can never say it, the bag of Vida, that thing, you know, and how. I mean, I forget exactly how he put it, but at one point in the book, he's basically like, I'm going to completely rip this off. Like, you know, and I was like, I'll say, oh, man, that's the first time that. Yeah, well, when I read it, it was the first time I'd heard or read an author just be very straightforward about what they were setting out to do.

Yeah, yeah.

So, okay, well, I mean, it sounds like I should just keep going then.

Yeah, yeah. You're on track.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Story Grid podcast. For everything StoryGrid related, check out storygrid.com make sure you pick up a copy of the book and sign up for the newsletter so you don't miss anything happening in the StoryGrid universe. If you'd like to check out the show notes for this episode or any past episodes, all of that can be found@storygrid.com podcast if you would like to reach out to us, you can find us on Twitter torygrid. Lastly, if you would like to support the show, you can do that by telling another author about the show and by visiting us on Apple Podcast and leaving a rating and review. Thanks for subscribing and being a part of our work here at StoryGrid. We will see you next week.